Should the motto "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

Yep, including Jefferson, a man I otherwise deeply admire. Unbelievable that a man with such prowess of mind and spirit, who wrote this:

Could own slaves, and espouse a "natural" hierarchy of races. *** I don't find any kind of justification in his apparent personal debt, which he deemed too great to end his own practice of slavery during his lifetime.

*** Bear with this, and, in a way, off topic. A position he repudiated in later life (1809 letter to the Abbé Gregoire, French revolutionary figure):

***Interesting to me that this letter to the Abbé, formed during the time of Jefferson's (arguable, but likely) relationship with Sally Hemmings, shows some of the same context that Shakespeare's plays and sonnets seem to show after what the period of his own putative relationship with a black woman - the "Dark Lady" of the sonnets. If Shakespeare's early plays tended to be about vengeance and revenge (think history cycle, the "Henry" plays, or Titus Andronicus), his later plays, taking place after the advent of his presumed relationship with the "Dark Lady" tend to move towards a more compassionate, universalist view of mankind (think, "The Tempest."). An interesting parallel to Jefferson's own relationship, and changed worldview.

A conflicted, imperfect genius.

 

I find that difficult to believe. It may very well not have been in his farewell speech, but it is well documented that he said it:

http://www.google.com/search?source...ithout+God+and+the+Bible."&btnG=Google+Search

So the idea that it may not have been in his farewell speech, doesn't discount the fact he said it.

I don't blame you. It would certainly prove that maybe it's not everyone else that needs to look into what our Founding Fathers believed.

Really? How did you disprove what Washington said? Wasn't it you that said others need to read up about our Founding Fathers? Perhaps it's not everyone else that needs to read up? I can certainly accept that he may not have said it in his Farewell Speech. There's a lot of information out there, however, it doesn't discount the fact that he did actually say such.

Really? You just said you weren't going to bother researching the others, but then you claim you already know they do not exist. But the quote you thought didn't exist, actually does exist. Shouldn't the facts matter? Wouldn't it be a better to prove those quotes do not exist? Or is it just easier to say they do not exist and hope no one questions?

Who said it changes the Constitution? The fact that our Country was based upon Christian principles, as clearly sourced comments from those very Fathers illustrates doesn't negate the Constitution, either way.

Paul, understood. I wouldn't accuse you of such either. You are a man of honor, however, I disagree when it comes to the notion that America was not founded on Christian Principles. There is too much information that clearly shows it was. There are certainly quotes by a few Founding Fathers that can be argued that America is not a Christian Nation, however, my point is, that our nation was founded on Christian principles.

We need only look at what some of our Founding Fathers had to say, as illustrated above, to come to this conclusion.

 

Actually a bunch of religious sites claiming he said it, claiming he said it in his 'farewell speech' when in fact you can see he did not say it in his farewell speech surely would show to me he did not say it.



The quote of Patrick Henry also appears to be a forgery...

BTW there are sites that have data bases of Washington's papers, they do not return a single result for the quote you claim exists.

You are copying and pasting from religious sites, nothing more, nothing less. It's sad that you didn't bother to research before spouting it off, what's even sadder is even when caught with your pants down you still claim it to be a fact. My research shows it never happened, your own words being his farewell speech 'the farewell speech' shows it never happened.

So yes, people truly do need to learn a bit more, instead of relying on either religious or anti religious sites.

 

Ah, so if he didn't say it, and it's not worded exactly as suggested, then it never could have been said? Is that really what you are trying to convey? Please tell me otherwise!

How so? Is it just because you say so, or do you have something to show otherwise?

It's derived from:

Why? It's very much out there. I can accept if the quote isn't an exact match or wasn't in the farewell speech. I mentioned that above.

We can agree on that. Still doesn't discount the others, nor does it disprove our Country was founded on Christian principles. You'll have to work harder for that.

 

I'm stating what you said was incorrect and was not a fact, pretty simple really.

If you do any research you will find there is no proof he said it other than religious sites and blogs saying as much.

