This is no better than Nehemiah quoting and bolding biblical text in response to a question. I'll ask one more time, Polite - because you dishonor us both by simply avoiding the answer. Let me ask you this way: Do you believe apostates from Islam should be put to death, for having left the religion? I'd ask the same thing of anyone else, and I would hope I'd be given the respect to be asked directly a question of concern.
It is good you are glad to be a Muslim. Everyone should be so lucky and have the right to willingly and voluntarily choose to belong to a religion - even it is is not Islam. Arguing with some Muslims is like arguing with fans of a sports team. They are 100% behind their team and will make some outrageous comments and twist logic just to keep up that 100% support even when in their heart of hearts they know better. p.s. LAKERS RULE!!!
Hi northpointaiki, I agree with what you said, but you have to apply your rule on here as well. I have a history with some people here on DP, and as you said: the context of history must be considered. Likewise, the context of any post must be considered, too. When I said: "It is the rabbis who were violating the rules." I didn't mean all of them. I said it withen a context and the context explain them as those who got angry from prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. Best wishes.
Hopefully brother Nehemiah will be guided to the truth. I understand why he doesn't accept the so called logic that push him to say: "nothing exploded magically creating everything". How can a person of mind accept such logic? Of course, when someone is withen 2 choices both of them don't make sense, he would choose the nearest to sense in his point of view. May Allah guide Nehemiah to the Truth. It depends,
Alsalam Alikum Polite Teen and all, I hope you do not mind me being a guest in your thread, as I read some questions about the law of apostasy in Islam, about which I would like to share my little knowledge, before I start, I would like to mention that while other religions have burning, and killing for those who reject them, Islam have rights for non-Muslims, this been very clear in the holy Qur'an, the true, and undoubted God's word, which so many been trying without any success to find one single error in it since 1400 years till now, it also been clear in the prophet Mohammad pbuh sayings and actions (Hadith), one major right of these, is the freedom of religion and belief, since there is a very basic, and essential rule in Islam, that there is no compulsion in religion, the majority of who entered Islam, entered it willingly: this been proved many times, proofs are many, they are not our topic here, but I will be more than happy to provide them to anybody who wants to know them, I also challenge anybody here, to prove that Islam been spread by sword or by forcing. why does the Qur'an teaches us that there is no compulsion in religion? for a very simple reason, beliefs, or faith, can never be forced, it is something in the heart, if there was a danger, or risk in declaring a belief, it will be hid, but not deleted, until this danger is gone, example is the so many reverts to Islam in West right now who fear the ill treatment of their communities if they declared their beliefs. another example from history, many Muslims countries been invaded many times, and conquered, and occupied, and later liberated, but during all these times, Muslims stayed Muslims, in some cases Muslims been prohibited from practicing their religion, take for example the Soviet Union, where Islam been prohibited, but at the end, it was the Soviet Union who seized to exist, and Islam there became stronger than before they prohibit it. so if Muslims are Muslims cos they will be put to death if they rejected Islam, why they did not take the chance when one of these invaders came, and converted? it would have pleased the invaders so much even God has left this to people to decide as it says in Qur'an despite he can make them all believers, so how can Muslims force them, to enter, or to leave Islam, or to believe in something, or to not believe in it? there is also nothing in Qur'an that tells Muslims to kill those who decide to leave Islam, in the contrary, it states clearly, that the messenger mission, is to deliver the message only: and in this verse, it also shows clearly, the the choice is yours, and is given freely: and ask yourself while reading this following verse, how can they believe, then reject, then believe again? then reject again? if they do not have the full freedom to do so? so, in one sentence, apostasy has no punishment in Islam, because Islam unlike other beliefs and religions who say something and do the opposite - gives the freedom of belief to all people, whether they are Muslims or not. that does not mean that there have not been some cases in history, where apostasies been killed, but looking at them in the time context as someone suggested here, you will find, that apostasy was not the reason for them to be killed, so get your example, put it in the time context, and what was going on then, then you will find out yourself, if you need help, just post the incident, and I will be glad to help you.
So, we have imad on record saying that under Sharia law when a Muslim man decides to change religions and become a christian, there should be no punishment. I am pleased that is your understanding of Islam and Allah's desire. Hopefully you will challenge the other Muslims on this forum who do think apostates should be put to death as commanded by Allah.
