How do your Msn Rankings compare with Beta

[! !]

Different Algorithms are being used - that are COMPLETELY Distinct

Which one do you prefer?

Have you begun Optimizing for what may be 1/4 of all Search Engine Users

How does your current ones compare to the Beta

:confused:

[lorien1973]

Beta is much better; closer in line with google, but duplicate domains (2 domains going to 1 site) seems to get you double listings.

[Such Great Heights]

whats the beta URL again?

[chachi]

http://beta.search.msn.com/default.aspx

[lowrider14044]

I like the beta much better then the current search. Nowhere to be found in the current search but show up in the beta. Not near as high as Google but better.

[Las Vegas Homes]

Where I have 2 websites showing up in the regular search, I have 4 showing up in the beta.

[dejaone]

we're not gonna see more traffic from msn before Bill replaces the old search with the beta

[Spacen]

I very much prefer the beta. I'm about 123rd in the current search but I'm #1 in beta. It appears the beta weights keyword relevance much higher than google or yahoo.

[5starAffiliates]

WhooHoo, much better than even Google for my 5 star site, have not checked the rest yet, but that's the one that matters.

[exam]

Just like you all, I also like the beta search better, cause my site does better :D

[melfan]

Although one of my site drop from Top 10, I like it too.

[ResaleBroker]

I prefer and am doing better in the Beta version.

I'm happy to see that they are showing the cache too.

[rfuess]

How do you submit a site to msn or the msn beta? All I can find now are the paid inclusion for the msn business . . . .

[ResaleBroker]

You don't need to submit. Their spiders will find you. :)

[Help Desk]

MSN will be very easy to manipulate.

[melfan]

MSN will be very easy to manipulate.

How? I notice that they update rankings faster than any SE

[SEbasic]

Does that make them hard to spam? I don't think so...

We are talking about the algo to rank the pages, not the speed at which pages are ranked.

[melfan]

Does that make them hard to spam? I don't think so..

So are you saying that they are easy to spam? It think its too early to tell.

[SEbasic]

I agree, but I have to say that the fact that they regularly update doesn't make them hard to spam.

I've seen some really interesting results from this SE.

It looks (For some searches anyway), that there is some kind of TSPR thing going on.

So the anchor text may not be taken into the equation, but the page the link is displayed on is...

[melfan]

@SEBasicThanks for that info.. I will try to look on that

[Lever]

I looked at MSN Beta for just a handful of search terms when it was mentioned some months back. At the time I was doing well in all but one of my KWTs, coming in at about #121, same as on Google, so I pretty much ignored it.

I just had another look

KWT 1 = #141 on Google, #70 on MSN but #1 on MSN Beta
KWT 3 = #1 on Google, #27 on MSN but #1 on MSN Beta :D

They're not hugely competitive KWTs but I'm pleased that they're doing well on the new MSN. I was concerned that I was overdoing it on G so I diluted the density of KWT 1, went down in G but up in MSN Beta...?

I shall be paying more attention to the new MSN if it stays this way.

[ephricon]

Okay here's a completely different point of view...

No, wait a minute, I too like the beta results!

They appear much more relevant, less affected by spam and hey my sites are doing pretty well too, as they should.

[lorien1973]

MSN has a lot less spam for me (spam defined as any site that ranks higher than I do); therefore I love it ;)

What is MSN using for its current results? Is it still using inktomi and overture?

[melfan]

What is MSN using for its current results? Is it still using inktomi and overture?

Yes I belive it still overture ads that appearing on BETA pages. This was also mentioned at webmasterworld.

[PhilipB]

I'm doing better in MSN Beta, hopefully they don't change it too much from now until the official launch.

[Las Vegas Homes]

MSN does seem a lot more relevant than google right now for my industry. In the regular MSN results my site is # 7 in Beta # 4 but I have a couple more sites that are top 20 for our main key phrase.

I also agree that at least for my industry and in my market those sites that are ranked in google in the top and are spamming are not in the MSN results. Just to clarify I have a site in the top 10 of google as well.