That does not even closely resemble the quote you tried to claim he made. Usually when one 'quotes' someone they 'quote' them, they do not reword and change the meaning of what they said.

Versus

They don't even resemble one another.

It's not even remotely close....

Again even if every single founding father was a priest it does not change the meaning of the constitution.

 

Pertaining to a word for word quote from Washington, only, I don't take exception with that. You mentioned the others, but have offered nothing otherwise. What happened to Henry?

There are a number of sites out there that offer this, not just religious sites and blogs.

Wiki seems to have the exact wording:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Washington

So it's not word for word, and I can accept that, however the meaning is still there. This is probably why you could not find it in online databases.

And I'm more than happy to stick with that quote for Washington, along with the others posted. What I posted was not word for word, but the meaning of the above goes along with my point, none-the-less. And now we know exactly what he DID write

Like I said last time, I don't make this argument. It has no bearing to anything I've said. What I state is, "Our Country was founded upon Christian Principles." I have no idea how you are deriving that to mean I'm suggesting the simple fact that our Country was based upon Christian Principles equates to the meaning of the Constitution changing. They are completely separate arguments.

 

Regarding Washington's final address, here is what I have found. It is clear that Washington received suggestions, some more strongly urged than others, as to the final form of his address; among them, Hamilton:

Library of Congress - Religion and the Federal Government

The relevant sections on religion and morality are Sections 27 & 28, in final form:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Washington%27s_Farewell_Address#27

Section 28 is also included on the Library of Congress's cover page on the subject:

I have not found any versions of his final speech containing the clause, "It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible," except on certain religious websites.

It is clear to me, that the Founders were in substantive disagreement with each other - allow me to post John Adams's Fast Day Proclamation, followed by Jefferson's Virginia Proclamation, in relevant part, again:

"Urged the citizens" is clearly at odds with the proscription against "intrud[ing] his [magistrate's] powers into the field of opinion."

I'd have to conclude, forget the Japanese term, but it was given as an emblem of my late Teacher's nature - "one who stirs the pot." He made no provisions for succession on his death, and it seems, by my read (prompted by this discussion), the Founders were much further apart on the subject than I had previously known. They left it unresolved, it seems to me - they "stirred the pot" for us to figure out.

I adhere to Jefferson's ideal.

 

Here's an updated list, with the *exact* wording of Washington:

For example, John Jay was one of the framers of the Constitution and the first Supreme Court Justice. He noted:

Patrick Henry, the notable Founding Father who is credited with "Give me liberty or give me death," wrote:

Thomas Jefferson, wrote in his Bible:

George Washington, offered:

John Adams, a noted Founding Father offered:

John Quincy Adams, President, Son of John Adams and Chairman of the American Bible Society offered:

Calvin Coolidge, President, offered:

I previously mentioned this site, which documents a number of cases to validate the idea that our Country was founded on Christian principles.

There simply is no question about it. America was founded on Christian principles.

 

Wade, I'm not seeing:

Anywhere in Washington's final address. I tried to post the full address, but at 38205 characters, my post was too long. It's here, and again, the relevant sections on religion are 27, 28, and I don't see the quote there - though, as I said, outside of the clause "It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible," which does appear to be manufactured, and virally promulgated on the web, your initial quote was accurate - see above.

The rest, looking forward to investigating, to include how much Enlightenment rationalism informed the Christianity of believing Founders (e.g., Jefferson's excising descriptions of miracles/supernatural events from his Bible). My real issue is with exactly what was intended by the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Specific, and vitally important to this, it seems to me, is whether the Founders distinguished their private faith from public governance. In other words,

and

Well, I don't see these two sentiments as contradictory, because the first affirms a belief Americans will be a religious people, in a word, and the second categorically states the state should have no relationship to that religious sensibility. Elsewhere, particularly his letters, apparently, his views on the danger of mixing church and state are quite unambiguous:

And it isn't clear to me many of the Founders weren't themselves conflicted in their breast on this issue. At least for now, difficult for me to square:

with

Though the first statement speaks only to religious sensibility in general principle, and the second denies the American system of government was founded on Christianity, it is clear to me from other writings that Adams was conflicted, at best, on this issue.

