On the future of "Israel" and "Palestine"

This is complete bullshit. Simply not true. The "palestinian" is a new people. They were invented during/after the creation of Israel. Read my initial post in the thread. They claim, as well as teach in their schools, to be the continuation of the cnaanites. This is simply a pathetic lie. They have offcourse nothing to do with the cnaanites. Or do you know of some historical and/or archaeological evidence that i'm not aware of?

We ARE the continuation of the hebrews who once ruled this land. We have the same religion, same writing, and same names. The palestinian attempt to give false historical roots to a recently born entity - is pathetic. I still think they deserve a country of their own even though they have no historical meaning what so ever.

The word "illegal" is the funniest word, that one hears a lot in the muslim world. It find it very funny. According to which law is Israel "illegal"?. How is the U.S (indians), Australia (aboriginals), Jordan (an artificial country with absolutely no justification, ruled by a family like in middle ages), Saudi Arabia (same), or Syria (where the alawi minority rules and terrorize the majority) more legal than Israel? Or do you mean the laws of the quran? because I can't think of any other law (nor can all the other western countries think of such).
I ask you to stop sound like another parrot in the big choir of Israel-haters parrots and start speaking like an intellectual please. Invent your own words.

 

You asked me this same question earlier and I answered you, I will remind you in case you forgot:

and to save time, your reply was:

now if you do not mind, according to which law Israel is legal?

 

legal, is everything that is not illegal. The laws prohibit, not allow.

 

only through might is right

 

which laws?

 

There aren't any sets of rules according to which Israel (or Jordan, if you wish) can be "legal" or "illegal". so the use of the unrelated term is just meaningless.

Regarding your signature link:
Deir Yassin was a terrible event, from another era of the Israeli-palestinian conflict. There were also many massacres of jews by arabs (1936-1939) at that time.

Did deir yasiin happen? of course it did! This is history. Unlike the arabs, we never try to hide/twist the history.
Get this: When I was a soldier, in the initial training, they teach us about the deir yassin event as an example of something that should NEVER occur again. How it is against the spirit of the IDF.

But I find it very interesting that you have chosen this letter to promote your political arguments. Why? It is very interesting to see how you misinterpret the greatness of this letter. It is an example how deep our cultural differences are!

Think about this:
Einstein was a zionist. But even as such, the other zionists respected his right to think that Begin should be banned. That begin is a terrorist. You see, in my culture, even if Einstein thinks that Begin is a terrorist, this still doesn't make Begin a terrorist. Its just Einstein's opinion. Even after this letter, Israel offered Einstein to become president in 1952 (he refused, as the guys who offered this to him were hoping )

The old letter is a remarkable example of the wonderful pluralism and freedom of thought & speech of the Jewish people. This stands in the core of the reasons that we survived 2000 years of diaspora and did not disappear like many other ancient nations.
If the arabs could respect the opinions of other arabs like we do among us, they would be less extreme, less stubborn, and peace would have been achieved since long ago. I have never heared a palestinian who declared: "the suicide bombings in buses and restaurants is immoral, leads to nowhere, serves as an excuse for further occupation, and is against our national interests and values". Out of several millions palestinians, there must be at least 1 who thinks like that, no? that the suicide bombers are not freedom fighters, but terrorists? where is your Einstein?
I would dare to say that probably a negligible minority, but there are a few. However, they would not dare to speak up. In the Arab society: either you speak like the crowd, or you are stoned in the main square. In this way, how can the Palestinian society hear about new things and new ideas? How can people speak up their real opinions?

The arabs, esp' the arab league, is a BIG theater. No arab country say what they think, think what they say, or act like they would like to. In example, King Hussein did not want to go to wars with Israel. But still he was "dragged" into this. Because even king Hussein who was a great man could not say: "NO! you want to fight Israel? you go. I have nothing against Israel"

I hope that you see my point: The pluralism and freedom of thought&speech is the essence, or one of the main reason, why Israel is alive, surviving and prospering, whereas non-plural one-voice-choir palestinian are downing in an ocean of despair and hate. Or you think its ONLY the "occupation"? the cause of all evil on earth? Isn't there any way in which the palestinians can also blame themselves for their situation?

 

Occupation, is illegal, so is ethnic cleansing, and those are the two main factors on which the so-called state of Israel been established on, in addition to the violation of UN resolutions, and all what resulted since then, till now of killing, wars, destruction, land grabbing, expelling ...etc

Jordan, which you mentioned too, has not been established by armed illegal immigrants who mainly came from Europe, or by terrorist gangs, on the account of the original inhabitants, yet Jordan too was effected negatively by the illegal occupation, and the establishment of so-called Israel, since many Palestinians been forced on Jordan and Jordan hosted them, since 1948, till now, as refugees, and this is their status internationally too, until now,

as for twisting, its very nice to speak about twisting while you twist that letter and make it as "opinion" the massacre of Deir Yasin which was one of so many, was committed in an ugly way against a peaceful village, the lessons you claim they give now to IOF soldiers are not working, the killing got more, but the tools now are different, why to use knife now to slaughter a woman when they can throw a bomb and slaughter the whole family? even those who did services to Israeli patients as we have seen in the last war of Gaza,

what you try to twist and call as "his opinion" are proven facts, more facts been proved later regarding the collaboration between Nazism and Zionism.

