Should I go into Content Writing?

[Jyorraku]

I don't know if I can hack it as a content writer. Can some content writers share with me on what they think is required and what kind of things to expect when it comes to dealing with clients who request content? It's new to me and I'm not sure if this is where I should head.

I have some content listed here:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/9236/judyjiastyle.html

and on my http://www.jiastyle.com/ website as well, but that's more of a mixed bag since it's my personal site.

Should I wait until I am more polished? Or learn as I go along? Would appreciate any advice from fellow content writers. Thank you!

[Smyrl]

My first thoughts is anyone's chance of making decent living as a content writer is about as likely as making an NBA team.

I have two friends who have both published books. Can they earn a living as writers? - Not really! One runs owns and operates a security service and the other writes for a newspaper. Suffice it to say the newspaper writer earns less than a teacher.

Most artists, regardless of the genre, ply their skills because they really love what they do.

Good luck.

[mhdoc]

A couple of thoughts:

1. This forum is filled with people with heavy technical skills who will do almost anything to avoid writing something themselves; look at the popularity of article sites :) Most "content" I see at article sites is extremely lightweight. If you can do better than that yourself I think their is a huge opportunity to publish your own sites.
2. Unlike books, websites don't have to be polished to perfection before publication. You actually get points with Google (frequent updates) for polishing your work :)
3. By tracking who reads what and collecting comments, you get almost instant feedback about what works and what doesn't.

In your situation I would relabel my self from content writer to website publisher.

Good luck.

[Jyorraku]

Thank you both for those insights. I'm still trying to feel everything out so I can find something I like to do and make money doing it. LOL, doesn't everyone?

[ishtar]

I don’t know how much content you want to add in your website, it would the best if you wrote it yourself. For my website, when I started it, everywhere I went to seek information on getting more traffic, I read: build a quality content website. Maybe it wasn’t that difficult in my case, I searched the WWW, almost all the articles I found was in English, I made a summary of all the articles and translated it into Dutch, ‘cause Dutch is the language of my website, and this way my content is unique :D

[Japes]

Hi Judy,
I believe that I worked as closely as anyone can to being a full-time content writer. I'm at a company that's currently designing several new web sites on a number of various subjects, and they need someone with actual writing ability to fill in the space between the monitor sides. The content itself tends to be reasonably dreary depending upon the subject, and I get the feeling that everyone at the company who hasn't had to write before is always surprised at the amount of time that it takes to craft a fairly decent piece of work. I believe that most of them confuse the ability to dash off a quick note on a subject that they are already well versed in with the ability to write on subjects that need a considerable amount of research prior to publication.
I'm now finding as well that I'm being asked to do more and more work outside the actual field of writing, in an effort to make the web sites more visible. While it is not terrible work, it is certainly outside my original concept of the position. Financially speaking, the money is only about two thirds of what I was making while teaching English overseas.
All in all, I would have to say that if you're truly interested in becoming a serious writer, you might want to use a personal web page or blog to hone your skills, but I would recommend seeking more traditional journalism careers as a more fulfilling means of earning a living.

[Jyorraku]

LOL, ishtar. I can read Chinese so I have 'translated' some of the things I read as well.

Thank you, Japes. Honestly, I haven't decided what I want to do yet so I'm dipping a toe into anything that looks interesting. But you're right...it's harder than it looks and the payout seems to be rather unstable.

[Cobalt64]

Content writing is a tricky business. Whereas it is easy to make *some* money, such as through site content, bespoke articles, reviews, blogs and so forth, it is very difficult to make a serious living from it.

The majority of people you will see on forums such as these are more "hobbyist" writers than anything, and whilst a few are very highly qualified with strong portfolios, a large proportion aren't nearly as professional as they need to be in order to compete at the higher levels.

I'm not saying you need qualifications, I know plenty of people with a natural talent, they just seem to be able to say anything elegantly. However, writing content for a medium-large business will require you to have a strong portfolio behind you and even a multitude of formal qualifications. Although you may be an excellent writer, you have to start at the bottom, and that is where there is a lot of competition. Although a reasonable percentage isn't that great, it's still competition.

If you are just looking to make a bit extra on the side then content writing can be a rewarding option, though if you're looking to take your skills to the next level and write for well known sites and companies, then you are going to have to work very hard to get there.

If you want to see the kind of thing I do, shoot me a PM. I'm not that good by any stretch of the imagination, but I started off with a few lowly articles and snippets and now have a small handful of complete business sites behind me, as well as advertising emails, articles, tutorials and so forth.

Nothing special, but it's bought me a few beers and I enjoy it so I couldn't ask for much else really :)

[mhdoc]

I can read Chinese so I have 'translated' some of the things I read as well.

It seems to me that every English speaking business person on the planet thinks they need to buy products from China if they want to be competative. I would guess that most Chinese manufacturers and distributors dream of connecting with US/CA/GB buyers.

Have you considered registering a domain like HowToBuyFromChina.com and publishing articles/translations that would facilitate the process?

[Jyorraku]

It seems to me that every English speaking business person on the planet thinks they need to buy products from China if they want to be competative. I would guess that most Chinese manufacturers and distributors dream of connecting with US/CA/GB buyers.

Have you considered registering a domain like HowToBuyFromChina.com and publishing articles/translations that would facilitate the process?

That's a pretty good idea, mhdoc. I'm going to do some research on that. Might as well use my strengths. :)

[YMC]

Have you thought about being a technical writer?

I've recently hung out my content writer shingle and am working on my Adsense empire (every journey begins with a single step), but I was previously a technical writer. People were willing to pay some big bucks for technical writers with Japanese and Chinese language skills! I saw the postings and hourly rates for those jobs and thought, wow, if only...

With such a marketable skill, I think you can make a much better income focussing on translating materials for companies than writing web content. Also if your bag of tricks includes any engineering, computing, or gadget type expertise; as a tech writer I imagine you could almost name your price for translation services.

[Jyorraku]

How does one become a tech writer? Also, my Chinese is okay, I can read a newspaper, but I think it'd be hard for me if the text is indepth.

Do you know of any examples of tech writing that I can take a look at?

[YMC]

Tech writing is in some ways a strange field. To me tech writing is writing done about computer systems (user guides, program manuals, etc), engineering projects, and mechanical equipment. But many companies are hiring "tech writers" for any business writing (policy manuals, correspondence, and sometimes marketing materials).

I think basically, a technical writer is someone who writes well and can explain things in clear language to others. The better tech writers are able to write differently depending upon the audience. I believe a technical writer has to be something of a teacher, researcher, and writer. Without any one of the three, it's not a good match.

As to examples of tech writing, pick up any software manual (of course many of those are examples of poor technical writing), user's manual for a home appliance, or take a look around the net.

Even if your Chinese is not perfect, I know at least for a while the demand was so great that a company might hire and be willing to train you more. Take a look around Monster or Dice to see if anyone is still looking for that. Being in CA, I would think there would be more opportunities than here on the east coast. Also consider looking in the opposite direction if you can write Chinese. I imagine English skills could be very important to a Chinese company doing business here.

As for certifications, the field as such is on the newer side. I saw job announcements requiring degrees in 'technical writing' when there were only a handful of colleges offering one. I do believe a degree in English, communications, similar field or even a degree from a school with heavy general studies requirements would be acceptable to many employers and probably with good writing skills and the added language skills, the degree would become secondary.

I glanced at your website and it would seem you have fairly good computing skills. If I were you I would at least put out some feelers and spend a little time researching this. You might be able to get work translating materials and work from home.

I remember talking to one company some years ago who was absolutely desperate for translator/writers and kept begging for people with even only minimal language skills to help them. They had purchased some high dollar equipment and no one in the place could figure out how to use it. They begged for someone who understood the words even if they didn't understand the meaning. They had engineers to figure out the meaning, they just needed someone to tell them what it said. Seems like that would be a way cool job! Like doing language puzzles for a living. Too bad for me that I only know English; it would have been a very well paying and fun position.

[Jyorraku]

WOW. Thanks for all the info, YMC. I'll definitely be looking into this.

[YMC]

You are most welcome.

[Kyle K.]

Some of the greats can make it own their own though :P But you need skill and alot of luck.

[IceCold]

I have learned a lot from this thread. Thanks a lot for the info, YMC.

I'm currently a web content writer and I am still writing a lot of English content for different websites up to this day. The topics I've written are widely varied, and will be too many to mention. Right now , I'm writing articles about SEO tools and ebooks (more like reviews). How I wish I'm proficient with another langauge aside from English (like spanish, chinese, or japanese) so i can cater another sub-industry.

Keep the infos coming. More Power to DP members!:-)

[ltwo]

Indeed, this thread has help me. I'm doing research for a professor of mine. i'm trying to find the best way for her to get into the industry. whether for me to develop a site for her, or her write for others.

[clancey]

If I could add my two cents worth at this late stage. It is simply not true that you cannot make a living as a writer. I have done very well by creating a niche publication and converting that into a subscriber-based website in the mid-1990s. This has been my sole source of income for nearly 15 years.

