It was the a time of ignorance. I guess the church stuck to old traditions to hard. Sometimes old traditions have a hard time going away . Also remember that most catholics had a long stem foundation of strong emphasis on tradition and passing down traditions from one generation to the next. Tradition is extremely important to many catholics. I believe this is part of the reason. Also remember that many of the church leaders within the church were corrupt also which i believe is one of the reasons why people like martin luther broke away. Most catholics now understand that science and god can not only coexist but they actually prove each other. The order of this universe says that alone. A few years back pope john paul didnt think that people in africa should be educated in condom usage. I disagreed with many catholics on this and was viewed as a bit crazy for it in some circles , but when the new pope said that we should educate people in africa on condom usage I explained why. Actually the new pope explained well enough when he said he would rathertake the lesser of the 2 evils then have people catching deseases and suffering from deadly std's like hiv etc. It was a matter of heart, soul and compassion for your fellow man. This is how i view my faith and how most moderate theists view theirs. We human beings no matter what beliefe we hold true to ourselves are a work in progress. No religious person or atheist is perfection. It was heart, soul and compassion that caused me to truely research operation ajax to debunk logicflux because i saw in him a person that believed that our leaders always have teh best of intentions for us and for others and are beyond reproach. Then I thought about the tens of thousands who died under the leadership of the shah, and the people that are dying today like that iranian girl nada who died to fight for freedom. The freedom that our government and the brits helped take it away, and here he was coldly defending it as an act of neccessity for a good cause. Heart , soul and compassion. Imagine if all people in this world acted with these 3 qualities first, instead of hate, greed, power and selfish needs. This is also why I see a lack of heart with most extremist atheists who make fun of and bully people of faith. They complain of the right wing religious extremist who think the world should believe as they do, but the atheists are failing to see that they have become even worse then the people that they have judged. This is because atheists have seen them act like this and have pronounced judgment on them and despite understanding what its liek to be preached to, they do it now to others. Not only do they preach their extreme brand of atheism but they putdown others. Isnt that sort of like a dictatorship waiting for the weapons to make it happen? There are just as many arguments for believing in god as there are against them. If yoru secure enough in what you have faith in why put someone down? It all starts with LOVE. If we cant love and respect each other we will always be separated as a human race, whether its a christian, muslim, hindi, buddhist or atheist. the person that redicules someone into anger is actually much worse than teh person who gets angry, because the person who did the rediculing has hidden intentions inside their heart. Hitler had hidden intentions and didnt let them fully be known until it was too late.
Pong. Seriously at this point you've just become a troll. You got pwnt in another thread, just deal with it. If you want to keep posting about it then keep it in that thread. And next time before you decide to debate learn the basic facts about the subject first. You didn't even know Eisenhower was behind the operation. He was your hero just a few days ago because of the "military industrial complex" speech -- a favorite of conspriacy nuts. As soon as I told you you quickly changed your opinion of him. Given one of the most basic facts of the entire subject, you quickly updated your opinion of the man to fit your old, ignorant view of the world. The US clearly acted to keep communism from sweeping into an increasingly unstable Iran to help preserve the rights of conspiracy nuts and foreign policy nihilists that bad mouth their (supposed) country without even knowing the facts. Although it's a tragedy for those to exercise dissent and willful ignorance at the same time, it's still your right. But I ask that you not spread it throughout every post in every thread. OK? Mods, will you please tell this pathetic 3rd grader to stop bringing me up in every post in every thread?
Sorry logicflux, now your lying to the good people of this thread. I posted links with citations to the 2001 leaked cia memos that just literally made you stop posting. I knew you would bring out those memos and I found the more recent memos that were leaked that just obliterated your post. This is why you decided not to take the time to read and post back. Anyone that wants to read that thread no matter what their beliefs are can see who spoke the facts and who spoke in half truths. The relatively newly leaded cia memo showed that there was no fear of teh soviets coming into the fray or mossadegh turning commi. Just admit you have been debunked. IF anyone doesnt believe it they can read the thread for themselves. As far as god having a sense of humor. I totally believes he does. What else but a sense of humor would possess one poster that got debunked by putting an avatar pic of someone I totally debunked before that. You really thought that last cut and past job would do it, but as i kept telling you my future catholic buddy, when you have the truth on ur side it makes for a much easier debate. You didnt believe me and now instead of rebutting me, you are no longer posting on that thread. Im not a betting man but thats clear to anyone what it means lol. Remember, everytime you copy and paste that I allready have my rebuttal post waiting. Its nice to be able to think 1 speed ahead of the person your debating, but then again I was very slow in that debate. What does that tell you. Birds of a feather logic. CIA MEMOS DONT LIE, or do they Stox I take it back, there is actually someone who posts less facts than u. It takes a real man to accept defeat and do the hamster dance
No. I posted links to the actual leaked documents before you. Not to someone's biased take on the subject who has cited the source, but the actual source itself! Stop making shit up! It's not very christian(well actually most of us know it is). And I never quit posting because you "won". I quit posting because debating you is like hitting yourself over the head with the retardstick. It gets exhausting. Now please stop it.
again I say to you that i posted citations to the actual leaked cia memos, and that is why you didnt want to look further into the posts. When someone is proven wrong they get angry and resort to name calling. YOu just got angry because I also used cia memos to prove you wrong. If you dont believe me go back to my posts and see if citations werent there in the links? If they werent your right, but if they were and they lead to cia memos among other things, your wrong.
