When is our government planning to incorporate all the remaining Palestinians over which it military maintains a criminal and cruel occupation, with Jews only roads and increasingly expanding settlements, apartheid wall that runs into Palestinian neighborhoods, often cutting off farmers from their fields, children from their schools, houses from their source of water. I would be happy if they all become israeli citizens and have a peaceful life. I recently read Arab members of knesset were barred from contesting elections this year. Israel bans Arab parties from running in upcoming elections --> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054867.html That was very reassuring.
You're right, I would resist. But, I have enough balls between my legs to not do so umongst civilians, and not purposly target civilians. Which your Hamas friends don't seem to have. So what, they are weak. If they are so weak they don't deserve their own country. Whats so different between Hamas using suicide vests on unarmed populations and Israel trying to destroy a launch site and accidentally hitting a school? Maybe if Hamas wouldn't hide umongst the civilians and start fighting like men, I mean, they're supposed to be masculin right? They sure don't act like it. A real man doesn't attack innocent women and children then cry because when they were getting counter attacked, (since they were hiding umongst innocents) a few die. your hypocracy is so great. It really keeps me amused between people trying to scam me.
I did not understand your last message. Or: I understand all of the single words, words that Israel opposers like to say like "apartheid", "cruel", "occupation" and so on. I guess you will use those meaningless words even if you will talk about Israeli fashion or Tennis... But I did not understand what you were trying to say, nor did you try to answer my question. I repeat my question: could you define exactly, maybe even supply a map, of exactly what you call "palestinian land". And if you might, also supply an explanation for the reasoning (any type would be good), that makes this piece of land "palestinian". I can relax you, however, that although some politicians tried to ban the arab parties from running, the supreme court have rejected it, and the arab parties are still in the game. Inface, the arab minority is now even stronger in the Israeli parliament than ever before. I am really sorry to disturb your very determined opinions with the facts. Some of their representatives are known to kiss and hug with Israel's most sworn enemies, like nasrahllah. In the 60's, in the U.S., it was enough that a neighbour will tell the police that he suspects that you are a communist, and you will "disappear". In Israel, you can be a MP, get a country salary & pension, and hug its enemies. Isn't Israel a wonderful country?
Having pulled its settlers out of Gaza, Israel is now imposing a total siege on the tiny Strip: the 1.5 million Palestinians locked up there have no access to the sea (Israel never let the Gaza seaport be built), no access to the air (Israel destroyed the Gaza airport), and all the crossings are under Israeli control (i.e., practically closed most of the time). Since the Hamas victory in the elections, Israel and the international community have also been imposing an economic siege on the Strip, severing the financial ties with the Palestinian authority; to pay their Authority's employees, the Palestinians have to smuggle cash through the crossings. Israel's "security system" – the Occupation incarnated – is the one who decides whether Gazans will have flour, medicines, and any other goods, how much, and when. While this economic and physical siege is being imposed by air, sea, and land, and while Gaza is daily bombarded by missiles, artillery, and naval fire, "center-left" Israelis can say things like "Israel has left Gaza. The Palestinians could use this fact to finally rebuild Gaza, to build houses for refugees, to encourage investments, and to create jobs. Gazans could finally live like humans" (quoted from a letter to the excellent Hebrew Web site Ha'okets). The situation in the West Bank is not so very different. The Palestinians there are locked in smaller cages than in Gaza, but the siege is less hermetic. While the Palestinians are locked behind huge walls, with a satanic system of roadblocks and permits, and sliced by roads-for-Jews-only and by settlements, harassed day and night by army incursions into their villages, houses, and bedrooms, many Israelis believe the occupation is now retreating, and its end is just a matter of time, or rather of semantics.
