I personally think that's pitiful. Human beings shouldn't need a threat of being punished by a God or going to Hell to act like a decent human being. What does that say about the human race if we are only decent human beings because we are being forced to under threat of punishment? And it bothers me that each religion basically tells people that if they are good, then they will get some sort of reward. Doesn't that make us selfish bastards if we are good just to get the reward and serve our own needs? I mean, this is how I train my dog (do something positive, get a cookie), and I just think it's sad that we have to act like dogs to treat each other with the respect we should all have as human beings.
I think you've hit another nail on the head. One of the reasons I personally took to buddhist practice many years ago (though I haven't practiced in years) - the very notion of "reward" later for something done now feels exactly like what you've said - an incredibly dualistic, selfish notion. Selflessness would be to just do the right thing, because it's the right thing - here and now.
Buddhism is great as it doesn't seem to breed extremists, religiodictators, morality mongers and fanatics like some other religions seem to do.
It just breeds callouses on your ass, since at least in zen practice, there's not much talking or philosophizing to be done - just sit your ass down, breathe, and become a conscious person. The paradox of hard work, to find it was easy to begin with. I've not sat seriously for years. Not quite like being admonished by the Sunday preacher ("haven't seen you in church for quite a while"), but the lapse is evident. Just ask a few folks around here.
I truly believe that there are more paths to God than there are grains of sand. None are "right" none are "wrong", they are simply "yours". The important thing is that you have a sense of the divine (or cosmic for the more "new age-ist"). Wars and atrocities in His name simply make the angels cry and get no one any closer to heaven.
Totally agree... Sikhism as well preaches that we should neither cause fright to anyone or be afraid of anyone. The awe of God turns into love and out of this love, one should be prepared to offer his all to please God and to serve His Creation without any idea of reward or punishment.
Your looking at it the wrong way. Yes your right, the human race is basically a very selfish one and it has proven that throughout its history. You should be looking at it on a grander scale as a cosmic upbringing . Ever heard the song " through heavens eyes"? Think of it in this way.
I've been trying to find some time to read up on Buddism and Taoism. They seem like something I could go for. They just seem to try and help people lead a good, peaceful life without all the threats, intimidations, and lies.
So which religion is right? Seems a little politically correct to say they all have their faults while at the same time living your life by one in particular. Christianity lists 10 specific commandments. If you read the full text explaining those commandments it gets even more specific. What I don't understand is how you reconcile another religion contradicting any single one of those commandments much less multiple ones by saying all religions have their strengths and weaknesses. We're not talking about picking a fantasy football team here.... Sounds like a cop out to me. Either the ten commandments are right or they are wrong and not the word of God.
Life is more subjective than right and wrong in my opinion. What is right one time for one people will not be right for everyone all the time. That said, if something is really true than it will be true for everyone all the time and I would say there are very few things that are absolutely true. I also believe that if God were to write a book we would all be too stupid to know it was even a book much less read it, yet I do think everyone has the ability to see the "right" way and to feel the presence of divinity. So maybe God didn't write those books, doesn't necessarily mean there is no divinity in them does it? Personally I take a more experiential approach to spirituality and would suggest meditation before heavy reading but I guess some people are just more analytical than I am about it. I had a friend ask me if I think God is an alien. If we were put here long ago by some other race of beings and if all our stories about fire in the sky and people ascending were about aliens. I replied that even if all that were true it still doesn't make God an alien. I do not define God as my creator or my savior, or my personal Santa. I think of God as the soul of existence, the heart and mind of the universe. Again it is not an analytical analysis of religion that led me to believe that, it was that belief that led me to analyze religions.