I was challenging you, not other Muslims on this forum because it was you who said apostasy get killed in Islam, if Muslims here said so, then I must have missed that post, or thread, would appreciate it if you posted a link. but this makes me wonder, let's for example assume that a Muslim said: "heroin is allowed in Islam?" would you just go and run like a dumb posting on forums, saying: "heroin is allowed in Islam?!!!!" without comfirming it from a reliable source, or from reading a book about Islam? if so then.. lol, I would recommend you then to check first, you can ask www.islamonline.net, or www.islamreligion.com
I have no idea if Islam proscribes any punishment for apostates. That is the very reason I ask. Many Muslims on this forum have said that "yes" apostates are to be punished by death, others like you say "no" Muslims who choose to leave the Islamic faith for another should not be punished at all. So, because I get conflicting opinions from Muslims, I am going to continue to ask until I get a better feel for what the average Muslim thinks. I never thought about this issue of apostates (it is just not something I ever even considered that people could be punished for the religion they choose) until I read Muslims talking about it on this forum. It has really given me a bad impression of Islam. If you are right and it is not correct, I am pleased, but at the same time still concerned that so many Muslims seems to believe otherwise. It is only for that reason that I think you would want to disabuse other Muslims of their wrongful interpretation of Islam and the violent and oppressive image it portrays.
@imad imad polite teen has posted a part of quran in the other thread that is as follow can you check in arabic and see if the word men is actually there. since in my opinion this would change the meaning of the sentence completely. do you also see the difference that inserting the word "men" makes? thanks
Imad, I, too, have seen some muslims on the forum agree with the notion that yes, apostates from Islam must be killed, according to the Qu'ran. (I have also seen muslims reject this notion). I must admit I am a bit puzzled - I have read a bit of the commentary on the subject and verses, concurring in the notion of death for apostates. For example:: My understanding is that this verse, among others, have been interpreted by many scholars as justification for the penalty of death in the face of apostasy. I've certainly seen world news stories, from among Islamic theocracies (or states where Islamic law does have a civil/juridical hand), where an individual who converted, had became an apostate, was on trial for his life - with the claimed reason being apostasy. As to muslim members on this forum who do agree with this position, I will only give one example, though I do recall more: Personally, the Bible is replete with crap I can't agree with, either - so this isn't as much about the Qu'ran, for me, a text from the first millenium, rooted in history; my real issue is what goes in the hearts of practicing people today, of whatever faith or belief. If an atheist would wish to kill religious folks out of a belief they are a scourge on the world, I'd have the same issue.
Wa Alykum Assalam wa rahmatullah, brother Imad. You are most welcome, It is kindness from you to say such thing, thank you very much. I should invite you to enlighten my thread with the light God has given you. Hope you all the best. Don't forget to recite surat Alkahf to be enlightened till the next friday.
You do not have to tell me, I very much know why you ask, and this is not because you need an answer.
Thank you for your question pizzaman, between you and someone like browntwn, you show the difference between someone who asks questions to get answers, and a person who asks questions to try to get something else than answers, it is very natural to dislike those who ask questions for something else than answers, I think they even dislike themselves, but those who ask to get answers are showing their interest in learning more and increase their knowledge, Muslims are not only encouraged to answer them if they know the answer but also, it would be considered wrongdoing if they have been left without an answer, unlike what Judaism did in hiding Moses pbuh message to keep others in dark and away from the light of truth, you will find Muslims very willing to answer, if the person have an honest desire in getting answers, to answer your question, the verse you are referring to, is from Surah (chapter) 47 the Surah name is (Muhammad) the word men, have no mention in this verse in Qur'an in its language, Arabic, nor the word turn, that's why, for somebody who truly wants to learn Qur'an, then he should try to learn Arabic, translation will only transfer the meanings and sometimes inaccurately, and it will not give the original image, or idea, because this text is miraculous, no Arabic writer, or poet, since this text been revealed, been able to come with something like it in Arabic, so how would it be in other languages? Arabic before Qur'an, was two types, texts, and poetry, after Qur'an, there was the texts, poetry, and Qur'an as a third new type in Arabic language. the verse is talking about those who disbelieved (never believed before) and also been involved in practices to prevent the message to reach people, or did things to make people afraid from accepting the truth, like torturing those who entered Islam, and threatening those who would talk and meet with Mohammad pbuh and Muslims. the Arabic word says (Saddo) is more like the stand as a wall between people who wants to know the truth, and the truth. I hope this will answer your question, if not, or if I did not understand your question correctly, then please feel free to ask again.
One thing that amazes me, is why do Muslims follow a guy who has had seizures regularly? Half the stuff he wrote probably has an oops moment.
