Watching Judge Judy - Crime to spank children?

I don't have children, But i have raised them. I raised 2 of my sisters, On my own, Between when i was 21 and 25. So i guess that puts a stop to your cowardly attempt at excluding people who are presenting a better case than you from the discussion based on your assumption that they lack experience of the subject being discussed.

Now answer my question, There's a good lad.

 

Well, interesting observation, Logic. I've been reamed a bit for spilling a bit too much personal backstory here, and perhaps rightly so, but the truth of it is that for me, the "discipline philosophy" brought me to leave home by the time I was a young teen, for good, and it's only been some native abilities, luck, and a lot of caring people otherwise, that kept me alive long enough to climb back. It ain't over, and I'm nearing 50. No, it isn't necessarily "good" for kids.

 

I agree with you,a swat on the butt is fine. Most parents would rather drug the kids with downers and that's why they came up with ADD. Parents push off the undisciplined kids on school teachers and many do belong in straight jackets. I would never drug my children out of their minds and be OK with it.

 

Already answered your question. You just dont like the answer. Fine with me. As for someone presenting a better case, havent seen it happen.

As for you spending a whopping 4 years in the trenches... who knows... multiply that a bunch of times and maybe you can claim a little experience. Being responsible for a few kids for 4 years isnt like raising them from scratch to adulthood... but nice try.

 

Northpoint -Sorry you had an unhappy childhood. Time to quit whining about it.

I see you deleted the post telling me to evolve, but yes, i saw it. You wanna offend, knock yourself out, but you dont get slack for getting touchy and then getting nasty. Grow the fuck up.

 

A swat on the butt is different from child abuse. I don't think you are advocating abuse are you ROB? Just discipline correct?

 

I didn't see an answer that could apply to the question i asked. Could you copy and paste the relevant parts again for me.

I'm pretty sure if i could go four years raising 2 children on my own without hitting them i could have done the rest in the same fashion. Or is it anyone who had anything but than the exact same circumstances as you who is excluded from having an opinion? Seem to be full of excuses today rob.

If someone has to hit a child it has to be either because they don't know any other way, Which is their fault, Or because they have raised a child which can only be controlled with violence which, again, would be their fault. Time to take responsibility, rob.

 

Rob - difficult as this seems to be for you to understand, I deleted it because it was offensive, and I don't want to be offensive. Even though I wasn't speaking to you, personally, but to a position - yes, I consider swatting a kid's ass to be a throwback, much like lots of other crap done in the name of "discipline," (how's that chastity belt fit, lady?) and it is time for us to evolve. But after posting it, it was best left out, so I removed it - can you not get the notion of "edit" so as not to offend? Difficult one for you?

The rest of it, if we were in person, I'd simply help you to a new understanding. Not a big fan of keyboard bravery, buddy.

 

Politically correct people are so good at telling others what to do Stox, but thanks, I already did it successfully without your assistance. Feel free to "help" someone that thinks you arent basically talking outta your hat. I havent advocated child abuse, and anyone that wants to think I have is speaking from ignorance.

As for cutting and pasting for you... naah. Work on that ready comprehension thing. If you cant catch the answer the first time, not my job to point you to it.

 

Rob awesome awesome post. Just explained everything i was thinking. It showed you cared enough for those kids not to allow them to act like spoiled brats around u. Bravo

 

Trauma alters the way certain biological systems work, sometimes permanently. This includes the systems that regulate arousal and response to [stressful] stimuli. Because these systems are screwed with, especially in childhood when they are still being wired up, they render people unable to appropriately respond to stimuli, or sometimes even create the need to feel aroused by seeking out situations similar to the trauma that caused the problem in the first place.
There's a lot of stimulation seeking in this forum by several members including myself that I would suspect was created by not-so-good childhood experiences. (of course some are just plain old addicts LOL)

 

Rob, You know as well as i do that my reasons for asking you to copy and past your reply to my question was because no such reply was made. So i'll ask it again to see if any one else can muster the intellectual courage which was so obviously lacking in yourself (seems your "courage" is limited to raising your hand to people smaller, weaker and more vulnerable than you to make up for your inadequacies);

What is it that a child does/has that makes hitting them acceptable where as doing it to an animal or mentally disabled adult would be considered unacceptable, even if done for the same reasons.