[melfan]

I also have a real estate site and it is #1 for my target keyword in MSN BETA

[mudnik]

woohoo..I have jumped from nowhere on msn to #2 on msn beta for a keyword that has 3,913.5 searches/day on overture...

However, word tracker shows 18.0 /day for the same keyword. Which one should I refer to? Just fyi, my present site gets 6-8 hits/day from google...

[bigslowrock]

Does anyone know if MSN is going to do an image search like google has?

edit:

nevermind- looks like they just added it.

[Tid]

MSN beta is definitely better and easier. seos must be happy

__________________________
Private English Lessons (http://www.londinium.com/london/22397.html), One to One Lessons (http://www.usingenglish.com/links/Detailed/1806.html), English Links (http://www.english-tutor.co.uk/links.html), English Tutor (http://www.english-tutor.co.uk/), Essay Writing (http://www.pressbox.co.uk/Detailed/18463.html)

[smindsrt]

They need to work on it a bit!

For a major KW I have a sub page that has zero links pointing to it (only internals) and it out ranks my homepage that has tons of links pointing to it with that KW in the anchor. (shaking head)

The sub page is on the first page for the term and the homepage is on the 2nd page. Go figure all those links and I didn't even need them. lol

[Tid]

Google loves links but MSN may be giving more weight to on-page factors, popularity of site, and freshness of page. More here (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=5040)

_____________________
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[lilquit]

when will Beta Launch??

[! !]

http://beta.search.msn.com/docs/submit.aspx?

Generally our web crawler, MSNBot, can find most pages on the Internet. However if your site does not appear on MSN Search, you can send us the address (URL).

Type the characters from the picture
In the box below, type the characters that you see in the picture. This helps ensure that a person, not an automated program, is submitting the URL.

If you don't see the picture, make sure your browser is set to allow images. If you change the image setting, refresh this page to continue.

Characters:

Type the URL of your homepage
MSNBot follows links from your homepage to find other pages on your site.

Example: http://www.example.com/.

[yfs1]

My ranking positions are nearly identical for all my main keywords in both but the quality of sites below me is better in the Beta. I'm not sure though if that makes it better from my standpoint (as a site owner) but it does look better from a user standpoint.

[nandini]

I am getting some good rankings in MSN, but GG bot seems to be more stronger than MSN in deep crawling a site...

[melfan]

One of my site that ranks #1 last week got demoted to #3 spot. Whew they update they ranking pretty fast.

[Blogmaster]

Attention mods: I think we need an "MSN" section now :)

Mike

[randfish]

Put up a review and somewaht detailed analysis of MSN's beta results vs. Yahoo! & Google at http://www.socengine.com/seo/guide/msn-beta-vs-yahoo-google.html

[Las Vegas Homes]

Put up a review and somewaht detailed analysis of MSN's beta results vs. Yahoo! & Google at http://www.socengine.com/seo/guide/msn-beta-vs-yahoo-google.html

How can you say that the results in MSN are poor? I know in my industry the new beta MSN shows MORE relevant results than google. I have also noticed that a lot of the sites in google that use doorway pages and a lot of keyword spam are not listed in msn for my industry.

Also when looking in my industry I only find on average about 8 or 9 sites that really relate to what a consumer is intending to find when they search for our main key phrases. This means only 8 or 9 sites in the top 20 for those phrases. This is not a good percentage and to me shows that google isnt that relative.

How does a online drug store relate to real estate? I have not found any of these types of results in the new msn for my industry.

Also looking at my logs my MSN hits are almost equal with google and I have my site in the top 10 in google for my main search phrase. When I compare the figures from yahoo and msn I have a 2 to 1 ratio of more hits than I get from google for the same search phrase.

Also tracking my real estate leads that are generated I get more conversion from MSN and Yahoo than I do google.

[Blogmaster]

all my friends from http://www.realestatewebmasters.com are doing exceptionally well on the new msn search. including me :)

So, in my eyes the current version is great!

But then again, wake me up when the fat lady sings!

[randfish]

Las Vegas Homes - I love the fact that my site is #1 for practically every related search at MSN, but I need to be realistic about the results. I'm slightly partial to MSN beating Google, but even still I can't deny that their current algo is providing the most relevant and accurate results.