Begin was a true terrorist, and he and other who became later prime ministers in the so-called Israel are known terrorists who been wanted internationally, if you have another opinion about this man, feel free to post it.




What they try to teach now to IOF soldiers without any use, have been already practiced in Palestine before the Zionism comes with its project of stealing Palestine by force, Muslims, Christians, and Jews all been living there peacefully.

 

imad, read my post again. You did not read it and you have missed the point. Please read it 3 times. try to get my point. I did not say that deir yassin is not a fact. I know that for someone who did not grow up in a free society, its hard to understand my previous post.

And yes, the Israeli PM are wanted internationally, but always as honored speakers and receivers of honoral Dr titles...

 

These leaders dare not go to Europe coz they know the Europeans won't put up with their bullshit like the Americans do, put them in prison and try them for war crimes.

 

I might not be in a so free society but thankfully I have a so free mind, much better than being in a free society where I depend on others for my info and thinking (Wikipedia)

I assume you are trying to twist again, wanted here is not to give lectures, you may come later to waste more time without having a real discussion by saying: "where did I say give lectures?", so let me be more accurate, wanted here does not mean "wanted to speak" but to trial and later to rotten in jail, the right place for such criminals and terrorists, for crimes they committed against humanity, I know this might be a shock for you but let's face it, they are criminals who later became PM's, or maybe you are part of the propaganda directed to the outside, where they try to make a criminal an honorable person,

he is wanted, like Shamir was, and Sharon, and others, for crimes where they on purpose bombed, and killed innocents including children, to terrorize the whole population, a tactic that been followed by Israel since it was just a group of criminal gangs who immigrated illegally to Palestine

 

Lieberman begins European tour in attempt to sway EU policy on Israel
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/04/israel-europe-middleeast-lieberman

Now here's a bloke that needs blowing up now! I think Lieberman's more dangerous than Aminajad and his violent rhetoric spells the end of Israel, and Palestine, and...

 

Jonathan Steele has written an excellent article in The Guardian

I can see change coming... There will be peace...

 

This is not going to happen, don't expect any good from US
US won't budge from zionist line that it has been towing for forever

We need to get strong ourselves instead of looking up to others and expecting them to help us

 

gauharjk gauharjk gauharjk....

Israel can not be treated as a normal country: because it isn't. It is a technological and scientific wonder which the west don't want to lose. even if this would mean higher fuel prices....

The palestinians have collected more than 7$bn in western aid in the last year (in two events). that's more than twice what Israel gets and 2000$ per person. the money, as always, will be used to mainly for the sweet life of their corrupt officials. Trust me: no new schools, houses, and infrastructure planned.
There is a saying in Hebrew: Telling half of the truth is worse than lying. This perfectly applies for the above quote.

the term "Palestinian land" is meaningless. the recently born palestinian people never had any kind of central government or soveirn land.

dear gauharjk. with all due respect to Jonathan Steele... please consider the following as the true reasons why Hamas is banned in the west:
A) The teachings, preachings, and education of hate of Israel and the west. example, example, example.
That's very good that you try to convince the west to embrace those who preach (and act) against it. good luck.

B) Hamas refutes Israel's right to exist in any borders. The borders are not an issue according to the Hamas.
Here, I could give you many youtubes where Pal PM preaches that in arabic. But that would be too easy.
Have a look at this interview to the western media.
1:28 Q: "Is there any possibility in recognizing Israel?"
A: "First of all, let Israel recognize Hamas".
Q: "But there's a dilemma"
A: "Israel is an occupying country. the normal thing would be for israel to recognize palestinian rights so that we can have our own country"
(interviewer exercizing such more pressure)
Q: Can you imagine a day where Hamas will extend a hand to Israel?
A: Hamas has always said that we are ready for a long lasting cease-fire, maybe 10, maybe 20 years, only if we could have a state based on the borders of 67'.

If I may, let me rephrase this for you: A state in the borders of 67' (which is the max we can give), is the pre-condition of Hamas for merely to talk with us. The only thing they can give us in return is a "cease-fire" (not "peace"). Then, they will continue until the whole of "palestine", from lebanon to the red sea, will be "liberated".

 

Are you for real? You seriously believe in that?

It's actually ironic from you to post something like that because I've already questioned several of half truths but you simply ignored it.
You are hilarious!

