AdSense Per Click Payout Based On Natural Rankings

digitalpoint

Nov 9th 2004, 1:04 pm

I'm just going to throw this one out there for people to tear apart...

I've noticed something interesting with pretty much every site I run AdSense on. The better it ranks for it's main keywords (which is what AdSense would be based on) in a natural search in Google, the higher the AdWords cost (and AdSense per click payout).

One site ranked around #25 in the SERPs for it's keywords. AdSense paid roughly $0.10 per click. As it slowly moved up in natural rankings, so did the AdSense per click payout, until now it's top 5 and it gets $1.50 per click on average (nothing else has changed).

Conversely, I have a site that did rank top 5 for something, and it was getting about $1.20 for AdSense. The rankings have dropped, and the AdSense per click payout mirrored that drop (now it's averages $0.02 per click).

It would make sense if that was at least part of their "smart pricing" algorithm, since a site that ranks high naturally is going to have more value to the AdSense avertiser generally.

Just curious if anyone else has seen anything like this, or am I just crazy?

a389951l

Nov 9th 2004, 1:08 pm

I had a similar thought last month. As my site went up for several keywords, my per click was rising very nicely.

But this month, I ranked the same or a little better but my CPC has dropped overall. Hmm. The only difference is that I added fastclick to a small portion to my site along with adsense. This makes me wonder if this is the root cause. I have taken it off to see what happens.

rustybrick

Nov 9th 2004, 1:10 pm

I would like to hear from others on this. :) Not that I don't trust you but it might be one of those crazy coincidences.

digitalpoint

Nov 9th 2004, 1:10 pm

Well there could be other factors of course... Especially since AdWords is a bid based system. But I've seen it enough times where the per click payout trend exactly mirrors the site's rankings that I'm starting to think it's not coincidental, and at least part of the smart pricing system.

The combination of AdSense Charts (http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/adsense-charts/) and the Keyword Tracker (http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/keywords/) makes it easy to visualize.

rustybrick

Nov 9th 2004, 1:12 pm

Well there could be other factors of course... Especially since AdWords is a bid based system. But I've seen it enough times where the per click payout trend exactly mirrors the site's rankings that I'm starting to think it's not coincidental, and at least part of the smart pricing system.

The combination of AdSense Charts and the [url=http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/keywords/]Keyword Tracker (http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/adsense-charts/) makes it easy to visualize.

But what logic would you use to relate rankings of a keyword phrase and smart pricing system?

digitalpoint

Nov 9th 2004, 1:14 pm

Simply that if an AdWords advertiser bids high for a keyword (and that's what his ad is being displayed via AdSense based on), you could argue that since Google's natural rankings are based on relevancy, the fact that the page ranks high for that keyword makes the users on that site more valuable to the AdWords advertiser.

rustybrick

Nov 9th 2004, 1:22 pm

I see, very interesting theory...

digitalpoint

Nov 9th 2004, 1:28 pm

I'm not saying it's right... just wanted to open it up for discussion. It just appears that way for my sites for whatever reason.

exam

Nov 9th 2004, 1:38 pm

Shawn, I like the theory :) And it explains why I get so many $0.03 clicks.

dejaone

Nov 9th 2004, 2:07 pm

that could be part of the smart pricing. I get most of traffic from combinations of keywords, not main keywords, but the EPC is very good. Well If I can rank the main keywords higher, i can get even better EPC.

Such Great Heights

Nov 9th 2004, 2:26 pm

I'd have to agree that this is an intersting theory and seems to me that it would make sense from Google's point of view as well.

But it seems like a lot fo work to match up a site's keywords with it's SERP ranking.

Well I guess if the AdWords advertisers are paying for keyword "widget" and only want to show their ad for pages that relate to "widget" Google's AdSense can do a quick check to see if the page it is displaying AdSense on comes up in the top 10 for the Google search of "widget."

Then from there Google can decide if it wants to show the AdWords advertisers who are bidding the highest on the keyword "faces" or to show the lowest bidders.

What this makes me ask is what about if you show up high in the SERPs for a keyphrase that is "close" to your main keyword (ie. part of the keyphrase the AdWords advertisers are paying for) just not on the main keyphrase.

Say your page shows up as #1 in the SERPs for "powered blue widgets" and the AdWords advertisers are bidding on "widgets."
I'm guessing you'd get a better payout than not ranking at all for that keyphrase.
So then would you get more payout per click if you were #1 in the SERPs for "blue widgets"?
Then that would mean even more if your page was #1 for just the keyword "widgets" right?

