I'm going to disregard discussing who's right or who's wrong here. I just want to address this one argument that seems to be throw around to justify every civilian killed in these terrible wars. First of all Hamas doesn't got all that weaponry the Israel's got. They some crappy inaccurate missles, ak-47s, homemade explosive and maybe a couple sticks and stones lying around too. You get my point. There is no way that Hamas can even fight a war if they are expected to just all group together in a circle and march forward. They would just be blown away by some airplane up in the clouds. It would a suicide mission without the mission. The only way they can fight a war or retaliate is using guerrilla warfare. So before using the word "cowards" to describe them maybe consider the term not a a "complete idiot" to be more appropriate. Now of course not being a coward doesn't make you right nor does being brave does. This is the question that needs to be raised. You got one side blaming Hamas for hiding behind civilians, and the other blaming Israel for dropping a bomb on them. Both seem to agree that civilians killed are bad and wrong, but who's to blame here? To put it into perspective, if we take on Israels perspective where Hamas are the bad guys. Let's say a group of gangster/thugs hold up a building with a bunch of civilians and demands something. The police come, they want to neutralize the thugs. The easiest way is probably blow the building apart and just kill everyone inside. The question is would it be right? Even if it's not intentional, when you have causalities this high with UN workers being killed, you got to do a bit of rethinking. If this many people are going to be killed during your air strikes, is it right to still do it. I just wanted to bring this up because this argument to justify the killing of civilians is just not logical.
You do realize the situation is more complicated than just a couple of thugs in a building? Hamas is a terrorist organization that shoots rockets to another country, and is also acting as the government of Gaza Strip. It's an act of war. Do you seriously expect Israel not to respond? or better yet, do you expect them to respond softly so their own soldiers will die? Their rockets aren't so crappy now. They've got rockets that can reach up to 40 kilometers, and these things are powerful. The reason not a lot of people have died is simply because Israel has an alarm system. When a rocket is launched, the entire city will go in this massive alarm, everyone runs for their lives and finds cover. It's still an act of war. The fact that Israel can defend it's civilians doesn't mean it shouldn't respond. It just means it can defend it's civilians while responding. You also need to take into consideration that the gaza strip is a highly populated area where people are literally everywhere. This is urban fighting, and civilians will get hurt - that's a fact. The only question we need to ask ourselves is really who's fault is it. There's going to be people saying "oh but Israel has a siege over gaza" - these people need to check what caused the siege (yeah, guessed it right - rockets have been fired so Israel cast a siege in order to make them clear that they should fire rockets, but that didn't help, so they had to go into a ground offensive). There's going to be people saying "oh but Israel stole land it's an evil country" - these people need to check what caused Israel to gain these lands (In general - Arab countries started a war on Israel, Israel won, and then they said that it steals land). There's going to be people saying "oh but Israel caused refugees and stole cities" - these people need to check the UN 1947 partition plan that the Arabs rejected and then started a war against Israel (which Israel won - and then you had refugees) There's going to be people saying that the Israelis started fighting before 1947 in 1936-1938, these people need to look at These riots that Arabs started and killed Jews, or the 1936-1939 Arab riots, or the 1929 Arab riots, where the Arabs simply attacked Jews because they managed to get a bigger economy than them (13% growth per year while the arabs had around 6%-7% growth). So really, before you start saying "Oh but Hamas only has AK47's" you should ask yourself why the hell you're trying to make us feel sorry for a terrorist organization that teaches his kids to be like this, and grabs people of the street as human shields like this when there's sniper fire on them. Let's not forget the fact that the top Hamas officials are currently hiding in a hospital basement, using the civilian population as a human shield. Let's not forget Hamas is also terrorizing the Palestinian people, stealing humanitarian aid from them, and also shoots people on weddings.
So that's your excuse for killing civilians? It's a war so it's ok to kill them? Sometimes I wonder why do you even bother to spread that funny "the hide behind civilians" propaganda BS when majority of you simply justify killing civilians: "they voted for hamas so now they will pay..." Your post is full of nonsense but this one is particular big: I can only say one thing to this: ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa Seriously, do you really believe in something like that?
