Internal Link Passes More PageRank Than External Link

[digitalpoint]

Has anyone else noticed that an internal link seems to pass along more PageRank than an external link?

Most of my tools have some sort of FAQ page that is only linked from the tool page itself.

For example:

http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/search/ is the only page that links to http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/search/faq.html

Check MSN: link:http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/search/faq.html

Check Yahoo link:http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/search/faq.html


So with a single link, that page is PageRank 6.

Now there is also a link to the support forum:
http://forums.digitalpoint.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14

That URL is linked to from numerous other places as well, so at the very least it should have the same PageRank I would think... right?

Check MSN: link:http://forums.digitalpoint.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14

Check Yahoo link:http://forums.digitalpoint.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14


Instead, that page has a PageRank of 5.

The only thing I can think of is the support forum isn't on the same sub-domain. Can anyone else shed some light?

[frankm]

just to add to the speculations , as I also have no idea how google handles PR,

when you have a site like this:
* Homepage that links to
* 10 categories that each link to
* 10 sub pages with some content

and the homepage has some inbound links and gets PR6, the category pages will always(!) get at least pr5, and the subpages will always(!) get pr4

when you add some strange inbound / ountband external links on this site, things start to move, and your inner pages end up with higher PR than the homepage etc etc.

So maybe your FAQ page is not 'really' a pr6, it might as well be a PR4 page, but because it is just one level deeper than the homepage, it is upgraded to PR6 (at least for the toolbar pagerank). External pages do not have a pre-set PR based on the homepage so those pages will actually get a PR4.

I tested this a year ago, one page, pr5 for months, 2 links, one to an internal page: got a PR4 next update (as expected), and one link to a new/fresh domain and that got a pr3 next update.


just my 2cnts

[mdvaldosta]

I think it has to do with the number of outgoing links. People have continuously and ferociously argued with me that outgoing links on a page will not affect that pages pagerank, but I disagree.

The more outgoing links on a page, the less pagerank that gets passed to them. Not only do you affect those pages pagerank, but they also drain yours. I've got proof on my jokes site. www.funnyandjokes.com - the only page that had links to it was the homepage, and it got a PR2. The empty categories pages (the site wasn't done yet) got a PR3 and the pages that did have subcategories got PR1. That's proof enough, but theirs also logic behind it.

Google's algorithym makes note that the average page on the internet has to have a PR1. Think about it, if this is the case than how could you possibly give pagerank to something without taking it from somewhere else? Conclusion? The more outgoing links on a page, the less PR that can pass to those pages and the more PR to get drained from that page.

Your FAQ page has few outgoing links on it, other than the navigation. Most of the links pointing to the support forum may be high in PR, but their also alot of outgoing links on those pages.

For argument, if the PR scale is on a base 8 (just a guess), then it takes 8x more pagerank strength to reach the next level. Based on this, I would say that for every multiple of 8 links on a page then the pages actual PR drops by 1 (8 outgoing drops the pages rank by 1, 64 by 2).

This is just speculation, but I read the google patent and alot of information about it, and this is my conclusion.

[candysmith]

I see the same thing.
Link from a PR6 home page passes on and the linked to page becomes PR5. (1 link only).
Interestingly, if I link to that page from a different page from within the site that also has a PR6 that linked page becomes a PR6. (ie. 2 x PR6 links from within the site).

Thats just my observation.

[liquidboy]

Ive read the patent and your definition mdvaldosta does alot of justice to it! However very superficial :)

The idea of a reserved pool of PR for the entire web and having each website play a part in its equilirbium makes alot of sense to me. Its very similar to how stock markets work especially if you relate a website to a company etc etc.

Your a very insightful man(woman?) mdvaldosta!

[aaron_nimocks]

I always believed this to be true since all my sites (I usually focus on external linking to homepage only) always have "for example" PR5 home, PR4 1 deep, PR3 2 deep, ect.

Seems to me it passes 1 PR lower to the next page. But I do believe there is a limit, you cant have 500 links on the homepage and it passes 1 PR down to all those 500.

But I am currently testing this theory at http://www.donatesearch.com

I have 450 links on the homepage and seeing if all 450 pages will receive 1 PR down from the homepage. I dont think it will work but it doesnt hurt trying. :)

[mdvaldosta]

No I don't believe there is a reserved pool of PR, I believe as Google caches more pages then the bar gets raised. For example it would take twice as many PR "points" to maintain a certain PR if the number of cached pages doubles. So as more pages are added you must acquire more links to maintain the same PR.

