Milosevic= a devout atheist

[atvking]

Originally Posted by iggysick

So basicaly we attacked our own country!
Equoling Milosevic with Tudman and Izebegovic is nothing more than defending him. It's just like saying: he was a bad but it wasn't his fault, others were bad too... Keep defending him. That tells loads about you.

no this is just you trying to wash precious little separatist/opportunist/war criminal franjos hands...i dont deny milosevic is scum but you deny fanjo is and i find this amusing...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Since when Tudman is a war criminal? Care to share with us when he was convicted as war criminal?

we both know he died before criminal charges were raised for mass murder, ethnic cleansing just wiki "franjo tudjman"...dont play dumb about franjo you just amuse me....

Originally Posted by iggysick

If you know anything about history you should knew that AVNOJ had only 3 meetings and ZAVNOH was integral part of AVNOJ.
And I guess you will understand this: Popis hrvatskih NOP odreda

weak attempt at riding the surf of AVNOJ...i told you in my last post you should not attempt to ride the surf of AVNOJ...and again you give me a meaningless list of croat "anti nazi" troops formed by croat historians on croat wiki... go wiki "independent croatia" LOL dont point me to your propaganda...find the jews estimate of 800.000 people murdered off in your concentration camps and "new croatia"...oh right theyre full of shit...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Another facts I am proud of:Croatian Righteous among the Nations

only the jews claim you killed off 800.000 non croats including serbs/jews/muslims/gypsies...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Read some history and than we can talk. You are the one who claim that whole nation was a monster. Here, start here: 1st Sisak Partisan Detachment

no you are the one claiming i am claiming this...your WW2 politicians were murdering nazi puppets and this stands true...

Originally Posted by iggysick

It seems to me that your "history" is somehow diferent than ours. I am still waiting on you to prove how all croats were nazis during WWII. From facts I've posted it does seems that majority of croats didn't liked what croatian nazi criminals were doing.

slap open a history book written outside of croatia...wiki "croatia" or wiki "forces of the axis in world war 2" or just "croat and nazi" ...i did not say ALL croats were nazis...just the ones in power and some followers...again i bet you will say that i said all croats are nazis in your next reply...

Originally Posted by iggysick

So when Milosevic started to arm serbs in Croatia and they started to taking over out towns and started to attacking our police forces we should've continue with negotiations?

yeah sure he did this for no reason at all one day he was sitting in his office thinking "hell im bored lets take over croat towns"...washing separatist franjos hands again?

Originally Posted by iggysick

How can Radical party be product of the war if it was formed before war?

the radical party was formed before ww2 i think...but this was not my point...my point was in reply to your accusation why the idiots in the radical party got so many votes in the last few elections (plural)

Originally Posted by iggysick

How can you negotiate for years if you were already attacked?

you have to explain why they would attack out of the blue for no reason? or was there a reason? OH RIGHT it was no name separatist franjo who wanted his own private country with 100.000-s of serbs living there...

oh and when you say "attacked" do you mean serbs who did not want to live under franjo and his own little private state in that region? you make it sound like the army came from serbia lol...

Originally Posted by iggysick

And your claim that a nation got nothing with their own national state is nonsense not worth disscusing.

sniff sniff sniff i smell somebody is out of arguments...how very amusing..."not worth discussing" AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA! it amuses me so much that you cant explain this...it is so clear and obvious to everybody who may read that you have no answer ho ho ho....

Originally Posted by iggysick

If we look at mankind history there was millions and millions people died for their national states and their freedom altough their air remained the same...

as expected you did not answer my question and again ill ask: why was is so importaint to precious little franjo to have his own country? was oxygen running out living with serbs and bosninans? (i bet you wont answer again)

Originally Posted by iggysick

You are the one who claimed that we were monsters. Will you now claim that you didn't claimed that? And who was asking for their own private country? Care to share with us some sources or is it just one of your "silly" claims you can't back up with sources?

go back and read my reply...i have nothing more to say than i already did and i wont be drawn in to answering your assumptions about what you think i said...your ww2 politicians were raging nazis but not the whole populaiton...do you get it?

Originally Posted by iggysick

That's why I've asked you was Tudman nazi during WWII and you dodged that question. Check reality again: Tudman

Doesn't sound like a nazi to me at all.

nooooooooooooo precious little war criminal/ethnic cleanser franjo...tell me what am i to think of a nation that has a major national holiday based on the ethnic cleansing of more than 200.000 civilians... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oluja franjo was just an angel and is now in heaven lol...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Care to quote me where did I called your nation monsters? I would love to see that quote.
And when did you made peace with monsters? Is that a joke? Care to share with us how exactly you made peace with monsters after WWII if you claim that you didn't called my entire nation monsters. I would love to hear that explanation too!

you need to read what i post and not just repeat your presumptions...only your politicians were nazis the main population was not i wrote this above...when i said " we made peace with monsters" this does not mean we made peace with every single croat one by one...it means we (our government) made peace with you (your government)...its a political forum and any generalization of the population is out of place...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Again, care to share with us how Tudman and Izetbegovic wanted their own private countries for themselfs? I would love to see some sources which can prove that silly claim!

oh i dont know LOL maybe wiki "tudjman" and go to the "controversies" part...come on you have to be kidding right?

Originally Posted by iggysick

And ,again, you are confirming real cause of war: Milosevic wanted to get all serbs in one country meaning that he wanted to get as much of our land as he can get. It's not first time that you are saying it thou.

he already had all serbs living in one country: yugoslavia... forgetting about franjos separatism again eh?

Originally Posted by iggysick

First of all I am not your "bro".

thats such a wise point to make from your phoney moral high ground...LOL...i love how you try to paint yourself as "better" it amuses me to no end...you may want to stop speaking my language if im not your "bro" LOL...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Second, please do share with us all maps from Croatia and Bosnia and let's than disscuss "ethnic cleansing". I would love to do this!

before:
http://balkansnet.org/802254.gif

after:
http://balkansnet.org/postwar.gif

first map i came across...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Your excuses for war crimes commited by your hordes doesn't sound too pacifics huh?
Mass rape and psychological oppression

excuses? oh you mean the pointing out of how much of a war criminal frajno was but this paints a bad pic of your precious little independence? i never said anybody from serbia who commited crimes was not scum this is just you trying to have a point...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Yeah our hordes raped more than 20,000 womans and girls but you started it with your nationalism and separatism... Are you aware that your excuses for those criminals sounds kinda disgusting?

only you forget your own crimes? nice try at painting a black and white picture lol... war criminal franjo= angel and everybody else= hoards...LOL

what is disgusting is your phoney accusations that im defending rape or murder...im not...and you know this...

Originally Posted by iggysick

But yeah, you don't defend Milosevic at all!
Your question sounds like: why would Hitler start a war and get hate from the whole world! Sorry, check ex-yu constitution and check what it says about how republics can get their independnce and you will find your answers why he did what he did.

hitler did not have the whole world...milosevic already had all serbs in one country: yugoslavia...milosevic did not ask for his private country...franjo did

Originally Posted by iggysick

So Milosevic didn't play any role before Tudman and Izetbegovic got to power?!? Is this a joke?

he was not the bloody dictator nobody could get rid of before tudjman and izetbegovic started asking for private countries...tudjman and izetbegovic and mostly US foreign policy cemented milosevic in power...

Originally Posted by iggysick

By creating so called Krajina and integrating it into some kind of new Yugoslavia. Don't tell me, you never heard of something like that huh?

you mean serbs who did not want to live in franjos and alijas new private countries? why cant they form their own country too? oh right this is where the double standard kicks in...

Originally Posted by iggysick

So this was not your post:

i explained this already...if you dont get it then that is sad...

Originally Posted by iggysick

As I can read it there's no mention of "corat nazis and government". Can you show me where did you said that?

learn how to read?...you have to be kidding me with this right? if anybody else gives a crap they should wiki "independent croatia" i have nothing more to say....

Originally Posted by iggysick

I will never agree with you on that one for sure. Yes, we did have war criminals but it was more in individual form. We never did anything like your hordes did in Srebrenica. Other than war crimes in Gospic I don't recall any else ,let's say, organised war crimes from my side. If we had hordes (and I am talking about military and paramilitary forces) you would post list of massacres just like I've did.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAA! i have no other comment...

Originally Posted by iggysick

And ,again, you keep repeating how Tudman wanted his own private country but somehow you never posts any source to back up that claim.

wiki "franjo tudjman" and go to the "controversies" part...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Well, when you twist facts like you doing it all the time there's no need to answer your silly questions. Claiming that we got our independence because some man wanted his own private country is simply insult for all those people who gave their life for our freedom. You think if you keep claiming that we killed 100,000s of people to get private country for one single man it will somehow become a hard cold fact. Sorry to burst your bubble: it won't. It sounds too damn retarded for anyone to believe in it. Keep making up things, maybe there's enough naive kids who would believe in fairy tales you post all the time.

