Ok, I didn't even make it past this post to see you are probably one of the most ignorant people I have ever seen. It is a war in Iraq, yeah, innocent people are going to get hurt. I believe the insurgents are responsible for killing more innocent Iraqi's (suicide bombs ring a bell?) than any other entity in Iraq right now. Every US Military member that commits a war crime (i.e. intentional killing of innocent civilians) gets Court Martialed and sentanced to confinement for X amonut of years. Bush didn't cause this recession. A president can not control the spending of Congress. Especially considering this recession was coming back when Clinton was president. It is not his fault either. It is overspending and earmarks passed by the Congress. Bush is not a war criminal, or a criminal in any other way, unless, of course, you are part of the panel at a War Crimes Tribunal. Until then, stfu. BTW, Bush was not breaking any laws invading Iraq. First of all, National Defense comes before any and all "international laws." Second of all, the UN passed more than 10 resolutions, that said, basically, follow these or we will invade and oust you saddam. And guess what? Never obeyed, Bush was enforcing the UN resolutions, since most other countries don't have the stomach to back up their words. Have you been to Iraq since the invasion? Just wondering, because I have. US/NATO/UN military members do not, generally, go out and try to kill an innocent civilian, as a matter of fact, most of us go to great pains to keep from doing that, as we are all, for the most part, good, moral people. But, I can see your hatred is so deep you are blinded by it. Open your eyes. Pingpong, I support the initial invasion, and staying a bit afterwards. However, the Iraqi government have asked the US to stay longer. Otherwise, we would have been out a long time ago. Now, we have a good plan and I'm glad we're getting out of there. I agree with your post though. While I was deployed to Iraq we had the opportunity to sit down with Iraqi's from all over the country. From what I've read, seen, and heard, the Iraqi people are pretty much split down the middle of wanting the US to leave or not. So, guess what? That means that the majority is fast approaching that its time to leave, so it is a good thing that we are. But, most of what they said they disliked about the US Leaders was their hypocracy. However, no matter who we talked to, they all supported the actual military on the ground, because, they could tell that nearly every one of us actually cared about them truly being a democratic government and being free and able to make their own choices without fear of having a whole villiage gased (20 years ago, remember that?). However, I do not think it is our place to go cramming our government down others' throats. I'm the same way with religion, people need to stop trying to cram it down our throats. I wonder if the insurgents ever thought about the fact that if they stopped attacking people, sat back, and built up, let Iran keep giving them supplies and men, theUS would have been gone a lot sooner, and they would have had a better chance at actually doing anything? Edit: Iraq is not an occupation. Iraq is a soverign government, they make and enforce their own rules. The status of US/NATO forces is covered under a mutually agreed upon treaty, called the Status of Forces Agreement. As well as several other treaties. The Iraqi government has had the power to not sign and ratify the treaty each time it has come back up (usually each year).
Lonestar, we said teh same thing about Iran in the 1950's after we destroyed democracy there. We painted the Shah as a good guy when he was torturing and killing anyone who didnt approve of his actions. How do we know that these puppets in iraq are for democracy now? The current leader could , in the future form a partnership with iran because of shiit ties with iran. Im sorry but to me , a war fought over so many blatant lies sounds too much like a closet occupation where we go in and only allow the leaders to succeed that we want. Sure there was probably a vote, but like the 2 party system, was there much of a choice to begin with? No one is questioning that saddam was a tyrant. This is a closed case, but remember that when he was gassing his own people we we shaking hands with him and calling him a good ally. I really dont think our government is morally qualified to be a world policeman since there are so many injustices going on in this world. How come we dont attack these other rogue nations and take out there leaders because of their inhuman treatment of others? The reason is they dont have enough oil.