[Nintendo]

Seems to me it passes 1 PR lower to the next page.

I got a PR 6 site and once I made a new site, linked to the new site on the PR 6 site and that new site got a PR 6 from that link. Then after I added two other off-domain links it went down to PR 5. So Google might give less to a link to another domain if there's more than one off site link.

[Dakait]

I think both (Internal and External) have same effect. I have seen some variations which may be because of granularity in PR.

[daredashi]

No I don't believe there is a reserved pool of PR, I believe as Google caches more pages then the bar gets raised. For example it would take twice as many PR "points" to maintain a certain PR if the number of cached pages doubles. So as more pages are added you must acquire more links to maintain the same PR.
i totally agree. this is the resone you see single or couple of pages sites having higher PR than portals or big sites.

i don't how it applies to current calculations but this is very good ref. doc http://www.iprcom.com/papers/pagerank/

PS : if you have site with many pages and many inbound links. its very complex algo to determine PR. let google do it :D

[joeychgo]

I think it has to do with the number of outgoing links. People have continuously and ferociously argued with me that outgoing links on a page will not affect that pages pagerank, but I disagree.


One of my problems with that is that would mean Google penalizes websites for selling advertising. I dont mean selling links - but selling actual advertising space.

[Freddy81]

Totally agree. I have a product page - PR7. Online help - PR6. Online help folder - PR5. Single help page - PR4.

Why this happens? I beleive it is based on "priority". When I created Google Sitemap, I noticed that "priority" of /index.htm is 1.0, and "priority" of ../../index.htm is 0.5. That's it.

[Dakait]

Totally agree. I have a product page - PR7. Online help - PR6. Online help folder - PR5. Single help page - PR4.

Why this happens? I beleive it is based on "priority". When I created Google Sitemap, I noticed that "priority" of /index.htm is 1.0, and "priority" of ../../index.htm is 0.5. That's it.

Agree...priority matters, as home page have high PR than inner pages (more than 99% of times).

I have many sites...with Complete Flash on home page (with less back links than inner once) and very resourceful inner pages, yet home page have high PR.

[iBold]

PS : if you have site with many pages and many inbound links. its very complex algo to determine PR. let google do it :D

I think thats the smartest thing I've heard anyone say in a long time..sooo much speculation..

[mdvaldosta]

Lol, no the priority you place on in your xml sitemap has no affect on pagerank at all.

I have a product page - PR7. Online help - PR6. Online help folder - PR5. Single help page - PR4.

Put a link from your "product page" to your "Single help page" and your single help page will probably jump to a PR6. It'll all about your linking structure, that's why clickable sitemaps are good for spreading out PR.

[Freddy81]

Lol, no the priority you place on in your xml sitemap has no affect on pagerank at all.


Where do you know this from? Probably Big G told you that? ;)

[ShandyKing]

Observation with one OsCommerce site:

The Home Page has a PR of 6.

Links to the actual product_info page is 3 links deep (due to category). The three links all retain PR of 5. Then the product page has no PR at all.

[mdvaldosta]

Where do you know this from? Probably Big G told you that? ;)

No, my buddy G doesn't give away secrets. It's no secret though that the only purpose of a sitemap is to help the search engines find your web pages. Your linking structure determines your pagerank, and nothing else. Not content, not keywords, not sitemaps... only links.

[searchguru]

PageRank is basically now useless. What is more important is where your site appears in the SERPs.

[Dakait]

PageRank is basically now useless. What is more important is where your site appears in the SERPs.

SERPs depends on PR too, so it is important.

[hulkster]

I wonder Shawn if perhaps the "?f=14" (which suggests dynamic content) is handled different than a URL which (at least appears) static such as faq.html

But puzzle me this - I just noticed a link to http://www.digitalpoint.com/tools/donate_old.html at the bottom of that same page ... and when I fired up IE to check pagerank, I got nothing. I don't see a nofollow there ... so why the heck is that page penalized and/or worth nada?

P.S. Maybe I haven't noticed it, but did you recently change your avatar from the DP logo?

[kensmithkw]

One of my problems with that is that would mean Google penalizes websites for selling advertising. I dont mean selling links - but selling actual advertising space.

Matt Cutts has posted on his blog about this. you should use the no follow tag if it's just advertising. Take a look here (http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/text-links-and-pagerank/) for the full post.

"What if a site wants to buy links purely for visitor click traffic, to build buzz, or to support another site? In that situation, I would use the rel=”nofollow” attribute. The nofollow tag allows a site to add a link that abstains from being an editorial vote. Using nofollow is a safe way to buy links, because it’s a machine-readable way to specify that a link doesn’t have to be counted as a vote by a search engine."

