Your avoiding my question. Why did the israeli government create hamas? Even the former usa ambassador talked about it as well as Rabin. The question is when hamas is gone who else will be created in its place?
I'm not avoiding your question. The Israeli government didn't create Hamas, it helped it gain balance in the 70s against the PSO in order to achieve "balance" there and hopefully get rid of the PSO. Little did they know that Hamas would become what it is nowdays. Same thing goes with Al Qaida. The US government helped it grow when they were fighting the Soviets, and look what happened now. Does that mean we need to do nothing about Al Qaida? No. That means that the USA should learn from it's mistakes and never do that again - like Israel, and at the same time work on tearing down those organizations. And yeah, I totally agree about this part: No one can really know, it's like asking what will Obama do when Bush is gone. All we have to do is sit tight and make sure we're doing all the right moves, but for that to happen we really do need USA's help.
Another falsehood again. there are many people within both israel and palestine that want peace but those efforts have been continually underminded by the iraeli government and hamas. Interesting dont you think, and if it wasnt for the israeli government hamas wouldnt be here today. Alqaida should have never been funded and supported to fight the soviets. There were many non religious fanatic groups out there that could have done the fighting. Its curious why we chose alqaida and why israel chose hamas since they could fight the plo all by themselves as they had the superiority in weapons and technology. Aarafat himself was very corrupt but like i said Rabin was the true hero here who reached out to the palestinian people to make peace even from a position of strength. http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2002/2902isr_hamas.html Speaking in Jerusalem Dec. 20, U.S. Ambassador to Israel Daniel Kurtzer made the connection between the growth of the Islamic fundamentalist groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Israel's promotion of the Islamic movement as a counter to the Palestinian nationalist movement. Kurtzer's comments come very close to EIR's own presentation of the evidence of Israel's instrumental role in establishing Hamas, and its ongoing control of that organization [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]According to the Dec. 21 Israeli daily Ha'aretz, Kurtzer made these extraordinary statements at a seminar on religion and politics sponsored by Oz V'Shalom-Netivot Shalom, a largely Anglo-American organization that promotes peace between Israelis and Palestinians. Rabbi Dr. Aharon Lichtenstein, the head of Har Etzion Yeshiva in Alon Shvut, who is an active advocate of a just regional peace, also spoke. Kurtzer said that as a result of the growth of Islam at the expense of education, there are now Palestinians who are "determined terrorists that use religious beliefs in a perverted way to appeal to the masses."[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]This statement is extraordinary given the fact that Kurtzer is a very senior diplomat, having held the post of Ambassador to Egypt just prior to going on to Tel Aviv. He is also an Orthodox Jew who is not shy of criticizing the extreme anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic views held by certain Arab circles. But Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon rarely grants the United States' highest representative in Israel an official audience.[/SIZE][/FONT] The ambassador's comments are an acknowledgment of what any serious Middle East observers knows: Hamas has always been seen as a tool by which Israel could undermine the nationalist movement [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]To the Italian daily L'Espresso, Arafat laid out the reasons for this support. "Hamas was constituted with the support of Israel. The aim was to create an organization antagonistic to the PLO. They received financing and training from Israel. They have continued to benefit from permits and authorizations, while we have been limited, even to build a tomato factory. Rabin himself defined it as a fatal error. Some collaborationists of Israel are involved in these [terror] attacks," he said. "We have proof, and we are placing it at the disposal of the Italian government."[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]One might ask: Why should Israel promote an Islamic movement which later turns around and attacks it? How could the Israeli secret services be taken in by a Yassin? They weren't. The simple fact is, that the stated policy of Hamas is simply the flip side of Sharon's "Greater Israel" policy that refuses to seek a territorial compromise. The Hamas charter in 1988 stated, "The land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations, and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it.... Peace initiatives, the so-called peace initiatives, are all contraray to the beliefs of Hamas, for renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion." In this rhetoric there is no room for a state of Israel—as there is none for a state of Palestine in Sharon's "Greater Israel."[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]Hamas has a peculiar organizational structure which contrasts sharply with that of the PLO. While within the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas exists as a broad political movement, its militant wings, the Izza-Din Al Qassam and Islamic Jihad, split-offs from the organization, are administered totally separately. These latter organizations, which are responsible for the attacks, are under the control of leaders who operate from abroad. Their offices are in London, where the group's magazine, Falatin Al Muslimah, is based; Jordan; Syria; and the United States, particularly in Virginia and Texas. Although Arafat has periodically tried to bring the popular base of Hamas into the Palestinian fold, the foreign-based military leadership has always opposed him.