But is Google going to search for where your site ranks for all various keyphrases? Or does Google check their list of most searched phrases that have the keyword "widgets" in it and start at the top and works it's way down the popular search list until it finds your page?

Hmmm...
I guess I could ask questions all day huh?
Anyone doing a test?

GuyFromChicago

Nov 9th 2004, 2:30 pm

I guess I never really made the connection, but now that I look at it I see similar results with a page I run Adsense on. When the page was new and not placing well in the serps my per click payouts were low, under $0.10 each. As the page has made progress in the serps, the per click payout have also increased substantially.

I guess I always attributed the increased payouts to a competitive market - the advertisers were paying more so of course my $ per click would increase. Your theory is interesting though, and makes me wonder if the increase in payout could be attributed to both, better placement in the serps combined with advertisers continually upping their bid amount to achieve higher placement in the paid listings.

debunked

Nov 9th 2004, 2:30 pm

I lowered our bids on adwords and I noticed we were in the second spot of a search today on the google listings (the sponsored section of course) I figured if I lowered as much as I did it wouldn't show up that high??? It is fine with me.

Jackobo007

Nov 9th 2004, 2:52 pm

I get too many $0.02 clicks lately :( something definitely has changed

Such Great Heights

Nov 9th 2004, 3:02 pm

Yes this might be the change that made so many see their payouts go down.
Of course it shouldn't have effected anyone with top ranking in the SERPs, unless it was a boost in payout.

chachi

Nov 9th 2004, 4:23 pm

Shawn, have you checked the bids over the same time period? It would be interesting to see the three pieces of data over time and how they do or do not correlate.

Such Great Heights

Nov 9th 2004, 4:34 pm

yes can you track this with the keyword tracker so we can have a pretty graph of watching a certain keyword go up in rankings to #1 and see it correlate with the payouts of AdSense going up in price. :)

digitalpoint

Nov 9th 2004, 4:44 pm

I haven't checked the AdWords bids, but they are generally the same advertisers that are shown on the ads.

johncr

Nov 9th 2004, 5:32 pm

I get too many $0.02 clicks lately :( something definitely has changed

I have never seen less than $0.03 clicks. That's something to think bout. several months go I asked Google about a minimum when I got 0.06 clicks for the first time and they replied that I should not expect to see 04's very often and never less than $0.04 clicks. Actually I got lots of 04's six months later and some $0.03 every now and then.

What kind of site do you run?

Infiniterb

Nov 9th 2004, 6:22 pm

I wouldn't agree. I rank 9th for my keywords, and my EPC is fairly low.

NewComputer

Nov 9th 2004, 6:32 pm

digitalpoint

Nov 9th 2004, 6:33 pm

As I said... it's not fact, only speculation. But in my little sampling that's exactly what it seems like. And of course that wouldn't be the only factor in determining the payout, just one of many.

Such Great Heights

Nov 9th 2004, 6:58 pm

I wouldn't agree. I rank 9th for my keywords, and my EPC is fairly low.
Well now just rank higher for that keyword and let us know if your pay per click goes up as well. :D

What if the keyword AdSense is showing for is "Warcraft" and you don't rank anywhere near the top for that one keyphrase but you rank well for "World of Warcraft?" The advertisers are paying for the keyword "Warcraft" not "World of Warcraft."

john_loch

Nov 9th 2004, 7:10 pm

The theory is consistent with what I see, and it makes sense :)

Cheers,

JL

NewComputer

Nov 9th 2004, 7:33 pm

As I said... it's not fact, only speculation. But in my little sampling that's exactly what it seems like. And of course that wouldn't be the only factor in determining the payout, just one of many.

I guess to me I had always assumed this is what it was, hence my (and many others) strong determination to attain top postings and having adsense on my sites. I will definitely monitor it more closely. I do have one 'anomoly' and that is my virus protection page. It does not rank well, but any traffic that goes and that clicks on the ads there seems to pay large dividends per my channels. It is too difficult for me to try to attain top postings for that page, but every once in a while there is a nice surprise when someone clicks there (***THIS IS NOT A SOLICITATION TO CLICK ON MY VIRUS PAGE OR ANY PAGES ADSENSE, I WILL TRACK IP'S, SO PLEASE DO NOT DO IT. THANK YOU FOR RESPECTING MY REQUEST****)

joeychgo

Nov 9th 2004, 9:48 pm

hurricane_sh

Nov 10th 2004, 1:02 am

NewComputer

Nov 10th 2004, 6:12 am

joeychgo

Nov 10th 2004, 6:50 am

Highest targetted traffic = most clicks (likely) which equates to the most money.

but its not like the ads only appear on 1 site - they appear on many at the same time. Its the click that matters - not where it came from.