Did you read the report? (here (http://www.socengine.com/seo/guide/msn-beta-vs-yahoo-google.html)) I agree with your analysis of the spam pages that get into Google's algo, but the report is fairly comprehensive.

sitetutor - glad to hear things are going well for you and the crew. I got thrown off that forum several months ago for justified reasons, but I wish them all success.

[Blogmaster]

omg I remember that!

I've had my fair share of warnings before ... but it's been a few months and just like you ... I've learned :)

Anyways, your report is great. I will never pretend to fully understanding what is going on, but there is a strong pattern especially for someone who has been watching search engine movements for years.

And it is all moving towards customer service, best results, in 2 words:

Common sense!


I like the msn results a lot for less selfish reasons as well.

It seems like they have a fresh start while Google is still carrying baggage.
I also think that the Google share holders will run it down long term speaking, but that's just me.

Microsoft seems to never before have put real effort into their search results despite their infinity of resources.
Now that their energy is focused on it, I believe they will surpass yahoo and Google.

But once again, just in moho!


Mike

[Las Vegas Homes]

I have really only looked at the real estate industry and cant speculate as to the returned results of any other industry, but from what I see in the new msn, it is more relevant for my industry.

Real estate and search engines is more difficult than most believe in the seo world. I personally believe SEs like google have a seperate algo for real estate and certain markets of real estate.

7 out of the top 20 results in google for my markets primary search phrases are websites that have really no meaning to the consumer that is searching for true real estate information on this market and no real content. In MSN 1 out of the top 20 is only unrelated and all have content related to this search and not just BLs. Maybe I am worng but to me this shows more relevancy than googles results.

Also it is not the fact that I have a little better rankings in MSN than google( only by 3 positions ). I still have a top 10 website in google for the same key phrase, but whether I was there or not as a consumer I see more relevant results in MSN for the real estate industry.

Also I to agree your report was very good but I do disagree with some of it.

[randfish]

Thanks for your readings and reviews guys.

LV Homes - Do let me know what areas you found lacking, I'm hoping to improve upon my findings over the next few days.

[ViciousSummer]

Does anyone know when the beta is supposed to launch?

[SEbasic]

I hear it should be late this year... I guess the end of December (But we are talking about MSN here, so it will probabally be march 05) ;)

[Las Vegas Homes]

Thanks for your readings and reviews guys.

LV Homes - Do let me know what areas you found lacking, I'm hoping to improve upon my findings over the next few days.

Area's that I looked in were for city plus real estate.

1. Boca Raton
2. Las Vegas
3. Orlando
4.Myrtle Beach
5.Destin
6.Denver
7.Houston
8.Austin
9.Pensacola
10.Virginia Beach

These are just a few. I see less than a 60% relevancy in google. In MSN- Beta the relevancy is over 90%. Most sites listed in google are well aged sites some national that dont have a lot of rich content other than BLs and IMHO is of no use to the consumer with the intent in which the search was intended. Please feel free to verify this data for yourself and let me know if you see the samething.

[Blogmaster]

offcially January 1st, it would not look good for them if they broke their promise ;)

[exam]

These are just a few. I see less than a 60% relevancy in google. In MSN- Beta the relevancy is over 90%. Most sites listed in google are well aged sites some national that dont have a lot of rich content other than BLs and IMHO is of no use to the consumer with the intent in which the search was intended. Please feel free to verify this data for yourself and let me know if you see the samething.

Hope this in not too off-topic, but don't you think that G's sandbox contributes to not including all the freshest material?

[Blogmaster]

To some extent, yes. The real estate filter as well makes it very easy for established businesses to rank with their same old sites no matter what.

[hurricane_sh]

No where to be found on msn and google, but #1 on beta search :-), don't expect the ranking will be kept until release.

[Blogmaster]

There are some excellent new real estate web sites coming out every day and they cannot get rankings. Same time you see web sites having first page rankings for their "city real estate" which haven't been worked on for years and have listings of houses that they sold in 1996.

