You guys are a waste of time and server resources, I hope Shawn closes this propaganda bullshit down because the Republicans on this board are simple propagandist lunatics lead by GTech and Will Spencer! You guys are full of shit!
And we all know how valuable the time you spend sitting around worrying about server resources from a place you've been banned more times than the "Pledge of Allegiance" from elementary schools is.
You and your propaganda partners are a crime against this forum and this nation GTech, I for one am done with you and the P & R forums here, see you in the other forums man, I love you as a friend, but when it comes to politics you are a <snip> lunatic, you and Spencer both!
While Kerry was getting a purple heart, being exposed to war, adjusting his perspective, Bush was busy in the National Guard (I think he was defending Texas against either Oklahoma or New Mexico (oh yeah and partying and working in politics so he could leave early)---and his mentor Cheney was busy accumulating 6 draft deferments.
This is somewhat true! While kerry was putting himself in for purple hearts for self-inflicted wounds to get out of Vietnam early, Bush was serving the National Guard as many honorable soldiers have through the course of history. The sad part about when angry liberals bring up National Guard service is, they think it's dishonorable. Many men and women have served in the National Guard and it's an honorable part of our Armed Forces. But some suggest that serving in it is something to be ashamed of. Kerry had quite a few deferments as well. Just couldn't pull that last one off. How many did Clinton have? Service in any military branch does not give someone the right to sell out their country, no matter which branch they served in. Someone ought to let John Murtha in on this little secret.
Actually, missing your point a bit there... I had moved on from those specific numbers to general beliefs about honesty in government. Since I am assuming that your IQ is higher than the average soap dish, I can only guess that your resorting to anthony-like tactics of mixing up the topics was an attempt to cloud things... sorry if I'm wrong, but if not, please stop. One of him is enough. -Michael
It was a simple question that *could* have been answered in less space than the response you afforded. I try to keep questions simple and straight forward. No point in clouding up everything with shades of grey, eh?
Sorry GTech: I was around at that time. The US had a draft rather than an all volunteer army. The national guard was a way to avoid being drafted. More critically it was a way to avoid going to Vietnam. The US built its armed forces in Vietnam up to about 500,000 soldiers. I forget...something like 50,000 American Soldiers died over there. Not one of them was a member of the National Guard. During that period young men who didn't want to go to Vietnam used all sorts of methods to avoid the draft. Some methods involved draft dodging, some methods included leaving the country and emigrating to nations like Canada, some faked injuries, or did crazy things to make themselves ineligible for the draft. Some joined the National Guard. None of the National Guard went to Vietnam. The times and circumstances were very different than today. Joining the National Guard was very difficult. An abundance of young men tried to do that. It was a way to serve the nation but avoid the war. Equating the National Guard and reserves of this period in time is totally different than at that period. Serving the nation is a good thing. Its worthy to give back. There are many ways to do it. But equating National Guard Service during the 1960's and 1970's with National Guard Service at this time is one of the most misleading points anyone can make.
My dad was in Germany in the Army, does that may him a draft dodger too? Kind of being a jerk, but you make a statement that seems to be pointed directly at Bush's service in the national guard, so maybe give some specifics that relate to him on the subject that show whether this was or wasn't his reason for joining the guard. When did he enlist?
And suggesting National Guard service is anything other than honorable is dishonest. Suggesting the National Guard had no deaths is not true: http://www.archives.gov/research/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html Suggesting the National Guard did not serve is misleading: http://www.1800goguard.com/whatistheguard/whatis_history_vietnam.html This is what happens when people suggest that serving in the National Guard is somehow not honorable. Good men and women that *did* serve get put down for their service because people want to try and make Bush's service in the Guard to be somehow dishonorable. Now if Bush met with enemies (North Vietnam) of our country during war while still an officer to negotiate surrender and take action items back to an organization (VVAW) to act upon against our country in support of our enemy, his service would not mean anything either.
AC there is no point wasting your time trying to convince crooks. Ethical Questions About Diebold Personnel Jeff Dean, Senior Vice-President and Senior Programmer at Global Election Systems (GES), the company purchased by Diebold in 2002 which became Diebold Election Systems, was convicted of 23 counts of felony theft for planting back doors in software he created for ATMs using, according to court documents, a "high degree of sophistication" to evade detection over a period of 2 years.[1] In addition to Dean, GES employed a number of other convicted felons in senior positions, including a fraudulent securities trader and a drug trafficker.[2] In December 2005, Diebold's CEO Wally O'Dell left the company following reports that the company was facing securities fraud litigation surrounding charges of insider trading. [3] And these are the people in charge of your vote Gtech!
Anthony just takes this quote from Kerry to heart and follows it to the tee: "So I ask my fellow Senators, are we really that frightened of somebody's willingness to go out and be stupid? In the United States of America, you have a right to be stupid."--John Kerry, obviously referring to Anthony.
Suggesting that GWB is honorable, or took his enlistment seriously, or actually wasn't avoiding the draft, is dishonest as well. -Michael
But we see which one you call into question? What does that say about you? It says that as long as the subject is attacking Bush, even when dishonest, you will choose not to call it into question. I didn't say GWB is honorable, though now that you are dishonestly claiming I have, I will say it: GWB is honorable. I didn't suggest he did, or did not take his enlistment seriously, as you dishonestly suggest. Nor did I say he was or was not avoiding a draft like Clinton. Next time you want to source something, provide a link
I always like this one from Teresa Kerry: "I can't believe I married a second politician. I can't believe I married the first politician. He wasn't one when we met. I can't believe my family left Africa and came to this country. I can't believe I live in America, I can't believe I ever even married an American. And I can't believe we're embarked on this journey." -- Teresa Heinz-Kerry to gossip columnist Cindy Adams
Absolutely not Debunked. Remember, with a draft the armed services were far far bigger with many more soldiers than we now have. Soldiers served everywhere. But, as with Iraq the long term war in Vietnam began to have a souring effect on the American public. It was not like World War II. We were occupying a country and the initial reasons for why we were there were questioned. During the period of Vietnam, the National Guard was a way to avoid direct service in the active military. It wasn't as if you knew where you would be deployed if you went into the military. But the fear of being sent to Vietnam was such that many tried to join the National Guard because they knew it was one sure way to not have to go to Vietnam. There was lots of Press about how Clinton avoided going into the military. There were many techniques at the time. They were varied tremendously. Clearly there are big differences in perceptions in 3 examples; moving to Canada, being a conscientiousness objector, sometimes faking or creating an injury, continuing to get student deferments, and joining the National Guard. In fact the Guard was such a popular choice that there were waiting lists to get in. Yes there are differences in the choices young men made, but the results were all the same; any one of those actions kept you out of Vietnam. Now, it is different. Members of the Guard and the reserves are being sent to Iraq. On that basis the comparisons between then and now are just not accurate. But regardless of those points, Debunked, your dad was in the military and he served in Germany. Frankly I'd ask him about the times and concerns and his perspectives.
The link was above, sorry. http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2003/01/ma_217_01.html If your claim is that people are trying to make it something, then your claim is that it is not already that way. So sorry, no, I didn't quote you exactly. What I did was I extracted meaning and intent from your posts. So, since you are claiming that I must have been dishonest in my intent, as far as I can tell your calling me dishonest was again a slur because you don't have the balls to back up your points openly, and feel it is better to discredit my character than to argue intelligently. Did you word that in the way you did in the hopes that someone would misinterpret you as saying that you do believe he dodged the draft, giving you another opportunity to talk down to someone? Or do you truly believe he avoided it? -Michael