Let me start by the last part of your post, about the bible, and what you described as a text rooted in history, let's say I agree and disagree with you, I agree that the bible has been changed, and it is not the same bible that been revealed to Jesus pbuh, same applies to Torah, it is not the same that been revealed to Moses pbuh, but this does not apply to Qur'an, that been revealed to Mohammad pbuh, and it is not hard to know why, from just reading all of them. a text that asks: "how can a woman own?" is not holy for me. a text that says: "God punished so many kids with death, because they called a prophet baldy" is not holy for me. and I believe most Christians, believe that God is good, and loving, and wants people to do all good things, and say good things, and have good morals, I also believe Christians, or most of them, did not read the bible as a whole, their knowledge in it is just limited to few passages they hear at church, or quoted somewhere, and they did not hear about the human sacrifice, or rape, or murder, or slavery ..etc that is full in the bible, which is again, not the same bible that been revealed by Jesus, Bible writing started about 200 years after Jesus been raised to heavens, from the minds of the people who memorized it or parts of it, much of it been lost in translations, from its original languages, to other languages, and this, does not apply to Qur'an, that been the same, since it been revealed, till now, not even a letter been changed, or removed, or added. regardless, whether it been changed or not, this is not the point here, it just explains, why you find what you described as "replete with crap you can't agree with", and not you only, but also there are some parts that science does not agree with, that new discoveries in the world, do not agree with, and that the mind do not agree with nor the common sense, but, is this the case with Qur'an? Muslims will say no, non-Muslims will say yes, and sometimes without any of them even bother to read the Qur'an. they say, its 1400 old book, and they make an assumption that it would be wrong, or outdated maybe? the question would be then, have you read it? have you understood it? before you make such assumption? being a 1400 years old book, alone, does not make it invalid, or outdated, or wrong, in the contrary, being such an old book, and still included no single error, would add to its credibility, and not reduce from it, but to know whether being an old book is good for Qur'an, or not, we should know, does it include anything that been proven wrong as mankind develop? how can we know without reading and studying it? we won't, that's why Dr. Maurice Bucaille made his study, and wrote his book: The Bible, The Qur'an and Science which I encourage you, and all to read, from which I will quote: as for apostasy, as I mentioned in my earlier post, it has no punishment in Islam, but that does not means there were some cases in which apostates been killed, and this was not for their beliefs, but for other reasons, that should be looked at in the time context. there been some confusion not among normal Muslims only, but also among Muslim scholars, in regard to apostasy, and whether they should be killed or not, in Qur'an, there is nothing that says they should be killed, and the verses I quoted some of them in my earlier post, leave no doubt that Qur'an gives the full freedom of religion, since Qur'an, is the source of laws in Islam, most scholars said, they should not be killed, other scholars, mentioned some cases happened in history, in which some apostates been killed, and they measured on them some cases in which apostates should be killed, some of these been mentioned in Qur'an: this verse speaks about some Christians and Jews, at that time, who entered Islam, and later left Islam, for the sole purpose of planting doubts in the hearts of Muslims, and to help Islam enemies, at a time Islam was partial, and there was a huge need for protection against hypocrites, and at a time Muslims were dealing with wars launched against them by Meccan's. in that case, apostates been killed, but not because of their beliefs, but more likely because they pretended to enter Islam, so they can attack it from inside, and help Islam enemies. much like spies in our times, who pretend to be with a certain country, when they actually attacking it. so, to summarize the above about apostasy, you will find some Muslims that say they should be killed, you will find some Muslims who will say they should not be killed, but you will find all Muslims say there is no compulsion in religion, and person, should be left free to decide which beliefs to hold, and which religion to follow, so the confusion is in the word apostasy, some who say they should be killed, see the word apostasy as a hypocrite, or as a spy in our times, who's only intention is to harm Muslims, and some who say they should not be killed, see the word apostasy as simply somebody who left Islam to another religion or belief. the verse you quoted: who are "they"? the answer is in the previous verse, from the same translation to English you quoted (SHAKIR): they are the hypocrites. who are they hypocrites and what was their relation with Muslims then? they were those who did not accept Islam in their hearts, but pretend to be Muslims, and who maintained relations with Islam enemies at that time, and often helped them against Muslims, and were waiting to see which side would be victorious so they can join later. the verse you posted says, they should be killed, and the verse after, explains why they should be killed, and when they should not be killed. they are fought because they fought Muslims, but if they offered peace, then they should be left alone. and more clearly in the next verse: which also means, if they did not harm you, then do not harm them, no matter what they believe.