I wouldn't have so much of a problem if people admitted that they hit their kids because they personally aren't equipped to deal with the situation in any other way, or because they have raised a child which can only be controlled through violence. Id still disagree with them, But at least it would be more honest than claiming that the fact that they have to do it is no fault of their own.

 

You have no clue what you're talking about, and have drawn a totally incorrect conclusion. The simple fact that in your opinion ALL corporal punishment is evil doesnt make it a fact, and many children have grown to productive and happy adulthood with that longstanding practice. Do I advocate "beating" children? No. In my experience the worst brats I've seen were raised by people that share your "enightened" views. Sorry, but results are not on your side.

If you cant figure out the difference between simple parental discipline and beating the snot out of a kid that isnt my problem, but it just isnt the same thing. We arm our policemen with guns, but we dont advocate shooting every citizen that breaks the speed limit. Learning the nuance between appropriate and excessive is just part of growing up.

You can't label every use of something "bad" simply on the grounds that used in excess it is harmful. That's a shortsighted approach.

 

There is some violence worse than others, But the fact that a smack isn't as bad as a punch is no more to the point than a punch isn't as bad as assault with a deadly weapon. if your point is simply that not all violence is equal I'd agree, There would be no dispute there. My point is that regardless of the severity, violence is still violence, And hitting someone, whoever and for whatever reason, With the intention of causing pain, Regardless how much, is violence. Now your job is to justify the use of violence which, In the case of self defence, Would be easy. Though in the case of forcing a child to comply, will not.

Now, If you have children who you feel you have to sometimes hit, regardless how often and regardless how hard, It can only be for one of 2 reasons;
1. You don't know any other way of convincing them to comply. which is your fault.
2. You have children who will only comply if hit. Which is also your fault.

If some people find they can raise perfectly healthy, disciplined children without hitting them and you find you can not it must be a problem with you.

 

Some evidence. American Pediatric Association (with data to support its contentions):

Completely agree, and my main point. The beyond ridiculous soundbite that "non-spanking parents raise sociopathic kids that need straight jackets" aside, there is a whole toolbox available that doesn't devolve to hurting a child. Ignoring the evidence on spanking's deleterious effects, for the moment, why not do the one that doesn't hurt the kid, when both result in complete, happy human beings?

 

I have spanked my kid before. Not really to inflict pain but more for the reinforcement of it. Usually I will pick them up and just give them a good ol bear hug, or pick them up and set them down in a chair, but my kids are still small. I always talk to my kid about it though. I make sure they understand what they have done wrong and why it is unacceptable. I find that children really do want to be good, fit in, be happy, and all that sort of thing, so usually they will behave and respect discipline as long as it is consistent, fair and explained for them. Raising children is not a cut and dry science though. Different kids have different needs at different times. I am not willing to say I would never spank my child for fear of trauma because I am not willing to give up a tool that I might need one day and because if I make decisions based on fear of them getting hurt they would never leave their rooms.

 

Might wanna remove the quotation marks when paraphrasing just to create a strawman argument. That isnt a quote though it is made to appear as such. Weak way of attempting to win a point, and not logically valid.

It also doesnt logically follow that because *your* childhood was marred by abuse that ALL parents who correctly incorporate a swat on the rear as one tool in the big parenting toolbox are wrong or abusive. Bad case of the premise not proving the conclusion. Deal with your demons without deciding everyone is evil. Just isnt true.