 

Thanks for the jokes ... really made my day

you really didn't need to write such a long post, only the above quoted text was enough, tells us everything about your state of mind

 

hmmm... interesting .... So allow me to piss you off a little with some facts and couple of simple immediate and direct conclusions one can draw for them, to stress that it is a legitimate, reality-based opinion and not a "state of mind":

Couple of facts:
A) The Americans who live in saudi arabia live in isolated ghettos.
B) In Iran, a marriage of a non-muslim results in death penalty by state law.
C) The arab&muslim countries have negligible contribution to science and technology (why? (read: "as for today")
D) the genocide of 250,000 people in darfur or several other attrocities doesn't even make it to the inner pages of the western newspapers, but if a palestinian kid gets a scratch, it will make it to the headlines? I live in Switzerland for 3 years. Even if nothing was happening, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict always made headlines.
E) the education of children to HATE (one of countless examples, saudi official TV. Warning: hard to watch)
F)...
G)...
and so on..

A+B+C+D+E+F+G+(and I could add more facts for you) =

1) The west have nothing in common with the arab&muslim world.

2) The west is manouvering between the warm feelings and sense of "these guys are exactly like us, we can't just abandon them and leave them in the hands of those ignorants" towards israel, and their financial interests that force them to deal with the arabs. = Israel is a technological and scientific wonder which the west don't want to lose. even if this would mean higher fuel prices..... The west wouldn't have cared less about the palestinians if the arab countries didn't have $$oil$$.

My dear muslim friends. try for a change to stick on 1 subject at a time.
Anybody find the above facts incorrect or the conclusions below not immediate and trivial ?

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p.s. please do not reply to the written below, I am just having fun.
Upon crossing the border between Israel and Egypt, the following occurs:
1) Democracy becomes dictatorship.
2) Being gay becomes illegal.
3) Government change every second year becomes a goverment change every second decade (and more)
4) The rate of people who can read and write drops from 99.99% to 54%....
5) The GDP per capita drops from 28,000$ to 2,100$ (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
(damn. this is fun. )
6) FGC rate (female genital cutting) raises from 0.00000% to about 95% (source)
7) The population of Egypt is 10 times bigger, but Nobel prize winners: Israel 8 , Egypt 4 (2 of them in "peace", 1 of them working for the west, ofcourse).
8) Unfortunately I couldn't find how many physics articles in peer-reviewed respectful journals were published last year from egyptian universities. Could it be zero?....?.......?,.......?.....? don't think. Please help me.
But dont worry! not everything is terrible!
9) Egypt has 24 olympic medals. Israel has only 3. Although if we exclude pre 1948 and divide by populations rate.. Israel still looks better but hey... whatever, I finally found something in which the biggest arab country in the region might be better than Israel, congrats!

If all Arab countries were like Egypt (=== if there were no oil), we wouldn't be having these arguments here simply because nobody in the world would even know that there is a people in the middle east, born something like 40 years ago as an outcome of Zionism, who names itself "palestinians" and claims palestine for itself.
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All you mentioned above, does not give Zionists gangs the right to occupy a country and expel it's people,

in addition, you say in one point, that the west has nothing in common with Arab/Muslim world, and in another point, you say there are Americans living in Saudi Arabia,


that cheery-picking can be done on any country, even fake countries like Israel, in addition to the crimes done by so-called Israel since very long, they also have some ... umm.. will leave it for you to decide..


notice this Israeli woman words about Muslim quarter

imagine if a Muslim woman entered a settlement...!

the story in short, this woman been attacked by a group of Israeli religious men, because she refused their "order" to move and find another place to sit in in that bus,

read the full story here ...

http://dovbear.blogspot.com/2006/12/religious-woman-beaten-by-chareidi-men.html

and many cherry-picking can be done, but still what is the point? does this make Israel legal? or it is another try to gain sympathy?

 

Did you mean to say

 

ChaosTrivia, I see you blame a few Arab countries like Saudi Arabia, or Persian Iran for being oppressive and closed societies. But you don't realize that Only 20% of all Muslims are Arabs. People from all walks of life, all cultures, all languages, are a part of the family of Islam. Islam was the religion that got rid of slavery, for Islam's first Muzzein, the person who calls for prayer in a Mosque, was Hazrat Bilal, a black slave who was freed by the Prophet and he became one of the first followers of Islam.

Muslims are going through their Dark ages, just like Europe went through theirs between 3rd and 8th century AD. But everything will change once there is a leader.

A large part of the Muslim world is ruled by tyrants, most of them supported by the CIA. Imagine the CIA would not have intervened in Iran in 1953 when they had their first democratically elected leader Mosadeh, then today the face of the middle east would have been different.

Today, US money is keeping alive they tyrant regimes of Jordan and Egypt. The coming economic debacle is really an opportunity to end global hegemony of a superpower who has always supported evil tyrants who ca do their bidding for them. So similar to the British Raj system. I bet the American Raj learnt it from the British Raj. Continuation of imperialism by another name...

Moshe, you are a secular Jew. You love your family and friends, and are a good human being. Why would you want to spend your life in a racist apartheid state? Why don't you come to USA? Or go to Europe... Or India... Or Japan. You can live anywhere. Why would you want your children to grow up in a stolen country? A militant country?

Do you realize why the Christian zionists support you? Its coz they want all Jews to be in the same place for World War to occur. zionists want you there because they are using you as a bait to call the saviour.