That's the point. God is the absolute truth no? If he is then I don't see it a major leap to ask someone whether or not they believe what they've been told is God's word is in fact God's word. Then when they are forced to admit that it's not God's word or at least that they don't know if it's God's word, ask them why they believe/worship it then. Very true. But doesn't that make it even less likely that the bible is God's word? Actually, yes. That's exactly what it means. If it is not God's word. It is man's word. Meaning we've been following the word of men, after being translated by men, then having it's meaning interpreted by men. Now the leap that it takes knowing all of that, to call it God's word is equivalent to jumping into a fire and wondering why God doesn't save you. It's unfathomable. Interesting. My conclusions are quite similar to yours only I went the opposite way. I analyzed religion then looked at science and what we actually know vs. what we "take on faith" and find that possibility much more likely. Go figure
I do not think God is the absolute truth, I think God is what makes truth possible, I am one of those strange people who thinks you can't pin attributes to God that easily. Just my thoughts of course. I personally am not a follower of the Bible (any of em) but I also don't really care what anyone else believes as long as they treat me the way I treat them. Generally polite yet willing to argue I actually do not think that God is powerless in this world, I think things happen through and with people that seem to have connections, I do not think it impossible for a fool to write a book of wisdom, a thousand monkeys with typewriters sort of thing, the masterpiece comes out in spite of the monkeys, albeit extremely rarely. Of course the men (maybe Ruth or something was really written by a woman but I doubt it) who wrote these books were not fools. They were wise and sometimes powerful leaders of their people. With the Bible it was streams of people from all sorts of times and places. As far as your science vs religion thing, I really haven't had that conflict since I stopped calling myself a Baptist. I believe science and our ability to reason is one of the many ways God reaches into the world. Do you think it an accident that we are so consumed as a race with finding out why and how everything works, with building and creating, discovering and recording things? If you do that is an acceptable conclusion to make I guess but it's no more a leap of faith than stating that we may indeed be here for a purpose and that maybe we are fulfilling that purpose naturally without even trying just like everything else in the ecosystem of the earth? It seems like a simple choice of deciding there must be a designer or it was accidental. And if it was accidental who set up the conditions for the accident. If we can recreate life from base elements in a science lab we still need a lab, the elements and the scientist. If we one day create something from nothing (an impossibility according to conventional science) we still need the person to start the action that creates the something. If I had to define God I would say a beautiful paradoxical possibility. If there is a being so absolutely more in every way than we are, that it would qualify as God for all concerned, it would have to be so beyond us we would not have the capacity to recognize it enough to know it for its true nature. To grant us that capacity would be to make us God (one with God is a common theme in religions ). I do not believe that means we cannot experience God or understand some things about what God might be like, it just means we will always be at least a little wrong as long as we are stuck here on this rock. What I have experienced and understood about divinity becomes my religion, just like it does for everyone else. Anti-religion becomes its own religion the moment it relies on a belief about divinity.
Why? Seems to be that's what people would like to believe but if you break things down, they really do come down to yes and no or right and wrong, the in between is often people trying to justify something one way or another. Seems to me that's a great example of something that would have an answer of right or wrong. Why is it that the moment a person questions religion, they are considered "anti-religion" why can't it be anti falsehood. Fact is, not a single person here has proof that a "God" exists, if they did, the world would never be the same. The only way a God exists is in ourselves, our interpretation and viewpoints but overall my point is, I hope that one day people get past the idea of religion and at least accept that life is a precious thing and that we should enjoy every moment we have. So much pain and suffering is caused in this world in the name of religion, on the basis of what people claim that "God wants" or "God believes" when in fact, not one of those cries as based on anything more than belief. It's sad to imagine how much further people could be along in this life is religion were simply a belief and not a way of life. Hopefully as people of this world are at a cross roads, they will find themselves strong enough to look past a book of stories and into the abilities they themselves have to make change and not depend on a belief that most likely is not true. I don't think people believe in a God because they do, I think they believe in a God because they feel they have to.