AGAIN you did not answer...i know you would not answer LOL...thanks for the laugh...

Originally Posted by iggysick

You can fool 1000s of people but you can't fool whole damn world and world said what they think about Milosevic, his regime on one side and Tudman,Izetbegovic, Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo on other side.

oh right we have on one side the guy with the power and on the other side we have the nationalist/separatists who want their own private countries and power...im SURE the separatists have GREAT reasons for their separatism only you cant give me any...and im SURE they ALL tell the truth LOL i mean it goes hand in hand with politics...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Don't tell me: it was all US conspiracy to put you down, right?

dont tell me: without bill the cigar pusher clinton your franjo would have had his own private country?

Originally Posted by iggysick

Never the less I don't expect facts from a guy who claims to be pacifist and on the other hand he keeps defending someone like Milosevic was and he calls entire nation monsters. You simply doesn't make sense. Period.

do the franjo hand wash all you want...know that im lauging at you for not being able to explain why you needed your "independence" so urgently that you had to go to war over it...i forgive you for your selective memory and double standard propaganda and your black and white portrayal of the events that led to precious little war criminal franjo and his buddies having their private country...

but i dont forgive you for not knowing why you needed your independence at the cost of 100.000s of lives...

oh and i bet anything in the world that you have no answer and you can bet anything in the world that i will be amused by your lack of reason for your separatist war...

[iggysick]

Originally Posted by atvking

no this is just you trying to wash precious little separatist/opportunist/war criminal franjos hands...i dont deny milosevic is scum but you deny fanjo is and i find this amusing...

Again, since when Franjo is war criminal? Sources? Ah yes! It's just your opinion and nothing else.

Originally Posted by atvking

we both know he died before criminal charges were raised for mass murder, ethnic cleansing just wiki "franjo tudjman"...dont play dumb about franjo you just amuse me....

ahahahahahahah charges for mass murder? Where? In Vukovar perhaps? So you admit that he wasn't charged war criminal and it's just your opinion, right?

Originally Posted by atvking

weak attempt at riding the surf of AVNOJ...i told you in my last post you should not attempt to ride the surf of AVNOJ...and again you give me a meaningless list of croat "anti nazi" troops formed by croat historians on croat wiki... go wiki "independent croatia" LOL dont point me to your propaganda...find the jews estimate of 800.000 people murdered off in your concentration camps and "new croatia"...oh right theyre full of shit...

Of course, all croats were nazis during WWII and that's why it was croats who started ifrst armed resistance to nazis in all off occupied Europe, right?
Again, you trying to spread your propaganda. ARe you deny that part of croats were against nazis?

Originally Posted by atvking

only the jews claim you killed off 800.000 non croats including serbs/jews/muslims/gypsies...

I never deny existing of croat nazis did I?

Originally Posted by atvking

no you are the one claiming i am claiming this...your WW2 politicians were murdering nazi puppets and this stands true...

You should read your posts again: post after post after post you are trying to prove how all croats were nazis during WWII and there were no croats fighting against nazis.

Originally Posted by atvking

slap open a history book written outside of croatia...wiki "croatia" or wiki "forces of the axis in world war 2" or just "croat and nazi" ...i did not say ALL croats were nazis...just the ones in power and some followers...again i bet you will say that i said all croats are nazis in your next reply...

Nah, you simply said: you were monsters....

Originally Posted by atvking

yeah sure he did this for no reason at all one day he was sitting in his office thinking "hell im bored lets take over croat towns"...washing separatist franjos hands again?

Again defending Milosevic? What you don't get it and probably never will all Miloseivics defenders try to defend him by equaling him with Tudman. If those two were equaly bad that would mean that wars weren't Milosevic's fault so there ya go! Keep defending him mister pacifist.

Originally Posted by atvking

the radical party was formed before ww2 i think...but this was not my point...my point was in reply to your accusation why the idiots in the radical party got so many votes in the last few elections (plural)

Your point is that you have explanation for all nonsense you post.

Originally Posted by atvking

you have to explain why they would attack out of the blue for no reason? or was there a reason? OH RIGHT it was no name separatist franjo who wanted his own private country with 100.000-s of serbs living there...

oh and when you say "attacked" do you mean serbs who did not want to live under franjo and his own little private state in that region? you make it sound like the army came from serbia lol...

Again, can you prove with any single source how "no name separatist franjo" wanted "his own private country with 100.000-s of serbs living there"? Of course you can't and it's just your way to twist the facts.
And you are accussing someone of being separatists hahahhahahahahahahahah What did serbs tried in Croatia? Shall we call it separatism?
So you don't deny that they started to attack our policemans? So you, as pacifist, agree with their attacks? You support them?

Originally Posted by atvking

sniff sniff sniff i smell somebody is out of arguments...how very amusing..."not worth discussing" AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA! it amuses me so much that you cant explain this...it is so clear and obvious to everybody who may read that you have no answer ho ho ho....

Again, it's not worth discussing. Raed history, it may help.

Originally Posted by atvking

as expected you did not answer my question and again ill ask: why was is so importaint to precious little franjo to have his own country? was oxygen running out living with serbs and bosninans? (i bet you wont answer again)

Again I won't answer because you ask wrong questions. Can you prove that franjo wanted to have his own country? Of course you don't but defending Milosevic is hard task so you need to make franjo looks as bad as possible.

Originally Posted by atvking

go back and read my reply...i have nothing more to say than i already did and i wont be drawn in to answering your assumptions about what you think i said...your ww2 politicians were raging nazis but not the whole populaiton...do you get it?

Keep lying, everyone can read what did you posted: you called us monsters so I called you monsters. You didn't said that? Altough you fail to quote me where did I called you monsters...

Originally Posted by atvking

nooooooooooooo precious little war criminal/ethnic cleanser franjo...tell me what am i to think of a nation that has a major national holiday based on the ethnic cleansing of more than 200.000 civilians... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oluja franjo was just an angel and is now in heaven lol...

You think if you repeat something 100 times it will become truth, right? As I can see you're big fun of mr Goebbels.
Overhere we all DAMN PROUD of Oluja and we will always be and the last thing we will ever felt about it would be any kind of shame. No matter how much you try to present it like deed of one man (again, to defend Milosevic) it was all result of will of whole nation.

Originally Posted by atvking

you need to read what i post and not just repeat your presumptions...only your politicians were nazis the main population was not i wrote this above...when i said " we made peace with monsters" this does not mean we made peace with every single croat one by one...it means we (our government) made peace with you (your government)...its a political forum and any generalization of the population is out of place...

Are you saying that I can't read?
Btw can you show me how did you made peace with "my" government?
I would love to see some sources how your government made peace with "my" government after WII.

Originally Posted by atvking

oh i dont know LOL maybe wiki "tudjman" and go to the "controversies" part...come on you have to be kidding right?

I'll repeat again: Again, care to share with us how Tudman and Izetbegovic wanted their own private countries for themselfs? I would love to see some sources which can prove that silly claim!

Originally Posted by atvking

he already had all serbs living in one country: yugoslavia... forgetting about franjos separatism again eh?

And when he started to loosing Yugoslavia he started the war. We can finally agree on something! Again, stop trying to present it like Tudman did something by himself. 97% of croatian citizens wanted independence so basicaly we were all "separatists" at that time.

Originally Posted by atvking

thats such a wise point to make from your phoney moral high ground...LOL...i love how you try to paint yourself as "better" it amuses me to no end...you may want to stop speaking my language if im not your "bro" LOL...

I speak your language? Should I be surprised by that claim? Actually I am not. Everything you said here I've already heard before from people who started this war.
Sorry kid, but I can't be "bro" with pacifist who call tragedy of war a "fuss".

Originally Posted by atvking

before:
http://balkansnet.org/802254.gif

after:
http://balkansnet.org/postwar.gif

first map i came across...

Find real map. That one looks like 8yo kid edited it in msdraw. During the war more than 2,5 millions of people were displaced on Balkan so show us some real facts and stats and numbers and than let's talk about ethnic cleansing.

Originally Posted by atvking

excuses? oh you mean the pointing out of how much of a war criminal frajno was but this paints a bad pic of your precious little independence? i never said anybody from serbia who commited crimes was not scum this is just you trying to have a point...

Tudman was not war criminal and he will never be one. Period. If you can't accept that fact it's your problem, not mine.