 

Have mercy, my parents grew up in a small mountain village of 3200 people and 99% of the parents there spanked their children when they were little, and you know what ? Almost all of them not only grew up normally but grew up exceptionally well because they knew their parents not only spanked them but talked to them after about why they spanked them. None had these pyscho-babble mental problems some of you talk about because in between the spankings, there was alot of love that was given. The problem today is that the family unit is totally gone and the children run the assylum. I personally think what we should do is let the kids wear the pants in the family. I know, maybe a psychologist can prescribe some medicine to take the place of good old fashion discipline and communication.
WHAT A JOKE!!!

Maybe stox can go into that village and tell these people that their kids were wrongly disciplined loooooooooooooool. I can only see the laughter now lol.
It was only recently when the new age of kids started growing up that some started disciplining their kids like stox is promoting us to do, and you know what,
They have started to turn out very bad. No one can tell them what to do. They want to be like the modern world is. 65% divorce rate here we come

 

I wanted to respond to this some more. I have a 4 year old and as my first child I have tried everything so I feel my input is unbiased and laymen but still somewhat informed

Spanking is a hot topic in my extended family. Mother in Law spanks too hard and inconsistently in my opinion. I bite my tongue and ask my wife to talk to her and things have gotten better. I don't think spanking should be done in anger and being inconsistent and spanking to inflict stinging pain is emotional to me. Father in Law, and my family never spank my child but I was spanked growing up as a regular form of discipline. Sister in law spanks my child when she babysits but never hard and all my child ever displays is a hurt ego. I actually never spank anymore but when she was closer to 3 I did often.

Anyway...

Despite its common acceptance, and even advocacy for its use, spanking is a less effective strategy than time-out or removal of privileges for reducing undesired behavior in children. Although spanking may immediately reduce or stop an undesired behavior, its effectiveness decreases with subsequent use. The only way to maintain the initial effect of spanking is to systematically increase the intensity with which it is delivered, which can quickly escalate into abuse. Thus, at best, spanking is only effective when used in selective infrequent situations.

Another way to maintain the initial effect of spanking is to back it up with time out and a talk. And yes infrequently.


* Spanking children <18 months of age increases the chance of physical injury, and the child is unlikely to understand the connection between the behavior and the punishment.

I couldn't imagine spanking an 18 month old. My hand is so big I would be hitting them in the kidneys.

* Although spanking may result in a reaction of shock by the child and cessation of the undesired behavior, repeated spanking may cause agitated, aggressive behavior in the child that may lead to physical altercation between parent and child.Yes violence breeds violence and one reason I stopped spanking my child is that she seemed to be becoming violent with others like the family pet. I don't want a sociopath.

* Spanking models aggressive behavior as a solution to conflict and has been associated with increased aggression in preschool and school children.
(The point both Stox and I have been trying to get across, to no avail).
Point taken. This is however a dog eat dog world and at some point your children will encounter these aggressive behaviors. To be aggressive is not necessarily a bad thing as long as a child understands the ways it is used to control others and that it is usually more constructive to be assertive. Aggressive does not have to be channeled into destructive or abusive. If a parent understands this they can teach it to their child.

* Spanking and threats of spanking lead to altered parent-child relationships, making discipline substantially more difficult when physical punishment is no longer an option, such as with adolescents.
From my own childhood this is very real. When I was no longer afraid of my fathers belt he became an old man to me. I took a swing at him and he put me on the ground with his knee on my chest. I couldn't move an inch and I was 16, he was 56. It put me in my place and I lived by their rules until I moved out.

* Spanking is no more effective as a long-term strategy than other approaches, and reliance on spanking as a discipline approach makes other discipline strategies less effective to use. Time-out and positive reinforcement of other behaviors are more difficult to implement and take longer to become effective when spanking has previously been a primary method of discipline.
I agree with this. The caveats are all there though. Primary method, no more effective as a long term method etc. Time out and positive reinforcement are hard anyway too. They take time and long term investment. It means talking to your kid when you just want to scream, going to the park when they are good even though you would rather watch television.
* A pattern of spanking may be sustained or increased. Because spanking may provide the parent some relief from anger, the likelihood that the parent will spank the child in the future is increased.
If a parent cannot control their anger or their aggression then their child will probably never learn to either, regardless of whether that anger or aggression is directed at the child or not.