Making it as a professional writer is not easy. It requires persistence and a willingness to take criticism and rejection. The analogy to professional sports is a good one.

I have always wanted to be a writer. I wrote constantly when I was a kid -- just as other kids played sports relentlessly. This continued through high school, where I managed to get involved with the school newspaper. In university, I managed to become the editor of the university paper. Realizing that selling fiction was near on impossible, I started freelance writing -- which is exactly what you are talking about. The money was very slow in coming. Unable to make a living at that, I was lucky enough to land a job as a reporter at an agricultural newspaper. I ended up becoming the editor and launched my own newsletter. That got me a job an export grain trader.

However, my love of writing never diminished and I ended up launching an agairuclture commodity market newsletter in 1988. That evolvbed into my current website.

This journey has consumed over 30 years of my life. I have managed to earn an above average income in all but the first 10 years of my writing career.

My advice is to not limit yourself to writing copy for the web. If you have any talent, you will probably make more money selling to print and other media. The web is just another outlet.

Also, your friends are not your best critics. You need to try to get something sold, paying close attention to the criticism. I would highly recommend trying to sell material to print media. They are the most criticial and that will help you develop your skills.

Read, read, read. Read actual literature. Read serious publications like the Economist or the New Yorker and pay attention to the style. Always ask how they are getting their point across.

Good writers communicate. Bad writers question the intelligence of the reader.

[waxingpoetic]

Hmm...very interesting and informative. I am also looking at writing content to make a portion of my living. When one says it is difficult to be successful, is this success being measured by the amount of money one can make?

I've seen A LOT of people looking for content in the short time I have been here...24 hours...is $5 an article not successful? It's $5 you didn't have yesterday. $5 articles today, $15 articles tomorrow. Am I being too optimistic because this is what I would LOVE to do and I don't have a problem getting paid peanuts to do it?

[marketjunction]

The topic is far too vague. In fact, the term writer is vague.

The fact is, if you want to join the minor leagues of writing content, you probably can. The quality expectations are very low. What are the minor leagues? Basically all the writing being bought and sold in places such as DP.

Please note, I am not using the term "minor leagues" in a derogatory sense or to imply that I myself am high and mighty. If you have ever produced print quality work, you will understand the night and day difference.

I do believe that people writing in the minor leagues can make a decent living provided that they can write a fair amount of product daily and maintain a healthy client list.

As far as making a living writing, it's more than possible. I do it every year. There are various types of writing, so lumping "writers" all in the same pot is not a fair assessment.

What's the difference? Well, in the minor leagues a writer might receive $10 for a 300 word article. In the regular writing world, that same article might command $300 or more. The difference is not only natural ability, but education and experience as well. It's extremely rare to find a writer earning a good rate who has not been educated to some degree.

This post is too long and perhaps going off topic. The main point is low level writing has very minimal standard expectations. I would give it a shot if you like and let your customers tell you if writing at that level is right or not.

Good luck!

[claudia Hudson]

I sorta fell into content writing though networking and word of mouth. Most webmasters hate writing content. Many think they can get decent articles for $5.00. A good content writer charges $100 or more and it's worth every cent.

[paradoxic]

You can make a living as a content writer, if you create a website with a popular topic and write news & reviews daily eventually it will take off.

I firmly beleive there is a way to make a living with any website concept out there as long as it is executed properly with marketing and publishing.

[Jyorraku]

Thanks, guys. I'm getting a lot of great info and things to mull over.

[jhmattern]

First of all, if you don't know if you can hack it, then you can't ... simple as that. It's not easy being a freelance writer of any kind, especially an online content writer when any amateur will offer to do any piece for a few dollars. It's an issue of supply and demand, and unless you have a strong niche, great background, experience and/or education to make you especially qualified to write on a subject, I wouldn't count on getting paid anything close to what you're worth.

Build your expertise, and perfect your craft. Only then will you find clients who make it worth while. You shouldn't have to work 40+ hours a week doing anything at all just for a part-time income, or lousy full-time income. Aside from sites I manage myself (like my company's webzine and sites on the AIA network) and a few niche sites I work for occasionally because I like the people involved, most of my clients pay me close to $500 / hour for the articles I write ... and that's sometimes only for the non-exclusive online rights to my work.

If you ever want to get to that level, you better have a specialty that's in demand, and you need to work very heavily on networking. It's my strong network that help spread the word of potential clients to me, and help spread the word about me to potential clients. Not much is more effective than those two points and being able to actually write for the Web.

Best of luck. :)

Jenn

I don't know if I can hack it as a content writer. Can some content writers share with me on what they think is required and what kind of things to expect when it comes to dealing with clients who request content? It's new to me and I'm not sure if this is where I should head.

I have some content listed here:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/9236/judyjiastyle.html

and on my http://www.jiastyle.com/ website as well, but that's more of a mixed bag since it's my personal site.

Should I wait until I am more polished? Or learn as I go along? Would appreciate any advice from fellow content writers. Thank you!

[Ajeet]

Well said Jenn

[jhmattern]

Well said Jenn

Thanks Ajeet. :)

[marcel]

very informative thread

[WebWriter]

My first thoughts is anyone's chance of making decent living as a content writer is about as likely as making an NBA team.


Writing is my main source of income because I don't write for people who think that paying $10 an article is "too expensive" . If that's works for you then fine but that's not my clientele.

I am sure it's easy to make a few bucks as a content writer..so many people want cheap content but then again there are so many people willing to provide it.

You have to decide on what you want. If you spend 2 hours writing an article and you only make $10 then you might as well go work at McDonalds. However, if you take the time to target high paying clients then that's a different story.

[jhmattern]

Well, that's why there is a difference between being a "content writer" (anyone can do it) and being a "professional writer" (where clients often come to you, not the other way around). As I just said to someone to PM'd me, the only way you can make that jump is to be educated and experienced in a niche, be an excellent writer, NETWORK, and stop taking on every little writing gig that comes along. If you're not discriminating in who you'll work for, and for how much money, it's extremely unlikely that you'll build enough of a reputation in your field to ever have the high paying clients find you or trust you enough to hire you. They pay for the fact that readers will trust what you say more than anything else.

Jenn

[old_expat]

Many think they can get decent articles for $5.00. A good content writer charges $100 or more and it's worth every cent.

I will respectfully (sort of) disagree with you. I have had work done by the top-rated writer on Rentacoder, (she has done hundreds of contracts) .. I can see all those knees jerking :). She also has a website offering contact writing outside the "coding" websites.

Her work is excellent .. good keyword usage and density .. no word count bloating .. and pithy articles. Her articles are well researched, structured and presented. She normally gets $0.05/word.

Two other excellent writers have provided me with good content for about 60% of that price.

So I will say that $5 articles, "No way." Worth every cent of $100 .. most articles are not, IMO, and the web market tends to support my statement.

A landing page that earns $xxxx/year may well be worth $100 or significantly more, but most content earns far less and is therefore worth much less.

[jhmattern]

Well, that's because you get what you pay for. If you want a niche piece written by someone who's respected in a field, and whose name means something, you're not going to get it done for $5 ... or even for as little as $100 for that matter. Getting a basic content writer who focuses on keyword pieces isn't the same as hiring a professional writer who lends extra credibility to any work they provide. With the exception of very few clients that I've worked with on small niche sites (either because they were early repeat clients, or because I have a particular interest in their site or topic), it costs at least $.35 / word just to get non-exclusive Web-only rights on most pieces I write. Copyrights aren't even discussed unless a client is so incredibly well-known that I really want them in my portfolio, or without at least a 4-digit fee. Considering most pieces I write require little to no research, because they're based on my direct experience, I usually bring in $400-500 / hr.

If some of these "content writers" really do have the niche focus, education, experience working in the field, and truly quality pieces, then they're simply undervaluing themselves. There's no excuse for a qualified professional to accept rates like that ... ever. If they're just starting out in writing, or a hobbyist, that's one thing. Otherwise, they should be spending more time looking for good clients and marketing themselves instead of taking on more small projects.

As someone who's covered consulting and freelance issues (and who's worked with some of the top consultants in the country), let me give you a very quick lesson that applies to all freelancers or independent consultants in any field:

Let's assume you spend 40 hours per week on your freelance writing business, take $5 article assignments, and can turn out 3 articles per hour. That's $15 per hour, and might not sound so bad to someone just starting out. You might automatically say $15 / hour multiplied by 40 hours / week = $600 / week or $31,200 / year. Probably doesn't sound too bad.

However, your calculations would be dead wrong. Independent professionals of any kind can only bill an average of 22-23 hours per week (let's assume 23 here), because the rest of the 40 hours is spent on marketing and administrative tasks (like accounting, writing up contracts, etc. - if you're doing things professionally and legally at least). So now you're down to $345 / week or $17,940 / year. Not so great for putting in a 40 hour week every single week, now is it? Then you need to remove any time you take off (assume at least 2 weeks if you take a vacation and a bit of sick time). That means you lose $690. Now you're at $17,250 / year. Now remove your basic income tax. And then remove any business expenses (office supplies at bare minimum for a writer). Then health and dental insurance for yourself if you're not covered by your spouse's. Then any education costs or other costs for your children if you're supporting any. Then factor in self-employment tax (normally you pay half of those taxes such as Medicare, and your employer pays the other half. When self-employed, you pay both halves, because you're your own employer.). You'd be working a 40 hour week, and probably not pulling in enough to get by in the slightest.

