A Message to Non-Muslims from a Muslim

I did not put words in your mouth Thraxed. Here is your post:

You said that you are in agreement with the statement by the prophet. The statement by the prophet says that a woman's testimony is only worth half of what a man's is worth. It also says that women are mentally deficient. How am I putting words in your mouth?

 

There. I can't believe i actually had to post that.

 

Yeah, lets all follow the crowed, Atheism is the new shit, we can all coward from God and pretend he doesn't exist.

 

I cannot believe my eyes. This is flatly disgusting, and has no place in the world of today. Let's get real, shall we? WHO GETS RAPED? By your contorted logic, since it is men that rape, "a" man's witness should count for nothing, zero. Ridiculous.

You see, there are a couple of things that I think are truly fascinating, though I think we can all admit they are just odd little curiosities. The first is called "science," providing evidence; and "due process," providing a means of ensuring civil society. Both work to air a hearing on what did, or did not, take place in a purported crime.

Or, the hell with it. Centuries of progress towards a recognition that women are more than property is just a load of crap. Let us all return to commonsense, and do more than chill a victim's coming forward to seek redress from a crime - let's just kill such a notion altogether.

From what I have read, it is evident Muhammed and early Islam did indeed seek to improve the lot of woman. Isn't it time to accept we evolve? That we exist in modernity, and to shoot for a universal where all people deserve to be treated equally under the law is the right thing to seek?

 

Of course women get raped and it is terrible. BUT - I think we need to verify if this is in means of divorce or in all types of civil court.

 

This is the only case ( financial transactions ) where two women testimonies equal one man testimony, in all the rest cases, a woman testimony is equal to a man testimony, except in one other situation where a woman testimony has more weight than a man's testimony, which is in adultery

"[24:6-10] As for those who accuse their own spouses, without any other witnesses, then the testimony may be accepted if he swears by GOD four times that he is telling the truth.

The fifth oath shall be to incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying.

She shall be considered innocent if she swears by GOD four times that he is a liar.

The fifth oath shall incur GOD's wrath upon her if he was telling the truth.

This is GOD's grace and mercy towards you. GOD is Redeemer, Most Wise."


why in financial transactions?

in order not to repeat what already been said, allow me to refer you to this answer by a Muslim woman to the question:

"Hi,

Can you please explain Surah 2:282 regarding contracts of debts:

“…And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available)
then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her…. �

Does that mean women are less intelligent then men according to Islam? The following Hadith from Sahih Al Bukhari, 301:1, (Source: Alim, Silver Spring Maryland, ISL Software Corp, 1986-2000 seems to indicate this:

Once Allah's Apostle said to a group of women. 'Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).'...I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.' The women asked, 'O Allah´s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?' He said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' (Surah 2:282). They applied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in your intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?'

Also, is it true that according to Islamic law a woman who divorces her husband (This is considered a very shameful thing and will affect the whole extended family) must give up her children who will live with their father or his family?

Thanks,
Adrian"

the answer is here

as for deficient in "mind" and "religion" since long I hear people even Muslims misquoting this Hadith, and misunderstanding it, even some Muslims quote it without really understanding the occasion, and the meaning, I know since long that women when in period, or breast feeding, should not fast, or pray, thats the "deficient in religion" and the deficient in mind is related to 2 women equal one man in witnessing financial transactions,

Quran says:

"[33:35]The submitting men, the submitting women, the believing men, the believing women, the obedient men, the obedient women, the truthful men, the truthful women, the steadfast men, the steadfast women, the reverent men, the reverent women, the charitable men, the charitable women, the fasting men, the fasting women, the chaste men, the chaste women, and the men who commemorate GOD frequently, and the commemorating women; GOD has prepared for them forgiveness and a great recompense."

"[3:195]Their Lord responded to them: 'I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female - you are equal to one another."


more about the Hadith you quoted:

the answer is here

I am sure if you do a search for this Hadith, or part of it, you will find many sources online, Muslim and non-Muslim, you can of course read both and be the judge.

 

Very good post imad

 

Well considering that Leviticus is still used by Christians to prove that God is homophobic the remainder of the laws in Leviticus should still be in good standing as well.

 

Hi Rebecca, I think you should take a look at this :

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...Tt3M6jkjzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20061004103306AANjYPr

 

You guess, because you don't know. It's better not to speak on things you don't know. If you want to be taken seriously, give some examples.

 

That was not a personal attack, you have taken many other threads off topic and falsley claimed me of personal attacks. I know you are losing a debate but please have some dignity and dont just resort to saying I am personally attacking you. Give some examples if you are serious, now that you have not given examples, it is ovbious you are only here just to stir trouble up and spread hatred instead of actually debating issues. You have been reported.

 

Thraxed, give WT a break. He's a solid poster with an ear for all sides of a story.

 

I disagree, be may be a solid poster but he tries to jump into things and speak with authoity on subjects he knows nothing about, and then when he's wrong accuses the other person of personal attacks. lol

 

Pot, meet Kettle:

 

Browntwn with his daily dose of babble. Thanks!!

 

Hmm, babble? They are all your words.

 

I will have to say it again: I have no problem with anyone's faith, so long as that faith doesn't result in harm to any man or woman. Regarding the treatment of women in societies under sharia law, at least a certain interpretation of that law, I am indeed deeply troubled. Under the taliban, shooting a lone woman in a stadium before a crowd of cheering men, like a dog, like so much entertainment; stoning a girl for adultery (or hanging homosexual teens) in Iran; stoning a woman in Saudi Arabia for "witchcraft" because, from what I read, a worthless excuse for a man apparently couldn't achieve an erection before her; and many, too many, equally vile abominations before humanity.

I believe in compassion, and respect for all cultures, all faiths, all creeds, so long as we all accept some fairly basic norms; among them, love the mothers that birthed and nurtured you; your sisters, your daughters. I find nothing but baneful evil in your posts on this.

 

The babble is really out of control when the babbler calls his own words babble. lol