The situation may not be solvable. The only solution that will work is a Union of Palestine-Trans Jordan with Jordan, West Bank, Gaza and perhaps a 1000 km given to the Gazans from Sinai and Israel giving 1000km. Israel does not have the land to give for peace and remain a viable state. Another consideration is that majoriy of the Israelis are not zionists. They are refugees from North Africa and Arab States. With this in mind there needs to be a regional solution. Jordan — Area: 91,971 SQ KM Sinai Penisula 60,000 km² Israel — Area: 20,330 SQ KM West Bank — Area: 5,860 SQ KM Gaza - 360 square kilometers
The solution is available since very long, which is to end the illegal occupation. as for refugees from Arabian countries? let those supposed refugees speak themselves, can they? source maybe that's explain why there is no UN organization like UNRWA to help Israli refugees? not enough? Naeim Giladi: a Jew who been living in Iraq: more ...? this whole Israeli refugee myth, been refuted here: The Myth Of Jewish Refugees From Arab Land
I don't find any solutions in your post. The Arab countries need to do more to accept the Palestinian Refugees on their soil. At the minimum all the Palestinians born in the respective Arab countries should be granted citizenship. The US grants citizenship to Palestinians born in America. Why can't the Arab countries do the same? According to official Arab statistics 856000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s, mostly in the period 1948-1958 The Jews of Egypt and Libya were expelled while those of Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Lebanon and North Africa left due to physical and political insecurity.[4] Most were forced to abandon their property. By 2002 these Jews and their descendants constituted about 40% of Israel's population. The World Organization of Jews from Arab Countries (WOJAC) estimates that Jewish property in Arab countries would be valued today at more than $300 billion and Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
Actually Rhode Island is the smallest state not vermont but hey whats in vermont anyways I say let them have it.
The solution does not have to be a long post, it is very simple, and there is a UN resolution for it, end illegal occupation, that's it all the propaganda by Israel, is to find an excuse not to end occupation, if occupation did not end, there will never be peace, the Jews left Arab countries, either because they been given bribes by Israel, or because Israel committed terrorist attacks in some Arabian countries to scare them into leaving and go to Israel, since it was a illegally new established and they need population, workers, capitals...etc the discussion was about whether they are refugees or not, of course they are not, beside refugee means to go away from the area where there is fight, and go back to their homes and properties when the fight ends, what is stopping them now from going back?
Imad, I have come across many many stories saying the Jews DID originally own this land. Whilst researching more about this topic, I found this breakdown of the 6 day war interesting... On May 16, 1967, Cairo Radio announced: "The existence of Israel has continued too long. The battle has come in which we shall destroy Israel." On the same day, Egypt demanded the withdrawal of UN forces that had been stationed in Gaza and Sharm el-Sheikh since 1957. Three days later, the UN announced it would comply with the Egyptian demand. On May 19, 1967 Cairo Radio said: "This is our chance, Arabs, to deal Israel a mortal blow of annihilation..." On May 23, 1967 Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser declared his intention to block the Strait of Tiran to Israeli shipping, thus effectively severing Israel's vital trade links with East Africa and Asia. Israel replied that under international law this was a casus belli, an act of war. On May 27,1967 Nasser said that "our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel." On May 30,1967 Jordan's King Hussein placed Jordanian forces under Egyptian control. Egyptian, Iraqi, and Saudi troops were sent to Jordan. On June 1, 1967 Iraq's leader added his thoughts: "We are resolved, determined, and united to achieve our clear aim of wiping Israel off the map." On June 3, 1967 Cairo Radio hailed the impending Muslim holy war. On June 5, Israel, surrounded by Arab forces likely to attack at any moment, launched a preemptive strike. Milhemet Sheshet Hayamim - The Six Day War begun. Yes - within six days, Israel had defeated its adversaries and, in the process, captured land on the Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian fronts. Shortly after the Six-Day War, Israel indicated its desire to negotiate peace with its Arab neighbors. While Israel was unprepared to relinquish the eastern half of Jerusalem. It was willing to exchange the seized territories for a comprehensive settlement. But Israel's overtures were rebuffed. An unmistakable response came from Khartoum, Sudan's capital, where Arab leaders issued a resolution on September 1, 1967 announcing the three noes: no peace no recognition no negotiation Post found here: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread186064/pg3 It includes links to more info. @Imad: your thoughts on this are?
My very first thought is that you are dishonest, and not the neutral who wants to know or learn, but who ask questions to imply something, in my region of the world, this is considered dishonesty, and coward. from asking a question to imply "did the Jews own the land first?"" even though you got an answer before you ask it, you asked it, and also got a short answer, quickly you went to look for something about Arabs to post it as a proof that they started 1967? despite I showed you that it was started by Israel... the radio can say whatever, this is a part of a psychology war between the two, did you know what Israel radio and Israeli officials were saying then? Egypt sent it's force to Sinai because there were clear signs that Israel was preparing for war, Egypt knew they can't start an attack, and they do not have the ability to start an attack, yet they were telling them, that if they started an attack, they will regret it, there was a visit by Egyptian vice president scheduled to Washington to meet president Johnson, to reduce the tensions, and reach an agreement about tyran straight, which was not important for Israel contrary to what they made it look like ( that without Eilat port, Israel will end), Eilat port was almost abandoned in there were witnesses from UN that they did not see any ship there in 2 and half years, and 95% of Israel trade by sea was done from Heifa airport.. did you check these facts and much more before you go running to look for something that can be used to support that image in your mind you have about Arabs? that they are angry, violent, like wars ..etc? and there are much more, that's why I encourage you always to research, find info by yourself, I can give you much more info, but what's the use when your mind and heart both are blocked, and you are interested in one thing, "to keep your love of hating the Muslims and Arabs alive"?