The problem is that most freelancers don't take the time to figure out what they're really making, and adjust their rates to account for it. I think people asking for $5 and below articles should be ashamed of themselves for expecting what basically amounts to slave labor, especially when they also demand copyright (a writer's most valuable posession). Does the market allow for it right now? Yes ... because too many writers don't know any better and don't truly respect their work. They simply want to say they've been published. But I can assure you that the market (even the online-only market) DOES support professional writers and professional rates. There are certainly clients who will pay you what your time and expertise are actually worth. It just takes a lot of networking and a little time to find those kinds of clients. But that's time you certainly won't regret spending ... I can assure you.

Jenn

[YMC]

What I always find amazing when the topic of cost for online content comes up is the response from many of the web programmers and designers.

They expect to be paid anywhere from $40 to $100 per hour for their services. They then expect the people who supply the content (which, I think all can agree drives the traffic and overall success of a website) to work for an amount that the programmer/developer wouldn't turn their computer on for.

[monkeyads]

I make a living writing for online ventures. Some of it is relatively high-paying copywriting. Some of it is "straight content." Rates vary based on the product, volume, turnaround time, and a host of other factors. As anyone reading this thread can see, there are a lot of different opinions about how the industry works.

What works for one may not work for another.

That being said, here's what I would tell anyone who was seriously considering a career behind the keyboard...

Understand your customers and the nature of their businesses. Is 5 cents per word slave labor? Is $100 per page reasonable? That all depends on what the customer wants and how they can leverage the end result. Remember, the folks hiring writers aren't descendants of the Medici family just looking to support the craft. They are in business seeking a return on their investment.

Understand your strengths. If you can buzz at 120 wpm after conducting sufficient and accurate research in the blink of an eye, you can make a good living writing straight content at a relatively low per-word rate. If your background, education and skills allow you to write great copy, you can prosper as a copywriter.

Understand your weaknesses. Return business and word of mouth are the lifeblood of a successful career. When you overstretch and produce subpar work, it can be a killer. If you can't do it right, don't do it. Resist the temptation to fill your calendar with things you won't be able to handle.

Be a pro. Constantly work to improve your writing. Make a commitment to staying on top of industry trends and changes. Take customer service seriously. Meet deadlines. Exceed expectations. Learn to market. Learn to prospect.

If you just want to score occasional beer money, you can pick up small writing jobs from people who need some raw content. That's not going to be tough. If you want to turn writing into a six-figure+ deal, be prepared to work hard and smart ever day.

Carson

[daboss]

my 2 cents... it's good enough to make some pocket money...

however, doing it for a decent living, you've got to be really really good...

[jhmattern]

Not only really really good at writing ... but really really good at business.

Jenn

[ValuableVisitors]

I fail to see the value in virtually all of the "content" that is being produced nowadays. Link popularity is now at least as important as keyword density, etc. Whereas the TF.IDF (which highly values specific keyword repetition within documents) algorithm used to be the search engine standard, PageRank + TF.IDF + [each engine's secret sauce] is now how pages are ranked. People spending $100+ for a page of content, without buying incoming links from related sites are not getting their money's worth IMHO.

[jhmattern]

Yes they absolutely are. Those sites are actually interested in the content because it's the focus of their site. They care about providing quality trusted content to their readers, not about building rankings in search engines. They're honest online publications, rather than cookie cutter content sites that buy anything and everything just hoping to make a few bucks from Adsense and such. There's also a reason why those kinds of sites are able to make enormously more money (and be able to pay for expert content, at the rates they're actually worth) - people trust them and come back time and time again for that content, rather than having to be manipulated into it through search engines. The problem is that you're thinking as a webmaster, not as a successful businessperson. If you're content with a basic site, keep paying low rates and keep hiring writers for generic content that won't build that level of trust with readers. If you're interested in making enormously more, and treating your sites as a serious business, then there are serious costs involved to do things right.

Jenn

[marcel]

Jenn,

There is a time for everything. A time to go cheap and a time to go expensive.

Some of us need help know what time it is. Convince me that my site would profit from expensive content, and I'll go the expensive route. Show me how my BusinessLetters.com can become a Clickz.com and i'll pay the big bucks.

[jhmattern]

I never said that your particular site could afford to hire professional writers based on it's stats. My point is that there are larger sites out there who pay professionals what they're worth, and that's where the professional writers go. They have a reputation built around the writing on their site, and they know the value of hiring someone readers can trust. Obviously most smaller sites don't have that reputation to uphold. My point to the original poster is that if they intend to become a professional Web writer, and not just a general amateur content writer like just about everyone and their brother these days, they need to build their own reputation and respect their work enough to accept only what they're worth. For smaller sites like yours there are always hobbyists, new writers, and people who will always undervalue their work. Writing is an art. And it's often built upon another professional background that takes years to achieve with degrees and experience; often far more than Web designers put in (not that some don't go that route). And as someone else said, it's disgusting that writers are valued so lowly by so many of these designers and webmasters who don't have anywhere near their professional background, yet would never consider working for such a low rate. It's certainly possible to make a 6-figure income writing, even only on the Web ... but not if they don't build their reputation first and value their work at what it's worth.

In your case personally, obviously expensive content isn't enough. You can't grow to the level of something like Clickz.com without setting up the site with quality content first (and I don't mean just optimized for search engines, but rather content that's detailed, well-written by professionals, and has a tone that people can related to and want to come back for). But then you need to be willing to launch a strong marketing campaign behind it. It's the combination of BOTH that separates the huge income-generating content-oriented sites from those that just about anyone these days sets up to throw Adsense on. It's about having the right business model, and professional reputation to back up the work is an important part of that.

Of course comparing your site to Clickz.com is like comparing apples to oranges though. There's nothing wrong with your site. But it has the appearance of being more of a sales flyer than a content-based site (of course I only glanced at it briefly). To grow into something like that, would take more content, marketing, and probably a different design / layout. Just my $.02.

Jenn

[vigorheart]

((((((All)))))

I must say you all have made this thread very informative. Thanks for the valuable info.......

Jacob

[letsjoy]

helpful therads n informative too

[jeeplaw]

I have several writers in my group that make their sole living off online writing, and they're as professional as you can get. They also supplement their income with offline writing as well. The trick to making any kind of living online, writing, or not is a constant influx of jobs. How well you market your services goes towards your success or failure of your financial expectations.

I started AA with the intent to produce website articles only, because I found a niche that needed to be filled. With over 80+ writers today, including several VERY accomplished offline writers and copyeditors, we're handling everything from a single 400 word article on a gulf stream jet, to large 400 article orders, white papers, ebooks, press releases, manuals, etc encompassing various subjects that cover the gamut.

There's still room in online copy writing to do well, you just need to build a solid reputation of creating great content for an affordable price. Or, produce "perceived" high end content that goes for a premium.

[wheel]

If I can interject here :). There are professional writers out there that do OK. I beleive many of them have either unique skills or have very narrow niche's that they're expert in - in other words they're success is in their field.

In terms of just doing contracts for writing content on every topic under the sun, I think the possibility of earning a living doing that is miniscule. The simple fact is that most people are looking for dirt cheap - and dirt cheap is readily available. The bulk of the online writing market are these churned out $5 articles. That's what you're competing against, and it's what people want.

Sure there are exceptions, but the vast majority, it's a commodity market. Same goes for doing HTML work, or banner design. Geesh, I paid $80 for like 5 banners here a week ago. Yes, I've paid $200 for one before and the work was a bit better, not not $80 vs. $1000. So the $80/five banners got the money and not the $200/one banner folks.

Personally I believe a lot of this is due to globalization. The market is evening out because we can go to the cheapest/hungriest provider. Years ago I paid $150US per hour for perl programmers that were pretty good. Now I can get pretty good php programmers for $20 an hour - and a heck of a lot less than that if I want to offshore it.

If I was a good content writer today, I'd be looking at doing something where I write for my own purposes or websites. Start doing affiliate work or something. Then you can write all day and make money directly from your work. In fact, I am a reasonably good writer in my niche (life insurance) and I write a fair bit - far better than the $5 articles. But I use my writing for my own purposes, I don't write for others.

[Lyndoman]

Excellent thread.

I have just completed my first paid writing job and it feels good, infact I feel a little guilty as it seems too easy. The work was 500 words for $6 and whilst I realise it is way too low I figure I need to get get my fingers dirty.

My thing is that I already earn a good income from my blogs but need extra cash quick. From what I can pick up from the posts here is that it is best to pick a sector and specialise, preferably a sector in keeping with present knowledge.