It's really bad and if you really want to buy a house, you often wind up going with the major sites who rank for "real estate" and then click on whoever is their primary advertiser for the area you want to relocate to.
I understand that Realtors have more than any other industry upset Google with their overly aggressive practices of advertising and pushing themselves to the top "link buying, hidden text ... whatever, you name it" but the solution of a filter does not fix the problem of providing poor search results for web surfers.

[randfish]

sitetutor - You are right. Google is definetly blocking many new sites and it's hurting their results in some sectors. I still think that they provide a better search experience to the average user overall, but they are not providing good results for the searches you mentioned...

exam- Yes. Sandbox absolutely could be contributing to Google's preference for older sites. See these two articles:

- http://www.socengine.com/seo/guide/age-of-sites.html
- http://www.socengine.com/seo/guide/sandbox-march-filter.html

[NewComputer]

If beta stays and becomes the used version, my online business will at least double from there I would assume. Posting between 1 and 13 for a lot of terms where I am currently about 30th - 45th. Nice rise, but things that look too good to be true, usually are :(

[Las Vegas Homes]

From looking at these real estate websites in MSN, I havent seen any blackhat tactics so to speak, but I am no expert. I do however see A LOT of them in google. The real estate website industry has become as bad about seo as the porn industry is.

[Blogmaster]

Yes, it is truly disgraceful what some real estate webmasters have done to get themselves up there. Very unfortunate for the new ethical ones :(

[hulkster]

My christmas lights (http://www.komar.org/xmas/) currently rank #5 in Google and #3 in MSN Search (related page is #6).

But in the MSN Beta, I'm #1 and #2 ... bring it on baby ... hopefully in early December! ;-)

P.S. They are still "forgiving" of special HTML chars in the title tag - see the #1 result for this search (http://beta.search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=longest+car&FORM=QBRE)

[Blogmaster]

I feel like calling Bill Gates saying "it's perfect, don't change it!" :O

[lowrider14044]

Well at least because of their recent spidering I come up #1 for my domain name now. Better then 247th a week or so ago. But I'm still not in the top 100 for KW's that I'm in the top 5 for on Google. :-(

[mudnik]

If beta stays and becomes the used version, my online business will at least double from there I would assume. Posting between 1 and 13 for a lot of terms where I am currently about 30th - 45th. Nice rise, but things that look too good to be true, usually are :(

yeah..same thing applies for me...but the ranking of my site for various keywords have been dropping slowly compared to their positions a week ago. From #1,2 to #5,6 and from #5,6 to #10+. Maybe the engine have been indexing more sites.

[cgo85]

Sitetutor... are you saying that there maybe a filter specifically for Real Estate related websites or other niched websites in the SERPS? I've never heard of this... I like the new MSN though because it seems to being indexing pages fast. I've found backlinks that I've acquired earlier in the day show up at night!!! Crazy!!!

[eclipse]

MSN is not so great. One of my old site ranks #1 for 30 000 000 kw with just 20 000 blog spamed backlinks ;/ This is not a good sign. This kw is verry competative.

[Las Vegas Homes]

Cgo85, I to believe that their is a real estate only fliter that google has. I believe though that it is only applied to certain major markets. I also believe it is based on the number of websites using adwords within that market.

I feel google has also placed more fliters on websites related to real estate that dont apply to other industies and also a different weighting factor for links going to and from real estate related websites as well.

[4Comparison]

It is interesting to examine the posts regarding MSN beta here and on other forums. Many sites jump from obscurity in G & Y to top 10. My new sites ( < 6mo.) have optimized pages, with very good allin: results, below 1000 in G & Y for many keyphrases but rank top 20 in the beta. Older, established sites have smaller changes, most slightly down.

IMHO, I think the beta has no reference to age of site presence and must rely on content. Even B/Ls do not appear to have a major significance in the beta so far. That might be worked out prior to release since they now have the data from their massive indexing.

I have also noticed the beta will not go deep into the SERPs for a given term. When trying to get page 10-15, it always fails. They have a bulk of work yet to be done.

