You and many other RP supporters imply it all the time by rebutting criticism of your criticism through citing the revolution and "what this country was founded on". It seems you want us to believe that Jefferson and Washington would spend all of their waking hours talking s*it about, and hating on, the country that they put their ass on the line to create. I'm not. When I start name dropping founding fathers in an attempt to align them with my narrow minded criticisms, you can accuse me of trying to seem patriotic. I'm not a patriot, I'm just a guy on the interwebs who likes a little objectivity and fairness, especially regarding the country I feel so lucky to be a part of.
Interesting that you never elaborate more on what they created and why they created it. Just that, "they put their ass on the line to create it." No mention of what it is out of you. I understand you may be intimidated by facts and history and under the pressures of mismanaged emotions, but be honest here - you're not being objective or fair. So you're not a patriot, but I'm sure you still know what patriotism is if you accuse me of not being patriotic, correct?
I said country, read it again. I don't have mismanaged emotions. If I did, I'd do stupid stuff like stalk Sean Hannity and throw snowballs at him while screaming profanities. I think Sean Hannity is a douche too but that's not a good reason to act like an idiot. 1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriot Sorry nate, doesn't sound like you. You might meet the secondary definition but only because built into the definition is "a person who regards himself or herself as a defender...". And well, anyone can regard themselves as anything.
First off, saying that these other countries were justified in their actions is not siding with them. Even though I don't agree with the views that you are saying are anti-American, I am saying that they aren't necessarily anti-American. These people could still be very patriotic and care for America, but they might just not agree with the way things have gone and they may think that we have treated others unfairly- isn't it their right to think that way if they want? It doesn't necessarily mean they are anti-American, but it just means they would have acted differently than the states did. Saying that we provoked them, is again different than siding with them (and I am not trying to insult your intelligence, I am just stating a fact to refresh you and anyone who is reading this thread.) Second, and perhaps more importantly, all Ron Paul supporters are not like this. A lot of your arguments make it seem like you are saying like they are all like this (or atleast a majority,) even if you don't mean for it to come out that way. For example, I am a Ron Paul supporter and I would never justify what Hitler did. Just because one or two people feel that way, does not mean the core feels that way. Like you said- your main interaction with Ron Paul supporters has been on this forum- do you really think that's an accurate representation of us?
There are definitely extremist elements in Ron Paul's support base. That doesn't mean that all Ron Paul supporters are extremists or that they support or condone such extremists. It's a logical fallacy used by many to marginalize Ron Paul and his supporters. Like the Jedi Mind trick, it only works on the weak minded. LogicFlux, you seem to have a curious definition of anti-American. I wouldn't use that label for people who advocate for our country's sovereignty on the world stage (anti-globalists), personal liberty, free markets and a sound monetary policy. These are all vital issues upon which this country was founded and which we are drifting further away from every day. Don't mistake nationalism for patriotism. They are distinct concepts.
I guess you're resorting to playing stupid? Funny how I didn't support that. But I understand you're only trying to play the clementine card. Just as anyone can regard anyone else as anything. Running to the dictionary out of laziness or lack of originality may have worked for that, but there are still some questions you have left unanswered.
I don't really recognize your username so I don't know how long you've been reading this forum. But trust me(or don't, I don't care, I'm still telling the truth), this forum used to be full of posts(even more so than it is now) denouncing and criticizing the US. There are people who seemed to make it their life's goal to criticize the US, yet they wouldn't apply the same standards to those who most of us would consider enemies. If I'm right in my assessment(and I am), then that is a pretty perfect example of anti-Americanism. Like the example I give about the first gulf war. They were very critical of us attacking Iraq, yet they apologized for Saddam attacking Kuwait which is what precipitated the war. They criticized the US's involvement in WWII yet apologized for Germany and Japan. No, I've said before that forums like this attract radicals from all sides and really probably aren't very representative of anything except the margins. I think there are a lot of valid reasons to support Ron Paul. When Ron Paul first started becoming known, I mean really know, a few years ago, I liked him. I still like that he stands up to the establishment. We need people like that, even if they're wrong. But I also think he has the craziest, most anti-American supporters, but I'm sure they're still a minority of his supporters. And yes, people have the right to hate America but I have the right to point it out as well. It's just discourse until people start throwing snowballs at me. Just an observation: Look at the girls in this forum(at least the ones with girly names firegirl and rebecca), they don't seem crazy or very anti-american. Not a good sample for creating a hypothesis but it does make you wonder if a lot of the more radical thinking and behavior is testosterone driven.
