No one is saying Bush was perfect but it shows how little you know about the United States Constitution when you say Bush changed it to protect himself. Hell the democrats had control of the house for most the time so he couldn't get a damn bill passed that he liked and yet he changed laws to keep him out of jail. You are a true idiot.
You seem to believe your own spin too using spin & lies to do it! Sound familiar? I never said he changed the constitution. and bush had full control of ALL houses for a few years before he lost it because he was a tool! Then he became a lame duck because he fucked up all he touched. A true idiot? pot calling kettle black? When one resorts to name calling the other must hold the winning hand. Showing your age there? It's time for little children like you to grow up beyond that, no matter how mad I get you.
The whole world understood and that is why most of the civilized world was against this lie of a war. Its incredible that there are still people that backed him on this lie of a war. Empires stay strong by suppressing other countries. Most people know this around the world. As Doctor Ron Paul said they dont hate us because they are jealous of envious of us, they hate us because we are over there. Rome did it, Persia did it.
Were we in Afghanistan or Iraq when we were attacked? I like a lot of what Ron Paul says but the idea that it is because we were in the Middle East why we were attacked is absurd. If you are going to reason without any basis then that is qualification enough to be an idiot. As I asked before, please give me one instance where Bush changed anything to protect himself from war crimes. No sensible person is saying he is a war criminal because the Geneva Convention clearly says that during war civilians die. Now if he went to Iraq and purposely killed civilians then he is a war criminal.
worldman, you will never be able to convince them. Neither one of those two. Pingpong, I agree, what America did in the 50's was retarded with Iran. But, that was what? 50 years ago? Good try bringing that up, but, it has nothing to do with America today other than Iran hates us. And the ones that hate us are the ones in power. The one's we picked to be in power. America is not very good at picking friends. We always seem to help out the ones that will attack us and turn against us after 10+ years. Bushranger, you said he changed laws to keep him from being a war criminal. Funny you say that. Considering he, as president, can not change laws enacted by congress. You need to research how the American Government works. Secondly, he can't change International Law. So, apparently, he isn't a war criminal or Geneval would be having a fit right about now trying to get him convicted, they are not. Throw your lies and propaganda to more gullible people. If you don't know what that means, it's written on your ceiling above your computer.
It's just as hard to convince you guys as it is to convince nemmy that his bible was written by men. You've put so much faith in your dreams that there's nothing that will convince you otherwise. Here's just one new law as I can't be bothered arguing with you right now. http://www.loc.gov/law/help/war-powers.php (note the .gov extension) http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi...=107_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ243.107.pdf Also note that bush had control of congress at that time. To me it seems worldman is more stubborn than lonestar on this as at least lonestar admits ALL wars are immoral though his penchant for government overthrow by force, as opposed to election, is very concerning. Assuming 'lonestar' is Texan, aren't they big on oil & guns there?
I fail to see where the war is illegal? Congress passes extensions on it all the time, through a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) that is renegotiated every year. So you failed there Yes, I believe in the right of the people to overthrow a government through force. How the heck do you think the US was founded? We didn't vote on it and the King say "well, I guess since the majority of you think you should be your own country, have at it." It came through the Declaration of Independance and a bloody war. Anyone who doesn't think it is immoral to war now a days really doesn't understand life. There really should be no reason, unless absolutely necessary, to war. Even overthrowing a government. I believe in the right of the people to do that. I believe in the right of a sovering nation to defend themselves as well. There are fine lines where I would agree to a war. The initial war in Iraq yes, the sustainment of troops there? nope. Not for this long. I could see a year or two later to make sure they are getting things done, but, after that, let them fend for themselves. But, only the dead have seen the end of war.
I'm not a Bush supporter, but I cannot stand people calling bush a war criminal. What Bush did, Any president would do the same for her country even the report come out to be false later, as a president your main job is protect the people.
Obama still has troops in Iraq, he is sending more to Afghanistan and he has killed over 32 people in Pakistan in his aerial drone raids. Is he a war criminal?
Now you quit using facts mr. The liberals do not know what those are, all you are doing is confusing them. You know they don't use them and don't know how to. And when you bring facts to a debate with them, especially, here, they run away for a while.
