A devoted christian man beat his wife in the front of the kids

Imad, you are going around and around without really answering the question. As I remember your religion puts a high value on honesty, so please honestly answer this question with yes or no. In your ideal Islamic state should people who chose to be able:

1) To say there is no God and Mohammad was only a leader and no prophet
2) To eat pork and drink alcohol
3) to have sex out side of the marriage (between 2 consenting adults)

Remember, yes or no will be enough.

 

@Imad

I really think that you're a nice guy and that you try to give your best, but as I stated YOU TRY, which means it will fail.

Unbelievers play a big role in Islam, so to create fnances from criminal activities for the Jihad. Take it as a fact and do a research, it is true.
Most of big time narcotic smugglings/tradings, arm tradings, human trafficking are under the control of leading Muslims.

I really wish you could break free and discover unconditional love in order to be set free.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition might be helpful
many Muslim States have special provision allowing non-Muslims consumption of Alcohol

 

I am a Muslim from Pakistan(Islamic Republic of Pakistan)
I am not an expert like 'Imad' & 'new' on such issues but I will try to answer your questions.
1) To say there is no God and Mohammad was only a leader and no prophet

I think there won't be any problem as long as you just go by your own business and you can have what ever beliefs you want unless you really want to mess with other people and impose your thoughts on them.

2) To eat pork and drink alcohol

Eat what ever you want. Drink what ever you want nobody gives a shit. I know many people here who drink alcohol although it is a sin.

3) to have sex out side of the marriage (between 2 consenting adults)

No problem. I know many people here who are Muslims but they have sex outside of marriage, although it is a sin too.

 

Where is the question gworld? I read your post above 3 times, I see no question, it says: should people who chose to be able: 1,2,3,

something is missing, if you meant to ask, should people who want to do these things, be allowed to do them?

then:

if you read back my posts, you will find that the question been answered several times, depending on the several cases that might exist in that person, you are the one who is going around and around with different sets of questions each time, and since Islam truly puts high value on honesty, I must give you an accurate answer, so do not play this game, to give unclear questions, then blame me for not giving a clear answer, I tried to give you the accurate answer for each case,

yes or no, will depend on the person, and the case, do not try to force me to say yes or no for a "person" without specifying the person,

it is like going to an agnostic and ask him, do you believe in God? make it yes or no.

again, under Islamic state, if the person is non-Muslim, then he can choose to not be treated according to Islamic laws, if he was Christian he can drink alcohol, without interfere from Muslims, and he won't be punished for doing so, and he is allowed to do so,

If the person is Muslim, then he is not allowed to do so, and he will be punished for doing it according to Islamic laws.

Already by having Christians, Jews and other non-Muslims in Islamic state, means that the person can say that Mohammad pbuh was not a prophet, he is free to believe so, and declare it, without punishment, if he is not allowed to do so as you are trying to imply, then you will not find any non-Muslim in any Islamic state, same applies to those who do not believe in God, or believe in multiple gods.

Having sex outside marriage does not make a person an atheist, he is still a Muslim but a sinner, but if he believes that sex outside marriage should not be prohibited, and that it's something right to do, then he has another belief which he should declare it if he wants to be treated according to it,

a Muslim will be treated according to Muslim laws, he is not allowed to have sex outside marriage, he is not allowed to do so, and if he been caught doing so, he will be punished,

If he does not wish to be punished for doing so, it means he is asking to be judged according to else set of rules than the Islamic laws, in that case, he should declare his belief, without doing so, he is still considered a Muslim,

all Muslims who want to change their belief, to another belief, can do so freely without punishment, since there is no compulsion in religion, as long as it does include apostasy in it, once they change to their new belief, they will be treated according to it, if that belief does not punish for drinking alcohol, or eating pork, or having sex outside marriage, then they will not be disallowed from doing so, and they will not be punished for doing it if they been caught.