Such Great Heights

Nov 10th 2004, 6:55 am

Forgive me, but I dont see how this would enhance things for google.

Why would they care where an ad was clicked from? A click is a click - assuming only that its a legitimate click - why would they care what the ranking of the page is?
NC pretty much said it, but think of it from the advertisers perspective.

Let's say you're buying ad space from Google and you are paying the most money for your ads to be shown for a certain keyword. Wouldn't you want you ads shown on the most relevant pages to the keyword you are paying for? This would mean the most relevant page for the keyword you're paying for would be the page your ads show up on.

I mean which would you rather see;
1) Your ads showing up some kids blog who mentions they just bought a new "Canon Digital Camera" and since his AdSense is directly under his post it shows ads for Canon Digital Camera Deals, but the rest of this persons blog is about Star Wars?
OR
2) Have your ads showing up on a digital camera review site on a page specifically about the latest and greatest Canon Digital Camera that ranks #1 for the search phrase "Canon Digital Camera?"

If I was the highest paying advertiser I'd want choice 2. :D

And if Google could make sure that scenario 2 happened to me more than scenario 1 I'd stick with Google.

AdSense brought in something like 48% of their total revenue (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=4315) so they want more advertisers. And by placing the highest paying advertisers in the best spots (ie. like having the back cover of a magazine be your ad) you attract the biggest advertisers and more people want to advertise with you [Google].
-----------------
more
but its not like the ads only appear on 1 site - they appear on many at the same time. Its the click that matters - not where it came from.
If you just want traffic than the click is all that matters.

But if you want well target traffic then it does matter.

And well targeted traffic meaning people who are searching for Canon Digital Cameras or Digital Camera Deals, or Camera Deals.

The page doing the advertising will get a lot more sales from 50 people who are looking for what they sell, rather than 100 people who are looking for something completely different to buy. Or even a 1000 people who aren't looking to buy anything, but happen to stumble onto their page. The 50 well target people will give out a higher conversion rate. Almost always.
:cool:

NewComputer

Nov 10th 2004, 7:08 am

NC pretty much said it, but think of it from the advertisers perspective.

Let's say you're buying ad space from Google and you are paying the most money for your ads to be shown for a certain keyword. Wouldn't you want you ads shown on the most relevant pages to the keyword you are paying for? This would mean the most relevant page for the keyword you're paying for would be the page your ads show up on.

I mean which would you rather see;
1) Your ads showing up some kids blog who mentions they just bought a new "Canon Digital Camera" and since his AdSense is directly under his post it shows ads for Canon Digital Camera Deals, but the rest of this persons blog is about Star Wars?
OR
2) Have your ads showing up on a digital camera review site on a page specifically about the latest and greatest Canon Digital Camera that ranks #1 for the search phrase "Canon Digital Camera?"

If I was the highest paying advertiser I'd want choice 2. :D

And if Google could make sure that scenario 2 happened to me more than scenario 1 I'd stick with Google.

AdSense brought in something like 48% of their total revenue (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=4315) so they want more advertisers. And by placing the highest paying advertisers in the best spots (ie. like having the back cover of a magazine be your ad) you attract the biggest advertisers and more people want to advertise with you [Google].
-----------------
more

If you just want traffic than the click is all that matters.

But if you want well target traffic then it does matter.

And well targeted traffic meaning people who are searching for Canon Digital Cameras or Digital Camera Deals, or Camera Deals.

The page doing the advertising will get a lot more sales from 50 people who are looking for what they sell, rather than 100 people who are looking for something completely different to buy. Or even a 1000 people who aren't looking to buy anything, but happen to stumble onto their page. The 50 well target people will give out a higher conversion rate. Almost always.
:cool:

Only addition I would make SGH is that I would really only want my ads displaying where traffic was going to turn into $$$$. Personal blogs I am not sure are the most appropriate place to have adsense ads displayed. I mean, most of us do it, but I try to maintain my blog as a business and tech blog.

I would not want to find out my canon digital camera (which are great by the way) ad was being displayed and potentially clicked on by a kids friend from his blog.

This is still in its 'infancy' and certain strategies and ideas will be worked out as it continues to grow and prosper.

digitalpoint

Nov 10th 2004, 7:41 am

Very interesting observation, it makes good sense from publishers' part. But if think from adwords' point of view, Google should show the highest bids, that's how Adwords works, and also what advertisers want. It makes no sense for Google to show lower bids.
Ads are not ordered solely by the bid price. The CTR on an individual ad is factored in as well. If someone bids $10 per click, but never gets any clicks because his ad sucks, Google will display the ad that bids $0.25 per click and gets a lot of clicks more than the one with no clicks.