Worldman if thats your belief than you choose to ignore the facts and the truth. The facts and the truth say we have been meddling in the middle east for the past 50 years. Mossadegh was just one example , where we basically told him to accept being controlled by us and by the UK or risk having democracy destroyed in his country. How can you think its absurd? Its even in the library of national congress for petes sake. When you say its absurd you basically give our government a green light to keep doing it to other countries, and when these countries get angry you want us to invade them again? When the iranians took our americans hostage in the embassy during the iranian revolutions, one hostage complained and asked why are they doing this to them, that our country never did anything to them. You know what the hostage said? " well in 1953 you stole our country from us". To say its absurd worldman , shows that you are being ignorant of the facts. Just imagine how you would feel towards china if they did the same thing now to us? Im amazed at this statement of urs. Hostlonestar, you make it seem like it was just a blunder our government made. It was no blunder. We wanted complete control of iranian resources, we wanted to keep treating the iranian people like slaves, we didnt want the iranian people benefitting from oil sales, and we deliberatly destroyed democracy in iran in 1953. Your right this was 50 years ago, but the installation of the shah made the iranian people so tickeddddddddddd off that they turned to anyone that could get the us out of there so that the iranian people could be free again. Unfortunately the only ones who were strong enough to do this were the islamic extremists.Because of us the iranian people had no choice then and certainly have no choice now. You made it seem like some dumb retarded act when it was planned way in advance without any care to the freedom or feelings of the iranian people. THESE PEOPLE ARE IN POWER IN IRAN BECAUSE OF USSSSSSSSSS. Did we ever ever apologize to the iranian people? Maybeits not a big thing to you but it is a huge thing to them. You also act like Iran was the only country we did this to. Wrong. We did it to alot of countries. For your information , im asfar away from being a liberal as possible. Im a classical conservative, but being conservative doesnt mean that I should ignore the truth and be totally biased against the truth. There are many instances where we went against the creed of the founding fathers and destroyed democracy in other countries for our need to control them and rob them of their natural resources and power. How can anyone with a conscience ignore these facts. Would you not agree that 1953 was a crime against humanity???????????????
No I wouldn't agree it was a crime against humanity. I agree it was a completely retarded thing to do. And wrong. The US has a nack for doing things like that, helping people out that turn around 10 years later to attack us, and doing just some completely retarded things that don't even go inline with what we are supposed to be about. I agree that is was wrong.
Good one Before I answer your question please define what is considered a war criminal and what is considered genocide?
A war Criminal is anyone who installs puppet regimes in 3rd world countries and puts all the pieces in place for people to die and suffer agonizingly, and many people suffered and died because of the secret police that we installed in iran. or is that just a mild thing ? The savak was know in that part of the world as being as brutal as hitlers secret police was in ww2. A whole country was held hostage because of our governments greed and lack of respect for the democracy that another country deserved to have, and you now want the iranian people to trust us again? Would you trust us again if you were an iranian citizen? They are still trying to find out what happened to many people that opposed the shah. The shah was our guy, funded and supported by us, and installed by us. Hostlonestar , like i said many times before it has everything to do with us. The current leadership in iran is there right now in a position of power because of what we did, the iranian hostage crisis happened because the iranians new that our american embassy in iran was the intelligence center that plotted operation ajax to get mossadegh out of power. Do you think that happened for no reason? Of course our tv stations would never mention this, but if you want the facts read a book called " ALL THE SHAHS MEN" by American journalist Stephen Kinzer. The iranian people wont trust us now even with these extremists they have in power, and you know why? Because our policies in that region havent changed one bit in the last 50 years. The everage iranian student is very educated, and they arent going to be fooled. So I ask you again hostlonestar, would you trust us again today if you were iranian , given the fact that our governments foreign policies havent changed a bit in 50 years? There is a huge difference between being a true conservative and standing up for conservative values than being a neocon. I would even argue that neocons and far left liberals are just about the same. True conservatives are moderates.
I have already agreed with you about that little issue. Why is it you feel the need to keep mentioning it? You mention it in every thread about the middle east that you can find a way to work it in there. How much clearer do I have to be? I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT IT.
Apparently you either do not know the definition or you are intentionally skewing it to your ideology. Here is the real definition as well as the URL where you can find it. And here is the definition of war crimes. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/war+criminal http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/war+crimes Now please tell me. Is Bush responsible for any of those? Going by the official definition of a war criminal and war crimes can he be held accountable for any of them?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7988035.stm The Iraqi journalist who hurled his shoes at George W Bush has his sentence reduced from three years to one year.