Writing for others I feel will help focus and motivate my own writing whilst making some cash and broadening my experience.

I wonder how other people came to chose their sectors if they have one.

[jhmattern]

You can make more than $6 by just writing something quickly on a topic you feel like writing on, and submitting it to www.associatedcontent.com. I only use them when I have some nonexclusive stuff laying around that I have no more important use for, but plenty of people use them for a quick buck here and there. I know they pay more for exclusive content though. If that's what you want to do, it might be an option. At least you can still access all of your work together too, and almost use it like a portfolio.

I chose my sectors because they're related to my expertise. I write about marketing and public relations, because I hold my degree in Public Relations (specialized form of marketing). I write on small business, because I'm a small business owner. I write on consulting and freelance issues, because through my firm, I do PR consulting and on the side I'm a freelance writer and editor. I write on independent music, because my firm began exclusively as a music publicity firm, and still has a heavy focus on it. Just use your background, education, and experience to decide what area(s) you're qualified to write on.

Jenn

[Lyndoman]

Thanks Jenn,

I have now completed work for $18 for 500 words which is getting to what I think I should be paid for which is $25 for 500 words.

I now have an order book for ten further articles.

This is down to the postive and realistic advice from people in this thread.

Thanks

BTW associatedcontent.com as far as I understand associatedcontent.com only deal with US writers, I am now on the lookout for a service that will deal with the UK as well.

[jhmattern]

Sorry. I didn't even look at your location before I suggested it. :(

Congrats on getting closer to your goal for payments. :)

Jenn

[Shoshana]

Anyone knows a site with cheap professional content writers? :)

[sizzler_chetan]

Search in the Services forums and you will find a few good content and article writers.
We deal with submission of articles, But no writing :)

[aeiouy]

One thing people need to keep in mind is the field of publishing has undergone a drastic change in the last 10 years and it is only going to change more going ahead.

In the past the big print entities had a strangle-hold on what got into print so what they said went. Now pretty much anyone can publish something and some people with very unorthodoxed writing are making good incomes writing on the internet. The key for that segment is writing for yourself though. You will never make it far selling it off. You can do that to fill in gaps and help support yourself in the short-term, but if you want to make money long-term publishing on the internet, the real money will come from capitalizing on your own content and writing, as opposed to selling it to others.

I see some good advice here, and some that is maybe not as applicable depending on what people want to do. Someone mentioned reading The Economist or the New Yorker to see how people write. I guess that is okay if you choose to write that way. Others may actually prefer that people actually enjoy reading what they write. :)

The reality is the landscape has changed significantly and the door is wide-open. The rules and regulations are basically out the window. If you can gain an audience for your writing and make it work for you then you are succesful, regardless of it meeting some formatic guidelines or grammar checker.

[marketjunction]

I hold my degree in Public Relations

Darn. If you only had a Journalism degree, you would be perfect. :cool:

Sorry, I could not resist.

Writing about what you know is a good start. Rather than try to write about everything under the sun and get known as the master of nothing, try to hone in on a market or perhaps two. This will help you should you venture into magazine writing.

[jhmattern]

Darn. If you only had a Journalism degree, you would be perfect. :cool:

Sorry, I could not resist.

Writing about what you know is a good start. Rather than try to write about everything under the sun and get known as the master of nothing, try to hone in on a market or perhaps two. This will help you should you venture into magazine writing.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but I'm assuming that was targeted at me (the bit about knowing a market). In my case, as PR applies to magazine writing, a primary focus of public relations is studying all types of media outlets and a variety of journalists, whether it be writing for them, broadcasting, or essentially making them care about what you want them to care about. I work heavily with journalists, as well as working within a few larger online media outlets as one myself. People in my field have an intimate knowledge of the media, so I'm not sure what your point is. Also, in my own case, I do only write about my own specialties (marketing / PR due to my business and my education, consulting / freelance because I do PR "consulting" as well as working as a freelance writer and editor on the side, small business because I'm a small business owner and also have educational background in business, and independent music because I started my PR firm initially exclusively in music publicity, and it's still a strong focus). So sorry again if I'm getting defensive for no reason, but since I couldn't quite tell if that last part was directed at me or not, I figured I might as well. :)

Other than that, I completely agree with you, and I tell writers the same thing here all the time... if they want to make serious money writing, they need to focus on at least one niche that they have education, experience, or both in... enough that they can write about something the client couldn't cover themselves, and that they can write better about than just a random content writer assembling various other sources' information.

Jenn

[marketjunction]

It was a joke (journalists v. PR people). I know PR fairly well. I went the Journalism route though.

The second part of my post was simply agreeing with what's been said and adding a little info on magazine writing.

[jhmattern]

It was a joke (journalists v. PR people). I know PR fairly well. I went the Journalism route though.

The second part of my post was simply agreeing with what's been said and adding a little info on magazine writing.

OK. See, that's why I apologized beforehand just in case. :)

So that means you're the type we PR folks are supposed to be out there "manipulating" huh? ;) j/k I have to say, I've never really dealt with the journalists v. PR people issue, from either side of the fence. I guess because I receive so many press releases from people wanting something from me, I've been able to understand their perspective, so I try to be nice and do what I can for them. And on the other side, because I know it annoys me to be bombarded with them, when I'm doing manual distributions I try to be as nice and respectful of their deadlines and editorial calendars as possible. So far it's been a decent philosophy. :) I tend to worry more about the Lawyers v. PR people issue... doing what saves the company money in a lawsuit (ie covering things up) versus doing what saves the company's image. Fortunately, it hasn't come up yet. :)

Jenn

[Keith Taylor]

In terms of just doing contracts for writing content on every topic under the sun, I think the possibility of earning a living doing that is miniscule. The simple fact is that most people are looking for dirt cheap - and dirt cheap is readily available. The bulk of the online writing market are these churned out $5 articles. That's what you're competing against, and it's what people want.

My first week of freelancing I earned a touch under $500 writing dirt cheap content. The trick was to cotton on to the fact that the client didn't care about the quality of the content - only in making it good enough to fool the search engines into thinking that it was valuable content. A halfway competent writer can bang out an acceptable 400 word article in a little under ten minutes. At $5 dollars a pop, let's say 4 articles an hour for 8 hours a day that's $800 a week. Most people can comfortably live on that income.

The day I got tired of whoring myself for pennies, dumb luck got me a copywriting contract that paid $800 for 5 days of interesting work - more than twice what I earned when I had a 'real' job - and I now earn a decent living in copywriting, and have just set up a content service that's geared towards high quality content at premium rates. That should hopefully bring in a comfortable income.

The point it - yes, it's possible to make a living writing high volumes of poor-quality content, but would you want to? After a few weeks writing 9 hours a day about credit scoring and HDTVs your fingers hurt like a b*tch and you're unable to uncross your eyes.

Instead, hone your craft to the point at which you can market yourself as an artisan of words, not a keyword-generating monkey at a typewriter.

[marketjunction]

Nice post. It brings up the nice points of getting burned out and quality differences.

Once you start getting paid 50 cents to $2 per word for your writing, 1-2 cents simply won't do. :D

The field of potential clients willing to accept anything semi-decent for content food is enormous—and growing daily. If you are willing to write for 1-2 cents per word and can at least not make a fool of yourself, the money is out there.

Just make sure you don't go around telling people you write well, because you will end up with clients throwing the content back in your face when it's not in-depth enough. Writing well goes far beyond grammar—it dives into the depths of complete coverage.

[Keith Taylor]

Once you start getting paid 50 cents to $2 per word for your writing, 1-2 cents simply won't do

I'm not quite there yet. I'm still at the stage of cutting my rates because I feel guilty about charging so much. I'm sure that, at least subconsciously, it's because I don't feel I deserve to make a lot of money for doing a job I love so much. I still wake up every morning (well, every afternoon - I work nights) and pinch myself. I can't believe I'm allowed to do this for a living.

Still, even though I cut my rates I'm not exactly cutting coupons. As long as the bills get paid and I can buy nice things I'm happy to write copy for 20 cents a word.

[marketjunction]

Keith,

You might want to try splitting up your service in two. One site (service) offers rates at where you are at. The second caters to a more demanding crowd at a higher price.

As your second level grows, you can pick and choose what you want to do from the first level. In a perfect world, your second level will end up becoming the main level you write at.

[Keith Taylor]

You could be, right, market. I'll make some changes when I can get around to it. In the meantime, the ding just went on my pizza. By the end of the month I'm going to look like Brando in his later years. Frozen pizza, lots of caffeine and 3 hours sleep a night.

Still, it's my own fault for taking on too much work :)

[marketjunction]

LOL

I was just about to order pizza. I bought a treadmill this month and it's right next to my desk. I love being able to jump on it any time day or night.

Watch that caffeine! I gave up coffee about 10 months back. I am now saving roughly $300-$400 a month since I don't hit Starbucks anymore. ;)

Try green tea instead. It tastes great, has lower caffeine and is good for you.

[Keith Taylor]

I am now saving roughly $300-$400 a month

My God, how much did you drink?