Originally Posted by atvking

only you forget your own crimes? nice try at painting a black and white picture lol... war criminal franjo= angel and everybody else= hoards...LOL

what is disgusting is your phoney accusations that im defending rape or murder...im not...and you know this...

Where did I said that Tudman was angel or were did I said that some of our guys didn't commited war crimes? But there's big diference from two sides: on one side there was individual war criminals (you can't expect that if you are forced to take more than 10% of some countries man to army that you will not take some pure criminals or lunatics among them) and from one side there was organized war crimes (you can't rape more than 20,000 womans and say it was individual crime and you can't execute more than 8,000 man on one place and say it was not organized).

Originally Posted by atvking

hitler did not have the whole world...milosevic already had all serbs in one country: yugoslavia...milosevic did not ask for his private country...franjo did

Yugoslavia was not one country. It was assemble by 6 countries and each single country had the constitutional right to go on their own which everyone decided to do and than Milosevic started the war to keep us by force in Yugoslavia.

Originally Posted by atvking

he was not the bloody dictator nobody could get rid of before tudjman and izetbegovic started asking for private countries...tudjman and izetbegovic and mostly US foreign policy cemented milosevic in power...

He was bloody dictator. Are you saying that democrat uses speacial police forces to eliminate his political opponents?

Originally Posted by atvking

you mean serbs who did not want to live in franjos and alijas new private countries? why cant they form their own country too? oh right this is where the double standard kicks in...

Again, again and again... you're so annoying with that "private countries" bullshit... You should read something before posting such nonsense: Croatian independence referendum, 1991. We were all damn proud "separatists" at that time and we still are.
They didn't wanted to live in my country? They were free to leave it any time. Nobody can force you to live where you don't want to live, right?

Originally Posted by atvking

i explained this already...if you dont get it then that is sad...

No, actually it's sad that if you are pacifist and claim what you claim in this thread I can only imagine what serbian rightists thinks about us...

Originally Posted by atvking

learn how to read?...you have to be kidding me with this right? if anybody else gives a crap they should wiki "independent croatia" i have nothing more to say....

Of course you have nothing to say... How about answering my question?

Originally Posted by atvking

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAA! i have no other comment...

Great argument you got there! How can anyone beat you in disscusions.

Originally Posted by atvking

wiki "franjo tudjman" and go to the "controversies" part...

I've checked it and it doesn't say anything how Tudman wanted his very own private country. That's all you have? Nothing else?

Originally Posted by atvking

AGAIN you did not answer...i know you would not answer LOL...thanks for the laugh...

AGAIN, I will not answer on questions based on twisted facts. Period.

Originally Posted by atvking

oh right we have on one side the guy with the power and on the other side we have the nationalist/separatists who want their own private countries and power...im SURE the separatists have GREAT reasons for their separatism only you cant give me any...and im SURE they ALL tell the truth LOL i mean it goes hand in hand with politics...

Again,again,again,again and again same old same old... Why you have the problem to admit that Tudman was elected by my nation and that we decided on referendum that we want independent state? Is that such problem?
If there was no Tudman we would elected someone else who would lead us to iindependet state. Period.

Originally Posted by atvking

dont tell me: without bill the cigar pusher clinton your franjo would have had his own private country?

You're annoying as hell... What about me? What about my family? What about my street? What about my town? We didn't wanted independence? Why is it hard for you to accept facts that my whole nation didn't wanted to live in same country with your nation? Why do you keep trying to say that there was only one man who wanted his own private country? So what Bill did for us? Send us arms? Oh God! how I wish it was truth! We would saved a lot of innocent lives! YOu keep repeating how there was 100,000s of killed but somehow you keep forgeting to tell us who were those 100,000 killed. If we and bosnians were so evil as you want to present us, and if we were supported by US someone may think that most of killed were serbs but that wasn't case, right?

Originally Posted by atvking

do the franjo hand wash all you want...know that im lauging at you for not being able to explain why you needed your "independence" so urgently that you had to go to war over it...i forgive you for your selective memory and double standard propaganda and your black and white portrayal of the events that led to precious little war criminal franjo and his buddies having their private country...

but i dont forgive you for not knowing why you needed your independence at the cost of 100.000s of lives...

oh and i bet anything in the world that you have no answer and you can bet anything in the world that i will be amused by your lack of reason for your separatist war...

Again, you are the finest example of how greatoserbs propaganda looks like: croats were all nazis during WWII, we made mistake by making peace with them after WWII, they speak our language, we all live in Yugoslavia and it's our country and they want to destroy our country, they are still nazis and separatists and nationals...

I will repeat what I said earlier about you in this thread: guys who thinks like are the main reason for all those war crimes commited and are the main reason why wars on Balkan started in first place. Everything you said here I've already heard years before war started and it was coming from Serbia like very well organized propaganda machinery.

It was easy for Milosevic to convince croatian serbs to go to war: he just bombarded with propaganda you showing it here:
"go wiki "independent croatia" LOL dont point me to your propaganda...find the jews estimate of 800.000 people murdered off in your concentration camps and "new croatia"..."only the jews claim you killed off 800.000 non croats including serbs/jews/muslims/gypsies..."you said you cant make peace with a monster? how come we made peace with you after WW2? you killed off 100.000-s of jews and serbs in your nazi concentration camps and NO not all countries were like you only germany/italy/japan and austria anybody in doubt can google "croatia" and "nazi" dont take my word for it or even better wiki "italian puppet states"...peace is always an option even with monsters..."

And after that, when you convince people that all croats were nazis during WWII just tell them that they will repeat it again:

"you were "monsters" during WW2 and we made peace with you and lived in peace with you right until you went back to your old ways with Franjo and his separatism and nationalism...post WW2 croats were peaceful people just like everybody else..."

So there ya go: nazis getting back to "old ways" so what should people do? What would you do? It was so easy to push those people to start the war so your claim that we need something you call "separatists" war is completly false. You didn't even tried to deny that serbs actually started it by attacking our police officers.

All those crimes would be impossible without propaganda from people like you are. Nobody can claim that all those crimes came from nowhere. Something caused them and it's funny how you want convince the world that someone separatism or nationalism is cause of it! You love your country so I will rape 20 woman! You want your own independent state so I will kill 20 innocent civilians! Gimme a break! Do you really believe in that?

I will ask you one simple question: how can you call yourself pacifist and than call tragedy of war an "fuss"?

[atvking]

franjo was a war criminal who died before charges were raised + US puppets get the popular media support no matter what they do...you can pretend he was not and its on your honor and the honor of your country i dont care...i can understand why you need to believe he was innocent i really can...

croats did not start the first resistance to nazis in europe LOL what are you talking about? croatia was one of the nazi strongholds in WW2 slap open a history book...

again ill say it but you dont seem to understand: not ALL croats were nazis...but the ones in power were...just like not ALL germans were nazis...can you understand now?

you went to war over it so i find in endlessly amusing that you dont know why...you cant even begin to explain what you got with your precious little independence...AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA! ...you have no way of explaining why it was so critical to your nation...when you say "its not worth discussing" do you actually for 1 second think anybody believes you actually sound like you have a reason??

its so sad that you cant explain why...but i can! : GREED! "vote for independent croatia and money will fall from the sky! your crops will grow 3x as big and the sun will shine 4x as hard...franjo will make wine out of water and the sky will turn pink!"

and no you are defending franjo again...washing his precious little ethnic cleanser/mass murdered hands...just like all the separatists who dont know why they went to war need to point their blame on somebody for their own separatism LOL... 100.000-s died and or were forced to leave their homes FOR NOTHING...im sure its ALL the serbs fault who did not want to give up their homes to no name franjo just like that with short negotiations...im sure franjos separatism had NO role in this next time some no name separatist comes along we wont even wait for elections he just has to tirp out and the whole country is his! 100.000-s of people can just go screw themselves...

and if youre "DAMN PROUD" of oluja thats really really sad...you base your national holiday on the ethic cleansing of 200.000 civilians??? if this is the bright moment in your history then you are very very poor as a nation indeed LOL...175.000 croat soldiers ethnically cleansing 200.000 serbian civilians...what a proud moment that must have been! LOL...just goes to show that the fears of the serbs who did not want to live under franjo were justified after all...

you asked how tudjman got his private country even though i pointed out the link but heres a better one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franjo_...on_controversy
tudjman and his buddies got very very fat...and 100.000-s died because of it...not saying this does not happen in other countries...im only saying that i KNOW WHY tudjman wanted his own private country...

as for 97% of all croats wanting independence how can this be when 12-13% of your population was serb?? (forgive me if the % is up or down a few percent) and how can you all be separatists when you cant explain why you wanted independence? since you cant explain you are tools and not separatists...when you can give me a good reason then you become separatists...

