Best Copywriting Course from an IM perspective?

I was wondering what the best copywriting courses where out there. Does anyone have "Breakthough Copywriting"? Any other suggestions? Thanks so much.

Jordan

 

I doubt there is a "best." Every single one will have empty spots, because the field has too much information.

Many of the same rules of non-Internet copywriting apply. Your visitor is still a human being. I see a lot of people who think writing a specific way has recently evolved for the Net, when in reality it's simply style taken from copywriting and journalism (for instance, bullet writing).

If you look at websites selling info products, they are one long sales letter. This is copywriting. In fact, look at the website for the item you mentioned. That's traditional copywriting.

 

mj, whilst I agree there is no one course that is the magic bullitt. There are people that should be listened to and studied from a copywriting view.

Being new to copywriting I have just discovered John Carlton, who seems to be one of the most respected copywriters in the business. Rather than follow a course why not follow a person, read everything they have ever wrote and listen to everything they have ever said and study it. That is the path I am taking.

The dude even has a blog.

 

Correct. I have been in the copywriting field for some time. I have many books in my library on all aspects of writing, marketing and so forth.

I am just pointing out that there's no one perfect course. You have to start somewhere, but you should never end at the same place.

If you are going to buy someone's course, see what their credentials are. If they claim to make $x, see how much is a direct result of the copy and not other factors. Also make sure you get a guarantee. Any respectable course will give you at least 30 days to check everything out.

 

Agree 110%

I really get annoyed reading posts about the "huge difference" between writing for print (mags and journalism) and the web.

A perfect example is on one of my sites. My bar and restaurant reviewer for pattayai.com, a retired UK journalist, had never "written for the web." Have a look and tell me how hugely inappropriate for the web his writing is.

 

So if we are agreed that there are no "perfect courses", what are the best imperfect courses.

Some of them are very, very expensive. And so it would be best to get reccomendations.

 

LOL. There is no best imperfect course.

Actually, that's a personal matter. Are you completely new to copywriting? Have you had any experience? If so, how good are you?

If you are brand new, don't run out and spend $1,000 on some course. Spend a few dollars on a couple intro books and see how you like it and what you learn. You will also learn what you need to know when looking for more education.

 

I enjoy writing more so for entertainment than selling and because of that, my sales page was not converting. Actually I wasnt even sure if I was having an ok conversion rate untill I did some asking.

Anyway, I tried reading some VERY thick books and gave up, I wanted to blog and sell products, not spend hours copywriting so I went looking...and could afford a pro.

Now I am not saying that this is perfect or that it in anyway would be better to or equal to a professional, but if you just want to see if you made some glaring mistakes, or used some very "tainted words" glyphius is a great little piece of software. It lets you scan you text and shows you that "BUY NOW!" is not as effective as "purchase online"...that sort of thing

 

What makes me nervous about that software (http://www.glyphius.com/glyphius.html) is that it accepted the misspelling of mathematically on the webpage at least 3 times, including within the text it was supposed to be correcting.

 

It's not designed as a spell checker, It just rates each word, a misspelling will just be rated as 0. I use it frequently and it really does help get a handle on what a good piece of copywriting is.

 

I noticed that too, but it has been fixed already on one link
http://www.glyphius.com/
glyphius is not a spell checker.

Does anyone else have feedback on how well this software works?

 

If you're trying to write better sales copy, the "Net Writing Masters Course" is the best hands down. http://netwriting.sitesell.com/

 

From the sales copy:

Um, what? Oh wait, the trick is the word "netwriting." There are plenty of books on sales and copywriting that dive into the whole experience (promise, picture, etc). BTW, the copy on that site is full of holes and raises red flags all over the place. If that's indicative of the course material, stay away.

I guess this thread exposed the problem with asking for the "best" of anything. Every response is limited by experiences. Do you want a little Internet writing course (like the one mentioned above) or you are you looking for professional-grade eduction?

 

has anyone looked at or taken the artists and writers institute course? it is indorsed by copywriters like Robert Bly (who has written several of the indespensable books in my library). it costs $497. Here's a link: www.thewriterslife.com

any comments are welcome. thx

 

Not a suggestion for a course or software, just some food for thought...

Writing to sell is not the same as writing to inform. This is by far the biggest mistake I've seen among web writers. Writing to inform simply describes/tells a story. Writing to sell informs and more importantly has a call to action.

However, give the reader a call to action - don't make them deaf in the process.