[SEbasic]

When trying to get page 10-15, it always fails. They have a bulk of work yet to be done.
I get that with google too. :)

[Foxy]

What I do find is that sometimes when I search [for this phrase I am #1] I am not there, but if I refresh/re-search it mostly comes back/appears, however yesterday it would not appear at all, but this morning it is back.

I thought that it might have something to do with the caching dates, anybody else experience this?

[melfan]

@foxy - I also experience that every now and then.

[darqSHADOW]

Well, MSNBot hit me big for the first time, over 10k pages last nite alone. I checked today on the beta page, and I'm ranked page 1 for all of my targetted keywords. I even have better rankings on the new MSN than on Google.

DS

[Extranet Guy]

anyone heard any dirt about when they're going to go live with the Beta index?

[! !]

http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=SMCRT&q=search%20engine%20optimization

http://beta.search.msn.com/results.aspx?FORM=SMCRT&q=search%20engine%20optimization


Literally - all you have to do is either ADD or SUBTRACT the
beta
in the URL in the Address Bar to instantly analyze any SERPS differences

[jebby]

Thanks for the tip! I sure like the beta results for all my keywords.

[cgo85]

From what I've heard they've gone live with it in some areas.

[mudnik]

From what I've heard they've gone live with it in some areas.

Heard from who and in what areas?

[gchaney]

Welpers, I like both. Ranking well in MSN now for all but two primary and one primary jumps in and out as I keep messing with it....lol

In beta I own all my KW from #1 to lowest #10 which is what I want.

If beta goes live as stands my traffic is going to sky rocket based on MSN alone due to searches per month factor only vs position location for majors.

With regards to G, well, they can go to hell. Nowhere to be found anywhere except one minor phrase stuck in the 60's. All the MSN Standard results tell me is G is "repressing" my site for being 6 months old now. (oops, happy b-day site!! lol)

Cheers

[iconrate]

#7 for "buddy icons" woo!
http://beta.search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=buddy+icons&FORM=QBHP

[! !]

http://beta.search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx?t=SEARCH_WEBMASTER_CONC_AboutSiteRanking.htm&FORM=WRDD

http://beta.search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx?t=SEARCH_WEBMASTER_CONC_AboutYourSiteDescription.htm


Beta MSN is admitting publically that -

Link Popularity and Popularity of Links, Meta Description Tags
along with Body text -

are factored into the SERRPs

[daamsie]

http://beta.search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx?t=SEARCH_WEBMASTER_CONC_AboutSiteRanking.htm&FORM=WRDD

http://beta.search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx?t=SEARCH_WEBMASTER_CONC_AboutYourSiteDescription.htm


Beta MSN is admitting publically that -

Link Popularity and Popularity of Links, Meta Description Tags
along with Body text -

are factored into the SERRPs

Reading over those pages, all it really says is that the meta description tag is used in creating the 'description' that msn shows (just like Google does basically). I couldn't find any quote saying it is factored into the serps. Can you point me to one??

[Las Vegas Homes]

The one thing I see in MSN Beta that is not being used to calculate serps is the age of the website. IMHO the age of a website is very very very important in googles algo. I believe even more so important than BLs. As just one piece of evidence of this search Atlanta real estate in google and look at the # 1 website, google shows this site with 41 BLs indexed and the site is # 1.

The date which that website was created was in 1998 so IMHO I believe age of the site holds A LOT more weight than BLs.Also comparing my real estate market here when you look at the dates which all the real estate agent websites were created they are all ranked according to the age of the website. There are however a few exceptions to this. One site in my market contains about 70 more BLs than the site below them, however the site below them was created 6 months before.

Dont get me wrong I believe BLs are very important but I dont believe they hold as much weight as they use to with Google. IMHO age age age.

[! !]

There was no quote


just "copied in quotes" the keywords in meta description Tags - - -
from individual Pages and used as a search term --- they came up in the SERPs

Been using that technique with all SEs to discover what TAGS and Attributes are used in Ranking Algorithms

[daamsie]

There was no quote


just "copied in quotes" the keywords in meta description Tags - - -
from individual Pages and used as a search term --- they came up in the SERPs

Been using that technique with all SEs to discover what TAGS and Attributes are used in Ranking Algorithms

Well, it's not the same as MSN 'admitting it publically'.