That oil bullshit, which is exactly what it is, is starting to annoy me. WHY THE HELL would we invade a country for oil, and then have so high of gas prices? 2+2 does not equal 8. Its bullshit. Yeah, there were a couple of lies thrown in there. But, hey, the UN Resolutions that Saddam ignored, with the promise of invasion if they are ignored, are always ignored. I completely agree with you on the fact we are not qualified to be world policemen. It's time to stop. It's time to focus on our own freaking country for a change, stop sending aid out to other countries, and start spending money wisely. Which is a forgotten past time in this country, with even the citizens. I guess we really can't expect much from a government, spending wise, when the people that elect them can't even manage their own finances. And we both agree overthrowing a democracy was a retarded ass thing to do. When will the government realize that 10 years after you help someone, they will be coming back to attack you. Taliban anyone? Iran anyone? The list grows all the time. Time to stop sending money to other countries, especially when so much of the UN"s fundings go to countries that vote against the US's interests. 2 Party system blows. It's not an occupation btw. I've been there. Believe me, we are in no way shape or form occupying their country. The Iraqi Army and Police are involved with just about every thing that we do. Glad we're getting out of there though, such a waste of time. We don't attack other country's because they are not a threat to our national security at this time. But, its time to bring everyone back to thae states. No more tours in Korea, lets get out of there. No more in Europe, lets get out of there. No mor in Kuwait or Iraq, or Afghanistan. Let these freaking country's do their own thing. The only reason Germany wants us there is so soldiers can spend their money there, with a horrible exchange rate. It's time to start thinking about ourselves for a change, really for ourselves, not trying to think for everyone else. Let the UN and NATO take care of things. Believe me, I'm pretty much in agreeance with you on a lot of things, although it doesn't appear to be. But, there were over 16 different things we went to war with Iraq for. 16!. Just because the media concentrated on one thing (WMD's, because they are sexy in the news) doesn't mean thatwas the ONLY thing. It would make no sense to have a closet occupation in Iraq. There is nothig gained from it, except HUGE amounts of debt. Unless, of course, Bush was getting paid on the side by someone with an interest to see them do a certain thing. Which, with today's government, I do not discount.
As I said before, Bush game him the freedom to be able to throw a shoe. Why didn't he try that with Saddam and see if his testicles were not fried for it. An while we are on the subject of war the whole reason for going down into Iraq was to find WMD's (whicch were never found) and free Iraqi's (thus the name Operation Iraqi Freedom). So you are right we should spread peace and democrecy around the world and that is what we did in Iraq.
Excellent post pingpong123, well said on all points. Even our (Australian) foreign minister (of the time) slipped up saying the oil played a part of the decision to go to war.
Well the reason why we have a better chace with the current leaders in Iraq is the fact that they have a working constitution similar to the one in the U.S in terms of structure. The P.M cannot go around the constitution without facing serious consequences.
Bushranger, just because your PM said the oil played a part in HIS decision, does not make it a part of ours. Worldman, there were more than just those 2 reasons. Not all of them have been released as they are still classified. One day they will and you will all see. But, not everyone in the world has access to the classified information. Some of us received a briefing before the invasion.
You made me LOL here, ha, ha, ha .... Abu Grahib jail crimes. Inmates were killed while being tortured, ....human righst abuses for many months in the notorious jail. Black Water gang was killing Iraqis without being held accountable till the killings became too much for the Iraqi government to cover up ... The only reason some soldiers got court martialed is because of PHOTO LEAKEGES and too much proofs against them.... Believe me you are so much out of touch from the truth that it will take you years if not decades to see what is obvious for the unbiased eye. Bush was the commander in chief. By all international and even US laws he is a war criminal, was he court martialed? He is responsible for the deaths of over 4,000 US service men and women. Plus tens of thousands injured. FOR NOTHINHG!!! The fact that you're defending the war criminal bush and his policies speaks volumes about you. If you believe you are Christian don't tell that anybody because that's gonna be a lie.
I'm not a Christian for one. Please, read Nehemiya's threads, you'll see that. Bush, broke no US Laws, nor any international laws that you can prove. Until you can, shut up. Bush isn't eligible for a Court Martial either, do some research. He is a civilian, not a military member. And, until you have worked for CID, as I have, which is the Investigative Body of the US Army that is charged with investigating all felony's (crimes with maximum punishments of over 1 year in confinement) you can not begin to understand how many people get court martialed because of actions in Iraq. Just because it is not released, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And all of those dead and injured US Servicemen/women volunteered, fully knowing the hazards and duty's of their chosen profession. I'm glad you thing me defending my Former Commander in Cheif speaks volumes about me. In the army, we have these 7 values, one of which is Loyalty. You speaking of matters which you have no clue of, except you personal opinions, speaks volumes about your character. Slander comes to mind right off the bat. Black Water employees have been indicted the whole time when they do things. Like I said, just because it is not released, doesn't mean it didn't happen. But, hey, your so anti US and anti Bush that you will never understand nor change your mind.