NewComputer

Nov 10th 2004, 7:47 am

but its not like the ads only appear on 1 site - they appear on many at the same time. Its the click that matters - not where it came from.

I disagree. The click matters, for us publishers, but as for an advertiser you want your ad getting seen by the most relevant eyes out there. Again, some clicks from a kids blog are not the same as some clicks from tech review page as SGH said. Better chance for conversion and more likely to pay MORE for future use and then bigger returns to us advertisers who are promoting their ads.

Such Great Heights

Nov 10th 2004, 9:27 am

Only addition I would make SGH is that I would really only want my ads displaying where traffic was going to turn into $$$$. Personal blogs I am not sure are the most appropriate place to have adsense ads displayed. I mean, most of us do it, but I try to maintain my blog as a business and tech blog.

I would not want to find out my canon digital camera (which are great by the way) ad was being displayed and potentially clicked on by a kids friend from his blog.
I think we are on the same page. :)
I would want my ads displaying on the tech review site rather than a random blog as well. But I don't think, as an AdWords advertiser, you have a choice whether or not your ads show on someone's blog or a tech review site. They are both considered part of the "content network" so I don't think advertisers have much of a choice. This is where Google comes in to place the higher paid ads on more relevant sites displaying AdSense. Or so this theory goes. :)

NewComputer

Nov 10th 2004, 9:41 am

Ads are not ordered solely by the bid price. The CTR on an individual ad is factored in as well. If someone bids $10 per click, but never gets any clicks because his ad sucks, Google will display the ad that bids $0.25 per click and gets a lot of clicks more than the one with no clicks.

Shawn,

Just curious where that information may be from? Would that mean they take into consideration the type of content you are writing for your ads (or images created) as well as price?

digitalpoint

Nov 10th 2004, 9:47 am

Indirectly they take it into account. A poorly written ad or a image that does not make people click on it will ultimately end up with a lower CTR than ads that are better crafted. So Google does not site down and directly decide which ads are "better" ads... they simply let the market figure it out on it's own.

Improve your ad's position.

Your ad's position is determined by two factors: maximum cost-per-click and your ad's actual clickthrough rate.

Increasing either your maximum cost-per-click (CPC) or your ad's clickthrough rate (CTR) will improve your ad's position.

Click here to learn how to increase your maximum CPC.

Read "Optimize your content and keyword targeting" below to learn how to improve your campaign's CTR performance.

SEbasic

Nov 10th 2004, 9:53 am

I was under the impression that this only applied to the ads found in the google SERP's.

Not the adsense publisher sites.

Is that wrong then?

T0PS3O

Nov 10th 2004, 10:02 am

One way to check this theory is to find a keyword two DPers rank for. One high and one low. Stick AdSense on there and see the earnings. If they're not the same but the ads are the same and we are one step closer.

digitalpoint

Nov 10th 2004, 10:07 am

I was under the impression that this only applied to the ads found in the google SERP's.

Not the adsense publisher sites.

Is that wrong then?
I haven't seen them state either way in regards to AdSense, but I don't see why it would be any different. Why would Google want to put up ads that ultimately they don't make any money on?

mudnik

Nov 10th 2004, 10:14 am

Let me give an example..

5 bidders for keyword xxx
$5, $4, $3, $2 and $1.

Google checks the score of all its publishers for the keyword xxx.
Those with higher score would be given the $5 and $4 ads...and so on.

It could be a way for them to distribute out the ads. However, the algo would not be so straight forward as it has to take into account all the adwords and all the publishers and then decide what ads to show...1 way is to decide what keywords each page score highest for and then use the above allocation method..

NewComputer

Nov 10th 2004, 10:19 am

Pretty much, and I would not be surprised if that is waht they were doing already. You know, with all the information they store from the toolbar etc... In the end, I have to believe that G will do what makes it, it's publishers and it's advertisers the most money.

Mia

Nov 10th 2004, 11:53 pm

Shawn, you are exactly correct in your assertion. I have a wireless customer that is doing $15,000 per month in AdSense revenues.. It's insane.. I talked for hours with him about how he is doing it. He mentioned the Google Tool Bar and the "Ranking" item on it. Generally sites at 7 and above tend to go through the roof in terms of the pay per click. Now to figure out how to do the same :-)

Such Great Heights

Nov 11th 2004, 6:30 am

He mentioned the Google Tool Bar and the "Ranking" item on it. Generally sites at 7 and above tend to go through the roof in terms of the pay per click. Now to figure out how to do the same :-)
I don't think PageRank has much to do with it, but since it is a generally small part in ranking well in the SERPs then I see the correlation.