Parents who spank their children are more likely to use other unacceptable forms of corporal punishment. The more children are spanked, the more anger they report as adults, the more likely they are to spank their own children, the more likely they are to approve of hitting a spouse, and the more marital conflict they experience as adults. Spanking has been associated with higher rates of physical aggression, more substance abuse, and increased risk of crime and violence when used with older children and adolescents.

I have to wonder who fills out these surveys honestly.

# Parents are more likely to use aversive techniques of discipline when they are angry or irritable, depressed, fatigued, and stressed. In 44% of those surveyed, corporal punishment was used >= 50% of the time because the parent had lost it. Approximately 85% expressed moderate to high anger, remorse, and agitation while punishing their children. These findings challenge most the notion that parents can spank in a calm, planned manner. It is best not to administer any punishments while in a state of anger.
I put my child in time out when I am angry. I go in one room and she goes in another, I calm down and then I go talk to her about what happened and why she is in trouble. It is really easier in the long run but sometimes she will resist all punishments, especially if there is company over. Then I have been known to give her a swat on the butt and send her to bed.

# Spanking of young children is highly correlated with continued spanking of school and adolescent children. More than half of 13- and 14-year-olds are still being hit an average eight times per year. Parents who have relied on spanking do not seem to shift strategies when the risks of detrimental effects increase with developmental age, as has been argued.
If your kid is older than 8 and they do not respect you or understand why they should behave honorably and decently then you are already in big trouble.

# Spanking of preschool boys by fathers with whom the child identified only moderately or little resulted in increased aggressive behavior by those children.Distant or disfunctional fathers cause all sorts of disturbing behaviors whether they spank the child or not, especially in boys. In fact entire books have been written about the decline of good father figures and the lack of good archetypes in general for boys in the modern west.

# Although 93% of parents justify spanking, 85% say that they would rather not if they had an alternative in which they believed. One study found that 54% of mothers said that spanking was the wrong thing to have done in at least half of the times they used it. This ambivalence likely results in inconsistent use, which limits further its effectiveness as a teaching tool.
Be consistent, use sparingly.

# Although spanking has been shown to be effective as a back-up to enforce a time-out location, it was not more effective than use of a barrier as an alternative.I don't think ducktaping my child to the chair is better than a swat on the butt, but I guess I could try

# Even controlling for baseline antisocial behavior, the more 3- to 6-year-old children were hit, the worse their behavior when assessed 2 years later.
I will have to read that study. What other parenting tools were used? What were the other factors in these childrens lives.

# Actions causing pain such as spanking can acquire a positive value rather than the intended adversive value.31 Children who expect pain may actually seek it through escalating misbehaviors. (Logic's point - an apt one).
Seeking negative attention. I would agree that it is better to reinforce the positive than to accentuate the negative

# Parents who spank are more likely to use other forms of corporal punishment and a greater variety of verbal and other punitive methods. When punishment fails, parents who rely on it tend to increase the intensity of its use rather than to change strategies.
I have actually had a lot of talks with my wife about this.Especially verbal, punitive methods. Things like bribery or threats. "You can't do X unless you do Y". I don't like that and I don't think it works at all. It instills the concept of variable standards and bargaining morals. Standards and morals should be absolute in my opinion and I intend to instill my moral code in my children through reason and explaining it's natural benefits. Basically we have this same fight all the time only with less sources cited.

 

Rob, why do you think some parents can raise perfectly healthy, well balanced disciplined children without hitting them while you find it impossible?
Are you going to resort to blaming your children now?