imad - you're wrong. I am not here to go against you at all. I really do not understand the full situation and am trying to learn. As far as I know the Jews DID own the place first and you did not admit that so you are the one with an agenda it would seem. You asked me to research more so I did. I typed 'who owned israel in 600AD' and Google gave me many answers - ALL of which said the Jews were there first & the land was taken from them a long time ago - just like the English (my ancestors) did to the Australian Aborigines. I cannot understand why it matters what the place is called, why can't you all just live in peace. Seeing you are getting upset, I will not aim future questions towards you. It seems you are the one with an anger problem, I love you all and just want to see peace everywhere! Why do you think I do not like muslims, I have no problem with Muslims or Arabs and have no idea why you would think that, let alone bring it up. Can you not debate something without calling someone a dishonest coward? Can you apologise or is that not in your vocabulary?
you made a search for "who owned Israel 600 AD" and you say you are neutral, you are neutral when you make a search about the history of Jews in holy land, and read both sides of the story, if you did then you would have probably came across this site? it's not about the place name, it's about occupying else land by force, and expelling 800,000 from their property. I would apologize if I am convinced that I was wrong, but I am not.
I have now read the whole page of the link you sent. It is very well written & explains your side of the debate very well. You do have a fair case and should send others who ask that same link. But as a dishonest coward, noone is likely to listen to me. Be a little nicer to the next bloke that asks.
you are right, and I apologize for calling you dishonest, and for implying coward, I should have first showed the other side but I was under the impression that no matter what I show it would fall on deaf ears, I apologize again, and thanks for taking the time to read all.
Bushranger, I would not presume to apologize for Imad, but I would like to say that this debate has been very heated and partisan for the past few weeks, and dishonesty and cowardice are pretty tame accusations around here. I understand your confusion; both sides of the Israel/Palestine land dispute have built a very strong claim, depending on which set of facts you choose to look at. So the active debaters here have gotten in the habit of identifying partisans. We have all forgotten that there are some people still neutral, making up their minds, leaning in one or another direction, or trying to see the merits of both arguments. This issue is the Gordian knot of Middle Eastern conflict. Practically the whole world is tied up in it. Everyone has a pet solution in which someone else pays the bill. The solution? I think that separatism is not the way. The carved-up map that currently stands has no future for the people in the region. The 2 million in the West Bank and 1.5 million in Gaza must be given full voting rights within the government of Israel. A new government, secular, and non-preferential, must handle the difficult task of quelling violence in the region through fairness. As many posters have pointed out, Jews and Muslims have co-existed with friendliness for many centuries in the past. The languages, customs, religions, and grotesque patriarchies are cut from the same cloth. If the US and UN were to pay for non-violent economic development and fund programs to integrate the Palestinian and Israeli people instead of military aid, we might see progress. Military aid funds militarism. Agricultural aid builds farms and workers who are too busy eating to fight. Imagine if Israel's government were dominated by social workers instead of veterans?
Apology accepted thanks imad. Now let's go blow up some Jews together! Okay, that was a joke & a sick one at that! But seriously... Your comment of 'end the illegal occupation' - how would that be done then?
@amanamission thanks for joining in and your explanation of events. I've been here a while (DP) but only recently strayed from B/S/T - I do like discussing religion & politics so my next stop was here! Do I understand your suggestion is to take Palestine/Israel & make them one country? Then have all inhabitants vote for a 'new' party in free & fair elections? If so, won't the Palestinians & Jews still want/need a place to call their own?
Wants and needs are beside the point, although for the conflict to be settled, both sides will need to be satisfied. The people need peace, and justice. A place to call their own...only nationalists need this. Some extremists will always oppose any peace plan. Both the Palestinians and Israelis (the majority of whom are second+ generation) have a claim to the land. These claims are mutually exclusive. So we look to King Solomon. He dealt with the same dilemma. We see that both sides are unwilling to stop tearing up the baby. So it must be given up to adoption. I don't expect such a proposal to be popular with either side, frankly...this is a "forum ideal" that I put on the table in case events do make it practical. A new constitution in Israel, which made room for all the people of the three faiths that regard the land as sacred, would be the best course. Perhaps an ecumenical council composed of religious leaders of all three faiths could manage the government in trust while democratic elections, monitored by the UN, are arranged. The name and flag are probably non-negotiable, but I see no reason why any democracy would show a preference for one segment of the population. The new flag should picture a dove with an olive branch.
I m amazed, what so hard in ending illegal occupation? and why people do not see in it a solution, and keep asking how? how?? easy.. withdrawal of military forces from both West Bank and Gaza, dissemble illegal settlements, that's it, if settlers do not want to leave, then they agree to be citizens in the coming Palestinian state, if they like it, they can stay, but not above Palestinians, and also not below them, they will be citizens like others, same for Arabs in Israel, if they are sick of Israel, they can move to Palestine, if not they can stay, and do not tell me it will be hard, because we have seen how settlers resisted in Gaza .. at the end they left Gaza, they came after money and bribes from Israel, so if they offered them other bribes in 1948 territories, I m sure these nasty settlers will think about them and many will move, the US tax payer can fund it, they already funded many wars and killing, so why not fund for peace this time? if both US and Israel are serious about a solution, they will solve it, but unfortunately they are not, as long as the Arabs is the part who get killed, oppressed, massacred, they are ok with it.
Well there's 2 solutions that, as an outsider, sound workable to me. Where can I find a decent map showing the lands we are discussing? It should be an easy to read map to help me understand what & where the Palestine / Israel border is 'supposed to be' according to the 1948 treaty & showing which land entails the illegal occupation.
Oh my God! - is that serious? No wonder you're fighting to keep what little is left. I find that incredible! Truly! How can that be? What is the population of Palestine? What is the population of Israel? I am truly shocked by that map!