I don't drink coffee or tea (though I love to make it - very relaxing, I find). I'm a Diet Coke guy. I've been through a 2 litre bottle in the last 6 hours. Not healthy.

I've got a treadmill directly behind me. The Walker Pro-Action or something. I only use it to torment my cat :)

[old_expat]

I only use it to torment my cat

Beware! Cats always find a means of revenge.;)

[Keith Taylor]

That's true. Whenever she jumps onto my bed as I'm dozing off she always somehow manages to land on the old, well, y'know, the most painful part of the body on which a man can take a direct hit.

[old_expat]

Early in the life of one of my websites, I needed some "on the ground" reviews for bars and restaurants in a city several hundred kilometers from where I live. Fortune smiled on me in the form of a retired professional journalist from the UK. We agreed on an hourly rate because I also wanted snapshots of each establishment.

After the first review, I knew I had struck gold. His writing had a casual flair because he was comfortable with the words he was using, and he understood what a reader wants to know.

So I immediately offered him a 50% bump.

Each review would focus on the personality, ambiance, decor, personnel, service, food and prices; as one might expect.

But the manner in which he introduced each establishment made you want to hear the rest. And yes, I mean "hear". Reading his words was so comfortable that it almost seemed like listening.

Then normally, he rewarded the reader for his patience with a humorous, somewhat dry closing comment.

He eventually got tired of doing the reviews. And I am continually looking for a replacement. I think it will be a frustrating search.

And, BTW, the princely sum for his casual voice, perfect grammar, correctly spelled submissions plus a photo or two? About US$ 8 per.

That's a Writer!:)

[marketjunction]

My God, how much did you drink?

I don't drink coffee or tea (though I love to make it - very relaxing, I find). I'm a Diet Coke guy. I've been through a 2 litre bottle in the last 6 hours. Not healthy.

I've got a treadmill directly behind me. The Walker Pro-Action or something. I only use it to torment my cat :)

I would go 2-3 times daily. Each trip would cost me about $5. $300-$450 was the normal tab. I stopped drinking soda about 2 years ago. That's bad stuff.

My treadmill is a cross country skier too. It's great having it here. I jump on it for an hour to clear my mind and get pumped up. I have been doing this for about 13 years now and put on some pounds.

My worst point is when I was having pastries from New York Fed-exed to me. I am not sure what was worse. The fact that I was so in love with the food that I had to have it or that I was spending hundreds of dollars (sometimes more) per month.

Anyway, back to caffeine. I get small doses as I drink premium green tea daily. Let me tell you, that's an expensive habit. My Oolong runs $25 per ounce. I am not sure if I should drink it or snort it. :D

[Keith Taylor]

You know you have a problem when you start accepting tea bags as payment :)

I developed a pretty bad bagel habit after spending too much time in London. Cream cheese and chive. Brutal. Fortunately I've been forced to go cold turkey as they don't tolerate poncy 'foreign' food up here in the North of England. Bread comes in a sliced loaf, and that's that. None of this poncy unleavened stuff.

Right, I'm absolutely stuck for work. I've had to stop my current project until I get some input from the client, and I have no articles to write. Know of any content sites where a bored writer can pick up some quick work?

[marketjunction]

You can always write articles for the future or write and sell.

I have never been to England, but I am thinking of going over there in about a year maybe. I would like to take a month off and hit Europe. Problem is, I am a work-o-holic. It's rough for me to take time completely off from any type of business activity. I will probably end up shooting Europe and building blogs with my photography and writing for profit. :D

[Keith Taylor]

I'm the same. I'm supposed to be visiting New York later in the year to give my older brother moral support as he runs the marathon, and then a few months later I may be driving cross-country from New York to LA with a few friends. I can't imagine taking the time off, though.

That's the problem with having a job you love, I suppose. Holidays no longer feel like time off. They feel like a punishment, in a way, as if we've been made to go sit in a continent-sized corner and think about what we've done :)

[old_expat]

My Oolong runs $25 per ounce.

Good Grief! No wonder they're growing that stuff all over Northern Thailand these days. Maybe I should build a site to start selling Oolong online at something like half price.

I do miss my Yuban (coffee). There is a pretty nice Arabica being grown by the hill tribes, but I'm too lazy to grind my own. So I have finally found an acceptable Thai instant.:)

[marketjunction]

LOL.

You can get it cheaper. I am a tea aficionado to some degree. I buy my loose tea only after checking it out first hand (from tea supplier). I despise tea bags, but will use them if in a pinch. The quality is disgustingly lower.

Whole Foods is selling loose Jasmine Pearls for $14 for like 3 ounces. That's a great price and the tea is pretty good. It's a great everyday tea.

Great. Now I have to go make tea. See what you made me do.

[old_expat]

Jasmine Pearls

Is that a version of Oolong?

[marketjunction]

No. It's another kind of green tea. It's flowery. ;)

[marketjunction]

A good copywriter will earn 6 figures.

[Keith Taylor]

A good copywriter will earn 6 figures.

Most freelance copywriters, though, will struggle to scratch a decent living - especially if they want to stick to their morals and only write for businesses they approve of. Or 'of which they approve'. Depends how anal you are :)

A copywriter who has a fair grasp of what sells can, if he has as much dumb luck as I've been blessed with, make a comfortable living doing interesting - and occasionally fun - work. Even so, I wouldn't advise anybody get into the business with the aim of making their first million within the year. Simple ain't gonna happen unless you're actually the second coming and you can get a nice contract with the Vatican to do an SEO optimised re-write of the Bible, along with a press release and a raft of commercials.

[marketjunction]

Well, I must be stellar then. BTW, I don't write copy for anything I oppose (like pharma).

I know many writers (friends and industry) that make what I do and more. The one common link is marketing ability. Sometimes I see writers making 10x what they should, given their talent. Being able to market is a key determining factor of success for a writer.

Take any copywriter that's starving. It's mostly because they can't market well and not (at least not always) due to their lack of ability. Even the worst copywriters (within reason) can do well, because of the volume of business out there.

[Keith Taylor]

Well, I must be stellar then.

How long have you been in the business? I only broke into copywriting fairly recently, so I'm still going about building up a basic portfolio.

Sometimes I see writers making 10x what they should, given their talent. Being able to market is a key determining factor of success for a writer.

I've always been able to sell everything apart from myself. It gets frustrating when you know you can do a particular job better than most but there's another guy who has a gift for selling his unremarkable skills to the client. Bah. It's my British reserve at work again :)

[marketjunction]

Here's the plan. You move to the USA and throw your British accent around. People in many circles will think you are smarter and you should do much better.

It's just a theory, but it could work. :D

I started creating content for the Internet in 1994. However, it was not until somewhat recently (in years) that I began to offer my services fully to others. My ability to market is really the difference. When I made the move to offering my services to others, things progressed quickly.

Also, if you are very good at marketing and all around business, you will won't work as hard to get the business.

I've been in the business world as an entrepreneur for about 15 years. Actually, I got in the stock market and planned my first business in Jr. High, but that's another story. Anyway, I have seen people with the great products and services fall flat while others, less deserving, were bathing in cash. The difference came down to two factors: (1) Marketing ability and (2) Business oriented skills. By #2, I mean the ability to plan, organize and work the plan.

If your marketing skills are not up to speed, no amount of time as a writer will matter. The point of all this is this: Spend time learning to sell yourself. I don't mean printing up thank you letters to former clients either. If you don't sell yourself well, you're just another writer in the pit. There's thousands of them out there.

[Keith Taylor]

Here's the plan. You move to the USA and throw your British accent around. People in many circles will think you are smarter and you should do much better.

I would like nothing more. A good friend of mine recently did a 6-month placement in Maryland for an engineering company. While he was there he called himself Harry and did a Hugh Grant impression 24/7. If his stories are to be believed he did rather well with the ladies. The same principle could be applied to business :)

The point of all this is this: Spend time learning to sell yourself.

That's definitely the weak point of my game. I put myself through university with telesales (Boo! Hiss!) and honed my sales technique. All I have to do is apply it to myself and I'm golden. Easier said than done, though :)

[aeiouy]

Americans give way too much credit for an English accent that is for sure. :)

[DeniseJ]

I love accents, of course that's just me :p

[Keith Taylor]

I've always been a sucker for American and Irish accents.

[DeniseJ]

Mmm, I'm pretty much an accent girl, period. There's just something about them.

Furthermore, I've always wondered what American accents sound like to people who aren't from here.

[Keith Taylor]

That's one of those things that alway interested me - you can't hear your own accent, and nobody can really describe it to you either.

If it's any help, the Californian accent is nice. To me it sounds very laid back and relaxed - but intelligent - and it puts you at ease.

Just thank God you're not from Birmingham in the UK (think Ozzy Osbourne). Every time you open your mouth people would want to kill you just to stop those awful sounds.

[jeeplaw]

Just thank God you're not from Birmingham in the UK (think Ozzy Osbourne). Every time you open your mouth people would want to kill you just to stop those awful sounds.