To me....religion simply means a way to connect your inner soul with the supreme power..... The ways can be different but ultimate aim is the connectivity! Hence all religions are right if practiced correctly.... Regards, RightMan
I think you are an agnostic. Whether you label yourself that way or not. I know that's not what we're talking about. It's just after reading your posts here it's the sense I get and wanted to point that out Thing is we don't really disagree on much. Only the fine details and our own personal approach to the debate. But our core conclusions are the same IMO. And again, I feel I must state this at least once a week so people don't get things confused. I am an agnostic. I believe that the existence of God can neither be proven nor disproven at this point in time and given our present knowledge. I am not anti-God, I am anti-religion. Because they think their religion has all the answers yet will willingly concede that most of everything they base their religion on is flawed and or has been proven inaccurate. I just try to get people to admit that. I want men to move on past the primitive religion crutch and backwards thinking we needed to help us understand things back then and use our natural curiosity to help us discover what God truly is if he (or they) exist at all or once existed and no longer do. Religion is holding us back..... If we unleashed just half of the potentially brilliant minds into the pursuit of discovery instead of dulling their curiosity with a mental crutch (it's God's will) imagine what we could discover. Imagine if the collective brain power of the entire world had the religious vail lifted from their minds and were forced to find answers to questions instead of just believing God had something to do with it. The possibilities are stunning. So yes I believe in the possibility of God in some form. But it's OBVIOUS to me that the religions of the world are ancient, full of logical flaws, and just plain wrong. And when you point out those flaws in any given religion it's followers will tell you they still believe because they "take it on faith". And to me that is the ultimate concession.... The admitting that you really don't know why you believe or have any logical reason to believe. ..... Yet those same people look at brainwashed people in death cults and shake their heads. Amazing. For the record: I argue just as adamantly against atheist arrogance assuming we humans are just here. That they have proven God does not exist. They have proven nothing. If they had religion wouldn't exist and we'd have all the answers I mention above. Not the case.... I'm sorry but that's a lofty, politically correct, and empty cop out. It doesn't define "supreme power" directly yet claims all religions are geared towards the same goal..... How can you be geared towards the same goal when you can't even agree on what that goal is? Come on, be real. Even if you did have a specifically defined goal you still fail when trying to make all religions one in the same. The Christian 10 commandments and idea that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ leaves absolutely no room for your "all religions are right" theory. Either Jesus is the way or he's not. Either the 10 commandments are meant to be followed to the letter or they are not. Don't come back with a "it doesn't have to be so black and white" argument because that's a cop out... a way of not dealing with those 2 truths directly. Here I'll state them again. Either Jesus is the way or he's not. Either the 10 commandments are meant to be followed to the letter or they are not.
That there is no god is a belief. That religion is holding us back is a belief. There is no empirical data to assert either one as fact. That was what I meant about anti-religion becoming a religion as soon as it relies on belief. Questioning religions and calling out contradictions is a whole other bag of beans and I was very careful not to assume anyone's particular beliefs in my posts, I like to think I know better. So none of that was directed at anyone personally, just my opinions on the issues raised. I am not agnostic because I believe in certain things about God and spirituality, but I am also not afraid to have faith in the unknown. If I was still agnostic I would be withholding that faith for evidence wouldn't I?
well, an interesting fact: Genesis 1 has 3293 characters. (Genesis 1 is the first one, right? the whole god makes the universe thing?). Now since there is no evidence that a god wrote this, let's look at the probability that it is actually right.This probability is 1/28*^3293** *-28-26 letters in the alphabet, + space + period **-3293- number of above This gives a probability so infinitesimally tiny, google gives it to be 0. And that is just the first chapter.
If I could toss a few suggestions (perhaps unwanted - though I hope they might be helpful to you or others): The first would be that buddhism is a "doing" thing, as much physical training as it is a philosophy or way of life. If there are zendos (zen temples, or places of zen sitting meditation training, zazen, in Jap.) or meditation centers from the Tibetan lineage around your area, I'd suggest just a drop by - generally, pretty accessible bunch. That said, there have been some books I've enjoyed over the years. Just a very few: From a zen perspective, books by Charlotte Joko Beck, Everyday Zen; Nothing Special. Thich-Thien An, Zen Philosophy, Zen Practice. D.T. Suzuki, Manual of Zen Buddhism. Because zen has had a long history of both physical and aesthetic practice, there are lots of books on the relationship of zen and martial arts training. Among those I've enjoyed, Trevor Legget's Zen and the Ways is very good. From a Tibetan Buddhist perspective, books by Pema Chodron, the Abbess of Gampo Abbey, are very good. We exchanged a very nice dialogue years ago, on a kind of buddhist realization, found in Shakespeare's Richard II, found at the end of the play. She is warm, whole, and her writing shows it. Among her books that I've enjoyed, The Wisdom of No Escape was wonderful, in my opinion. There are a lot of books I've read over the years, and I'd be glad to recommend more - particularly on the relationship of of buddhist practice to martial training, as well as fine arts (i.e., shodo, zen calligraphy). Foremost, though, if you're interested, I'd suggest you or anyone find a place hosting regular sitting meditation, where you are comfortable to be, and begin - meditation is the heart of buddhist practice. Best, Paul
My post you quoted there, is only "crap" if you can prove it to be so. Otherwise you are just speaking out of turn and making snide little cowardly side comments for fear of being found out to not have any idea what you're talking about. Now go sit down at the kids table and let the grown ups talk unless you have some substantiate information or opinions to provide.