But don't count on just getting your PageRank up and suddenly your AdSense will pay exponetially more. :)

NewComputer

Nov 11th 2004, 7:32 am

I don't think PageRank has much to do with it, but since it is a generally small part in ranking well in the SERPs then I see the correlation.

But don't count on just getting your PageRank up and suddenly your AdSense will pay exponetially more. :)

I have to believe that your money would rise as your visitors rise. Why wouldn't it?

Mia

Nov 11th 2004, 8:28 am

I have to believe that your money would rise as your visitors rise. Why wouldn't it?

Not necessarily. Just cause you have higher traffic, does not mean people are going to click on the Google links..

bigslowrock

Nov 13th 2004, 11:51 am

Such Great Heights

Nov 13th 2004, 10:07 pm

I basically have two sites. One is unranked and the other has a pr of 5. The PR of 5 pays ALOT more per click, but its natural ranking isn't high at all for the key words of the ads.

It must be a combination of PR and natural rankings.
Are both sites targeting the same keywords? It could be just that there is more paying competition on the site with a PR of 5.

bigslowrock

Nov 13th 2004, 10:35 pm

Neither site at this point is really targeting any keywords, but you are correct they don't have the same "keyword" ads.

--- I did some researching and using the overture tool, it looks like the pr 5 site has bids for its words from $1 to $3 for the top 5 and the other site has .20 to .50$ for the top 5, so disreguard my last post.

I can add no data/info to this thread.

mudnik

Nov 14th 2004, 5:32 am

I just thought of a simple reason why google does it that way. The top ranked sites get all the traffic, so by showing the highest paying advertiser's ads there, google earns much more...and in the process depletes their highest paying advertiser's pockets quickly..
google revenue=clicks * payment per click

digitalpoint

Nov 14th 2004, 7:43 am

If that was the case (and Google's goal), why wouldn't they always display the highest paying AdWords across all sites?

anthonycea

Nov 14th 2004, 7:54 am

Google can and always will do what they want with their algo's to the betterment of the bottom line.

Who is going to stop them? Have they ever been caught doing anything like this before :confused: Is this a CT?? :confused: :)

Does Adsense have anything to do with search results or do CTR on Adsense have anything to do with SERP's.

Yes it does, no it doesn't, yes it does, no it does not, Oh yes it happens, Oh no it doesn't.

nriweb

Nov 14th 2004, 3:51 pm

I basically have two sites. One is unranked and the other has a pr of 5. The PR of 5 pays ALOT more per click, but its natural ranking isn't high at all for the key words of the ads.

It must be a combination of PR and natural rankings.

I had a page with PR0 (new page) with a special channel assigned to its ads. After a few months the PR has risen to 4 from 0 .. gradually. Yesterday I was checking the cost per click .. actually it has come down over the months .. so apparently a PR0 paid me much more than a PR4 ...

but again it could be that the value of the keywords also came down...

ALSO , my page now ranks very high in the google search ... so actually the CPC coming down points to a different direction that what you have experienced !! :confused:

bigslowrock

Nov 14th 2004, 4:18 pm

Does anyone think that unique IPs on the clicks also make a difference?

nriweb- how much new traffic do you think that you are getting?

canadaone

Nov 14th 2004, 4:44 pm

What considered a smart pricing on ppc-based model for key words on imigration canada. appriciate your response.

Such Great Heights

Nov 14th 2004, 5:15 pm

What considered a smart pricing on ppc-based model for key words on imigration canada. appriciate your response.
I don't know ... a dollar?

wasn't this thread about the relation to higher rankings in the SERPs to higher AdSense Click Through Rates for those keywords the domain ranks high for?
:rolleyes:

mudnik

Nov 15th 2004, 5:14 am

If that was the case (and Google's goal), why wouldn't they always display the highest paying AdWords across all sites?

it could, but if it did, then all the lowest paying advertisers would stop advertising (as their ads are not shown) and the highest paying advertisers would soon drop their prices..

digitalpoint

Nov 15th 2004, 7:47 am

I don't agree... if a lower bidding advertiser isn't in the results on a normal Google search, it's not going to cause the higher priced advertisers to lower their bid. The AdWords bidding is really about showing results on the Google results. The AdSense stuff is secondary.