Interesting finding though. I didn't think any serious search engine would be silly enough to still use those spam-friendly meta tags. Have you verified that the text is nowhere else on the page or in anchor text perhaps??

[arundirect]

It has moved to 2nd from 6th!

Arun
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
High Paying AdSense Keywords (http://yahoouk.org/adsense.htm) - For a huge Discount of 40% this New year. Valid till 20th January 2005

[uca]

I'm not doing any good with the beta version.
I might have to change a lot... :mad:

[! !]

The Relevancy/Ranking Algorithms seem to change the fastest our of all Searchings - they can't seem to decide which path they are going to take.

It seems hard to imagine that their SERPs could really be that innovative - has not all programmatic possibities been thought of by now?

[dcristo]

The Relevancy/Ranking Algorithms seem to change the fastest our of all Searchings - they can't seem to decide which path they are going to take.

It seems hard to imagine that their SERPs could really be that innovative - has not all programmatic possibities been thought of by now?

Its in Beta testing stage so its only natural that their SERPs will change often. I haven't noticed a huge fluctuation in SERP movement.

[! !]

http://blogs.msdn.com/msnsearch/archive/2005/01/08/349199.aspx

Interesting - they are slowing redirecting searchers to Beta MSN based on some standard (geographic , cookie???)

They have started to get more aggressive THIS WEEK according to the MSN Blog from LAST WEEK

As you know we have been testing the beta of our new search service on an opt-in basis for several months now. From time to time we also route some of the customers from our live search service at search.msn.com through the Beta web site in order to do scalability testing. Next week we intend to begin turning up the dial and direct more of our users to the Beta. You’ll continue to see us doing this on occasion for the forseeable future. As before, the service remains in beta status and we will officially launch it when it’s ready.



Oshoma Momoh,

General Manager, MSN Search Program Management

[virginia-home]

These sites seem to be ranking well in both MSN and Beta. Compare and see if that helps anyone:
Virginia Real Estate Relocation Guide (http://www.virginia-home.com/)
Grellingers Boca Raton Real Estate in Florida (http://www.grellingers.com/)
Kurfiss, Bethlehem PA, Villanova, Main Line Real Estate (http://www.kurfiss.com/)
Luxury Homes, Luxury Real Estate (http://www.luxuryrealestate.com/)
Hilton Head Real Estate Property for Sale (http://www.luxurypropertybuyers.com/)

[forums]

msn does not seem to be giving as much weight to Link Popularity,
but seem to have an effective way of removing Spam sites to return relevant serps.

This is the first time in years that we have started to use them and yahoo.

[dcristo]

msn does not seem to be giving as much weight to Link Popularity

Are you sure we're referring to the same MSN here.

[ViciousSummer]

Yep, I think MSN is actually doing a really good job and I've switched from using Google to MSN for my search needs.

I agree that MSN puts more weight on page content then link popularity, yet it manages to filter out the spam.

[Foxy]

Are you sure we're referring to the same MSN here.

Likewise.........:)

[SEbasic]

Yep, I think MSN is actually doing a really good job and I've switched from using Google to MSN for my search needs. Really?!?!?

I am soooooo dissapointed with MSN so far.

It's getting better for sure, but I just couldn't use it for actual searching.

Yahoo! is top of the pile again in terms of results - For sure.

But to say MSN is "Catching the spam" just isn't right. It's still BY FAR, the easiest search engine to spam, and some really simple (Old) spamming techniques still work.

[ViciousSummer]

I always search for things that no one in their right mind would spam for, I guess, so that could be why :D. But, MSN works for me!

[yfs1]

But to say MSN is "Catching the spam" just isn't right. It's still BY FAR, the easiest search engine to spam, and some really simple (Old) spamming techniques still work.
Just do a search for "backgammon" to see how easily and quickly they can be manipulated (this is an SEO contest commented on in another thread)

[SEbasic]

Yeah, I saw that the other day...

It's just embarrasing.