So that means that Tony Blair is also a war criminal. Ever read about what happened under the British controlled parts of Iraq?
Although I did find this incident highly amusing, I also think the sentence is justified. In fact I think they got of quite lightly.
Guys when did we find out about our governments operations in iran in 1953? Thats right, we didnt till much later and there was nothing we could have done about it. Its incrediblethat people still trust so easily these days. How many lies do we have to go through before people wake up and smell the coffee. Golf of tonkin? iran many other third world countries. Why do u think iran has a thecratic government? Do you really believe our government was singing kumbiya when they started putting this war into motion???????? No I havent been there but i know many chaldeans that were there. Where was our incredible compassion when saddam was gassing his own people, and torturing them in his jails. Where was our compassion when the shah of iran was killing off any opposition to his installed minority monarchy? You can rah rah and wave the flag, but the great albert einstein had something to say about nationalism. I used to have that quote in my messages. If It is not our job to police the world when our morality cup is totally full, then how can it be our job when our immorality cup isis so full? Oh yea your right if that shoe thrower threw that cup at saddam he would have been dead. Im not arguing that, but how does it differ from lying to the american people and getting us into a war? If you say it is our job to invade countries that have dictators then how can you possible morally explain that our cia has always favored dictators over democratic leaders thorughout the world. And what is your opinion about settlements being built around another countries internationally recognized land? Does that warrant also an invasion? Dont you see the pandoras box we open when we use the world policeman excuse. Were we policing Iran when we took out their only pro-democracy leader mossadegh and replaced him with a brutal dictator THE SHAH? Once that box opens , who will be able to close it? Absolute power corrupts how? Well , I think you guys get my point
It wasn't our PM, it was one of his ministers. He said the oil in Iraq would have only played a minor part in Americas decision, which made big big news here at the time. We went to war for you as we have to, not because we wanted to. The ANZAS treaty that we signed so the US will back us in war time goes 2 ways. We had to help you out in your immoral war for oil and by law we have to help you in future wars no matter who, what or where you decide to invade. I am not against the treaty, we need it in case Indonesia / Asia attacks us. I was not against backing up you guys in case of serious trouble. I was/am against the illegal, immoral, avoidable war in Iraq. I am FOR the Afghanistan/Taliban war and pray you find Osama ASAP. He's the guy you should of stayed after rather than divert yourselves after the oil while you had the whole world on side. When I say illegal I know that Bush first changed the law to protect himself & his cronies making once illegal things legal so in the US juducial sense of the word it was legal but most unbiased people do know that already and him doing that doesn't make it right. I'd love to see it put to trial in any other country but the USA. I believe our former PM Howard knew that there was something fishy going on. Most Aussies were against going to war and only a token force was sent to Iraq, to uphold the treaty and appease the USA. Was part of the briefing to confirm the many WMD they found? As if they would have told you 'we're after the oil' whether the generals knew that or not. The US was facing an oil shortage and Iraq had loads of it. The first thing they secured were the oil fields. Sounds pretty fishy to me.
I wonder if the gulf of tonkin soldiers got a briefing? Opps thats right, that incident was staged to get us into vietnam? Yep a former friend of mine who served his country loyally in that war as an assasin has probably passed away by now from the effects of agent orange. Maybe after we catch Osama we will learn the next time not to train people that can come back to haunt us. Gosh I sure hope Ron Paul runs again. People will eventually wake up.
I have to admit i didn't really like bush that much. He let power take him over. And as for the guy who through a shoe at him cant be condoled he was a world leader, But three years in jail is a bit to much if you ask me. But that's different country's for you. -Matt
We are not policing the worlds morality. In fact quite the opposite. We are lending to its decline especially with Hollywood. On the other hand it is the right of every free country to help those who are under tirany. Recent polls that came out show that the majority of Iraqi's think they are better off today then they were under Saddam's reign. What laws did he change so theyc couldn't prosicute him? Its quite funny because all those who are talking about Bush changing laws to get away with his crimes fail to notice Obama has cmpletely stepped over the constitution with his mandatory 90% tax on AIG bonuses. The constitution protects individuals from the government and yet Obama has trampled on the Constitution and gone after private citizens.