ill tell you what you find me an ethic map of croatia before the war and after ok? we will see who the real ethnic cleansers are...all i have to say is that croatia is very very ethnically clean LOL...

as for tudjman not being a war criminal: AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! ok if franjo is not a war criminal then milosevic is not a war criminal either...how silly is it to hide from the truth??? HE DIED BEFORE CHARGES WERE RAISED AND YOU KNOW THIS! AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!


what about you? what about your family? what about your street? it counts for NOTHING until you explain why the separatism was worth going to war for...until then you are just a tool who does not know what he went to war for...give me a real reason for your separatism...not just "we did not want to live with the serbs" this is a silly 3rd grade answer good for 5 year old kids who know nothing...you have to explain what was SO wrong with yugoslavia for you to go to war...

as for war crimes this is very unfortunate and all share responsibility...even franjo...if the whole world is going to be against the serbs and if no name separatists get their private countries and the private properties of citizens mean nothing then whats the big surprise? treat people like animals and they will become animals...the rapes and murder did not start before your separatism and the rapes and murder were done by croats and bosnians too...

as for your question how can i call myself a pacifist when i call war a "fuss" i did a search i cant find what you are talking about...but yes i am a pacifist...i dont go to war over things i cant explain (like you cant explain why you so urgently needed separatism and independence) and when the war mongers give me their no brain nationalist reasons i just laugh at them...

actually wars start because of people like you not people like me...i dont fight for precious franjos private country...i dont care who i pay taxes to...i dont celebrate national holidays based on armies going after civilians..

[gworld]

Originally Posted by pingpong123

That just goes to show a man living by his own laws can be acapable of anything, he then becomes his own god. The guy was a mass murderer and a devout atheist.

In reality the art of big wars and mass killings is one of the Christianity's contribution to the humanity.

[iggysick]

If you are pacifist I am martian...

Originally Posted by iggysick

You again repeating Milosevics propaganda that started whole mess. Because of it you lost Kosovo but you still don't want to admit that.

Originally Posted by atvking

youre being very unreasonable...what did you expect any politician in the world to do? give independence to the first separatists that came along? name one nation it the world that would allow 2 new muslim states and 1 former "nazi" state to build independent countires on "their" soil without any fuss...your history is not exactly spotless is it? the situation was not black and white as you try to paint it...you were not exactly asking for candy and daises were you? we were supposed to leave 100.000-s of serbs to live in your new private states just because you say so? seriously?

Do you hate muslims, btw?

As I can see from this post you admitting that you started war to keep all serbs in one state so why you keep saying we started it? You said that several time but again keep repeating how we started "separatist" war... Could you make up your mind already.
You can keep making up things as long as you want but anyone can get facts so easy these days and as I can remember world supported us and you got sanctions so I guess it was all world conspiracy against you and whole world was blind and did saw what's going on here. Oh! Poor serbs! The victims of whole world! Damn world!

And last... you never asked ME why I wanted my own state and what does it mean to me! You keep repeating retarded claim in form of question "why franjo started separatists war and killed 100,000s of people to get his own private country?".

The fact is serbs started the war to stay in one state and for then it wasn't matter if that one land is Yugoslavia or Great Serbia. Do you have any other explanation how JNA and chetniks joined together in war?

What was so wrong with Yugoslavia you ask? Read your own posts and you'll see why croats never accepted Yugoslavia as their own state.
All you have is keep endlessly repeating same old lies about my nation and your nation keep doing it since end of WWII so when you ask what was wrong with Yugoslavia is that some sort of a joke?

Originally Posted by atvking

croats did not start the first resistance to nazis in europe LOL what are you talking about? croatia was one of the nazi strongholds in WW2 slap open a history book...

Croats formed the first armed anti-fascist military unit in Europe but if you accept that truth you can't repeat how we were monster during WWII so you won't accept it.

and if youre "DAMN PROUD" of oluja thats really really sad...you base your national holiday on the ethic cleansing of 200.000 civilians??? if this is the bright moment in your history then you are very very poor as a nation indeed LOL...175.000 croat soldiers ethnically cleansing 200.000 serbian civilians...what a proud moment that must have been! LOL...just goes to show that the fears of the serbs who did not want to live under franjo were justified after all...

Yes, I am DAMN PROUD of Oluja and my whole family is and every single person I know is damn proud of it. You said you have croatian friends so ask them are they proud of it. I'm sure what they will say.
You think if you lie about how it was ethnic cleansing it will become truth and we will be ashamed? All I can say is LMAO! Last time I checked facts it was legitime operation to liberate part of our land that was under occupation.
And you somehow forget what kind of occupation it was...

According to the ICTY, in the amended indictment, he "helped organize an ethnic cleansing campaign of Croats and other non-Serbs from Krajina where 78,000 lived and virtually the entire non-Serb population was forcibly removed, deported or killed". He was originally charged only with ordering a rocket attack on the Croatian capital of Zagreb which killed seven civilians as retaliation to Operation Flash. Martić later appeared on Serbian television and radio, admitting he ordered the shelling.

source
Oh look! They were afraid of Franjo so they ethnicly cleansed 78,000 of non-serbs from so called Krajina! You have to be kidding me! Do you really believe in that kind of fairy tales? Hey! We are afraid of Franjo so we're going to start facist state! Seriously, only "pacifists" can believe in such nonsense.

RSK sources (Kovačević, Sekulić, Vrcelj, documents of HQ of Civilian Protection of RSK, Supreme Council of Defense) have confirmed that evacuation of Serbs was organized and planned beforehand. [21] (citing: [22] [23] [24], see section "Literature"), [25]

source
This, on the other hand, sounds like organized evacuation.

what about you? what about your family? what about your street? it counts for NOTHING until you explain why the separatism was worth going to war for...until then you are just a tool who does not know what he went to war for...give me a real reason for your separatism...not just "we did not want to live with the serbs" this is a silly 3rd grade answer good for 5 year old kids who know nothing...you have to explain what was SO wrong with yugoslavia for you to go to war...

Again, you repeat your false claims. Your Milosevic started the war to keep us in Yugoslavia by force. You said it yourself couple of times yet you keep repeating same old BS about "separatists war". We were forced to defend our country from your nazis and if anyone don't believe me he just need to watch Karadzics trial which will came soon and you'll see nothing but so damn many similarities between his politic during war in Bosnia and nazis during WWII.

I love to be free and to live how I want and you ask me why did I took rifle to defend my freedom from your facist? All you doing here is to spit on graves of all those who gave their lives so that my nation can now have their own state. Please, when you ask that you have croatian friend and comes to Croatia often, tell them what you told me right here and get back to me what did they said on that...

[iatbm]

Root of all evil : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenov...entration_camp

This time around serbs didn't wait to be picked up and killed like animals.


If you take into account the whole 20th century and what serbs went through ww1 and ww2 who can blame them to react like they did when they saw what is coming from croats and muslims in Bosnia ? Read a little history between these three. Milosevic has nothing to do with it...

[atvking]

where do i "admit we started the war" ?? you like to forget that there was no war in serbia...there was only 100.000-s in bosnia and croatia who did not want to live under alija and franjo...what about all these people? ...oh and what about the little greedy war between the croats and muslims LOL they were bad too?

so the USA and their UN puppets gave your separatism and nationalism support...nice...honest honest bill clinton LOL...a muslim country in the middle of europe and millions displaced because of urgent separatist emergency! corats and muslims must be independent or the whole world will explode!! LOL...it was SOOOOOOOO pressing and urgent, only you cant explain why

LOL about you trying to inflate the croat anti nazi movement hahaha...according to the jews 600.000 were killed just in jasenovac...then what does it look like when you DONT fight the nazis? AHAHAHAAAA!

The Ustaše's genocidal onslaught on its minorities provoked mass movements of resistance, inspired in part by royalist (Četnik) and – more effectively – communist (Partisan) ideologies, but driven primarily by a determination to fight back by any means.
i heard serbs are famous ustashas (ironic joke)...and croats are well known chetniks (ironic joke) ahahahahaaa!

so you are DAMN PROUD of oluja? but the evil evil UN claims it was the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 civilians??? im confused LOL...serbs claim 250.000...and when you say "organized evacuation" i say AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA! you are lots of laughs! it must hurt so much to bend your pride to accept this as an organized evacuation LOL evacuation is when a tsunami comes LOL when 175.000 soldiers come at civilians its: ethnic cleansing...i congratulate you on 175.000 soldiers committing ethnic cleansing over 200.000 civilians it must have been a brave and proud day compared to WW2 ahahahahaaaa! break out the best bottle of wine on the next "ethnic cleansing day" and let the fake pride rip lol...maybe im being cruel to you because you dont have a more proud day oh well i guess you have to celebrate something...


define irony: a croat calling a serb nazi!...AHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAA!


you forget that serbia was not involved in the war...your nation was at war with serbian civilians who lived where you wanted your own croat and muslim countries...after the slaughter and force islamization of our region by the ottoman empire and the WW2 croat nazis + force catholitization (spelling?) one cant blame the serbs for being a BIT skeptical about THEIR future with ethnic cleanser franjo and muslim alija who have the support from bill the cigar pusher clinton...

as for if i hate muslims i dont hate anybody...hate is for stupid people who think their life will be better if they hate...