I take that you agree with me that "palestinian land" is a meaningless term, and that Israel is by no means an apartheid. The apartheid, as given in your website, is a racial segragation. We have (almost) the same race. It is a national struggle. (Some of the) palestinians are being limited in mobility, water, etc' not on racial grounds, but merely due to the fact that they belong to another nation, which have a year-long land dispute with us. Now, to your last post, LOL. Its pretty hard to have a debate with you. I thought that we were talking about "Can Israel be called apartheid", and about the term "Palestinian Land". Seems that you find youself in the corner and jump to a completely different issue. No problem, here is my answer: 1.3 million lol. you just must use the word Occupation? which is, like "palestinian land", meaningless? (or, each side defines it in another, non homogenous way?) You can not occupy land from somebody who never had control of it. Hamas won the general elections. However, it rose to power in Gaza in a coupe. The hamas militants slaughtered over 200 of their "fatah" political rivals in less than a week. One of them, I forgot his name, was beheaded, and a truck of Hamas militants drove around in the neighbourhoods of Gaza to show the faith of a "traitor", one who cooperates with the "jewish-zionist-entity" (which is the official name for Israel used by Hamas members & representatives) Wrong. There are crossings to egypt. They are even better hermetically sealed by the egyptians. furthermore, there are 30,000 pal. refugees in egypt. the greatest arab country with 60 mil. They are not allowed to enter the universities, and also they are not allowed to apply for citizenship. Many arab countries where there are palestinian refugees have an apartheid control over time. But this time, a real apartheid. Your infos are so "rounded" I find it amusing. Its like every fact you know serves your interest. If it does not, either you ignore it, or "round" it a bit. The siege on gaza began after the islamic revolution of the Hamas. The Hamas is an organization that denies Israel's right to exist in its principles. Namely, there is not even a place for negotiations, whether the state of Israel is allowed to exist. It is not even a matter of the borders. I think that you would need to have a lot, but really a lot of nerves, to demand from us to let these people come in and out our country. The palestinians has recieved an unprecedented 10 bilion $ in the recent years, 4 billion $ of them couple of weeks ago. This money will not reach the people, for example, to build schools or a new airport. This money will reach the curropt officials, the terror organizations, and the dozens other criminal gangs etc'. I am very sorry if the hate to israel makes you blind to see that the misery of the palestinians is their own fault. Would you, in their position, shoot useless rockets on the cities of southern Israel, which are the pre 67 indisputable territories? or would you rather say: "ok. enough. Thank you for pulling back the settlements. We will not engage in warfare against you. Please let us come to work in Israel, lets find a way together for a better future". You still didn't tell me anything about yourself. Nationality? religion? is it something you are ashamed of?
Here is where I got that post from --> http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=9178 Most israelis were European refugees who were fleeing hitler's torture. After WWII, no country wanted to accept them, and the zionists forced the Jews to go to Palestine. But there already were people in Palestine. Palestine was always a country, that was captured by the British after First world war. The British lied to the Arabs, promising them freedom from Ottoman rule. And betrayed them. You will never understand the pain Palestinians continue to undergo everyday, thanks to your settlements, blockades and army incursions. Thousands of Palestinian homes have been destroyed, thousands of trees uprooted, thousands of people killed, for no fault of theirs. Hamaz was a non-member until very recently. But the pain never stopped. You are chocking an entire population, an then complain that they are resisting? May be you'd like to know How to Live With Hunger. israel controls all the borders. And egyptian government continues to recieve money from the US so that their dictator can continue to oppress its people with impunity. It is a shame... Here is a report in Haaretz --> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1014944.html Oh, so that's what Israel means by a "two-state solution": An "independent" "Palestinian" "state" with Israeli supervision on its borders crossings, full of Israeli soldiers, Israeli jets, Israeli military stations – and, of course, Israel's right to send even more soldiers into it in "times of emergency." Shall we – to expose Israel's true face – suggest mutuality? How about Palestinian control on Israel's border crossings, a Palestinian military presence along Israel's Mediterranean coast, Palestinian jets free to fly over Tel Aviv and Dimona, Palestinian military stations in Haifa and Ramat Yishay, and Palestinian emergency response units in Israeli areas? There are many parties in israel, the newest one being the Lieberman party, who denies Palestine's right to exist. It has been a policy in israel for the last 60 years. You know it very well. I never see you complaining about that. You say Hamas wo power by military coup. But you never say the entire story. Source: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804 I'm sure you'd read the article, of how israel and Bush administration funded, trained and armed fatah to fight Hamas. Hamas was the elected government, but Fath refused to accept them. And plotted to overthrow them. The game backfired. You won't find truth is mainstream media... it is controlled by powerful corporations who have an agenda to hide the truth. And about my nationality & religion, that I won't share with you. Its none of your business.