You're the one going around posting about it in every thread! Troll. You got pwnt. I posted CIA and State Department documents and underlined the parts that disproved you. Instead of admitting you're wrong, you tried to claim some retarded victory by going and stealing someone's content and copying/pasting the whole 50,000 words into your post, as if to overwhelm me with so much horseshit that I'd have to give up. Well it half worked. I refuse to continue a debate around circles with someone who clearly has a 3rd grade mentally mixed with a self-destructive form of obsessive compulsive disorder. Pong. You can't make something true by just repeating it over and over. If that was the case, you probably wouldn't still be a virgin. Now leave me the fuck alone.
hmmmm... 1996 was the time of ignorance? I just started my B.Sc that year. Believe me, I didn't feel an ignorant. I find it amusing to see that you do not attribute the fact that the church is willing to accept well established scientific facts not before every 10th grader will tell any person that he is a moron if he thinks otherwise, as innocently driven by "tradition", and not as an pure EVIL, which is meant only to self-serve the institution of the cross. When I hear the word "tradition" I think of lighting candles, decorating a Christmas tree and singing a song. In no way do I think of intentionally disrupting the believers ability to think and twisting scientific facts in order to hide their meaning and implications from BILLIONS of people. This is really so annoying. I said it already 1000 times (twice to you) and if necessary I will say it another 1000 times on this forum, if necessary. Science and religion could not possibly prove each other. They are totally unrelated. Here, I made this for you to make you understand better: If science and religion were complementary or "proved each other" this gap would not occur. Instead, science will develop immediately and naturally hand in hand with religion or right beofre/after its appearance. If they were complementary you wouldn't have to apologize and blame "traditions" for the non-scientific agendas that the church is fighting for. Science was not invented to prove god. Scientists do not believe in god (93% in the US, more than 93% in Europe). If they were complementary and "proved each other", archbishops Priests and Popes would have been great discoverers and scientists of all times as they didn't have to work to feed their children!, but, bummer, it were the infidels, the unbelievers, who were persecuted for their efforts. Religion stood in the way inblocking the progress of science not only physically by improsonating thinkers, but mainly by educating the crowds NOT TO THINK. Why would a person have to think if all the answers are already well known to everybody? This kind of thinking, as a religious person, you do not posses: raising these kind of questions like the ones above, if you wish, is what atheists parallel to be the theists' prayers. This is how we practice our ideology: WE ASK QUESTIONS. You do not posses the atheists' urge to attack every "truth" from all possible aspects they can think of, and keep believing in it only if it survives all attacks. It is no wonder no theist even tried to tackle any of my dilemmas in the other thread. Attacking old truths is a taboo, bad behaviours (i.e. condoms in africa and yourself), and not a honorable, intellectual, and important virtue (relates to your "traditions" from previous paragraph) as non-theists see it. Science and god are unrelated things and do not co-exist in a way in which they can interact. God exists in the minds of the people, science exists in the physical world. As I told you before: using science in an attempt to prove/support (and also disprove) the existence god is nothing but Abusing science, and with all due respect pingpong buddy, really, saying that science and god coexist and prove each other, is simply a foolish thing to say. About "order", I don't think I understand what is it that you call "order", so I can not relate to that. I don't see any "order" in the world which can point to god. Can't see how this is related with my question. there are just as many arguements in quantity for both sides, but the overall quality overwhelmly points on only one of the option. Unfortunately the average person in 2009 still do not posses the analytical, scientific, neutral tools to reach this direct conclusion from what's at hand, but this is improving, and will continue to improve. Tell me more about that abundant "LOVE" that has filled you. especially to Hitchens. LOVE is another inappropriate word for describing interpersonal, intercommunal and intracommunal relationships and religion like to abuse. One of many in a very long list also starring: "I", "Me", "History", "Truth", "Proof", and annoyingly: "SCIENCE". You do not "LOVE" the people you go to church with, and certainly not the Buddhists, even if u're sure you do. And just in case you really do "LOVE" them, please send my sincere condolences to your girl friend/wife
hey pingpong buddy, I really put an effort for you in my previous post. So I thought that maybe, just maybe, since you did not comment anything about it, I managed to convince you that science and religion are NOT complementary, have nothing to do with one another, and CERTAINLY do not "prove each other". Does it make any sense what I wrote there, if not, what was I missing that could explain the gap? Please let me know if I managed to do my duty as a scientist in protecting science from being abused.