[/SIZE][/FONT] This bifurcation dovetails with Sharon's strategy of launching brutal attacks against Hamas targets, in order to elicit the equally brutal response from Islamic Jihad and the Izza-Din Al Qassam. Thus Arafat, and diplomatic goals, are undermined, and the fires of civil war within the Occupied Territories are stoked [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]The Anti-Oslo Terror Campaign Begins [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]The Oslo Accords marked the first glimmer of hope for a resolution of the Middle East conflict. And, the first suicide terrorist attack aimed at destroying it was not launched by Hamas or Islamic Jihad or another Palestinian faction. The first suicide attack was launched on Feb. 25, 1994, by Israeli terrorist Baruch Goldstein, when he entered the Mosque of Hebron and killed 50 Muslim worshippers as well as himself. Goldstein was a member of Kach, the terrorist organization founded by the late Meir Kahane, who also founded the Jewish Defense League in the 1960s in the United States. Kach, which is well connected to Sharon, is on the official U.S. State Department list of terrorist organizations.[/SIZE][/FONT] [/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]The unprecedented massacre was calculated to set the stage for a suicide bombing campaign by Hamas and its split-off, Islamic Jihad, over the next year. In fact, it set into motion the "cycle of violence" that has yet to end. The Goldstein attack came at precisely the point when Israeli Prime Minister Rabin and Arafat began the formal implementation of the Oslo agreement which envisioned the establishment of a Palestinian state by 1998. The first Hamas-linked suicide attacks did not start until two months later, in April 1994, when Rabin and Arafat signed the agreement for the establishment of the Palestinian National Authority. The agreement called for the conduct of free elections throughout the territories—which would eventually establish the international legitimacy of the Arafat-led government.[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular][SIZE=-1]But despite this terror campaign, which lasted for months under a massive crackdown by Arafat's security forces, the Rabin-Arafat alliance, although seriously weakened, was not broken. This alliance was finally broken with Rabin's assassination by an Israeli, on Nov. 5, 1995.[/SIZE][/FONT]
So where does Israel's unilateral disengagement plan fit into the conspiracy theory of Israel attacking itself through a militant Islamic proxy?
All right, I'll bite. This has been used several times to demonstrate that the Israeli government is equally unfair to Jewish settlers...that the government is blind to race and distriubutes its harsh control over scarce land with justice. First of all, the Israeli settlers were offered fair compensation for their homes. I have not seen a similar offer made to displaced Palestinians, nor do I expect to see reparations for properties destroyed during the current attacks. Second of all, Israeli settlers in the West Bank and Gaza presented a security risk, in that their presence precluded all-out invasion, should that become desirable. Imagine the current attacks if there were sizable Jewish settlements in Gaza! That the IDF was harsh to the holdout settlers only shows that the government of Israel sees people as pawns. Like most repressive regimes, Israel mistreats not only its large racial minority, but internal dissenters and foreign protesters as well. RIP Rachel Corrie and the victims on both sides of this unequal war.
Oh god, you're the "Animal activist" of the Palestinian - Israeli conflict. Just like Animal activists protest against using Animals to test new medicine that could save lives, you're acting as if the world is pink. Life's not fair - grow up. Israeli settlers in Gaza strip were the reason Hamas and other organizations shouted at the world that people are taking their land away from them. Israel decided to remove it's people from there so that it would be better for the Palestinians. So you're basically against Israel no matter what they do - If they have settlers there, that's bad because it's the territory of the Palestinians, but if they remove them - they're bad people who use force. Hamas is the current government of Gaza Strip, Hamas is shooting rockets toward Israel, Hamas is using civilian territories (Mosques, Universities, Civilian buildings, even UN Ambulances) in order to attack Israel. Hamas is also receiving humanitarian financial aid from other countries, so they should use that money to repair the damages they caused. Shooting rockets toward another country is an act of war. Hamas has been shooting rockets to Israel for 8 years. - Get that into your pink "Anti war" little head.
Why hasn't there been compensation for Arab properties confiscated within Israel, properties bulldozed in the occupied territories, compensation for deaths of innocent civilians... and by the way, I am also an animal rights activist. Interesting that you note the consistency. I am in favor of treating humans at least as well as animals, however. Please look at this entire thread before you justify Israeli incursions into Gaza again. http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=1176131 I guess my bleeding heart just thinks this is a HOLOCAUST
Or it could just be used to demonstrate that Israel withdrew from one of the disputed areas because they are willing to make concessions for peace. The first priority of a sovereign nation is to protect and serve its people. Not compensating their own citizens would only lead to more internal unrest. Ah, so the sneaky jews forced jewish evacuation of settlements in gaza just so they could box in the palestinians and kill them. But first they'd have to create an islamic terrorist organization to act as their proxy to provide them a pretense for killing the innocents. I get it! Diabolical! This is another evil zionist plan that has been gestating since before the zionists first concieved of hamas. Internally it's probably refered to as the Create(Hamas), Evacuate, Annihilate plan. Hamas, who wants nothing short of Israel to get the F out of the middle east, has been shooting rockets at Israeli citizens for years, hence provoking this, and when Israeli finally responds they cry about Israeli murdering their people. Now who is using people as pawns? And Israel treats its own people far better than any other country in the middle east. In most middle eastern countries you wouldn't have the open dissent against the government that Israel has from its own people.
The tough thing about debating on Israel is that you have to debate not only facts(which is not that hard) but you have to debate conspiracy theories as well. If the Israelis make any concessions then according to some it must be only part of some greater diabolical plan to oppress and kill.
It would be funny if not so absurd and true. There are people here who claim the Holocaust was a zionist plot. Some people are just dumbasses.