[minstrel]

The more outgoing links on a page, the less pagerank that gets passed to them.
True.

Not only do you affect those pages pagerank, but they also drain yours.
Not true.

Google's algorithym makes note that the average page on the internet has to have a PR1. Think about it, if this is the case than how could you possibly give pagerank to something without taking it from somewhere else? Conclusion? The more outgoing links on a page, the less PR that can pass to those pages and the more PR to get drained from that page.
No. The "finite amount of PR" does not refer to your site - it refers to the sum of all sites in Google's index. You see the effect of this as the size of the index increases and it gets more and more difficult to reach PR5, PR6, PR7, and etc. You do NOT see this effect as outgoing links "draining" or "leaking" PR from pages on your site.

[topsites]

No but it reminds me I need to go update my site's map which hasn't been touched in about a year, lol !

[mdvaldosta]

Minstrel, think alittle more about what your saying. How could one page gain PR without another page losing it = all while keeping the average PR in googles cache PR1? Whether internal or external linking it doesn't matter.

Thats the fundamental basis of my claim. Once again so far nobody has agreed with me, but seriously think about.

[minstrel]

I have, mdvaldosta. How many billion pages are in Google's index? The theoretical possibility of PR leak is one thing. The practical, in reality effect for any single web page or web site is nil.

[mdvaldosta]

But there has to be a balance. If every web page gave PR to other web pages and it never cost them PR, then the average pagerank on Google would continue to increase and increase... which is contradictory keeping the average PR on the web at 1.

I'm going to do a controlled exercise. I'll get back with you after the next PR update.

[minstrel]

Every time a planet or star or any other body moves or changes in the universe, it affects the movement or placement or some other aspect of some other body. But there are billions upon billions of bodies in the universe and one of them impacting another in some corner of the universe will not be noticed by the vast majority of other bodies in the universe.

On a smaller scale that's what I'm talking about. Google is huge. Any theoretical impact of the kind of thing you are talking about will not have a measurable impact on your site or mine or this forum, etc. I don't think there is a controlled study that could demomnstrate such an effect as you describe (although by all means give it a shot). For all practical real-world purposes, PR leak does not exist.

[mdvaldosta]

I belive it exists, and it exists on a factor of eight. I intent to show, by creating link page that nobody will notice and will get no other backlinks.

I intend to show that the control page (zero outgoing links) will have a PR of 5. Then I will have pages with 8, 32, 64, and 128 outgoing links. If I am correct, the the pages with the higher number of links will have lower pagerank. The page with 64 outgoing should have a pagerank approx 2 lower than the page with zero outbounds. The next step would be 512 but that's probably not spiderable, so I stopped at 128.

I'm also going to have a page with nothing but authority links, some people think linking OUT to high PR pages will help (not me), but at any rate.

The pages are almost done, I'll post the results after the next toolbar update.

[sachin410]

But there has to be a balance. If every web page gave PR to other web pages and it never cost them PR, then the average pagerank on Google would continue to increase and increase... which is contradictory keeping the average PR on the web at 1.



The average actual PR will definitely keep on increasing as more and more pages are created.

The PR that you see on your Google toolbar is the PR converted to log scale.

Google.com has PR of 10 right now. If more and more pages link to it, its PR will increase. Google will then have to adjust the BASE OF ITS LOG SCALE to accomodate all pages.

As someone pointed out, in future it will become more and more difficult to get higher PR (on the toolbar) - the sites which have the highest toolbar PRs right now, will keep getting more and more links and thus Google will have to shift the base in its algorithm higher....automatically pushing down toolbar PRs of existing pages.

Thus average toolbar PR may still not get affected.

[hulkster]

I belive it exists, and it exists on a factor of eight. I intent to show, by creating link page that nobody will notice and will get no other backlinks.

I intend to show that the control page (zero outgoing links) will have a PR of 5. Then I will have pages with 8, 32, 64, and 128 outgoing links. If I am correct, the the pages with the higher number of links will have lower pagerank. The page with 64 outgoing should have a pagerank approx 2 lower than the page with zero outbounds. The next step would be 512 but that's probably not spiderable, so I stopped at 128.

I'm also going to have a page with nothing but authority links, some people think linking OUT to high PR pages will help (not me), but at any rate.

The pages are almost done, I'll post the results after the next toolbar update.

Very simple but clever/effective test - looking forward to the results.
alek