More digging. Great topic.

 

Agreed. I ceded this to grim as well, however, did find the original quote which is not entirely far off. In fact, I'm as completely comfortable with the exact quote, as the one originally posted.

Indeed. There were many Founders and many seemed to have differing opinions.

The quote I find most intriguing from John Adams, is:

To me, that clearly reads that our Country was founded on Christian Principles, in that Adams believed it to be made for a moral and religious people, and at that time, Christianity in all it's varying denominations, was the established religion in our burgeoning country.

My Uncle gave me a book earlier this year, that he received from an estate sale buyout, called "Jefferson's Letters." One of these days, when I decide to shut the world out, I plan to sit down and read it. It's very, very old. Not sure of the date, or if it has one, but it's so old, I get nervous opening it up.

 

I updated the new listing, just above. I had forgot to remove the text that the quote as from his farewell speech. It was not from his farewell speech and when I updated the actual quote from this source, I forgot to remove "from his farewell speech." I just removed it, in the updated list, so that it would be accurate.

Reading some of the excerpts from the LOC link I posted, it sure seems like there is argument they were crossing that line very generously back then. I can't help but wonder if, when they stated that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion," if "religion" was not intended to be, or another word for, "Christianity."

Here's why...at that time, virtually all religions in our new country were variations of Christianity. There is no question that Congress did, in some ways, promote and push Christianity with great reverence, but notably missing were any particular denominations of Christianity. Just thinking out loud.

P.S. I gotta get some sleep Thank you for the thought provoking debate and insights.

 

Sorry if this was already covered - late, bleary-eyed, etc. They are the same thing, the two quotes, with the exception that Washington's actual speech said nothing about the Bible - it spoke to religion generally. I'm troubled by the apparent manufacturing by websites of this clause, "It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible," when this was not in his speech. It appears entirely manufactured. Nevertheless, Washington's sentiments are clear.

We must have crossed in posting, since I'm intrigued by the apparent disconnect between this, and,

Except that the first statement, "moral and religious principles," doesn't state "Christian principles" specifically. Particularly given his pre-amble to the treaty of Tripoli, "not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion," I'm left with a quandary, for further thought.

Man, incredible resource. I understand the old thing - I have a 1743 German text, to my knowledge, the first book to codify modern naturopathy as medical science.

Edit: just saw your second post...great food for thought, and, like you, cashed. Anyone crazy enough to stay up, night all.

 

I had a huge post in my head last night 'as I do a lot of the time' but instead of posting it I went to sleep.

The basics however are......

#1 Were many of the original founding fathers as well as the settlers religious? Yes of course they were, not all were but many were.
#2 Religion did drive many back then as it does today, to state the country is founded upon religion, especially a particular religion however I do not buy. If anything the country was founded on the basis of government not getting involved in the religion of the people making it the complete exact opposite of being created through and for religion like so many try to claim.
#3 If the US was created by and for a particular religion like so many claim our constitution would state it, our government buildings would have been more along the lines of churches, our laws would have been directly from the bible and not mere resemblances from morals and standard laws that preexisted the bible.
#4 If anything a bunch of people came together, many who were religious but from different branches of Christianity and others to make certain the government stayed out of their lives, did not intrude on their religious beliefs among others.

I simply see no proof, nothing to the point that we are a religious nation, our country was founded for the purpose upon god, or anything of the sort. In all reality while actually reading and taking in some of the arguments of those who are trying to claim it was it makes me feel even more so that it was in fact not, and that those who fought and died for religious reasons did not do it to further their religion, to make their religion apart of the government, in fact they did it for the exact opposite reason, to keep the government the Fuxx out of their chosen religion.

Politicians even back then made concessions to keep the masses happy, such concessions could easily be speeches about god. Similar to politicians today stating they are in private for one thing, but in public shifting support for a particular item. A few butchered quotes is far from showing the US was founded upon god.