Surf_Dude

Nov 30th 2004, 10:44 pm

This post makes my head spin, along with a few others.

So I have tried to summarize all this in a one-page block diagram -
http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/adwords-adsense-diagram.htm

THIS IS NOT A SOLICITATION TO CLICK ANY ADS.
If you read this, please DO NOT click the ads.
Thank you.

I'm just trying to shed a little more light on the subject using a pictorial format. It was drawn by listening to webmasters here and elsewhere. I want to make it a concensus drawing - multiple people say the same thing, and in it goes. A visual summary of opinions, if you will.

Comments?

darksat

Dec 1st 2004, 3:13 am

Google should have more openness in the way they work out pricing .
Im gonna have to run some tests on adwords at some stage.

schlottke

Dec 1st 2004, 5:38 pm

I think results coming from both yahoo and google are paid quite a bit more than any other incoming traffic..

chachi

Dec 1st 2004, 5:56 pm

it could, but if it did, then all the lowest paying advertisers would stop advertising (as their ads are not shown) and the highest paying advertisers would soon drop their prices..

I agree with Shawn here, if I am a lower bidding advertiser, all I know is I am not getting alot of clicks. I can either up my bids and see what the results are, or drop out. It has little to no effect on the higher bidders. The only way it would affect them is if I tried to be #1...then they may actually up their bids to stay at the top.

gchaney

Dec 2nd 2004, 12:15 am

I would have to disagree with this theory in part. I believe payout is based on the click through rate per thousand which corresponds with the advertising rate being paid.

IMHO

High ranking sites have higher visitor results (your CTM) which increases the value of your impressions. This is why you see higher "Costs" for advertisers displaying on your site. Lower traffic sites (as measured by impressions) receive lower costs to advertise. So, I actually agree with this aspect, but only in part. I do not believe you must rank high in Google. I believe you must have consistent Impressions coupled with a consistent CTR. Regardless if the traffic comes from Y, M or external links. G counts impressions not rank. Relevance of adsense displayed is prefactored using G's own system.

However, for any site, if CTR is low, then you are paid a lower percentage of "available" advertising costs for not converting traffic (CTM) which explains why sometime I get high $ impressions but mostly middies. (damn sure wish it would happen more often) I have "Low Impressions" but good CTR.

So, CTR corresponds to the value of your CTM. Note, if you factor your earnings by the value of your CTM you will always get your total impressions. This is how G factors your value.

If the CTM for your daily activity is $28.45 per thousand impressions, this says google believes the value of the advertising displayed on your site to you for the day is worth .02845 cents per impression. If you divide your payout for the day by your impressions this number will always match your per impression cost. I believe this corresponds with the value vs impression vs CTR.

So, the higher percentage your CTR is, the more valuable your impressions are and a higher percentage of the revenue you will earn. Higher ranking only mean higher impressions. Since impressions do not pay anyone CTR does and you are only paid a percentage based on CTR vs CTM vs $ available from advertising partners. The more impressions the more valuable your space the higher $ your advertisers will be, but CTR will always determine what percentage/share of the advertising $'s you get paid and the value of your CTM.

I don't know if any of this made sense...but hey, its 3am and my brain if so fried...lol

Surf_Dude

Dec 2nd 2004, 8:08 am

I can't find the term CTM used anywhere, not just Google.
The search - epc cpm epm ctr ctm - yields jibberish.
The search - epc cpm epm ctr - good results.
The search - google ctm - yields jibberish.

Would you please define CTM? What does the acronym stand for?
What is it, exactly? A dollar cost of what?

What is a "visitor result"?
Thank you.

gchaney

Dec 2nd 2004, 10:16 am

lol, hey, I told you I was tired....lol CPM ;)

Surf_Dude

Dec 2nd 2004, 2:22 pm

Hey, this stuff fries my brain too.
And I still keep pounding my head against the wall.
I must be getting something out of it.
Ha-ha-ha!

ResearchTechs

Dec 4th 2004, 2:00 pm

I was doing pretty well when my site very first put AdSense on it, but it seems to have diminished slightly over the last couple weeks. Maybe it's because the same people are coming back now to see the website and their ad clicks are worth less because they are the same ip instead? That at the same time as not moving up the ranks on Google yet at all because I haven't been really spidered yet.

Mia

Dec 4th 2004, 9:34 pm

I'm not sure that that would be the case. Perhaps the sites overall traffic is down? I see ups/downs, but a few of our sites are dead on consistent for the most part.. Do you keep any logs? If so, I would take a look at what your overall traffic to that site/s looks like over that same period.

pg20706

Jan 17th 2005, 7:14 am

I would have to disagree with this theory in part. I believe payout is based on the click through rate per thousand which corresponds with the advertising rate being paid...