AND HOW FUNNY DO YOU THINK IT IS TO ME THAT YOU CANT EXPLAIN WHAT YOU WENT TO WAR OVER?? AHAHAHAAA!


"we were forced to defend our country" BUT WAIT! your country=YUGOSLAVIA! if you wanted to defend YOUR country you would attack separatists franjo and alija the real threat to YOUR country...NOOOOOOOOOOOO this is not what happened LOL..."great serbia" is just a silly excuse like WMD was for iraq...the real reason is GREED! franjo and alija and bill clinton promised you the moon and stars with independence and in your GREED you decided to stab in the back YOUR COUNTRYMEN ...always remember: serbs had no need for "great serbia" they were in already greater YUGOSLAVIA...always remember 2: franjo and alija DID NOT have SHIT...HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM who stood to gain? LOL...

what makes me think this? simple its that you cant answer my question: what was the urgency? you must have a damn good reason and so far all you have given me is silly silly stuff...what was worth going to war over? when there is no other answer then the most obvious answer : GREED seems most plausible right?

[iggysick]

Originally Posted by iatbm

Root of all evil : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenov...entration_camp

This time around serbs didn't wait to be picked up and killed like animals.


If you take into account the whole 20th century and what serbs went through ww1 and ww2 who can blame them to react like they did when they saw what is coming from croats and muslims in Bosnia ? Read a little history between these three. Milosevic has nothing to do with it...

So you are saying that serbs were afraid of nazis and they become ones? Is that what are you saying? You have to be kidding me!
They opened concentration camps, commited genocide and worst crimes after WWII in Europe because they were afraid of that happening to them?!?
So what Karadzic did in Bosnia is actually result of what croatian nazis did during WWII? Seriously, who can believe is something like that?!? Is that your excuse for genocide in Srebrenica? Who can blame them for doing that?!? Are you serious?!?

Originally Posted by iatbm

This time around serbs didn't wait to be picked up and killed like animals.

No they didn't. They started to pick others and kill them like they were animals:
Omarska camp
Keraterm camp
Trnopolje camp
Bosnian Genocide
Srebrenica massacre
Vukovar massacre

Sure, who can blame them for acts like these... other than every single sane person on planet Earth thou.

[atvking]

Originally Posted by iggysick

Omarska camp
Keraterm camp
Trnopolje camp
Bosnian Genocide
Srebrenica massacre
Vukovar massacre

but wait if ,according to you, "operation storm" was "organized evacuation" of 200.000 serb civilians , and croatias biggest holiday, and not in fact the biggest act of ethnic cleansing then all the above are not concentration camps they are "organized hotel accomodation"? LOL

what ever you quote about serbs it fades away when i mention operation storm or jasenovac...here serbs truly come to a gun fight with a plastic knife

[iatbm]

Originally Posted by iggysick

So you are saying that serbs were afraid of nazis and they become ones? Is that what are you saying? You have to be kidding me!
They opened concentration camps, commited genocide and worst crimes after WWII in Europe because they were afraid of that happening to them?!?
So what Karadzic did in Bosnia is actually result of what croatian nazis did during WWII? Seriously, who can believe is something like that?!? Is that your excuse for genocide in Srebrenica? Who can blame them for doing that?!? Are you serious?!?



No they didn't. They started to pick others and kill them like they were animals:
Omarska camp
Keraterm camp
Trnopolje camp
Bosnian Genocide
Srebrenica massacre
Vukovar massacre

Sure, who can blame them for acts like these... other than every single sane person on planet Earth thou.

Yep if you take into account attrocities inflicted to serbs in 20th century who can blame them. I am not talking about Karadzic and all those crazy politicians. I am talking about people who still remembered how their parents heads were cut by croats and muslims. This time around serbs got organized better and didn't let themselves be taken like sheeps to concentration camps.

Let me remind you that history speaks for itself and that is : that croats only were able to inflict greater volume of attrocities to serbs than serbs did to all the others together.

But I don't think you can get this since as I hear these days one Ustashe that was lieutenant in Jasenovac was burried in Ustashe uniform. I find this strange don't you ?

[iggysick]

Originally Posted by atvking

AND HOW FUNNY DO YOU THINK IT IS TO ME THAT YOU CANT EXPLAIN WHAT YOU WENT TO WAR OVER?? AHAHAHAAA!

So when you were attacked and you defend your country you need a reason for a war?!? Seriously kid, stop posting such nonsense. Yeah, we should've just sit,do nothing and let chetniks take over our towns and kill our police officers.

Other than arguments like "ahahahahahahahaha" you have hardly anything intelligent to say. All you have nonsense like right here:

what makes me think this? simple its that you cant answer my question: what was the urgency? you must have a damn good reason and so far all you have given me is silly silly stuff...what was worth going to war over? when there is no other answer then the most obvious answer : GREED seems most plausible right?

Again, you claiming that we started the war and yet you said numerous time so far that your nation started the war to take parts of my country. Should I find all your quotes where did you said that? It's no problem for me at all.
You're talking about silly silly stuff yet you are accusing entire nation of being greedy! That's ummmmm not silly silly?

so you are DAMN PROUD of oluja? but the evil evil UN claims it was the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 civilians??? im confused LOL...serbs claim 250.000...and when you say "organized evacuation" i say AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA! you are lots of laughs! it must hurt so much to bend your pride to accept this as an organized evacuation LOL evacuation is when a tsunami comes LOL when 175.000 soldiers come at civilians its: ethnic cleansing...i congratulate you on 175.000 soldiers committing ethnic cleansing over 200.000 civilians it must have been a brave and proud day compared to WW2 ahahahahaaaa! break out the best bottle of wine on the next "ethnic cleansing day" and let the fake pride rip lol...maybe im being cruel to you because you dont have a more proud day oh well i guess you have to celebrate something...

Well, you know according to you we are all mosters so it'sa easy for us to celebrate Oluja.
But seriously, I've showed facts and you can laugh all you want but your laughing will not change fact a one bit and we will celebrate Oluja no matter what some "pacifist" from Serbia have to say about it.
So, can you dispute posted facts or all you have to say is your usual "ahahahahaha"?

Originally Posted by iatbm

Yep if you take into account attrocities inflicted to serbs in 20th century who can blame them. I am not talking about Karadzic and all those crazy politicians. I am talking about people who still remembered how their parents heads were cut by croats and muslims. This time around serbs got organized better and didn't let themselves be taken like sheeps to concentration camps.

Let me remind you that history speaks for itself and that is : that croats only were able to inflict greater volume of attrocities to serbs than serbs did to all the others together.

But I don't think you can get this since as I hear these days one Ustashe that was lieutenant in Jasenovac was burried in Ustashe uniform. I find this strange don't you ?

Sorry but can you explain to me what all those innocent croats and muslims who were killed by serb forces during had to do with WWII and crimes commited by croatian nazis? How can you excuse one crime or massacre with other?

[atvking]

Originally Posted by iggysick

So when you were attacked and you defend your country you need a reason for a war?!? Seriously kid, stop posting such nonsense. Yeah, we should've just sit,do nothing and let chetniks take over our towns and kill our police officers.

sure the serb minority living there would "take over your towns and kill your police" get real LOL...think things through before posting...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Again, you claiming that we started the war and yet you said numerous time so far that your nation started the war to take parts of my country. Should I find all your quotes where did you said that? It's no problem for me at all.

yes please find where i said my nation started the war...be sure not to forget...