Such as the quotes given, without too much research I have concluded 2 of the quotes are forgeries and 1 appears to of happened much after the declaration of independence. As stated what one believes at 50 does not make it the same as what that person believed at 20. The other quotes I have not even looked into yet, however yet again it does not matter if they were all priests. If the founding of this country was on religion, if that was the basis of the country, our constitution would show it.

Of course after the fact that the country was created some tried to get their religion be known and promoted in government, much like it is today. It still comes far short of the country being founded upon religion, nothing shown yet even makes me double think my position here, if anything it has inadvertently strengthened my position. Especially after seeing so called religious sites using blatantly false information to promote their stance, makes me not take anything on their sites with a grain of salt.

Enough rambling for now, I just woke up and am sure will regret posting this

 

Not at all.

 

My eyes were burning last night. Was a good debate though.

This isn't an argument I make, so it has no bearing on the discussion. I don't argue that all, any, or some were religious. It seems self-evident that most were, so it's not a point of contention.

I'm not asking anone to "buy" it. The evidence is so overwhelming, it doesn't need to be sold. Just presented.

I disagree completely. As the numerous quotes I provided illustrate, our country was founded upon Christian principles and many of our Founding Fathers acknowledge such. As does the history, provided from the Library of Congress I posted above.

I would give them more credit than a "bunch of people," but I see your point, none-the-less and agree. I don't argue that the Constitution does not provide everyone the opportunity to practice the religion they choose. So it's really another moot point, at least for me.

It's not up to you to see it, whether it's because you do not want to, or may not like the idea. However, as the quotes I provided above clearly illustrate, our Country was founded upon Christian Principles. There are a number of quotes above, from our Founding Fathers, that clearly illustrate it was.

I haven't seen any "butchered quotes." You won a small technicality on the word for word quoting of Washington, which I later corrected and am perfectly fine with the actual quote. I also updated it just above. So the notion of "butchered quotes" does hold any value at this point.

You concluded one was not word for word. I ceded that and see no reason why it needs to be reiterated every post. I updated that quote above with Washington's actual quote and still stand by it. The message is the same.

No idea where the other one is coming from. The idea of when our Founding Fathers were quoted has no bearing either. The quotes make it clear that our Country was founded upon Christian principles. The idea that they must have said it before the Constitution was framed, or it's not valid, is not a viable argument.

That you may have some issues with Christians in general has no bearing on the argument. Given all the quotes and information provided from the Library of Congress, you seem to be hanging on to the idea that because Washington wasn't quoted word for word (I've acknowledged this, and corrected his actual quote and the meaning is the same), you seem to believe it discounts everything else. I can't speak to why you may conclude this, but I find it a bit disingenuous.

It doesn't discount what John Adams said, or what John Quincy Adams said, or what Patrick Henry said, or what John Jay said or what the Congress did, as sourced from the Library of Congress. I'm not sure how you equate a quote not exactly word for word from Washington as that everything else is invalid, but if you're going to make that claim, you should back it up and go ahead and refute all the others. That's what a good man would do, to make his argument solid, right?

Nah, it was a pretty good post. It's a nice change and I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge that. I like this format much better than some of our past formats

 

Thank you for all the information. Was good to see both sides of this. Didnt think this would happen just thought I would give a heads up to the poll. I really do appreciate all the input I learned more in this post about our founding father then I ever did in school. Great wealth of information some of you have stuffed in your heads.

 

The founding fathers of this country I believe had an alterior motive in placing those words on our currency. My humble opinion: Money whether paper or coin is only a symbol. Placing those words on something that is used in our country as a medium of exchange only reminds us who are true source is... God.

 

The founding fathers did not place those words on our currency, nor in our constitution.

 

Hi Paula,

Welcome to the board. It's good to see more people that share the same values around here.

Looks like you haven't read through the thread. I was surprised to find out that "In God We Trust" was not added to our currency until 1957. It had been there all my life so I thought that it had ALWAYS been there.

 

I wonder how much of the people that like the motto would have a problem with changing it for something like "God is Great"?