Another Child Sacrifices Himself On the Alter Of His Parents Irrationality

The forum looks so much better with ON** on my ignore list.

stOx- Yes, I suppose that's true. And, while not proof debunking religion, that it attracts so many psychos is certainly not a point in its favor.

Btw- how's this for atheist parents harming their children: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/06/faith-schools-jewish-education-atheism

**ON- if you prefer that I don't call you that, tell me in your next post in this thread, which I will read.

 

That's probably the second largest collection of intentional misinterpretations on the Internet... first of course would be the site you used as your source.

Yes i did, and i concluded the guy who wrote it is either a cretin, or deliberately dishonest. Either way he isn't a reliable source.

No, you sign medical waivers for ALL medical procedures because all medical procedures have certain risks associated with them. Well, apart from homeopathy because they only give you plain tap water to drink. What do you treat a sprained ankle with? crystals and a dream catcher?

No, you should forfeit medical treatments because you have an unhealthy distrust of people who dedicate their lives to prolonging yours.

No, i'd go with chemo because it's scientifically proven to greatly increase ones chances of overcoming the disease.

No. Any isolated, anecdotal story you come up is worthless because it's just that, and isolated anecdotal story.

I mean seriously. can you imagine someone presenting this kind of shit as evidence at a drug trial?

I don't need to know what treatment was used, because it's all just water. Whatever your condition is, the homeopath gives you water. Sure they feed you some shit about the magical properties of water and how it has a memory, but you wash that shit down with plain tap water.

Seriously, read up on it. If you want to battle against people selling worthless cures start on those con-men.

You are ungrateful because you assume they are trying to deliberately make you ill.

yeah i'll go sit in a hut made of animal shit chewing on a root and chanting like some fucking primitive... no thanks, i'll take the proven scientific medicine.

 

Still not bringing anything to the table except your own quotes and subtle changes trying to make them look better. I wont waste the words on someone who can't see two sides of an argument, however I particularly enjoyed this quote.

Aside from the imagery which provides real insight into your opinion of all who don't share your views, I love your use of the words "proven scientific medicine" in reference to healing cancer patients. When you put words like that to print, you eliminate any need for me to respond, and for that I thank you.

 

My own quotes stating factually accurate statistical data? pff, what kind of argument is that against your hokus pokus, unsubstantiated claims and anecdotal evidence of isolated cases.

I do see both sides of the argument. I see the right side, mine, and the incorrect side which has nothing to support it, yours. Acknowledging that two sides exist doesn't give them equal credibility.

Eliminate your need to respond, Or eliminate your ability to? It should be apparent to everyone that there is only one argument here backed up by the data, mine. You have presented nothing but your ill-informed opinion and a story about someone you know.... oh, and of course your paranoid ramblings about "big pharma".

Of course the convenient thing about being paranoid is that it gives you an excuse to ignore all the evidence that discredits your argument. After all, the data comes from those evil doctors and scientists, and we all know what they are like!

 

Lol. And the scientists that claimed the earth was flat and the center of the universe were right until those quacks who claimed otherwise turned out to be right. Watching you quote yourself after providing zero facts, and then claim your nonsense is backed by "evidence" is more entertaining than a cripple fight. It makes egging you on all the more worthwhile.

By the by, I had never heard the term "Big Pharma" until reading it in one of your posts. I can see why you would throw them in and idolize them.

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/334/7585/120

Damn, these people sound like what you would aspire to be with money and an education.

 

No "scientist" has ever claimed the earth was flat. In fact, very few people ever believed that. The pseudo-science of a flat earth is a recent phenomenon devised by christians to try and undermine the rational, evidence based thinking of the enlightenment.

I'm starting to think it's inherently impossible for you to say something without being monumentally, and consistently, wrong

yeah, damn, those employees of a company that aren't either scientists or doctors....

 

Wheee!!! And the topic gets changed yet again. So now you are saying the only bad people working for that particular "Big Pharma" company were bad because they weren't scientists or doctors? Or did you miss the quote where the one "Doctor" created purposefully misleading research? How many times do I have to tell you,

"QUIT EATING THE CARDS!"

 

No, i'm saying the particular people you quoted were employees of a company. Sure there are bad people in the industry, like there are in every industry. But to write off medical science as a conspiracy designed to make you eat poison is fatuous at best, and flat out paranoid at worst.

Especially considering you praise the homeopaths who are essentially shysters in lab coats selling vulnerable people tap water at inflated prices.