Bush can't change laws. Presidents can't change laws. It is Congress that changes laws. They are the legislative branch of the government. The create them. The executive branch enforces them. The judicial branch is in charge of making sure laws are constitutional and also enforcing laws. I served with Aussies while I was there, they seemed to support what they were doing there. War with Iraq was bound to happen sooner or later. You can call it illegal all you want. But no one is nor will stand trial, because it wasn't. You can call it immoral, but, we can all agree that all wars are immoral, so that fluff word does nothing. Obvously you are biased if you think that just because it's the cool thing to do. And please, don't act like I'm going to discuss a classified briefing on the internet. Please, I'm sure if you googled why the oil fields were secured you'd find the answer. It's common sense, but, I'll let you do the work for that one. And worldman, thats not the only way he's violating the constitution. He's failling to prove his eligibility to be a US President as outlined in the US Constitution.
I only wish I had the time you seem to have on your hands to post your propaganda jibberish. Are you sure you don't still work for bush? As a former cop & armed forces member yourself, I believe you do believe your own spin! How you can still support bush after what he's got you in to is truly incredible. I do note you're a gun enthusiast and you think an uprising against the Obama government is acceptable, so I don't put much creedence to any of your hateful posts. I do believe the Aussies you spoke to were soldiers trained to do their jobs and am sure they were happy to be there. Soldiers must like fighting, isn't that why they join up? My comment about most Aussies were against the war meant the civilian population, the 18 (out of 20) million people who don't like/want any unwarranted aggression. http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/ http://www.serendipity.li/iraqwar.htm http://www.historycommons.org/timel...on_of_iraq&general_topic_areas=preWarPlanning There's just a few of the millions of pages I found pointing out how & why the Iraq war was illegal. Note the last link has rumsfeld, swarzkof and other high ranking officials all pointing out that Iraq's oil will be used to pay for it. Is that what you wanted me to find? Take your blinkers off and see what you were really fighting for, OIL.
lol you are hilarious The average American that joins the military does it out of a sense of duty to give to the country. Not just to fight. Do you know what the mission of the Army actually is? It's to train to fight. Of course I believe an uprising against Obama is acceptable. It is the right of all Americans to overthrow their government, really all people, everywhere in the world, to overthrow their government should they be dissatisfied. I'm not just talking about Obama himself. I'm talking about the whole government. It's time to start over. I love your horribly anti Bush and liberal sources. Cracks me up! As a soldier, you still have the ability to think. That is actually stressed. As no situation is ever the same. You need to be able to think quickly and effectively. Having a war FOR oil is completely different than having a war and deciding to use oil as a way to pay for it. Which, didn't even happen. How can I support Bush? BEcause he rose to a crisis and excelled in his decision making. He did blunder it some. Letting Rumsfeld stay in charge of it with a strategy that simply was not working was retarded. And staying there for so long was stupid. But, your selfish self probably has 0 knowledge of the military, at least first hand knowledge. So all the things you've said mean nothing to me, other than proving your ignorance. And, did you notice how they said it was the National Security Plan? Of course invading Iraq was in the national security interests of the US.
We know that the intentions of our soldiers are good. It makes it all the more disgusting that a few group of people can have the power to use them for illegal wars and overthrowing governments? Lonestar, you still havent answered my question about iran 1953? What was the reason of taking out a peaceful prodemocratic , legally elected leader of a country and replacing him with a tyrant ? Have we ever appologized for this yet? Im sorry but i see the world as it is. There is no time for rah-rah and flag waving. How would you feel if china did a covert operation today and brought down our government and replaced with with a pro chinese leader? Ill tell you how you and me would both feel. We would both be going to war against the chinese. How do you think the ianian people feel about what we did. Iran isnt the only country we did this to. I can bring you a whole list of them thanks to colonel fletcher prouty who also served his country faithfully but saw that things had changed from the time he joined and the time that he resigned. Profit first , and if democracy can be had later , fine, but not at the expense of profit. I would venture to say that bush was one of the most liberal presidents of all time. There is nothing conservative over going to war over many lies. There is nothing conservative about spending like crazy. We have lost our way here in America as to what constitutes a liberal and what constitutes a conservative. The problem is fox news and other have defined what it means now.