Jesus, read it again. The it I was referring to was the country, the country they created. Please stop skipping words. No, but I thought it was relevant to the original thread topic of RP supporters being trouble makers who are capable of violence(even if it's snowballs, it's still an aggressive act). Yeah, I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to get at. You think I'm attacking your patriotism but I'm not. I'm attacking you for being a US hater under the guise of being patriotic. I'm not dick cheney. In fact I think he's an asshole. I don't attack people for being unpatriotic because they don't agree with me. What I don't like is that a lot of the RP/Alex Jones types like to invoke the revolution and our founding fathers to somehow align themselves with something patriotic and noble. Just because you criticize the government and how it uses it's power doesn't mean your motivations or cause is noble. I guess, to boil it down, is that a lot of RP supporters(still the minority) don't like the US and they try to legitimize their hatred by invoking patriotism. I think this is very dishonest. If you hate the US just come out and say so. There are a few on here who have almost taken that step. Ghaurgjha(sorry, man, I really can never remember your name and am too lazy to look it up) has more or less, ST12, imad, maybe a couple others. We know that they don't really have the US's best interest at heart, but at least they're mostly honest about it. But maybe it's because they're foreigners and if they were Americans they would feel the need to cloak it more by joining the RP revolution?
I was hoping I wouldn't need to spell it out for you as to not "insult your intelligence." In this question I'm asking you what America was founded on, and what motivated our Independence in the first place. Sorry to disappoint you but this is really nothing new. There'll be a few bad apples in every basket, it's only human to occasionally succumb to aggressive instincts when emotions are running high. It's not a Ron Paul thing it's a human thing. Remember what some of the "peace" activists did to vets returning from Vietnam? Besides, just about everyone in Ronpaulforums was quite upset with the one(s) who initially threw the snowballs. In that video alone you can hear one of them say to stop throwing them. Then tell me what it means to be American. I'm still trying to figure out how our founding fathers were anti-American?
Neither would I. I'd use the label for the things I've spelled out in this thread. Like being against everything the US does and then apologizing for enemies of the US who do the same or similar things, or trying to place ultimate blame on the US for said enemy doing those things. I'm curious how anyone could find this curious. And I doubt that the foreigners on here who support Ron Paul really care about our monetary policy, sovereignty or liberty, or at least they don't care about it in a way that has our best interest at heart. Like Guarhja(or whatever, sorry) for example, he's a big Ron Paul guy and a pretty unabashed US Hater. Don't you at least find it equally curious that nate doesn't agree with you that Russia overstepped its bounds, but that they are actually one of the world's last hopes for extinguishing the NWO? Don't you find it curious that a disproportionate number of RP supporters seem to also be Alex Jones followers and believe that the US is the strong arm of a global elite that aims to enslave and/or kill us all? Alex Jones alludes to taking up arms against the government pretty often. I'm not saying I like this kind of government profiling but at the same time the RP/NWO(or a subset of them) crowd kind of deserve a bit of scrutiny because of the stuff that comes from the spiritual leader's mouth(Alex Jones.).
Free beer? I don't know, Nate, clue me in. The vietnam peace activisits that were actually violent may be the same type of element that is represented disproportionately among RP supporters. I'm sure most of them are fine people. But we're talking about statistically significant differences, not majority vs minority. I don't understand why you keep repeating this retarded question? And who the hell said the founding fathers were anti-american?
No need to clue you in. What I did was demonstrate that you are the real anti-American; you've failed to recognize what Americanism even is. You "alluded" to it.
Wow you've got a waterproof case there Nate. You got me, I'm an anti-American, what can I say? Where's the next RP rally? I've got to get something done today/tonight Nate. Maybe later, k? XOXO
Disagreeing with the Federal government's policy does not make someone anti-American. I think you are taking a superficial view of the root cause for the dissent in most Ron Paul supporters. Why would I find it curious? We are not Ron Paul automotons incapable of independent thought. That kind of group think is more prevalent in the old guard GOP. Not all RP supporters agreed on all the elements of RP's campaign platform, much less viewpoints of current events. The real common denonminator in RP's support base is a desire for minimal government in line with our Constitution. Inadvertently or purposefully, you just played on the logical fallacy I mentioned previously. What is a disproportionate number of RP supporters? How did you arrive at this conclusion? Did you poll all RP supporters and determine that x% are Alex Jones "followers"? Does x% mean that 100-x% should be dismissed out of hand? Does x% fringe/extremist support mean the ideas should be dismissed out of hand? What if the x% also support clean water, diplomatic relations with Great Britain and apple pie? Do they also become evil ideas/ideals? Just wow. Better resurrect J. Edgar Hoover before it's too late. COINTELPRO holla! I'd suggest looking into the mirror when talking about anti-American tendencies.