I agree CTR+impressions are more important factors than ranking because CTR*Impressions = numbers of visitors to the advertisers.

my3cents

Jan 17th 2005, 7:30 am

Maybe it's because the same people are coming back now to see the website and their ad clicks are worth less because they are the same ip instead?

My guess would be that the decline in earnings could be related to your abundance of repeat visitors, but not for the reason above (same IP) but more because the users are getting use to the content/ads. The more the same person sees the same ads, the less they obviously click it. And at some point, repeat visitors may become numb to your ads. That is why it is always good to re-evaluate your site from time to time, rotate sizes and colors possibly. Keep things fresh!

Good luck!

Sharpseo

Jan 26th 2005, 1:38 pm

I have a site that's only one month old. Only the home page is indexed by google, not listed in G serps. I am #1 in MSN, but that shouldn't matter I guess. I'm avging about $.40 per valid click, niche keyword.

Infiniterb

Feb 15th 2005, 12:28 am

Well now just rank higher for that keyword and let us know if your pay per click goes up as well. :D

What if the keyword AdSense is showing for is "Warcraft" and you don't rank anywhere near the top for that one keyphrase but you rank well for "World of Warcraft?" The advertisers are paying for the keyword "Warcraft" not "World of Warcraft."

Still ranking ninth, but for a different keyword, and am starting to notice what Shawn made reference to. HUGE difference in the payouts right now, and I'm enjoying it :)

BigEasy

May 21st 2005, 6:17 pm

So, CTR corresponds to the value of your CTM. Note, if you factor your earnings by the value of your CTM you will always get your total impressions. This is how G factors your value.

If the CTM for your daily activity is $28.45 per thousand impressions, this says google believes the value of the advertising displayed on your site to you for the day is worth .02845 cents per impression. If you divide your payout for the day by your impressions this number will always match your per impression cost. I believe this corresponds with the value vs impression vs CTR.

So, the higher percentage your CTR is, the more valuable your impressions are and a higher percentage of the revenue you will earn. Higher ranking only mean higher impressions. Since impressions do not pay anyone CTR does and you are only paid a percentage based on CTR vs CTM vs $ available from advertising partners. The more impressions the more valuable your space the higher $ your advertisers will be, but CTR will always determine what percentage/share of the advertising $'s you get paid and the value of your CTM.

I don't know if any of this made sense...but hey, its 3am and my brain if so fried...lol

Um... I want to say this as kindly as possible, but your argument here is flawed. Yeah, you will earn more "per impression" if your CTR is higher, but that doesn't have anything to do with CPC. Let's look at an example:

Site A has 1000 impressions on Monday, with 3% CTR. The CPC is $0.10, which yields a CPM and a payout on the day of $3.00.

Site A has 1000 impressions again on Tuesday, but this time with a CTR of 7%. The CPC is $0.10 again, which yields a CPM and a payout on the day of $7.00.

So yeah... the higher CTR on Tuesday results in a higher amount per impression, but so what? We want to know what changes the other variable in the equation... the CPC.

If you are suggesting that the higher CTR will also result in higher CPC I would argue that it doesn't, based on my stats.

Anyway, Shawn's theory is as good as I can think of as to the fluctuations in CPC. I think it makes sense that Google display lower paying advertiser ads on sites that rank lower for a couple of reasons.

G has been working extremely hard to combat site/serp spammers and this would be a good way to combat them, as well as to combat click fraud. Think about it... there are a million sites out there these days that list the so-called "highest paying adsense keywords", which almost certainly has a bunch of new would-be webmasters wanting to cash in on the program.

So doesn't it make sense as a natural quality control for G to relate adsense ads with a site's serps? I think it makes perfect sense.

Maybe what we are seeing is an implementation/testing of an adsense sandbox? I wouldn't be surprised.

yo-yo

May 21st 2005, 10:09 pm

I'm not going to take a side, as I have no proof, but in general I'm going to have to disagree.

I currently have about 10 sites using adsense and not 1 of them ranks anywhere in Google for their biggest keywords. However they almost all rank highly on MSN and Yahoo for the biggest targeted kw.

I've checked the bids for the kw's on overture, and for example, a kw that is consistantly bid by 5+ advertisers at $5.00/click, pays me an average of $1.50/click.

The end of last month all my averages shot down by over 50% across all my sites that averaged over .50/click. Just 2 weeks ago they all show back up to normal. The fall/rise were not consistant with any ranks rising/falling in any search engines.

