Personally, I don't delve into the embryotic stage....I have mixed feelings on that area. Though I wouldn't state something as not having life. "Life" is a biological system which independently performs all four of the following functions:1) Metabolism2) Biological "Information" Use and Processing3)Reproduction4)Cell Membrane Maintenance The most simplistic of creatures are not concious as we are, but as in most of our process of being born we have the four above systems put into place and thus are 'life'. We may not be a fully concious beings, but even that take 14 months to fully develop into self awareness....so I'm assuming most people can't abort at that stage,...since it's outside of a woman. Babies are Conscious - David Chamberlain, PhD http://www.eheart.com/cesarean/babies.html The man specialize in Cesarean, and infant psychology...interesting read. And no, I don't think he even mentioned his moral conviction on abortions, as his work as to deal with cesareans and unborn/born babies mentalities. David Chamberlain, PhD is a pioneer in birth psychology, and one of the founders of APPPAH (Association for Pre- and Perinatal Psychology and Health),
Recently I've started to think of the spectrum of thoughts ie the range of beliefs in a given issue. Animal activists take animals up to the level of humans (in many cases), and they believe they have the rights of humans. Although I've yet to meet an animal activists that believes the pesticides aisle in a hardware store is morally wrong. It's a bit odd how human can subjectively look at life ie this is more or less important because I say so. A fetus is in the 8 week stage (plus), and thus has many of the systems that equate to life ie1) Metabolism2) Biological "Information" Use and Processing3)Reproduction4)Cell Membrane Maintenance . While generally it's just a standard, and can engaged in all different manners, I find it odd how vast humans range their version of value. It's really hard to come up with a comphresivable set of morals, when the overall system seem to be subjective. What makes us more valueable than the ants? And who are we to set those standards of value? Anyways, just trying to look outside of the box.
Societies with less kids are more selfish and violent. It's also well-known that less kids you see in a family, the more selfish and arrogant they are (children i mean, or the single child)= spoiled kids. Abortion should remain legal but controlled by a commission. Its too easy to make kids and then get rid of it. Decisions must be made according to each case. There are justified ones, there are also cases of real murders. Just because you dont like the father doesnt give the right to kill his child, or the child in general if the father is unkown. Everyone has the right to live, taking a life for some osbcure reason like you dont like the father or want to make more money should not be tolerated. Its not ethical. Some pro-abortion ppl might say "but the babies dont suffer". If you shoot someone in the head he also doesnt suffer, its still illegal , at least in the US Also, even if abortion had to be controlled, it would not mean US families would grow to 10+ kids and that it would ruin the country. Abortion is only an extreme way to get rid of an unwanted kid. There are also pills and condoms and other birth control methods, that are more effective. I dont support pro-abortion groups, dont support anti-abortion ones. I just want to retain the best ideas and make up my own solution to make everyone happy.
Any actual links to back that up? I was under the impression that societies that are more advanced and more educated tend to to have less children? But its not concious, it doesn't have nervous system, and doesn't produce brain waves until 3rd trimester.
Civilization is not about violence, blood, sex and greed. It's my point of view. "Any actual links to back that up?" Please visit Myspace.com
What I wrote: "While generally it's just a standard, and can engaged in all different manners, I find it odd how vast humans range their version of value." You did read my whole post (and my former post concerning this)? My point was to say that generally, very earlier on it's considered 'life'. Now the definition and standards you believe in could be wide and ranging (concerning your morality), but they are indeed dependant on a standard which you create (or absorb from a sub-culture or in some people's case 'god'). That is the basis of it's subjectiveness. I wasn't referring to whether or not it should or shouldn't be done, but was exploring the interesting way in which we set subjective values. Then again, maybe some values aren't subjective...I'm leaving room for the mysticism of religion...perhaps there's some truth to it. A baby has brain waves as early as 6 weeks to 8 weeks; so you would be wrong about that assertion on brain wave only starting in the third trimester. But as you say, 'Any actual links to back that up?' I'll give the book and page number, but I'll leave that up to you. I'm sure you can confirm this by using Anthony's google method...lol. Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). H. Hamlin, "Life or Death by EEG," JAMA, Oct. 12, 1964, p. 120 Brain function, as measured on the Electroencephalogram, "appears to be reliably present in the fetus at about eight weeks gestation," or six weeks after conception. J. Goldenring, "Development of the Fetal Brain," New England Jour. of Med., Aug. 26, 1982, p. 564
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/ and here is a more biased link to read more about it http://eileen.250x.com/Main/Einstein/Brain_Waves.htm But either way the life of the woman and the good of society is still more important then the fetus. And a womans right to privacy and to deceide what occurs inside her own body also outweights the needs of the fetus. I think that the abortion issue is more based on peoples desire to control others and force them to be responsible for the end product of "immoral" behavior. Its very easy for someone who is living a comfortable stable life to cast stones at others. I personally think its wrong and actually disgusting but I think it should be legal and the womans choice. Although I do find it humorous that a bunch of men would think that it should be an issue they debate and deceide.