I personally don't support Ron Paul because I think the government is totally evil and out to enslave everybody. I am a regular at the Ron Paul forums, but hardly post because of some of the ridiculous things people post. Let's put it this way: I don't think EVERYTHING our government does is a conspiracy. I think we are getting away from the principles that made this country great and why this country was founded in the first place. My interpretation of the Constitution is that they set up the American government to be small and FOR the People. I don't think the leaders and politicians we have now are FOR the People anymore. This country is in crisis right now and I think it all boils down to one thing: GREED. Politicians accepting money to get certain bills passed that will in NO way benefit the country. Bankers making mortgage loans to people who shouldn't get one so they can make their money and pass the debt to someone else. The public for thinking they NEED the house, credit cards, TVs, and Playstations they CAN'T afford. We have set ourselves up for such a downfall. The USA should be reshaped into an outstretched hand waiting for a friggin' bailout. And that's why I'm a Ron Paul nut. He's the closest thing we have to defending our Constitution and the principles it was founded on. And I admire him when he wants every American to be responsible, take care of themselves, and stop acting like a child of the government!
See now how could I attempt to marginalize this? I couldn't. The reasons she gave for supporting Paul are valid and she's honest about some of the people in the Ron Paul crowd.
Please read my posts or don't even respond. I think I've said more than once that disagreeing with the government is not a bad thing in and of itself. In fact it's a good thing. Maybe, but there's a lot of wackos(just relative to most other political groups) in the support base as well. The reason for this might be because so many people first heard of Ron Paul on the Alex Jones show through his frequent appearances. I'm not going to conduct a scientific study in order to determine if the RP base harbors a disproportionate number of wackos. If the standard is conducting a scientific poll before making a judgement on something then I'd be stuck in life without making many decisions since I don't really have the time or resources. So I tend to rely on common sense and interpretation of experience. I've already described my experiences on this forum. The most thuggish, rude, radical, anti-american types on this forum have almost always been Ron Paul supporters. Almost all of the NWO believers are also RP supporters(I can't prove this with hard numbers either but if you don't see it you're blind). So no, I haven't conducted a 1 million dollar poll to scientifically prove that RP attracts NWO nuts and other radicals. I haven't conducted a study to see if the majority of healthy straight males would do Natalie Portman either. So if that's ever a thread topic you got me there too. Also, if you don't believe me listen to another supporter: She's being turned off by other RP supporters. Like I said, I liked Ron Paul at first until I saw the crowd that was gathering around him and the beliefs they espoused. Who knows, if it wasn't for them he might have been won me over and I'd be a RP supporter today myself. At one extreme you have the restriction of political speech. At the other extreme you turn a blind eye and pretend domestic terrorism is not a threat and has never happened. Guess which extreme my views lie at? Neither. But if AJ and his brainwashed masses are going to talk about fighting a war with the NWO, in which the US government is believed to be part in parcel, then they should expect some scrutiny. It's common sense. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. 1. AJ alludes to fighting the government 2. low level government agencies turn an eye towards those known to be associated with AJ 3. AJ then reports: Oh noes the government's harrassing us!
Which goes to show the kind of person you are, or at least the way you think. You're too wrapped up in fashion and appearance to understand the actual message. It's a problem with the newer generations, no direction so whatever looks good, go with it. Also, I admit the way we come across is not our strong point. This has its roots in the fact that we're usually not bullshitters and don't pander to political correctness. I have my own points of contention with some breeds of RP supporters (namely the absolutist mentality). In fact, just about all of my posts on RonPaulForums are criticizing what other supporters are saying/spreading. What does that say about me? Well I'm a critical person, I believe criticism is best when it comes to intellectual matters. To make a better product or service, you need to have some degree of criticism for it to evolve and meet or surpass the competition. Through competition, everything evolves. So you have to understand at some point, that without finding out exactly what is wrong, you'll never be able to find just what is right. So when I apply my criticism of country, it could be seen as anti-Americanism to the incompetent observer. You don't have to be a mean-spirited person either to have some healthy criticism. I'm pretty easy to get along with in real life.
You're pretty easy to get along with online. I just poked at you a while ago, you took it serious and now you hate me and have a vendetta.