By being caught I mean that all the conditions are met to consider the action they did as a guilt or crime that is punishable according to Islamic laws.

 

@gworld
Muslims are fine with western culture and and respect their ways they don't want to force them to follow Islamic way and likewise in-return expect that their culture and Sharia is also treated with respect , however as you would have noticed that the media portrays Islam and Sharia as some medieval monster which needs to be tamed and contained at all costs , this behavior can be also seen from the dozens of anti-Islam threads in this forum
West boasts so much on freedom and democracy ? than why not accept Muslims as they want to live
why is there this sense of pride in West that it is their system which is best and everyone needs to follow that ?

 

Blasphemy law in Pakistan

It seems not only you are not expert about Islam, you are not an expert about Pakistan laws either.

 

I guess you are the expert then

 

You are still avoiding to answer. The person is some one who thinks all religions are just a bunch of old BS. Now answer this post with simple yes or no.

I don't call myself an expert but it seems I know more about your country laws than you do.

 

@Imad

facts and truth

you said

Having sex outside marriage does not make a person an atheist, he is still a Muslim but a sinner, but if he believes that sex outside marriage should not be prohibited, and that it's something right to do, then he has another belief which he should declare it if he wants to be treated according to it.

Fact

I Dubai a Girlfriend of holidaymakers(non Muslims) was sentenced because of sex before marriage. She got raped by staff from the hotel they stayed and she was sentenced while the culprit walked free.

 

Imad and Islam are not necessary responsible for what happens in Dubai, the same way that communists were not responsible for problems in East European countries, Judaism is not responsible for Israel and Americans are not responsible for Bush crimes.
It is therefore I am asking how he thinks it should be in his ideal Islamic society.

 

Right gworld, thank you, except, this is not "my ideal Islamic society" this is how Islamic society been for more than 1000 years, this is how it should be, and this is why I tend to show proofs from holy texts, and documented examples from history, I know what you mean, but it is necessary to make every word clear, as you can see there are a lot who try to do "fishing in mud", and also for the general benefit and that include Muslims who might not be aware of these things due to several reasons.

@ Arnie - sorry to say, but your argument is childish, as been shown several times here, and as gworld showed you here, I know you have so much prejudice, and possibly hate against Muslims, you can hate as you like, but that does not mean you should lose your ability to think a little, or make you try to find unreal reasons to justify your hate.

 

Since at present time, there is no country that you can point out as Islamic society then we have to rely on your religion historical documents and your interpretation of how it should be and it is therefor I am asking you about your ideal Islamic society in this post but I still haven't got any answer.

 

Either you are not getting it, or there is something not clear for me, because I feel that I answered your question several times, yet you are still telling me answer my question, answer my question...etc which makes me doubt, what does "answer" mean to you?

1- I object again your use of "your ideal Islamic state", because there is nothing that is called "my ideal Islamic state" but there is "Ideal Islamic state".

2- I am not avoiding any question, you should have known this by now, your question was, should a person be allowed to deny God in an Islamic state, then you asked, should a person be allowed to say Mohammad pbuh is not a prophet but a leader, and so many questions, which I believe I answered them all, but you are still telling me to answer your question, you are confusing me, what question did I leave without answering?

is it:

- Can a person deny God in an Islamic state?

Yes, he can, he is considered non-Muslim, and already there been so many non-Muslims in Islamic state.

- Can a person say Mohammad pbuh is not a prophet but a leader?

Again, yes he can, both, believe in it, and say it, as long as it does not hold insults, this is how it been before, and even now, this is how it is now in so many Islamic countries, so many conferences, meetings, dialogues, even TV programs, books, where people can talk, and speak about this, and many of them say in a nice way, that they believe Mohammad was not a prophet, but a leader.


- Can a person drink alcohol in the ideal Islamic state.

Yes, he can if he was non-Muslim, he can't if he was a Muslim (by he can't I actually mean he is not allowed, but really, if anybody wanted to drink alcohol, Muslim or not, who can stop him?)