Isn't it, though? I've been away, so I'm going to try to address the numerous posts that have been discussed in my absense. I don't think we have the right to judge a woman for making what should be a personal decision. There's enough intolerance in the world already. I also agree with a comment that was made earlier, about how we cannot have it both ways. If you're going to allow an abortion to be had in certain circumstances like rape, then you need to allow it to occur in any circumstance. Whatever medical definition you believe, it's hard to find information that isn't biased, on either side. It's easy to locate information and statistics that mesh with your beliefs, but it's just as easy for me to find material that intersects with mine. Instead of society constantly trying to control others, why doesn't every focus more on themselves and their families and give it a rest? It will never happen, but more people need to subscribe to the "live and let live" motto, I think.
That is because you never have one :] Rape is also a personal choice. People's views shouldn't be force on others. If you don't agree with rape then don't do it. Just because you don't agree with something then you have no right to force your beliefs on others....Lol All you are is a cluster of cells too...can someone kill/harm you as well? When your parent commits a crime are you punished for it? Should we kill innocent babies for having a bad parent? It's funny that the vast majority of EVERYONE on this board is male. Just because you're male doesn't mean your opinion isn't valid. Have you ever looked at the Bible? It is full of God getting angry and killing individuals as well as large populations of people. Sure, christians are supposed to be forgiving, but the Bible supports the death penalty when it is appropriate. You are even supposed to cut off a woman's hand if she touches another man's testicles, even if she is supporting her hubby in a fight.
I guess you should have discussed that before you had sex . She can't force you to stick around and raise the kid, so why should you be able to force her to have one.
umm isn't the whole point of the new testament, that christ kind of makes a new pact with the people and disregards all the crazy terrible stuff in the first testament. Arn't people who beleive in the old testament, called Jews? Yeah I definitely think it comes down more to people wanting to control woman, more then concern for the unborn. How dare she not want to raise my "seed"! How many many men do you think insist woman have kids then go to jail, or take off and don't care for them?
Everybody has written so much about this topic... you now what Couldhart once said:" Personal opinions are like butts: everybody has them." I think that if you haven't got such an experince, u just cann't know what are u talkin' about... sry if i said smthng improper...
I can't actually believe I'm adressing these points, but here goes. Rape isn't apersonal choice, it affects another human being. A foetus isn't a human, it's a foetus. A spider is a collection of cells but only Buddists get upset if you kill them. Are you a vegan? For me it's not life that makes a human, it's a collection of experiences, memories, feelings, intelligence and consciousness. Again a foetus to me isn't human. Sometimes yes, when a parent is a drug addict ar cannot care for the child they are punished. When a child is unwanted they are punished. When a parent goes to prison and the child goes into care they are punished. It's better not to bring a child into a world like that at all. I beg to differ, a large proportion posting on this thread are women. Also the ones coming up with the most coherent and though out reasoning it seems. Besides it looks as if 65% of people agree abortion should be legal. That's not including Latehorn who posted in another thread that it should be legal for reasons such as rape despite stating in this thread that it shouldn't be legal. Yes, I have read the bible, I used to go to church and was/am a confirmed Christian. The bible supports the death penalty where appropriate? Like for having affairs and working on a Sunday? Very appropriate and deserved I say.
What is a "confirmed christian"? (never heard that term before) Huh? sounds like what ferret said and he didn't show where. (Adultery is mentioned for stoning- yes. )
Nothing about Sunday - Again, but we went over this before, that why I find it amusing. Maybe read what Jesus says about the Sabath day to get some understanding what the day is for. He breaks down the laws in more detail throughout His teachings. Back to your Christian bashing, sorry to have interrupted you.
It's not just an issue of using proper methods of birth control. An abortion ISN'T an issue to be taken lightly, as ContentWorth noted but there are many reasons people feel as if an abortion is the right choice. Honestly, what would be better? Bringing a child into the world where it wasn't wanted, wasn't able to be properly cared for, etc, etc, etc... or having an abortion? I know people think, "Okay, well you got pregnant now you're forced to deal with the consequences." Say nothing about the mother, but that isn't fair to the CHILD. I believe the father should be involved in the decision to an extent. But when it boils down to it, it IS the woman's body and it is her choice. Right or wrong, that really isn't our place to say. And joelviztech, no one is saying an opinion from a male isn't valid. But since it's a woman's issue, I don't feel that men should have any primary jurisdiction over what a woman can do with her own body.