I'd have to think it would not be in google's best interest to lower the value a click pays based on if the site ranked in their search engine or Yahoo, or wherever else. They would lose a ton of money that way.

lingeriediva

May 22nd 2005, 1:42 am

A slight variation on the theory - I am now ranking well on my keywords but I notice that my click value decends over the 24 hour Google day. It is a small fluctuation but at, say, 1:40 AM my clicks are worth x+3 at 11:20 the clicks are worth x-3. You can see this with the handy adsense checker plugin for Firefox.

So here is my theory: the advertisers who are willing to pay more for a particular keyword also limit the number of clicks they are willing to pay for. They have a budget and a sweetspot which means that by, say noon, Advertiser A,B,C all of whom are paying x+3, have spent their budget leaving Advertisers X,Y,Z who pay low but have a larger daily budget.

This, of course, also suggests a URL blocking strategy: kill the URLs you see at the end of the Google day.

I could, of course, just be crazy - but I thought I would share.

MattL

May 22nd 2005, 1:58 am

I think we are on the same page. :)
I would want my ads displaying on the tech review site rather than a random blog as well. But I don't think, as an AdWords advertiser, you have a choice whether or not your ads show on someone's blog or a tech review site. They are both considered part of the "content network" so I don't think advertisers have much of a choice. This is where Google comes in to place the higher paid ads on more relevant sites displaying AdSense. Or so this theory goes. :)

Actually an Adwords advertiser can control what sites their ads are displayed on. It's called Campaign Negative Sites.

https://adwords.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=13248&hl=en_US

Of course you need to know the site exists before you can enter it. A bit of a problem.

MattL

May 22nd 2005, 2:03 am

anthonycea

May 22nd 2005, 5:39 am

Payouts to publishers are nil and dropping on most keywords, I have one site that still has decent PPC payouts but even that one is dropping.

I think the game will never be what it once was, you will need millions of hits in the future to generate a lot of cash when you only get .03 -.07 cents per click on most clicks.

There are way too many sites now with ADSENSE on them and Google warned us about payouts dropping in their last quarterly report.

It is really happening too.

Shoemoney

May 22nd 2005, 7:00 am

Shawn do you think possibly people are bidding on your domain as a keyword?

I noticed that my domain is showing up as a sugested bidable keyword on adwords for one of my bigger sites and this site seems to increase in ppc consistantly.

For instance maybe digitalpoint is sugested for seo?

I think this is a important reason to brand yourself (via domain) and not squat on bland term domains.

I'm just going to throw this one out there for people to tear apart...

I've noticed something interesting with pretty much every site I run AdSense on. The better it ranks for it's main keywords (which is what AdSense would be based on) in a natural search in Google, the higher the AdWords cost (and AdSense per click payout).

One site ranked around #25 in the SERPs for it's keywords. AdSense paid roughly $0.10 per click. As it slowly moved up in natural rankings, so did the AdSense per click payout, until now it's top 5 and it gets $1.50 per click on average (nothing else has changed).

Conversely, I have a site that did rank top 5 for something, and it was getting about $1.20 for AdSense. The rankings have dropped, and the AdSense per click payout mirrored that drop (now it's averages $0.02 per click).

It would make sense if that was at least part of their "smart pricing" algorithm, since a site that ranks high naturally is going to have more value to the AdSense avertiser generally.

Just curious if anyone else has seen anything like this, or am I just crazy?

chikku

Sep 25th 2005, 3:42 am

i don't understand

chikku

Sep 25th 2005, 3:44 am

adsense is cheating people.they are always looking forward to suspend accounts and eat the amount generated by publishers.

I lost $1350;)

Surf_Dude

Sep 25th 2005, 7:53 am

You dredge this up from 4 monthjs ago, and yet you offer nothing at all relative to the subject - "...Payout Based On Natural Rankings".

I don't understand.

greenway

Sep 25th 2005, 9:01 am

A couple of things i have noticed using adwords and adsense.

Google warned us about payouts dropping this could be for 2 reasons,They are using a different split ratio,instead of 50/50 it could now be 70/30 to bolster there profits since going public or it could be that more and more adwords users have found out that after starting a campaign you can log on most days and drop your bids and still maintain the same ad placement position.

Regarding a higher CPC for serps placement I dumped a load of CSV files in to a database from adsense reports and Keyword Ranking Monitor and the only thing i could see was as you move up and down the rankings for competative keywords there was a huge spike at first that settled back again.

This could be due to SEP but there are to many variables to consider such as bids time of day ect.