Originally Posted by iggysick

You're talking about silly silly stuff yet you are accusing entire nation of being greedy! That's ummmmm not silly silly?

you said: Your Milosevic started the war to keep us in Yugoslavia by force. now the question is: do you have to use force against somebody who wants to leave peacefully? the answer: NO... there is the flaw in all your "logic" that we wanted to take something that we already had...YUGOSLAVIA = bigger than great serbia ...croatia and bosnia= franjos and alijas little dream...nationalist greed! my diagnose is 100% accurate...prove me wrong and tell me what you got other than false promises of a "better future"...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Well, you know according to you we are all mosters so it'sa easy for us to celebrate Oluja.
But seriously, I've showed facts and you can laugh all you want but your laughing will not change fact a one bit and we will celebrate Oluja no matter what some "pacifist" from Serbia have to say about it.
So, can you dispute posted facts or all you have to say is your usual "ahahahahaha"?

it will also not change the fact that the United Nations calls it ethnic cleansing of 200.000 civilians...celebrate away it wont stop me from laughing my ass off at your poor selection of national pride and holidays...


every time you dont answer my question it makes me laugh more and more...why did you have to stab your countrymen in the back? what was the urgency other than paying tax to gov X instead of Y? how low does your pride go when you avoid answering this question again and again and again...every time its more amusing to see how low you are willing to go in avoiding the obvious LOL ...most amusing...

[iggysick]

Originally Posted by atvking

sure the serb minority living there would "take over your towns and kill your police" get real LOL...think things through before posting...

They were doing that. Check facts again. They started the war by doing that. When you use force to take over part of someones land it's called starting the war.

Originally Posted by atvking

yes please find where i said my nation started the war...be sure not to forget...

Right here after I said that Milosevic started it you admit it:

Originally Posted by atvking

youre being very unreasonable...what did you expect any politician in the world to do? give independence to the first separatists that came along? name one nation it the world that would allow 2 new muslim states and 1 former "nazi" state to build independent countires on "their" soil without any fuss...your history is not exactly spotless is it? the situation was not black and white as you try to paint it...you were not exactly asking for candy and daises were you? we were supposed to leave 100.000-s of serbs to live in your new private states just because you say so? seriously?

Originally Posted by atvking

you said: Your Milosevic started the war to keep us in Yugoslavia by force. now the question is: do you have to use force against somebody who wants to leave peacefully? the answer: NO...

So we had referendum, voted that we want out of Yugoslavia and that's...what? Forcefully? Using force? Did you checked Yugoslavia constitution what odes it says about that?

Originally Posted by atvking

there is the flaw in all your "logic" that we wanted to take something that we already had...YUGOSLAVIA = bigger than great serbia ...croatia and bosnia= franjos and alijas little dream...nationalist greed! my diagnose is 100% accurate...prove me wrong and tell me what you got other than false promises of a "better future"...

As we wanted out of Yugoslavia and we had right to do that according to Yugoslavian constitution you started to loose that one state with all serbs in it so you tried to keep us with force and you failed in that.

Originally Posted by atvking

it will also not change the fact that the United Nations calls it ethnic cleansing of 200.000 civilians...celebrate away it wont stop me from laughing my ass off at your poor selection of national pride and holidays...

And that won't change a fact one single bit: we're proud of liberation of our country. Keep laughing.

Originally Posted by atvking

every time you dont answer my question it makes me laugh more and more...why did you have to stab your countrymen in the back? what was the urgency other than paying tax to gov X instead of Y? how low does your pride go when you avoid answering this question again and again and again...every time its more amusing to see how low you are willing to go in avoiding the obvious LOL ...most amusing...

I am proud of my nation and my country and every single croat will tell you that. You using nonsense logic to prove I dunno what. Show me the nation that isn't proud of their national country. You are not proud of your nation? Of your country? That's your problem, not mine. Start reading history and see how many millions died for their national states. Nonsense such as why do you want to pay taxes to gov X instead of Y is just that: nonsense.
You keep twisting the facts and ask questions based on those twisted facts.

Originally Posted by atvking

but wait if ,according to you, "operation storm" was "organized evacuation" of 200.000 serb civilians , and croatias biggest holiday, and not in fact the biggest act of ethnic cleansing then all the above are not concentration camps they are "organized hotel accomodation"? LOL

I never called Oluja "organized evacuation". Oluja was legitime military operation to liberate parts of our land which was under occupation under criminal regime. But i am not surprised that you make jokes about those camps at all. After all, you are pacifist, right?

Originally Posted by iatbm

Yep if you take into account attrocities inflicted to serbs in 20th century who can blame them. I am not talking about Karadzic and all those crazy politicians. I am talking about people who still remembered how their parents heads were cut by croats and muslims. This time around serbs got organized better and didn't let themselves be taken like sheeps to concentration camps.

So you are saying that they were afraid of being taken to concentration camps so they started their own? What twisted excuse for genocide you have!

Originally Posted by iatbm

Let me remind you that history speaks for itself and that is : that croats only were able to inflict greater volume of attrocities to serbs than serbs did to all the others together.

Let me remind you that history speaks for itself: all crimes commited during WWII are commited by nazi regime and that nazi regime was defetead and majority of people who done those crimes got what they deserved. Or do you wanna say that whole nation was nazis during WWII?

Originally Posted by iatbm

But I don't think you can get this since as I hear these days one Ustashe that was lieutenant in Jasenovac was burried in Ustashe uniform. I find this strange don't you ?

Sure, it's proven fact when you say so...

[atvking]

Originally Posted by iggysick

They were doing that. Check facts again. They started the war by doing that. When you use force to take over part of someones land it's called starting the war.

oh really LOL how about terrorist Zvonko Busic? back in 1976 he planted a bomb in new york killing police over croat independence LOL anybody can do a google on this..."celebrated hero returns to croatia" LOL...precious precious little franjo asked, with tears in his eyes (LOL), back in 1995 after dayton that they give amnesty to zvonko but warren christopher said AHAHAHAHAA! tell me why did your "hero" have to plant a bomb in the USA like bin laden? please explain LOL...SURE the serbs started it first LOL

Originally Posted by iggysick

Right here after I said that Milosevic started it you admit it:

um no i said milosevic said NO to terrorist friend franjo and fake muslim alija making their private countries in OUR country: YUGOSLAVIA
so you see i never said he started the war i said franjo and alija and bill the cigar pushed did...you still did not answer why it was so important to stab your countrymen in the back?

Originally Posted by iggysick

So we had referendum, voted that we want out of Yugoslavia and that's...what? Forcefully? Using force? Did you checked Yugoslavia constitution what odes it says about that?

sure you used force lol what about Zvonko? the constitution formed by croat tito? oh and pray tell what was your noble reason for leaving? except GREED and nationalism? and also be sure to explain why anybody would take terrorist supporter franjo seriously? (this is a valid question)

Originally Posted by iggysick

As we wanted out of Yugoslavia and we had right to do that according to Yugoslavian constitution you started to loose that one state with all serbs in it so you tried to keep us with force and you failed in that.

no you are wrong again...you used force against the minority who lived there and you, the muslims, the US and its puppet the UN bullied our minority in your "heroic" war for "independence"...serbia was not even involved...so you HEROIC efforts of basically the whole world against a serb minority is so HEROIC i cant begin to express my pride because i live next to such HEROES LOL...

Originally Posted by iggysick

And that won't change a fact one single bit: we're proud of liberation of our country. Keep laughing.

well if terrorist Zvonko is your hero and the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 civilians by 175.000 croat soldiers is a national holiday then i guess you can also put jasenovac day instead of new year

happy ethnic cleansing day! and be sure nobody is laughing harder than i am

Originally Posted by iggysick

I am proud of my nation and my country and every single croat will tell you that. You using nonsense logic to prove I dunno what. Show me the nation that isn't proud of their national country. You are not proud of your nation? Of your country? That's your problem, not mine. Start reading history and see how many millions died for their national states. Nonsense such as why do you want to pay taxes to gov X instead of Y is just that: nonsense.
You keep twisting the facts and ask questions based on those twisted facts.

AHAHAHAAAA! either give me your REASONS the REAL REASON or dont try to answer...youre just citing historical facts that millions died to pay taxes to somebody else and many people are proud of their nationality...NO SHIT!...now you have to focus and try to understand my question: WHY? WHAT IS IT THAT YOU GOT (other than pay tax to x instead of Y) its a simple simple question man...for example your answer could be: the sun shines 2x as hard, or the crops grow 5x as much and this is what was worth going to war for! do you get it now?

Originally Posted by iggysick

I never called Oluja "organized evacuation". Oluja was legitime military operation to liberate parts of our land which was under occupation under criminal regime. But i am not surprised that you make jokes about those camps at all. After all, you are pacifist, right?

RIGHT i can see it screams "legit" LOL...175.000 soldiers (according to the united nations) "liberated" 200.000 civilians from their property (according to the united nations) give one big ethnic cleansing (according to the united nations) but be sure that from now on the world will view upon this as "legit" AHAHAHAHAA...are you on crack? do i have to start a thread about this asking people for their opinion? LOL if i do it sounds like tons of fun! the croat ethnic cleansing holiday LOL...