The doctors didn't create "purposefully misleading research" (i'd be careful making those claims, these people have deep pockets and don't like libelous statements). The research simply could have been conducted better, and should have been. Shame they don't try to cure cancer with tap water like homeopaths do, you don't need clinical trials for tap water because, well, it's just water.

 

Did someone prescribe you water as a cure to an ailment? I only ask because you keep bringing it up and I never did. Hmmm... assumption? Maybe something you read? I'm thinking in your case, not adding the koolaide powder to your water might help. Does that make me a homeopath? If so, does that mean you speak for me and my ideas as well(Actually, I'm sure you think you do)? Perhaps I'm practicing without a license..

Ok, let me see if I can follow the spin here. This was just a few bad apples working for Merck, not Merck itself? HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Ok, now this is the best quote you've provided me yet. Now you don't want me to stereotype a whole group of people based on the actions of a few. LMFAO. I know someone who does that, but it isn't me. I have a medicine cabinet full of fine pharmaceutical products. Any idea who the person I am referring to is?

Oh my god, stop! stop! I'm laughing so hard here there are literally tears coming down. Now I'm not supposed to repeat a court's findings for fear of slander litigation, while you say things like

You've got one thing right. People should be afraid of saying negative things about people with deep pockets. Its just pure comedy reading it from you!

 

No, because i go to reputable, qualified professionals prescribing effective treatments that have been scientifically tested. Not some witch doctor selling snake oil. I'm surprised they didn't also suggest sacrificing a goat while drinking the magic tap water.

You can if you want, but you should forfeit your right to take medicine. What you are doing is as hypocritical as if i went to Sunday service.

I would LOVE to be taken to court by homeopaths. I'd have no problem proving they are shysters and i would have no problem raising defence funds. I'm sure the RDF or JRF would jump at the chance to expose these liars in a court of law.

 

On this we can agree. What can one say to the rest of your post except.... Shake n' bake. I think I'll coin your style of argumentation "The flying donkey penis defense".

 

You're banging your head against a brick wall...

 

The nice thing about pain, it feels so good when it stops!

In all seriousness, it is like teaching a donkey to sing but when I read comments like this:
"The doctors didn't create "purposefully misleading research" (i'd be careful making those claims, these people have deep pockets and don't like libelous statements)" it makes it all worth while. At some point it seems it would sink in that you've identified the enemy, and the enemy is you. I wonder if Ted Bundy or Charlie Manson ever looked at themselves in the mirror when they were alone and said, "Jesus Christ, I'm a F@#$ing lunatic!". Probably not .

 

Talk to someone who grew up in a family of doctors or doctors themselves, and chances are they'll agree with you. You talk to blind supporters of medicines and they will call you nutcase.

 

Wait a minute.. are you seriously trying to say that he is sacrificing himself on his parents irrationality because they're trying an alternative route for a disease?

So if a therapy cannot come up with enough money to scientifically prove its effectiveness, you're a whackjob for ever trying it? Haha, stOx, I shared your mentality once.. until I got really sick, and the medical doctors tried and tried and drugged me up all they could and I only got worse, one of them (the most qualified one, one of the best specialists in the country) even nudged me into an alternative approach.

Medical doctors are good for some things like emergencies, surgeries or anything requiring a last resort, and yes it may be appropriate in this case if all else fails, but this field of health DOES NOT treat the body as a whole. It treats the symptoms (covers them up till they get worse), it doesn't get to the root of anything, and fails to take preventive steps in health and answer what the cause of disease really is.

You are completely discrediting all alternative approaches to health and the people who dedicate their lives to them, who have helped me and my family.. are you not being distasteful yourself?

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It's also peculiar that medical doctors and advocates of medical science like to support the fact that stress, your mind and emotions contribute to many diseases, but they can't tell you by what mechanism it is caused. How does stress lower immunity? The ACTUAL science of it all. How can you disregard mindbody treatment if medical science points to a mindbody connection? It makes no sense at all.

StOx, I'm sure you know about Barry Marshall and his history proving Helicobacter pylori causes peptic ulcers. Pluto used to be the 9th planet in our solar system just a few years ago, and now it's not! Science is always changing, always reversing itself, you'd have to be a damn fool to blindly accept whatever "science" tells you is true to be true.

 

I'm saying he is sacrificing himself on the alter of his parents irrationality because they are opting for unproven treatment which, when it has been tested, has been shown to be no more effective than a placebo when there is tried and tested effective treatment that would give him a 90-95% of completely beating the illness.