Or from Massachussets :D Or worse..Rhode Island..lived there for 3 years. I could handle "Suppa time" for supper time, but when people started sticking 'R's at the end of words that didn't require and R..it was like nails on a chalkboard. Take the name Hannah for example. Most people in RI would stick a soft 'R' to the end of that name. LoL, nails on a chalk board for me. :D

[marketjunction]

I will be right back. I need to PAK the CAH (Park the Car for the rest of us).

Oh, I have a great IDEAR (Idea to the rest of us). I heard that a lot when I lived back east.

[Keith Taylor]

Euch. Makes your skin crawl.

[everett sizemor]

I used to do SEO for a content distribution network (which shall remain unamed) and I can tell you it doesn't pay very well. If you market yourself as an expert in a certain nich, however, you can sell content directly to the buyer, which pays better. Things like personal injury law, plastic surgery, and other high-paying keywords are what you want to get into.

[KeywordsandCopy]

When I got into content writing I was a bit unsure as well. But after a couple of years at it I love it! I say at least give it a shot...

[ozim400]

Well, that's why there is a difference between being a "content writer" (anyone can do it) and being a "professional writer" (where clients often come to you, not the other way around). As I just said to someone to PM'd me, the only way you can make that jump is to be educated and experienced in a niche, be an excellent writer, NETWORK, and stop taking on every little writing gig that comes along. If you're not discriminating in who you'll work for, and for how much money, it's extremely unlikely that you'll build enough of a reputation in your field to ever have the high paying clients find you or trust you enough to hire you. They pay for the fact that readers will trust what you say more than anything else.

Jenn

This is one of the most inormative thread I had seen on this forum. Jenny, your forthfightness and punchy insights, particularly intrigue me.

I want you ask you and others. thus:

1) How do one identify a niche he loves

2) How can he gets a training?

3) Where can such training be done - offline or online?

4) Can you recommend anything?

5) Do you (or your company) provide trainings for would-be writers?

Ii ask because I would like to become a BETTER writer that will command large fees. :)

NOTE: You can even criticise this post of mine. :)

Expecting your kind reply.

Patrick Ubuane

[jhmattern]

1. First of all, identifying a niche should have absolutely nothing to do with keywords and seo issues. If you do that, you're not likely going to get anywhere in the long run, because the hot keywords of today could be worthless tomorrow. Find a niche by writing about something you both know about and enjoy. It could be a hobby. It could be an area of business. It could be reviews or some sort. etc.

2. The best way to get training is to go to college and get a degree related to the niche, and study a bit of writing while you're there. A degree is quite often the difference between making several hundred dollars for a short articles and making $10 for the same sized piece. Also, if you're planning to write in english, which I'm assuming isn't your first language, spend a lot of time conversing with people in forums like these, and invest in stylebooks or even a grammar textbook. It will pay off enormously if you can provide flawless pieces every time.

3. Most training would be done offline, but with more and more schools online now (find a truly legitimate one) you can get a full degree on the Web, or just take a few courses for a certificate or something. I'm sure there are also plenty of free and paid writing courses online where you can get help with more general writing issues. You can work on building some knowledge on your own in the meantime about your niche, by again turning to textbooks (unless it's just a hobby topic). Avoid learning about an industry from most websites, ebooks, or general market books, and focus on finding actual educational resources instead.

4. www.textbooks.com to find good resources for background. Right here on DP to keep on conversing to get a better feel for natural english speaking. www.writersmarket.com to see what markets are available and what they pay, which could be a factor in the niche you choose to specialize in.

5. Not yet, but I'll actually be launching a site doing things like that in about a month or so. :P Just visit freelance writing sites, especially ones with a community that will critique your writing for free.

Jenn

[ozim400]

1. First of all, identifying a niche should have absolutely nothing to do with keywords and seo issues. If you do that, you're not likely going to get anywhere in the long run, because the hot keywords of today could be worthless tomorrow. Find a niche by writing about something you both know about and enjoy. It could be a hobby. It could be an area of business. It could be reviews or some sort. etc.

2. The best way to get training is to go to college and get a degree related to the niche, and study a bit of writing while you're there. A degree is quite often the difference between making several hundred dollars for a short articles and making $10 for the same sized piece. Also, if you're planning to write in english, which I'm assuming isn't your first language, spend a lot of time conversing with people in forums like these, and invest in stylebooks or even a grammar textbook. It will pay off enormously if you can provide flawless pieces every time.

3. Most training would be done offline, but with more and more schools online now (find a truly legitimate one) you can get a full degree on the Web, or just take a few courses for a certificate or something. I'm sure there are also plenty of free and paid writing courses online where you can get help with more general writing issues. You can work on building some knowledge on your own in the meantime about your niche, by again turning to textbooks (unless it's just a hobby topic). Avoid learning about an industry from most websites, ebooks, or general market books, and focus on finding actual educational resources instead.

4. www.textbooks.com to find good resources for background. Right here on DP to keep on conversing to get a better feel for natural english speaking. www.writersmarket.com to see what markets are available and what they pay, which could be a factor in the niche you choose to specialize in.

5. Not yet, but I'll actually be launching a site doing things like that in about a month or so. :P Just visit freelance writing sites, especially ones with a community that will critique your writing for free.

Jenn


Dear Jenny,

Great post again. you are a GEM! I haven't seen anyone who takes time (more than adequate) in replying detail with ideas and top notch tips, for others to follow.

Yes, I am a Nigerian, but I write fairly good English, at least good enough to write for those looking contents for their websites. You know, the $5 - $15 or more ranges. :D

Jenny, please keep me posted, when you launch your website that will devoted to critique. :)

Cheers.

Patrick

[jhmattern]

lol VERY few people get away with calling me Jenny. ;) j/k

Yes, your english is fairly good. I didn't even realize your location was posted in your profile... there was just a simple grammatical thing that made me assume that. :) I'll definitely keep you posted on the site, and when the writers' community area is launched to handle peer critiques. :)

Jenn

[marketjunction]

Just remember, grammar is but one part of the equation. Style and content are very important. You can write in perfect grammar, but if you lack the other two, your article is garbage.

The perfect article has a great style, goes as deep as it needs to, has no fluff, is written in a concise fashion and is free from grammar issues.

The first book one should read is the Elements of Style. It's a quick read and will get you set up for concise writing. If college is a possibility, go to one that offers a print journalism degree. This is the absolute best degree for those wanting to write articles. I would also recommend taking some communication oriented classes as electives (interpersonal communication, advertising, copywriting, into to PR, and so forth).

There's a major difference between those who went this route and those who lack the education. Amazon is full of no less than 50 must-read books for anyone serious about making the most of their writing. If you polled everyone making 50 cents to $3 per word in various non-fiction writing areas, one common thread would be the building of a solid foundation. Without this, simply writing often means very little.

[old_expat]

The perfect article has a great style, goes as deep as it needs to, has no fluff, is written in a concise fashion and is free from grammar issues.

And another thing that happens far too often. Someone tries to write at a level beyond their comfort level with syntax and vocabulary .. as I just did!:)

It's like being tied and gagged, and imprisoned in a small room on the first day of violin practice.;)

[ozim400]

lol VERY few people get away with calling me Jenny. ;) j/k

Yes, your english is fairly good. I didn't even realize your location was posted in your profile... there was just a simple grammatical thing that made me assume that. :) I'll definitely keep you posted on the site, and when the writers' community area is launched to handle peer critiques. :)

Jenn

Okay Jenny,

I will be interested.

However, let me make myself much, more clearer to you and others.

I am really NOT interested in pursuing writing as a career. No! But, I love writing and constantly write.

My interest concerning any course on writing, could be a short course or training, just to further improve myself. My ultimate goal is to set up websites - possible starting with affiliates marketing and sell my own services.

I brought the issue of writing courses, because I am presently writing articles for online organizations. Why? Because I want to raise enough money for my intended internet project. And, so far, my articles has been accepted for their qualities.

NOTE: My kind of article may not up top the level that commands several hundred of dollars.

Do you see the whole picture now.

I will keep waiting for your update, concerning the website. :D

Thanks.
Patrick Ubuane

[jhmattern]

Maybe this will help you out in the meantime:

http://netwriting.sitesell.com/

It's a course (.pdf download from that page) about writing website copy with the purpose of keeping visitors and increasing sales. I downloaded it and glanced it over... not quite so much on the grammatical end of things, but more about formatting and such. I haven't read it, so I won't vouch for the quality, but it might be worth a look. :)

Jenn

[ozim400]

Maybe this will help you out in the meantime:

http://netwriting.sitesell.com/

It's a course (.pdf download from that page) about writing website copy with the purpose of keeping visitors and increasing sales. I downloaded it and glanced it over... not quite so much on the grammatical end of things, but more about formatting and such. I haven't read it, so I won't vouch for the quality, but it might be worth a look. :)

Jenn


Oh - I see. That course is from the great online marketer, KEN EVOY. Yes, of course you are right about it not very strong grammatically.