LOL! Let me get this straight, When Hamas shoots rockets toward civilians on purpose and admits it - you ignore it When Israel fights back and also kills civilians because it just happens - you say they're satan. go learn about the Gaza strip and see how tight it is, then you'll realize that killing no civilians is tough in a war. I never said it's the only reason, as there were also crazy religious leaders preaching about killing Jews, but that was a part of it. You still can't make a valid point, all you do in your posts is go "AeHAUEhaeuhUEHUHeauh you funny!!! you have propaganda!!!!" And yet I back all my evidence with sources. P.S: Don't shove words to my mouth. I never said that, and I'm very aware of the fact that the Palestinians are caught between two forces. I do understand why you're justifying Hamas though, as you said you were in a similar situation and you feel related to their situation, but you really gotta snap out of it and realize that this isn't Croatia and the situation is different.
I never said anything about satan. Did I? Again, we agree on that so why the hell you have that lame excuse "they hide behind civilians" all the time? It's heavily populated area and if you gonna use so much fire power of course you gonna kill innocent people. It's funny how far you are willing to go to prove that BS posting "evidences" like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TejVJWSTTpY I mean, cmmon! In first clip guy holding a kid and he doesn't look like he is under any kind of fire! In second part there's shooting going on and there's kid in the middle of the street. And then we see armed dude running, grabing kid and carrying him to safety and you proclaim that using kid as human shiled!!! I mean, cmmon!!! A guy grabed him and get him to safety!!! Actually your points are nonsense so how do you expect to someone answer on them! You know, like that one about no single refugee before Arab-Israeli war in 1948. It's simply absurd! And now this one! What kind of "evidence" you posted? Are you serious? Show me where does it says what you claim! Your posts are nothing more than zionist propaganda. You probably have that in your school program. In all of your posts you justifying killing of civilians because of hamas. Read some times what you post. Period. And where the hell did I justify hamas?!? Care to quote that?
And I never said anything about "they voted for hamas so they'll pay for it..." . Did I? Again, we agree on that so why the hell you have that lame excuse "they hide behind civilians" all the time? It's heavily populated area and if you gonna use so much fire power of course you gonna kill innocent people. He's grabbing the kid so they won't shoot him because he's holding a kid! Alright, let's say that I'm lying. Show me refugees that weren't caused by the Palestinian \ Arabic side being aggressive first Where the hell did I say I'm justifying killing civilians? I'm saying it's happened because it's a clusterfuck there. You keep saying Israel is wrong, so you're justifying Hamas. Or what else are you saying?
A lot of people, like me, care about the innocent people being killed. But you purposely assume that if we're not taking Israel's side, we must be Hamas supporters. Not only you assume it, but you use it against anyone with whom you don't agree. As I said in another thread about Hamas hiding behind civilians: They also hide in ambulances, UN buildings, UN observer posts, etc. And they possess children, Red Cross volunteers, women waving white flags, old people and UN staff.
I already showed you this in this post, but you keep spreading propaganda hoping somebody would pick it, I will repeat it again not for you because I know no matter how many times somebody showed you, you will keep repeating the same lies over and over again because there is nothing in truth that does not condemn the illegal state of Israel: source and more now you will cry propaganda as usual without debunking or refuting like browntwn does, but I trust that anybody who is really interested in truth would verify the info mentioned there and will find they are 100% true
you are right, I would add that Hamas members been also hiding before Hamas been established, in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, West Bank, Gaza, and in every person who says that Israel has no right to exist as an aggressor, terrorist and apartheid regime that the people all over the world feel sick of it's crimes and of their destabilizing world peace since they been established illegally, and in every Palestinian who is defending his own people, or who calls for liberating occupied Palestine.