It's nothing to do with money. The therapies have been tested, homeopathy especially, and it has been shown it is no more effective than a placebo. So yes, if you opt for that over a proven effective treatment you are at best a whack-job, and at worst an irresponsible parent.

Chemotherapy destroys the cancerous cells. it doesn;t just treat the symptoms at all.

no because their approaches have failed all testing. There is a reason they call it "alternative medicine", it's because it's hokus pokus bullshit. if it worked it would just be called "medicine".

yeah good luck trying to cure cancer by having a chill out session.

The operative word here being "proving" that peptic ulcers were caused by bacteria. When "alternative" therapies are tested, homeopathy especially, it shows them to be no more effective than a placebo. This is the difference, Marshall proved his claim, The only thing proven by testing alternative therapies is that they are ineffective.

And you'd have to be an even bigger fool to buy a bottle of tap water from someone as a cure for a disease.

 

Oh so true. When the enemy is at the gates, don't reinforce the gates, just carpet bomb your own position and hope more of the enemy die than your own. That is Chemo. It works in the very early stages of cancer because there are a lot more of your troops than theirs.

No doubt about it. Drinking Drain-O will kill cancerous cells.

Literally CHUGGING from the koolaide jar. That statement relies on so many bogus premises it is laughable.

1) All alternative medicine have had full clinical trials
2) The drug companies, as a business, do nothing to protect their profit margins by working to smear/block non-pharma based solutions to problems they are busy selling drugs for.
3) All data produced from clinical trials is accurate and never rigged

Of course we went over those premises earlier in this thread and stOx has convinced himself of the altruistic nature of the people he worships, so arguing with him about it is like arguing with any other religious fanatic. Pointless.

What is funny about this line of reasoning is that it comes from a guy who gets his information from Wikipedia, which makes it fact. When confronted with information that shows the "Proof" presented by some of these trials is bogus, he threatens suit for slander by the "Deep Pockets Drug companies". Then he tries to say its paranoia to think these people are anything but saints. His talk about suit for libel makes me wonder if Wikipedia how many times Wikipedia has been threatened for putting anything out that puts these "Deep Pockets" people in a negative light without overwhelming proof.

stOx's extensive experience with alternative medicine has lead him to believe that alternative medicine is the sale of tap water as medicine. I'm guessing someone sold him tap water as medicine some time around his youthful encounter with a priest. Perhaps the priest tried to heal his mental wounds by selling him tap water as homeopathic holy water medicine.

Yes stOx, medicine has nothing to do with money. Have another sip

 

What unproven treatment? Which therapy are we talking about here?

Every alternative therapy imagined has been scientifically tested? Get a clue dude.

So you're assuming here that anything effective has to be a chemical or drug? So if you have depression then your Prozac-deficient?

Good job making a straw man. You can't even explain why the rate of cancer is increasing so much in the western world.

Missed the point..

 

They are unspecific in the article. They just say "herbal remedies", as if putting a bit of basil on your jacket potato is going to cure cancer.

who said that? I certainly didn't. But don't let that small fact stop you pretending i said and refuting it as though i did. What i would say, though, is that out of all of the "alternative therapies" that have been tested not one of them has been show to have an effect greater than was found in the placebo control group. because if they had been tested and found to be effective they would just become treatments and would lose the "alternative" adjective.

I see you have entirely resorted to rewording what i said in order to misrepresent it and then asking me if that is what i said. Just read what i'm writing, it doesn't need your personal interpretation.

By definition it has to be a chemical and if that chemical has a physiological or psychological effect on the body it would also be, by definition, a drug.

Let me guess; because people don't own enough crystals, drink enough magical elixirs of life and hardly anyone has a dream catcher any more?

The main contributing factors to the increase of cancer is smoking, pollution and poor diets

Really? or have you just realised that you kinda fucked up by comparing something which you openly admitted to being "proven" to hokus pokus, mumbo jumbo and witch doctor remedies which constantly and consistently fail every trial they are put through?

 

So uh, wouldn't it make sense to prescribe a change in lifestyle and diet rather than shove drugs down people's throats? Well, whatever shuts them up I guess. Or, whatever makes a profit for the drug companies. The same ones who have a clear incentive to produce the scientific results they need to push their shit on gullible slaves like yourself.

Tell me then, does your mind, stress and emotions play a role in disease?

Actually I was pointing out that these very proven scientific observations were once considered hokus pokus mumbo jumbo by the same type of people I'm replying to now.