It only focus on the main issue of writing to pre-sell prospects to become customers, without much ado.

At any rate, thanks for your promptness and depth of your reply. I believe you’re a shining star here! :) :)

Cheers.
Patrick Ubuane

[nextebizguy]

I'm a numbers geek so I made an Excel sheet to check it out.

Assumptions
Earn 60k gross a year US dollars
3 weeks a year vacation (leaves 49 work weeks)
Work 5 days a week

At 3 cents a word you will need to write (16.33) 500 word articles a day for 49 weeks.

At 5 cents a word: (9.8) 500 word articles a day.

At Jenn's rate of 35 cents a word: (1.4) 500 word articles a day.

[jhmattern]

Actually, a lot of those people writing at $.03 / word or less are giving up their exclusive rights. For me to sell the same rights just online is $.50/word. So in most cases I'd have to write even less. :P But it's not my primary form of income.

Always nice to see things broken down by the numbers. :) And something else to add in is that those articles aren't able to be factored into a 40 hour work week. Most freelancers and consultants can only actually bill 22-23 hrs weekly (the rest is spend on admin, marketing, and other necessary work). So that means they'd have to write even faster. :(

Jenn

[marketjunction]

Don't forget research time.

That's one reason why every successful copywriter will tell you to niche out. By becoming an expert and focusing in a couple of niches, you will be more valuable and more knowledgeable, which means less time researching and working.

[jhmattern]

Don't forget research time.

That's one reason why every successful copywriter will tell you to niche out. By becoming an expert and focusing in a couple of niches, you will be more valuable and more knowledgeable, which means less time researching and working.

That's exactly right, and it's the difference between making a few hundred dollars per hour writing versus just a few dollars period. For example, I can knock out a marketing, PR, or small business arting in 30-60 minutes, because I'm so well-versed in the background and experienced in the subject matter that I rarely need to research the topics unless it's something highly specific like a case study. But if I tried to write about investing, even at my higher per word rates, I wouldnt' make that much per hour, b/c I'd have to sink a lot of time into researching just to make sure my facts were accurate (not even to mention trying to come up with something more unique).

But in addition to marketjunction's point, another plus of focusing on a niche is that you'll maintain your passion for writing much longer if you constantly get to write about something that you love. I've only done very limited writing outside of my niche, and quite frankly I don't enjoy it even half as much. If I had to do that to make a living, I'd probably quit writing altogether. I'm not saying there's no use for general content writers; just that you're probably more likely to enjoy your work over the long term if you focus on something that really interests you as far as subject matter goes.

Jenn

[marketjunction]

Here's another. If you focus on a niche or two, you become more involved in that world and it could open up other doors.

If you write for magazines, one of the worst things you can be is the "general" guy or girl. Those that can show lots of good clippings in the niche will get most of the jobs and all of the good ones (unless you are well known).

BTW, going into a niche doesn't mean simply writing about it. You must go deeper and immerse yourself into that world. If you look at some of those most successful writers, they all focus in a niche (sometimes 2 or 3 niches).

[glennhefley]

Well... I have to put in here that I completely disagree. Nitche writing may be easy, but it isn't more profitable. I agree that you shouldn't forget about the time it takes to research, but also don't forget about the time between jobs. Nitch writers find themselves in heavier competition with less work. A great deal of the time you are beat out by a non-nitcher, even if you clearly have more experience, because the guy can sell himself.

I'm a writer. I don't care what I write about. I've honed my researching skills so that it takes me very little time to find out about a subject (any subject) and create custom work per-spec in three to five days for three to five articles. I charge by the article, not the word. And a lot of folks much more educated than I am in certain subjects don't work because I can sell myself and deliver on time.

That's the key, timely delivery. If you say you will have it done in three days, and you really do have it done in three days, that client is yours for life.

I also disagree that you can't make a steady living at this, in an earlier post a member said she had two friends that were writers that couldn't make it as content writers. I have to suggest then that they aren't trying very hard.

There is risk involved. I quit my sys-admin job, set up my home office and started writing. There are no health benefits, and despite the fact that I've never been a week without work in the last five years, I still stress over where the next job might be coming from. I work long days and most weekends. But i love to write and I love to work for myself.

It isn't hard to find jobs. It use to be. Back in the day (20 years ago) I started writing for magazines. That was much different. You sent out "idea" letters to editors and hoped you got a response. Or you wrote articles and hoped you could sell them. With the Internet all of that is changed. Right now I'm so booked I'm working at 3 AM hoping to catch up.

The other rub is that when you write like this for a living, you have to find the work, sell the work, do the work and them collect for the work (its a lot of work). If all I had to do was write I would be in heaven, but that isn't the case.

As far as your skills are concerned, you should be fairly confident that your work is at a professional level before you start trying to get jobs. Find copy that you like, and then take it apart and really find out why you like it. Then, learn how to duplicate those aspects in your own articles.

Go over to http://www.creative-reporter.com/ or https://adm.associatedcontent.com/signup.cfm and sign up. Start submitting work and see if the editors publish it. It won't take you long to find out if you are up to par or not (neither of those sites pay worth the damn, but they act like they do).

Pay attention to everything you write, and start putting out 3000 words a day, no matter what, even if you have to pull out a book or magazine and copy the articles inside. Learn to sit and write 3000 words of edited text every day. It is hard to stay focused that long when you first start doing it.

I wrote a few articles on this subject for my own website, because I kept getting asked "how do I get started as a writer". You can find those here :
http://www.glennhefley.com/?cat=11

Good luck and I hope this helps.

[factchecker]

quick question on this topic.
If you compare writing to being a musician - then
1. You have your "true" professional musicians who play in symphony orchestras (nobody knows who they are, but, they get paid loads of money).
2. You have your professional "singers" who are as technical in their craft as the orchestra musicians, but, don't get paid well.
to make a long story short......
3. You have Britney Spears....... not a musician, not technical in her craft, but, is a character........ I would not want her performing a cantata with an orchestra..... Yet, she demands more than the most professional "technical" orchestra musician..........

At least in music... it's not about the "technical" content.... it's about the performer/performance

Is this the same in writing?

[YMC]

I believe to a lesser extent that is true with any industry. It's just that the range between the high and low may not be as big.

[marketjunction]

Well... I have to put in here that I completely disagree. Nitche writing may be easy, but it isn't more profitable. I agree that you shouldn't forget about the time it takes to research, but also don't forget about the time between jobs. Nitch writers find themselves in heavier competition with less work. A great deal of the time you are beat out by a non-nitcher, even if you clearly have more experience, because the guy can sell himself.


This post brings up a point about experience. Many times, we tend to base what IS and ISN'T on our own experience. For example, Glenn believes that niche writing isn't more popular, because his experience says so. I (and others) said it's better to niche, because my experience (and many other magazine writers) says it is. I guess the master point in all this is you may or may not find something to be good/better. We all have different experiences.

We also need to differentiate what type of writing and on what level here. The original poster will most likely be performing web content writing for many website owners around here. This lower rung on the content ladder is fairly easy to work in and most clients won't give a hoot if you are a master in a niche or not, because the content required is fairly shallow.

[marketjunction]

quick question on this topic.
If you compare writing to being a musician - then
1. You have your "true" professional musicians who play in symphony orchestras (nobody knows who they are, but, they get paid loads of money).
2. You have your professional "singers" who are as technical in their craft as the orchestra musicians, but, don't get paid well.
to make a long story short......
3. You have Britney Spears....... not a musician, not technical in her craft, but, is a character........ I would not want her performing a cantata with an orchestra..... Yet, she demands more than the most professional "technical" orchestra musician..........

At least in music... it's not about the "technical" content.... it's about the performer/performance

Is this the same in writing?

It's a little different. The writing world is filled with journalists, copywriters, article writers, fiction writers, non-fiction writers, creative non-fiction and so forth. Copywriters (in the true technical sense) overall are on the top rung of the ladder as pay goes. However, they are not the best writers out there. So yes, it's something like music. Spears isn't the best "singer" or even close, but she's working in a sector of music that doesn't rely on one being the best.

Take fiction writing. Many spend great deals of time on their piece to craft something remarkable. However, most fiction writers make little to no money directly from their work. It's a very small percent that "make it." As to "true" writers, well that's another ball of wax. Writers constantly argue and size themselves up (in the professional world) as to who's a "true" writer and who's a real "professional." I don't see this happening much on the lower rungs of the ladder (DP for instance). Something happens to most people when you get into the higher leagues (pay and/or publishing wise).

Writing, like music, has many tastes. For instance, a writer might write an article on Woodworking and think it's great. Someone else (a woodworking enthusiast for example) might think it's rubbish, because it's a surface/fluff piece and didn't go deep enough. In music, I might hear Spears sing and call her a hack, because there's no real talent there. I might hear Andrea Bocelli sing and call him a true professional singer. Another guy might come along and say the opposite. Why? We have different tastes and he is more easily satisfied. To a upper level music connoisseur Spears is low level trash.