Not surprisingly, you do not have a ability or the knowledge or the skill to debate with me, I don't follow those links, its boring. If you have an argument, just say it. like I do. Again, you did not reply to my questions. I doubt if you even read my answers. You seem to much in love with your opinions which are backed up by links.... Here are more false/inaccurate/twisted things in your last post. This is simply false. A complete bullshit, excuse me. A) There was never a country called palestine. The "palestinian" people was created, ironically, through the zionist movement. During which, a collection of arab tribes found themselves together in the same trouble. Even today, the definition of "palestinian" people is problematic. There are Israel palestinians (how they define themselves), yet some of them even serve in the israeli military. In the territories, there are muslim, christians, fatah, hamas, and various other groups which are called "palestinians" because this is the default name... B) Most of the Israelis are not WWII refugees. Out of 5 million jewish citizens of Israel (there are 2.5 more muslim and christian), less than 250,000 were WWII refugees. You see, in Poland for exmample, out of 3.5 million jews pre WWII, only 40,000 survived. This would be kinda hard to build a wonderful technology and science world leader like Israel and to protect its existence against so many enemies with holocaust survivors....... After the establishment of Israel, most jews arrived from Morocco, yemen. Another 1.2 million arrived in the 70's from the USSR. The Zionists didn't "force" anybody to Israel. LOL. In fact, the minority of the european jews who survived the holocaust did immigrate to Israel... the majority to the states, france, and belgium..... Actually, I understand it much better than you ever would, as I have seen it in my bare eyes as a soldier. I am a supporter of the dismanteling of the settlements and towards reaching an agreement with the palestinians. I am just trying to make a simple point: their suffering is their own fault. Are you willing to accept the possibility that a people will be in great suffer and yet would be the one to blame for it? How to live with hunger I did not follow offcourse. There are people living in hunger all around the world, especially in the far east and in Africa, in Israel, and know what? even in the US and Europe. The palestinians, however, are not living in Hunger. Lieberman party is not new, it is on since more than 8 years. It just got very strong in the recent elections. Actually I heared Lieberman say that he supports the establishement of a palestinian state. just couple of days ago. But, this is really not important. What is important is what the Israeli public thinks. Nowadays, an Israeli prime-minister can not get elected if he doesn't say that its time for a palestinian state to be established. Polls show that 60% of the Israelis support the withdrawal to the 67' lines. About the Gaza bombshell quote...This kind of bullshit is below the threshold of crap that I can bare.... sorry. What does the Hamas coup has to do with the bay of pigs? lol You could have just as well written in this paragraph that the zionists are behind 9/11 and that Elvis is alive... You see, that fact that you put a quote DOES NOT indicate that it is not pure bullshit..... I will teach you some more.... very gladly. The Hamas and the Fatah went to elections under the "palestinian constitution", which actually say that the president will be Muhammed Abbas (fatah, successor of arafat) regardless of the outcome of the elections! You see, it is the Fatah who controlls the govermental institutions (police, security forces) etc'. They give the people the paychecks. The raise to power of the Hamas was not expected by the Fatah. The Hamas now wanted, pretty rightfully, to be in real power, and not just symbolic power. This would have to mean to overthrow the Fatah who controlled the police and the other governmental institutions. This would have, in turn, require a bloody coupe. And that's exactly what they did. In Gaza, the Fatah fell asleep on guard, and the Hamas took advantage quickly and act against the "pelastinian constitution" which ridiculously was written by the fatah, offcourse. The cost was over 200 deaths. Murdered in the most cruel of ways. Not that Hamas cares about palestinian deaths, as we have seen again in the recent conflict. Yes indeed. The israelis and the US were supporting the Fatah, as the fatah is a secular movement with which peace could be achieved in our lifetime. The Hamas are however not abandonmed: They are trained and equipped by Iran, in their effort to spread the Shiite islam and jihad in the world. I see nothing wrong that the western world train and support the moderate and practical palestinians whereas Iran trains and equip the fundamental islamistic palestinians. I am also not sure on which side you are. You forgot to say: "jewish corporations". Yeah. Its clear that nobody but you knows the truth. You are the smartest. I will not respond to any more posts of you since (A) they are full with lies (that I am tired of correcting) (B) you never refer to what I say, but rather cut & paste all of the nonsence propaganda materials you seem to collect obsessively. I can offer you however, that if you are so interested, why don't you come for a visit in Israel and the palestinian territories? maybe you will learn more than from your links. You can use my guestroom anytime.
Apartheid 2007 Report - Occupied Gaza like apartheid South Africa, says UN report: A UN human rights investigator has likened Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories to apartheid South Africa and says there should be "serious consideration" over bringing the occupation to the international court of justice. The report by John Dugard, a South African law professor who is the UN's special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, represents some of the most forceful criticism yet of Israel's 40-year occupation. Prof Dugard said although Israel and apartheid South Africa were different regimes, "Israel's laws and practices in the OPT [occupied Palestinian territories] certainly resemble aspects of apartheid." His comments are in an advance version of a report on the UN Human Rights Council's website ahead of its session next month. John Dugard, has issued a harshly critical report on Israel’s human rights record in regards to its treatment of the Palestinians in occupied Palestine. “The international community, speaking through the United Nations, has identified three regimes as inimical to human rights - foreign occupation, apartheid and colonialism,†Dugard says. In a report posted on the UN Human Rights Council’s website, due to be tabled this week, the South African law professor accuses Israeli regime of all three. Below follows an excerpt of the report. OCCUPATION, COLONIZATION AND APARTHEID Gaza remained under occupation despite the withdrawal of settlers in 2005. "In effect, following Israel's withdrawal, Gaza became a sealed-off, imprisoned and occupied territory," he said.