As a previous post pointed out, a critical eye is the most powerful tool of any copywriter. Did you miss that? It was there.

Rather than spend good money on courses and materials, I would start by reading blogs and forums where some of the more successful copywriters hang out. Micheal Fortin's forum comes immediately to mind.

That forum is quite interesting as you will quickly learn that even the experts don't agree on what way of writing copy is the "right way".

The good and bad news is there is no bag of tricks to learn that will work for every project. Each piece has to be evaluated for its intended message and audience. Fail to do that and no matter how well you write you will rarely, if ever, make the sale.

 

If you want to get technical, copywriting is the art of writing copy for marketing & publicity. Many people use the term, wrongly, to describe journalism or general article writing. That's the main problem with some of the threads.

For instance, if you are writing an article on how to plant flowers for a paper, magazine or website, it's not copywriting--it's article writing. However, if you were to write that piece as a selling tool for a product/service, it can be considered copywriting. An example would be writing an article on how to plant flowers using a special tool that you happen to be selling.

In copywriting, when you write to "inform", you are writing to brand something. For example, writing an ad that shows a Mac with the copy, "Everyone loves a Mac." There's no call to action, because it's a branding piece. See "Soft Sale."

As to audience, you shouldn't even think about writing until you know your intended audience in great detail. "People that use computers" is not good enough. You need specifics.

 

Would anyone ever consider shelling out $2,499 for John Carltons' course? From what I have read he seems to be the hottest copywriter on the web.

 

Nope.

There are more experienced copywriters teaching for less. Also, there comes a point when it's just overkill. At some point, you either have what it takes to be a copywriter or you don't.

If I knew absolutely nothing, here's what I might do:

1. Buy the top 20 copywriting books (used condition) from Amazon.com - Cost $200-$350

2. Take a course from a respected copywriter (real word one) that's under $700. If that's not an option, I would take a course in copywriting from my local college (university or community). Cost: $150-$300

3. Practice what I learned.

Here's a tip. Never buy something that's priced solely on what you "could" end up making. For example, some guy selling a program for $5,000, because you could use it to make thousands more. That's foolish.

 

I wouldn't. Carlton is self proclaimed "hot" (as any writer is), but why would you do that? I learned to write copy for the web by experience and using web tools.

People say there isn't a difference between writing for magazines and writing for the web, and that is just silly. I am simply stunned by the amount of posters on this forum that feel there isn't a difference. Some are even violently apposed to the fact that for every medium of writing, the style and skills are different.

To me, saying that writing for a magazine (copy or article) is the same as writing for a web site-- is just like saying that writing a script for a movie, is the same as writing a script for the stage. Or writing a novel is just like writing 12 short stories about the same characters. The idea is so far out of touch that it borders on the hilarious, and if it wasn't so prevalent, I would ignore it, but I have been reading it for several days now.

A good point in this thread that was brought up is that copy is copy, not article writing, so let's stay there. Be clear here that we are talking about copy that sells, not copy that informs.

Copy that sells on the web is

• Found by web searchers
• Read by web searchers
• Acted on by web searchers

The same copy might be used in a magazine as well. I'm not saying there aren't similarities, but there are similarities between a Cigarette racer and a Yacht as well. Both are expensive, both show class and style. Both float. Owning either one will probably get you laid. The similarities are staggering, until you see them on the water.

The water in this case is the reader. Let's take an example here, since it was asked above by a poster to take a look and see if this writer's ability was web appropriate.

The fact is that if this website used an experienced web writer, his traffic would be triple what it currently is, and his readership would double.

Okay, let's take a typical example off that website:
http://www.pattayai.com/review-food-pit-stop-pizza.htm

Nothing wrong with the article, you might expect to see it in either a magazine (which apparently the writer is most experienced) or on the web.

If this is sell copy, which it should be, it falls miserably flat. I am briefly informed, but not emotionally involved. I am versed in the restaurant, but not driven to try it out. Again, this could happen with web or magazine. Whether it is sell copy or intended to be just a review is really not the point. It isn't written for the web, it is written for a newspaper or magazine.

Where it falls short for the web is:

• No web site build
• No other page referral
• No sell for the web site as a whole
• No depth of information
• No referral to more information
• No need to return
• No reader involvement
• No active voice

You can get away without those things in a magazine, especially as a staff writer, or restaurant reviewer, but for content on the web it kills the page.