Copywriter: One who writers marketing or publicity copy.
Journalist: One who writes the news / reports to a mass audience.
Article Wrtier: One who writes general articles (like how-to), that are not covered in the other two groups.

There's more, but that should give you an idea.

[glennhefley]

This lower rung on the content ladder is fairly easy to work in and most clients won't give a hoot if you are a master in a niche or not, because the content required is fairly shallow.

marketjunction,

What you know about the industry doesn't make a great deal of sense. Don Winslow and Shane Salerno, both good friends of mine, write fiction and they don't starve. The people that starve are the ones that a) can't write and b) don't send it in to be published.

I've heard these lines of arguments most of my life, and they all come from some one who has gotten the urge to be a writer and can't get themselves to do it. They read a great deal about being a writer, they talk about it a lot, they put up blogs and say they are a writer, posting shallow pathetic posts on it day after day, but they don't ... write.

You want to be a writer? then stop asking permission. Stop asking to be one, or if you can be one, and start writing. Every day someone is doing something that someone else said was impossible.

[glennhefley]

quick question on this topic.
If you compare writing to being a musician - then
1. You have your "true" professional musicians who play in symphony orchestras (nobody knows who they are, but, they get paid loads of money).
2. You have your professional "singers" who are as technical in their craft as the orchestra musicians, but, don't get paid well.
to make a long story short......
3. You have Britney Spears....... not a musician, not technical in her craft, but, is a character........ I would not want her performing a cantata with an orchestra..... Yet, she demands more than the most professional "technical" orchestra musician..........

At least in music... it's not about the "technical" content.... it's about the performer/performance

Is this the same in writing?

I would say... yeah it is.

Britney Spears makes tons of money (or use to, I don't follow her career very closely) because she entertains. Her music is not ... technically proficient (nice way of saying it sucks) .. and her lyrics are certainly ... um... not technically proficient, but she entertains. That's her real job, ... to entertain.

There are a lot of writers out there who are technically proficient. Take Umberto Eco, author of The Name of the Rose and How to travel with a salmon. Both of these books show a writer who is far better, technically, than just about everyone else currently on the market. The man is amazing, and speaks several languages which he can write just as well in all of them. I am stunned every time I read his work ... but, I'm not entertained.

I enjoy Umberto's work as a writer ... a writer not as technically proficient. But i don't enjoy his work as a reader.

Now, take Robert Jordon. This guy writes tons of novels (three or four every year and ghost writes more... or use to). As a writer I weep at the fact that this guy makes a living. As a reader ... eh... okay.. yes I'm entertained. I read the damn novel because it is fun and even though I can figure out the whole plot after page one, I still read it and read the next novel because they are fun.

I don't mean to pick on Robert Jordan like that, but comparatively, the two authors fit your question.

Both authors make money, I'll bet Robert makes more, and I know he puts out more work.

What you are really comparing here is not writing, but the industry. Umberto Eco is a great writer, but he can't put out something every year that entertains. Robert can, and the public wants something entertaining all of the time. The ones that can supply that, are the ones that become "in demand"

[marketjunction]

marketjunction,

What you know about the industry doesn't make a great deal of sense. Don Winslow and Shane Salerno, both good friends of mine, write fiction and they don't starve. The people that starve are the ones that a) can't write and b) don't send it in to be published.

I would do a little more research on that one before commenting. You know two people who make money writing fiction and now thousands of fiction writers are money-makers? You think that just those who can't write don't make money in the fiction market? Research time my friend.

No offense, but come on. If you did nothing but read some of the countless books and magazines on writing, you would know this. Your two friends are obviously great at marketing, coming up with ideas and have some connections. However, a strong majority of fiction writers, who happened to write well, are on the short end of the financial stick.

[marketjunction]

By the by, in the freelance world, marketing is often the sole factor in success. You could be the best writer in the world, but if your marketing aspect of your business is lacking, it's an uphill battle.

[glennhefley]

I like what clancey had to say up in his post. That last bit was very good.

I just wrote out a long post on the difference between web writing and content writing for print, which if you are starting out, or even have been doing this for a while, may want to consider. I'll just link to it, as it is rather long. (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?p=1224571#post1224571)

[internetauthor]

Jenn -

From one professional writer to another - Amen, Sister!

Rebecca

[wwwbug]

it is a good job to be an article writer,nowadays ,there are more and more webmasters need unique content for their sites,as an article writer you can earn more than webmasters

[internetauthor]

it is a good job to be an article writer,nowadays ,there are more and more webmasters need unique content for their sites,as an article writer you can earn more than webmasters

SHHH! Don't tell my husband! He's a webmaster, and I was trying to keep that a secret! LOL

[RNB80190610]

I didn't know a content writer can make more than a webmaster

[old_expat]

I didn't know a content writer can make more than a webmaster
Depends on the writer and the webmaster.;)

[jhmattern]

Definitely does. When I write content for my larger clients, I earn several hundred dollars an hour on average. When I run my websites, I'm lucky to make a few dollars a day... but I'm really just getting started in monetizing them. Of course... ideally I'd love to be writing for my own sites, earning that much completely regularly, and doing it as BOTH! :)

Jenn

[marketjunction]

Depends on the writer and the webmaster.;)

You can say that again.

[jg123]

I disagree with Smyrl, I think there are huge oportunities out there for content writers / editors. I am guessing the problem with many writers is that they lack the business sense to make-it with online writing. Perhaps some even feel it is a step-down, especially if they have been published. I remember when I first met someone over at sitepoint and she was just starting out and working for peanuts.....now about a year later you need to wait a month to book her and her prices are much higher.

good luck

[dxpgroup]

ok. it might be a good place to ask this : if i have some articles where can i post them (web design, development, seo related articles).

Thanks.

[musicsmysoul]

It is a very difficult job. However, if you are experienced and talented, it will be a great side job. Although I do not do it full time, my article writing company has grown into a huge service due to these amazing DP members :)

I'd say if you have samples to show people, start off small. I started off with one client a few months ago and have made my way up to dozens upon dozens. If you do a good job, word of mouth can really do a lot for you. Charge reasonably, but also respect your talent, and your time. If you are working your butt off for only $3 an article, there is a problem.

I only make about $1k a month as we speak, but it is worth it. You get to do what you love and meet amazing people while you do it. :)

[KeywordsandCopy]

Is content writing here to stay? This is something that concerns me a bit. Should I be worried?

[jhmattern]

People are always going to need content. But my guess would be that the search engines will get "smarter" over time, giving preference to the truly quality content, meaning writers are going to have to up their skills and background knowledge rather than being able to simply write based on given keywords and random online research. On the positive side, it means they'll be able to charge more if they really put out good work.

Jenn

[internetauthor]

...On the positive side, it means they'll be able to charge more if they really put out good work.

Jenn

Won't that be nice? LOL

This has been a fascinating thread to follow. There are so many opinions and professionals in various writing facets on this board. I started writing for webmasters only recently, but have to agree with those who feel quality wins out in the end.

I'm certainly not the best in the field, and don't have aspirations of industry dominance, but I can throw some words together, put commas (and semicolons *gasp*) in the right place, and I have done pretty well for myself. At the moment, I am averaging roughly $25 per hour working part-time. Ironically, this is more than I make as a Language Arts teacher, but I digress...

I think content will always be around, but that over time, content that is easy and enjoyable to read will take precedence over garbled keyword content. As far as I'm concerned, if you love to write, can do it passably well and have the time to commit to the marketing aspect of things, there is no reason to NOT get started in the field.

Rebecca

[jhmattern]

I would assume so... but then again, I already specialize in my field and charge more for that expertise, so it won't affect me too much, other than that I'll have to adjust rates a bit to adapt to more competition (although I highly doubt there will be a rush on public relations degrees just because Google cares more about quality articles). ;)

Oh, I've definitely got aspirations of industry dominance. ;) j/k

I agree though. There's no reason why you shouldn't write if you enjoy it. And if you're not good at it, well then start your own site and practice, practice, practice. And if you still can't write, why not get into a supplemental line of work, like typing manuscripts or reports, or doing research? It's a broad industry.

Jenn

[Tyler Banfield]

People are always going to need content. But my guess would be that the search engines will get "smarter" over time, giving preference to the truly quality content, meaning writers are going to have to up their skills and background knowledge rather than being able to simply write based on given keywords and random online research. On the positive side, it means they'll be able to charge more if they really put out good work.

Jenn

They already do. That's why one-way incoming links are important ;)

[anbee]

Hmm...very interesting and informative. I am also looking at writing content to make a portion of my living. When one says it is difficult to be successful, is this success being measured by the amount of money one can make?

I've seen A LOT of people looking for content in the short time I have been here...24 hours...is $5 an article not successful? It's $5 you didn't have yesterday. $5 articles today, $15 articles tomorrow. Am I being too optimistic because this is what I would LOVE to do and I don't have a problem getting paid peanuts to do it?

Wow, with that attitude you'll do great. Go and sign up at elance.com and guru.com -- there's a mile of content work available.

Good luck with it. :)