Gimme some time to check your posts. The kid is in the middle of street while shooting is going on. A dude grabing kid and gets him to safety and you use that to prove how he used kid as human shiled! Incredible! Actually you clearly said that there were no refugees until 1948. war and I proved you were wrong. Now you claim another nonsense. You keep saying that every single time when there's disscusion about killed Palestinian civilians. Saying that Israel doing something wrong doesn't mean that hamas doing something right. Not at all.
again Hamas hides behind civilians , I think those Hamas hide every where you may think off I sometime see some Hamas in DP hiding between threads and posts and sometimes they hide in forum upper corner , I hope Israel don't come here and bomb this forum because a lot of members from different counties will die or at least give us a warning so we can log out
Oh wow, a very valid source.. I'm still waiting for answers regarding the 1920 Arab riots, the 1929 Arab riots, and the 1936-1938 Arab riots. P.S: That'e before 1948
I expected that, this page though is not the source, they included the source for each info they have there, so you can verify and check, I will send them your suggestion about putting some mickey mouse and other cartoons to make it more convincing for you, or maybe as Lemon116 did here, to add some bikini pictures to add creditability to the contents they have there, but would this change the fact that these info there are 100% true? the riots you mentioned also been answered on these forums, but I like now how you transferred from 1948 to before, and I know you will keep going back to 2000 or 3000 years ago to find an excuse for the crimes Israel and the Zionists have committed since before 1948 till these days, the world now can no longer accept such terrorist regime to destabilize world peace and provoke wars not only in occupied Palestine, in 1914 Jews in Palestine were 7% of the total population, whom lived in peace there with the rest Muslim and Christians, and of these 7% many came in 19th century seeking refugee from the antisemitism they faced in Russia, the riots started after the Zionists declared their project to occupy Palestine in 1897, and after Balfour declaration in 1917, so you can't look at these incidents as (hate of jews) despite Zionists always LOVE to portray it like that to blind the audience from what is really going on, there have been investigations also done for these incidents, one of them is about the 1929 revolt, done by British, and in this investigation, they mention 1920 and 1921,, here it is for you in short it says, both Arabs ( Muslim and Christians) and Jews, lived in peace there till the Zionists came, then peace was over, till these days.
"The Zionists delcared their project to occupy Palestine", you're trying to use the most harsh grammer to make it look like they're satan's people. The Jews were hunted across all of the world (Not as harsh as in WWII, but you know what antisemitism means), and then the Jews were split into several groups 1. One said that they should ignore the antisemitism and just live peacefully across all of the world as it serves no real harm 2. The other said that antisemitism will always happen and that the Jews are unwanted, so they should form their own country and live with themselves to avoid antisemitism. They were sick of being hunted. The first group I think still says the holocaust didn't happen, and the second group is now what you call Zionists. Those who want to live in their own country. In 1917 they got the "OK" in the Balfour deceleration, and the Arabs were pissed. Look how many countries the Arabic people have, including your own Jordan where Palestinians should really live, and yet you still pick on the 6 million Jews who want to live in a country of their own, bought land there, developed it, got the Arabs pissed on them and welcome to Gaza 09'.
Europe is big, too. I'm sure the French won't mind if you went to France and made them go to Spain, Germany and other European countries. Look how many countries the European people have!
not sure what are you trying to say, there was antisemitism in Europe at that time yes, so they moved to here, which might mean there was no antisemitism here at that time, now according to the illegal state of Israel, there is antisemitism here, and no antisemitism in Europe, does that mean the Zionists will soon pick a country in Europe to steal it so they can get rid of the "Arabian antisemitism" I have refuted your propaganda about Balfour declaration, and what "pissed" the Arabs, and I also proved that Palestine was not empty or desert when the Zionists decided to steal it, get back to these posts, until you prove they were lies or wrong, then there is no need to keep repeating already debunked Zionists propaganda.
Lets compare immigration to a land that isn't an established country, buying properties there and developing it to "picking a country and stealing it in europe". Oh wait, that's just what you did. I love the fact that you just choose a bad word and staple it on something different. It's like taking a cellphone and calling it a microwave. Immigrating and buying lands isn't stealing. It's what people did, especially in the in the 20th century.
you are no longer giving sources, because you yourself know that what you say is not true, you should stop trying to insult readers intelligence, because it does not make you look better, I know that immigration and buying lands are not stealing, but immigrating to a country where it's people do not want you, its considered illegal, in 1947 total lands owned by Jews in Palestine was 7% the rest of course has been stolen after committing one of the worst crimes in history.