I'm not saying that his writing isn't good... in fact it is, but he isn't writing for the web, his focus is on his experience, writing restaurant reviews. He did exactly what he was hired to do and did it well. He made a static, stand-alone page.

The confluence creating this page is; he is an experienced writer with a long track record and the website owner is not educated in web marketing so doesn't understand the difference between the yacht and the cigarette racer. They both float and are well designed but ... this one isn't going as fast, and that one isn't going as far, and he doesn't know enough to ask why.

He's getting laid, so why does he care?

I could write a book on the lack of "web ability" between this review and a review created by a web writer (and in fact that isn't a bad idea), but let's just take one aspect and really look at it (if you aren't up for the read, then just start posting your debates now).

No other page referral

You hardly ever see someone without real web knowledge do this one. If you see this aspect used, then you found a good, informed web writer. Not just a copy writer.

Linking to another page inside the content of the article, the SEO will tell you, helps the website as a whole get indexed by search engines, and believe it or not, they are right on this one. But that's SEO stuff, and common knowledge for web owners.

What it also does is promote a second page view by the reader. Let's add a line to the beginning of this article:

Now we've done some real effective things. First off, we have captured the interest of a reader by contrast. If this was the first page viewed on this website, and the reader was more interested in a Thai Food restaurant, than going all the way to Thailand and getting a Pizza, we have linked him to a page for that style of dining instantly.

If the reader has already seen that page, he'll know that this restaurant is very close.

If the reader is going through pages, this link may get him to see another one.

If the reader wants more information about restaurants in the same area, to plan a week of dining he has the information right there.

There are several other enhancements to the review this simple change does, but this isn't a book, so let's move on.

You may say "But Glenn, the menu area does that" ... so what? It doesn't do it as effectively as putting a link and referral directly inside the text of the article, and a web writer knows that. Hell its second nature to enhance the website you write for.

What else does this do? It tracks readers through page views from page views, by giving them a path. This is for your Analytics program. (remember, this is the web, visitor page tracking is important. I know magazine owners would give their right arm to know the true reading path of their readers ... if you don't know what I'm talking about here, then get a book because it is really important stuff).

It limits page bouncing, by giving a direct "advised" path to another page on the same website.

Websites are, for the most part, static information. New articles are posted all the time ( I get that), but once posted, they are there for the duration. The reader must be directed to those other articles for the website to grow.

Now, that is just one aspect of web writing (from the long and incomplete list I put above) that this "experienced content writer" didn't do for his client. He probably didn't even think about it, or any of the others. Never crossed his mind.

Content and Copy writers for the printed world think in matters of the article or the content sale. They may, very rarely, think in terms of the issue or the branding of the magazine/newspaper they are writing for.

Web writers think in terms of the whole website they are writing for and the activity of the readers. It is like comparing 2 dimensions to three.

Yeah, you are getting laid, but by whom and for how long?

The fact is that if this website used an experienced web writer, his traffic would be triple what it currently is, and his readership would double.

I'll even post the challenge, that if the owner of this site would edit each of those reviews and put in this single aspect I've pointed out, on each of his pages, he'll increase his page views by %50 in three weeks. Just write a quick little blurb about some other page (like I did above), don't worry about how good it is, just refer to another restaurant, with a valid reason for going there, or perhaps being interested, and the link. That's it. Just that little, single thing...

Then come back here and tell me if you are getting laid or doing it yourself.

 

First, thanks for the time that people have taking to post info here.

I do not have enough knowledge to know whether he is hot or not, but I am reading a lot of other top copywriters and marketers who say he is. Gary Halbert for instance.

I realise a lot of these dudes are mates and there is a bit of mutual back running going on, but he seems to be quite successful and has worked on some huge projects.

I am interested in what people here think are great copywriters to follow. I have taken Marketjunctions' advice and spent $60 on copywriting books. When I have read them I will buy some more.

On the webcopy vs dead tree copy, I read my Sunday Papers a lot different to a blog and so I would expect copy to take that into account. However, spinning a yarn and telling a story never changes. But the medium can have an effect on style.

glennhefley
I don't understand how you can learn copywriting from webtools. Trial and error, learning by implementation sure. But what web tool can teach you how to get your readers juices going and make him pull out his wallet and give you money.

I've been listening to Carltons' podcasts and he seems to know what he is talking about. I particularly like his tip on "imagine people are walking around out there with your money in their pockets, it's what you write that will get it back." I paraphrase.