I am just tired of all this. chaostrivia does not even want to look at the evidence I have provided. Doesn't want to follow the links he says. That is sad. He doesn't want to know why Hamas had to take over Gaza. Not interested in how Palestinians are barely surviving in their concentration camp. Not interested at all... And he never provides any credible sources of his own. He wants me to believe him verbatim. I provide sources for whatever I say. He doesn't need to provide proof, as if his words are gospel. He's calling fatah a secular movement. When there was no Hamas, Fatah was the terrorist. Not that the corrupt fatah was voted out of power, adn became israel's pawns, they have become secular. Does fatah defend the palestinians from the continuously expanding settlements in Waet Bank? Are they doing anything? All fatah leaders live a life of luxury, but they never care for the ordinary palestinian. That is the main reason Hamas was elected. Bat US and israel did not like the election results. They wanted a government in power that they could control. And so, they planned a coup on the elected leaders of Palestine. But Hamas found out and pre-emptied the coup. Everything is given in the Vanity Fair article. Hamas did not need more power because it was already an elected government. It was fatah who refused to share power with them... Anyways, its way too boring.
Hey gauharjk, good to have you talking with me instead of pasting worthless links. I find it disappointing that having a real debate is boring for you. but exchanging one-sided articles and video not. This last post of you made it clear that you are muslim. This is the muslim-style of "nomeclature" in this conflict ("Fatah is not defending...","Fatah don't care about the palestinians..."). Still , you shouldn't be ashamed of it, you could have mentioned it. I do not follow article links because you know very well that for every link of yours I can put a dozen that say exactly the opposite. Infact, if i'm not mistaken, I just said the reason and the circumstances in my last post. If I were wrong, I would be very happy that you tell me the truth. No links please, write it without refering to those anti Israeli sites. Fatah is a secular movement, and a terrorist movement (creating the most deadly suicide bombings, also with women bombers) Yes Fatah leader live the life of luxury. But the Hamas leaders also. In the last war, all the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade leaders were hiding 100m below the ground. It is only the teenagers/early 20ies that were told to stay and fight. This is the arab people: they have no social organization like in the west, everybody is taking care of his family only. This is true not only for the palestinians, but also for the whole arab world, and this is why all arab country are dark dictatorships with no contribution to humanity as far as science and technology are concerned. I don't need "vanity fair" articles. This is my life here, I know better than all of the US UK whatever reporters that drop by for a week.... And this is exactly what I said in the previous post! Hamas won the election and due to the political structure and the "constitution", could not get real power. They wanted to have saying at the police etc', but the Fatah wont share it with them. Their solution was the only solution they can think of to all kinds of problems ("occupation", "women not properly dressed", "fatah", and many more) ---> Murder. This is what fundamental religious people do.
The west bank doesn't seem to be having any problems with the Israelis. But, then again, they don't have Hamas. You do realize that Israel would be more open to discussion if Hamas would just put their crappy rockets down and actually come to the tables with more talk. This would actually help Hamas with the international community.
Well I wouldn't say that the west bank doens't seem to be have any problems with the Israelis. I would, however, merely state the fact, that when Israel crushed the Hamas in the last confict, the demonstrations in London and Barcelona involved more people and more violence than the demonstrations in the west bank.... food for thought for all of Israel haters in the above posts.
You are really funny guy indeed! So you would take a rifle and fought against one of strongest armies in the world in open field? Are you suggesting that all those who fought against nazis all over occupied Europe in WWII were cowards because they were hiding with civilians and didn't fight like a man (by your deifinition!)? Seriously, you should think about what you post. Seriously, put yourself in their position and tell us what would you do? Gets into open field in Gaza and fire rocket to Israel? You have to be retarded to do that and you would have hard time to find anyone in thw whole world who would do that.
Oh and btw Jews intentionally killed civilians in proccess of creating Israel, US intentionally killed civilians to defeat Japan in WWII and I guess this list could go on and on... Word "hypocracy" comes to my mind
How can you be so blind? ILLEGAL!! Just because their Jews they don't have to be Israelis. they are no longer citizen of Israel. We do have good relationship with the Arabs in the north, in Jaffa or even the southern Arabs. So please, visit Israel and see the great connection in some areas (I wont be a friend of terrorist) that we have with Arabs and with whole communities like Muhamadim Arabs, or Druze Arabs.