The same applies for pork, and sex outside marriage.

did I miss anything, if so, I apologize, and stop trying to imply that I m avoiding your questions, I m still here, didn't go anywhere, if you believe your question is still not answered, then please post it again, and try to be specific as much as you can.

 

Are you saying in Islamic state, it should be separation between government and religion and people should not be punished for breaking religious laws such as drinking or having sex outside of marriage?
If the government imposes hard punishments for drinking or sex then you can not say who can stop him as you mentioned in your post and if the government does not impose such punishments based on the religion then what is the difference between your Islamic state and what we have in western countries?

 

Who the hell cares how much imad can twist his religion so it sounds accepting of others. The hard cold reality is that no you cannot go against Islam in an Islamic State - that is the whole point of an Islamic State. That is the whole reason Muslims fight to expand their control of lands and people and the rest of the free world resists it.

 

No, this is not what I am saying.

I am saying, in the contrary, there should not be a separation between religion and government in Islam, but you should try to look at it from an Islamic view, not a Western view, where religion failed as a moral guide, and also failed as a protector for people rights, but more became a tool to deny them their rights, and that's why there was a need to separate it from the government.

It is the religion of Islam that gave these rights to non-Muslim, I doubt you will ever see any other religion that has rights for people who do not follow that religion, when Islam gave minorities these rights, there was no separation between the religion of Islam and government.

Muslims had the right to live inside the Islamic state, and follow their rules and laws, so did non-Muslims, and there was also laws that determine the relation between both, and their rights in the one state, as equal citizens,

example, there were non-Muslims in the Islamic state, who did not believe in Islam, and did not accept it, and the Islamic state, been under attack in several occasions, like in crusades, it was considered:

- injustice to let non-Muslims fight since they do not believe in Islam and the state is being attacked because of Islam

- as citizens in the Islamic state who have rights, that are equal to Muslims, it was also injustice to let Muslims fight, and risk their lives, while non-Muslims enjoy the protection, on themselves and their properties without having to fight,


This is why, there was the concept or law of Dhimma, which most westerners look at it as something negative, in which non-Muslims enjoyed protection and safeguard, without having to fight, but in return of paying Jizya.

For your question allow me to answer it with another question: who can stop a murderer from committing murder if he wanted to commit murder? or a rapist from committing rape?

Not the law, not the punishment and the threat with it, but that does not mean there should be no laws that say murdering is a crime and if somebody committed it he will be punished, if these laws did not exist, how would things be?

So, there must be a law there, in Islam this law is not man-made, it is God's order, and Muslim who accepted Islam as the truth, willingly follow it, and this include the consequences if they violated it, whether these consequences are in this life, or next life,

for most non-Muslims, who do not believe in God, or who believe in a different religion, it is allowed to drink alcohol, because if they been forced to follow Islamic rules it would be considered "compulsion in religion" which should not be, this is why, non-Muslims in the Islamic state, had their own judges, and justice systems, and they were allowed to practice their beliefs, drink alcohol, and not being punished for this.

I m sure many will disagree with this, you have the right to disagree, some may say, drinking alcohol, is not like murder, or having sex is just something to have pleasure, it does not harm anybody as long as both are adults and agree with it, this is where we will disagree, and we can enter in an endless arguments over these two things and some others,

but it is worth to mention, that Muslims do not follow these laws because "Qur'an said so" or because "it's God's order" only, but believing in Islam, should come after being convinced in everything in it, and after understanding the reasons behind prohibiting these things.

 

So many there who wish if Muslims would just "twist" their religion, including you, but you can only wish,

go against Islam? you need to be specific here, is it to say Mohammad is not a prophet, but a leader, is not going against Islam, it is a belief, even if it is not what Islam or Muslims believes in, that's why there were and still so many non-Muslims live in Muslim countries.

if it means something like what the crusades did and still doing, then yeah, they will regret it, soon, as they did before.