Originally Posted by iggysick

So you are saying that they were afraid of being taken to concentration camps so they started their own? What twisted excuse for genocide you have!

not as twisted as "the serb minority (12%) will kill our police and steal our land" LOL

Originally Posted by iggysick

Let me remind you that history speaks for itself: all crimes commited during WWII are commited by nazi regime and that nazi regime was defetead and majority of people who done those crimes got what they deserved. Or do you wanna say that whole nation was nazis during WWII?

no hes just saying that for a small nation you were extremely proficient in ethnic cleansing and murder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jasenovac11.jpg


you even had your own "gear" for speedy murder of serbs...the "srbosjek" or the serb cutter knife translated...

Originally Posted by iggysick

Sure, it's proven fact when you say so...

balme the media for spreading "lies" lol...its in all the newspapers and i dont see any denials from official croats...



iggysick...can you imagine how much it amuses me that you cant answer my simple question? i log on like 10x/day waiting to see you avoid my question again and again and again...looking to see how far you are willing to pretend like you gave me an answer ho ho ho...hey if you dont know then according to you 97% voted for independence maybe you can ask a friend? somebody has to know the reason right?

i bet you will answer with some obvious non related stuff like: many puppets died for their masters trips...or : we love our country or other type "the lords ways are mysterious" no brain replies...

[iggysick]

Originally Posted by atvking

oh really LOL how about terrorist Zvonko Busic? back in 1976 he planted a bomb in new york killing police over croat independence LOL anybody can do a google on this..."celebrated hero returns to croatia" LOL...precious precious little franjo asked, with tears in his eyes (LOL), back in 1995 after dayton that they give amnesty to zvonko but warren christopher said AHAHAHAHAA! tell me why did your "hero" have to plant a bomb in the USA like bin laden? please explain LOL...SURE the serbs started it first LOL

I knew you aren't old enough to have serious conversation and this is proof. Can you explain what Zvonko Busic have to do with war in Croatia.

Originally Posted by atvking

um no i said milosevic said NO to terrorist friend franjo and fake muslim alija making their private countries in OUR country: YUGOSLAVIA
so you see i never said he started the war i said franjo and alija and bill the cigar pushed did...you still did not answer why it was so important to stab your countrymen in the back?

We didn't stabbed anyone. Your criminals done that. Keep living in dreams.

Originally Posted by atvking

sure you used force lol what about Zvonko? the constitution formed by croat tito? oh and pray tell what was your noble reason for leaving? except GREED and nationalism? and also be sure to explain why anybody would take terrorist supporter franjo seriously? (this is a valid question)

Sorry, what have Zvonko do with war in Croatia from 1991. to 1995.? Are you claiming that her started it? Posting such nonsense and you want me to reply on something like that?!?
As I've already said: we did everything legal and peacfully and accordding to Yugoslavian constitution. You can't dispute that so you post nonsense.

Originally Posted by atvking

no you are wrong again...you used force against the minority who lived there and you, the muslims, the US and its puppet the UN bullied our minority in your "heroic" war for "independence"...serbia was not even involved...so you HEROIC efforts of basically the whole world against a serb minority is so HEROIC i cant begin to express my pride because i live next to such HEROES LOL...

No, you are wrong here again or should I say you are making things up again to defend Milosevic as usual. We used force against criminal regime led by Milan Martić by of course, pacifist as you are see nothing wrong with likes of Martić.

Originally Posted by atvking

well if terrorist Zvonko is your hero and the ethnic cleansing of 200.000 civilians by 175.000 croat soldiers is a national holiday then i guess you can also put jasenovac day instead of new year

happy ethnic cleansing day! and be sure nobody is laughing harder than i am

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=UYjh3aAvczc
Of course I wouldn't be surprised that you would laugh if someone do start celebrating Jasenovac day. YOu are pacifit after all, right?

Originally Posted by atvking

AHAHAHAAAA! either give me your REASONS the REAL REASON or dont try to answer...youre just citing historical facts that millions died to pay taxes to somebody else and many people are proud of their nationality...NO SHIT!...now you have to focus and try to understand my question: WHY? WHAT IS IT THAT YOU GOT (other than pay tax to x instead of Y) its a simple simple question man...for example your answer could be: the sun shines 2x as hard, or the crops grow 5x as much and this is what was worth going to war for! do you get it now?

No, you never asked me directly what did I got with my own country. You always used your twisted logic and if I ever answer on those claims it would be like I indirectly agree with your nonsense.

To answer you: yes, the sun warms me much better and the air is much much more fresh since I got my own country. I can finally breath with my full launghs.

Originally Posted by atvking

RIGHT i can see it screams "legit" LOL...175.000 soldiers (according to the united nations) against 200.000 civilians (according to the united nations) give one big ethnic cleansing (according to the united nations) but be sure that from now on the world will view upon this as "legit" AHAHAHAHAA...are you on crack?

It was legit and it was against 40,000 serb troops who were occupying parts of our land. You shows it like there was no serb forces at all.
And UN is just US puppets so who gives a damn what they think, right?

Originally Posted by atvking

not as twisted as "the serb minority (12%) will kill our police and steal our land" LOL

Who said anything like that? People without arguments always need to twist what have been said. Other that twisting it you have nothing much to say, do you?

Originally Posted by atvking

no im just saying that for a small nation you were extremely proficient in ethnic cleansing and murder:

you even had your own "gear" for speedy murder of serbs...

Again you are accusing whole nation because of crimes of some. Of course, later on you will try to say that you didn't mean that and that you didn't called whole nation "monsters"...

Originally Posted by atvking

balme the media for spreading "lies" lol...its in all the newspapers and i dont see any denials from official croats...

Is there any neo-nazi in todays Germany? No?

Originally Posted by atvking

iggysick...can you imagine how much it amuses me that you cant answer my simple question? i log on like 10x/day waiting to see you avoid my question again and again and again...looking to see how far you are willing to pretend like you gave me an answer ho ho ho...hey if you dont know then according to you 97% voted for independence maybe you can ask a friend? somebody has to know the reason right?

i bet you will answer with some obvious non related stuff like: many puppets died for their masters trips...or : we love our country or other type "the lords ways are mysterious" no brain replies...

You call my nation a monsters and you than want to know why we didn't wanted to live in same country with you? You have to kidding me!
Not sharing same country with likes of you is enough for me to get our own state. Satisfied?

[atvking]

zvonko was just an example how serbs started nothing your international nationalism/separatism was well documented even before milosevic...franjo was a terrorist friend/supporter no doubt about this...


its not my fault your nation gets such a bad reputation...blame your fathers and grandfathers it was all to easy to dig up facts about your past and its obvious why the minority did not trust you with their lives being that you celebrate massive ethnic cleansing as a national holiday...maybe this is why its so easy to find nazi stuff about you? your complete absence of any feeling of wrongdoing because franjo and your "independence" must not be compromised in any way??...sounds like massive insecurity to me...

you know im not amused any more with your avoiding my question: why did you turn on your countrymen? what was your price? what makes a croat murder over it? if you dont know why then that kinda speaks volumes about your nation??

i dont know how you can have respect for even yourself when its obvious that you dont know what "independence" brought you nor are you able to explain...

if false pride floats your boat then good for you...if 175.000 soldiers against 200.000 civilians and 40.000 soldiers is not ethnic cleansing then i guess we should have moved the 40.000 soldiers and let you massacre everybody? sorry we learned our lesson in ww2 your politicians are well known nazis and terrorists + according to your posts a croat apparently does not even know/need a real reason to go to war..

wiki
Three Croatian generals, Ante Gotovina, Ivan Čermak and Mladen Markač, alleged to have been involved in the planning and execution of Operation Storm, were indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and are on trial in the Hague on charges of operating a joint criminal enterprise for the purpose of permanently removing the Serb population from the Krajina by force and of crimes against humanity


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm#War_crimes

sounds like a fine national holiday to me ...so when is jasenovac day coming?

[iggysick]

Well, you have your "truth" so that's why we didn't wanted to live in same country with you in first place and that's why Milosevic started the war. You said it yourself couple of times and yet you keep claiming that we started the war. First you should make your mind about it and than we can talk.

And yes, you will hardly find any croat who will see so called "ethnic cleansing" in Oluja. What you claim and what ICT wants to prove that Oluja was planned to do that "ethnic cleansing" which is completly lie. Trial of our general are ongoing in Hague and prosecution yet needs to prove their allegations.
If you going to use wiki as source you should use other side of story too:

RSK sources (Kovačević, Sekulić, Vrcelj, documents of HQ of Civilian Protection of RSK, Supreme Council of Defense) have confirmed that evacuation of Serbs was organized and planned beforehand. [21] (citing: [22] [23] [24], see section "Literature"), [25]. Greater Serb and pro-Greater Serb media, angry because of thorough defeat from the nation whome they found as "weak and uncapable" (and presented it as such in pre-war and wartime inflammatory articles), started a new, media war, accusing Croat forces that they "targeted Serbian civilians, as part of a campaign of ethnic cleansing", hiding and neglecting the planned nature of evacuation of Serbs.

source
They even had drills for it:
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=UYjh3aAvczc
Actually people like you are responsible why those people fled. People like you convinced them that we are all nazis coming to slaughter them and it's not surprising that they all fled in fear.
You keep going with same kind of propaganda even 13 years after war.
Eastern Slavonia was under occupation too and was integrated in Croatia peacefully:

Croatian operations that recaptured the rest of Serb-held Croatia did not target these parts of eastern Slavonia which remained under Serb control until 1995, when they agreed to peacefully reintegrate into Croatia by signing the Erdut Agreement, sponsored by the United Nations, that set up a transitional period during which the UNTAES peacekeepers would oversee the peaceful reintegration of this territory into Croatia. This process was completed in 1998.

source
Can you find sources how many serbs from that area we "massacred" after reintergration back into Croatia? Take as much time as you need... What have you to say about that huh? Isn't that proof that your fairy tales about coming "massacres" are nothing but fairy tales? If we were so bad nazis why didn't we massacred anyone after taking control of formerly occupied Eastern Slavonia? You can repeat your propaganda as long as you want but facts from real life proves your wrong. Period.
Whole region under occupation had a chance to do the same but they refused it and left us without any other option that use force.

you know im not amused any more with your avoiding my question: why did you turn on your countrymen? what was your price? what makes a croat murder over it? if you dont know why then that kinda speaks volumes about your nation??

Again, you repeat your false claims over and over again. We didn't turned on anyone. Your Milosevic did that and we were forced to defend our freedom. He even joined forces with chetniks and pure criminals to get our land! C'mmon man! JNA, which once was our army, joined forces with chetniks and pure criminals such Arkan was! And you asking me why we didn't wanted in "our" Yugoslavia any more?

The fate of those captured at Vukovar; both military and civilians; was grim. Many appear to have been summarily executed by Serbian paramilitaries; journalists visiting the town immediately after its fall reported seeing the streets strewn with bodies in civilian clothes. BBC television reporters recorded Serbian paramilitaries chanting:
“ Slobodane, Slobodane, šalji nam salate, biće mesa, biće mesa, klaćemo Hrvate! ("Slobodan [Milošević], Slobodan, send us some salad, [for] there will be meat, there will be meat, we will slaughter Croats") [7]

source
JNA and these freaks together and we shouldve accepted that same JNA us our army too?


Again, again and again, stop making false claims and than ask me questions based on those claims. I didn't took rifle to turn it on my countrymen. I took rifle to defend my home and my family from guys like those filmed by BBC and I would do it again if it comes to that again. I am proud of what I have done during the war and I feel no shame about anything. Those who commited war crimes from both side will hopefully get what they deserve but that will never change facts about who started the war and why.
What independence got me you ask? Hummm how about being free and alive instead of slaughtered by those guys filmed by BBC? Isn't that worth fighting for? Believe me, they didn't looked like government X instead government Y to me at all...

[atvking]

we didn't wanted to live in same country with you in first place and that's why Milosevic started the war.

theres the flaw in your logic...why start a war over something you already have? who needs to take action first? the ones that dont have anything or the ones that already have everything?

its endlessly amusing to me what you say about operation storm...sure it was an organized evacuation LOL and the 175.000 croat soldiers had NOTHING to do with it AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA ...youre borderline insane with these claims...oh sure 200.000 serbs woke up one day and said "hey lets leave our homes and lives and live like refugees in camps sounds like fun!"...tell me did the croat army hand out flowers while they were leaving?...I KNOW! the 175.000 croat soldiers were there to help move the furniture

ill tell you what how about we start a thread about "operation storm"? how about pre and post war ethnic maps of croatia (LOL) ...should i start the thread or do you want to start it and paint your pretty picture about 175.000 soldiers on 200.000 civilians (according to the UN)

Whole region under occupation had a chance to do the same but they refused it and left us without any other option that use force.

yes the whole region was under occupation of the serb minority living there and they did not want to bow down to terrorist friend and ethnic cleanser franjo so you had to use force...i know this already...but when you say you did not have any other option i beg to disagree...the other option to force was: peace

as for your reasons for separatism you cant state reasons that came AFTER THE WAR BEGAN...you have to be able to explain:

why independent croatia?= (what did franjo promise so you went to war and killed your countrymen for it?)


you just keep stating over and over that you wanted independence and that milosevic did not give it to you with his pants down and lube in asshole...

Hummm how about being free and alive instead of slaughtered by those guys filmed by BBC?

you would be slaughtered by our serb minority? (12%) JNA and chetniks? when you say JNA youre talking about the JUGOSLAV NATIONAL ARMY the army of all slovenians/croats/bosnians/serbs/montenegro/macedonia fighting YOUR separatists?...why would they just slaughter you and take your homes? OH I KNOW! franjo said so! AHAHAHAHAAAA and you accuse me of spreading false allegations BUT:

the croat double standard: when the serb minority have fears of living under separatist/nationalist/terrorist supporter franjo then they are just tripping out...but when the croat majority trips out they will be murdered off by the serb minority (12%) then this is legit and needs to be urgently acted upon

[ThraXed]

[iggysick]

Originally Posted by atvking

we didn't wanted to live in same country with you in first place and that's why Milosevic started the war.

theres the flaw in your logic...why start a war over something you already have? who needs to take action first? the ones that dont have anything or the ones that already have everything?

RSorry but how many times I have to repeat something until you get it? When we said we want out of Yugoslavia that was end of Yugoslavia and Milosevic started the war to keep us in Yugoslavia by force.

Originally Posted by atvking

its endlessly amusing to me what you say about operation storm...sure it was an organized evacuation LOL and the 175.000 croat soldiers had NOTHING to do with it AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA ...youre borderline insane with these claims...oh sure 200.000 serbs woke up one day and said "hey lets leave our homes and lives and live like refugees in camps sounds like fun!"...tell me did the croat army hand out flowers while they were leaving?...I KNOW! the 175.000 croat soldiers were there to help move the furniture

ill tell you what how about we start a thread about "operation storm"? how about pre and post war ethnic maps of croatia (LOL) ...should i start the thread or do you want to start it and paint your pretty picture about 175.000 soldiers on 200.000 civilians (according to the UN)

I show facts and all you show is "ahahahaha". Great arguments you have there.

Originally Posted by atvking

Whole region under occupation had a chance to do the same but they refused it and left us without any other option that use force.

yes the whole region was under occupation of the serb minority living there and they did not want to bow down to terrorist friend and ethnic cleanser franjo so you had to use force...i know this already...but when you say you did not have any other option i beg to disagree...the other option to force was: peace

Sure, we should let a part of our country taken by other nation. If they didn't wanted to live with us they were to free to leave our country. No one was forcing them to live with us.

Originally Posted by atvking

as for your reasons for separatism you cant state reasons that came AFTER THE WAR BEGAN...you have to be able to explain:

why independent croatia?= (what did franjo promise so you went to war and killed your countrymen for it?)

Again,, we didn't started the war. We were attacked and forced to defend our freedom from facist regime. Milosevic was monster, remember. Those was your words.

Originally Posted by atvking

you just keep stating over and over that you wanted independence and that milosevic did not give it to you with his pants down and lube in asshole...

[/QUOTE]

Again you are confirming who started the war and why.

Hummm how about being free and alive instead of slaughtered by those guys filmed by BBC?

Originally Posted by atvking

you would be slaughtered by our serb minority? (12%) JNA and chetniks? when you say JNA youre talking about the JUGOSLAV NATIONAL ARMY the army of all slovenians/croats/bosnians/serbs/montenegro/macedonia fighting YOUR separatists?...why would they just slaughter you and take your homes? OH I KNOW! franjo said so! AHAHAHAHAAAA and you accuse me of spreading false allegations BUT:

the croat double standard: when the serb minority have fears of living under separatist/nationalist/terrorist supporter franjo then they are just tripping out...but when the croat majority trips out they will be murdered off by the serb minority (12%) then this is legit and needs to be urgently acted upon

Sure, there were no chetniks at all and everything that happened from 91. to 95. was a fairy tale told by Franjo...
Seriously, if you wanna disscuss something at least try to provide some facts for your claims like I've did.