What are your thoughts about gay marriage

[phpmx]

I am a straight and respect people's lifestyles.
The other night I went into a channel on IRC, a place I have been a part of for the last 9 years, we talk mostly about computers and coding and so on.
Last night someone brought up the subject of Gay marriage and it turned into a mayor issue. I would like to read your opinions.

[ImVickieB]

LOL I think this is going to turn out to be a flaming post here for sure... one of those topics that illicits STRONG emotions.

My POV on this issue is that it isn't my business what anyone else wants to do and who they want to do it with as long as it isn't harming anyone.

Regards,
Vickie

[phpmx]

Well, when i look up the dictionary the word "Marriage", it comes up with this:
1-The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
2- union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.
I feel that if 2 persons of the same sex want to be together legally, it should be granted, but not called a marriage. :eek:

[dazzlindonna]

I might as well chime in on this one. A little over a year ago, I and my same-sex partner had a beautiful wedding ceremony that was attended by all our friends and family, nearly all of whom are fairly conservative (some would say red-neck even) down-home people. None of these people had ever considered that they would ever attend such an event in their lives, but they all smiled and laughed and cried just as they would have at any straight wedding. Was it "legal"? Of course not, as our state certainly doesn't have such a law on the books. Do I care what anyone calls it? Nope. If people want to call it a civil union, that would be ok with me. The only thing I care about is having the ability to be the person who is allowed into my loved one's hospital room if she is sick or dying, and to make sure her wishes are carried out when necessary. These are the kinds of things that matter - not what something is labeled. We did have tons of legal paperwork drawn up and notarized before the ceremony, so in all matters of importance, we are "legal". The other things (like joint tax returns, etc.) would be nice, but not vital. I laugh when others say that legalizing same-sex marriage would be a threat to their own marriages. I'm fairly certain that my wedding didn't end up threatening anyone's marriage. We go on day to day living our lives as we always have - being the people we've always been - being loved by the straight people who've always loved us, and we haven't destroyed the world. Nevertheless, I don't worry about it either. For the last 30 or so years, I've been myself and haven't concerned myself with what others thought. I've taken care of the legal issues myself without having to need the government to do it for me, and without the consent of the majority. I live, I love, I respect, and I care. Legal or not - called whatever it wants to be called - our lives move on as before. Peace and love to all of you - no matter what opinions you have on the subject.

[disgust]

actually calling it a marriage, though, would have a huge impact on the general public's opinion of gay marriage. I mean, if they would've handled out "civil unions" but not marriage licenses for interracial couples, don't you think that's the government having a stance on something it really shouldn't have a stance on at all? it's the same deal with gay marriages really.

the government has a responsibility to stick up for minorities, even when it isn't the popular thing to do- when interracial marriages were legalized, it certainly wasn't publicly accepted much at all, but since it was, it actually helped to change attitudes about it.

you can probably guess my stance on it ;)

[mopacfan]

No way, no how. End of story. Civil unions, I can deal with. But marriage is between a man and a woman. I'm not religious, but that's just the way it's meant to be. Some things you don't screw with. The truth is, it should be handled by states only and is not something the federal government should be involved with, morally or legally.

[minstrel]

Saying "marriage is between a man and a woman because it's defined that way and/or that's the way it's always been" is a specious argument, in my opinion. Before Henry Ford, horsepower doubtless had a very different definition. Before the suffrage movement, a voter was by definition a man. Words are invented, become archaic, and change meaning all the time.

I don't really care one way or the other but at least be logical about it -- some days I think heterosexual marriage should be illegal too :eek:

[lorien1973]

I'll refrain from the old slippery slope argument; but it dilutes marriage as a concept in the long run. Since the gay marriage judgement from the courts, some legal experts are suggesting that polygamy is essentially legal now too. You open the door a crack, you open it a lot more. Okay, so I did the slippery slope argument.

Pro gay marriage argument is usually that you are being denied the same right as everyone else "to get married". this isn't correct. You are unable to marry your own sex, as am I. Your rights are no different than mine. Everyone is in the same ball field here, so its not the same as the suffrage movement or civil rights when 1 group had different rights than others.

some days I agree with minstrel. With divorce rate at 50% plus, why even bother with the concept at all anymore? heh.

[NewComputer]

hmmm, my religious convictions beg me to reply, but my business tells me otherwise. As most of you know, I am a Christian (don't hold it against me ;)) I am a very 'liberal' Christian as far as acceptance goes. Jesus was about love. I love everyone the same, but I do not approve or condone certain actions. Now, these are my opinions (but opinions that I deliver as what I believe is fact), I feel that had God created the world with gay men and female being a 'way of life' they would be able to continue that way of life naturally. Two gay men or two gay females cannot procreate naturally, and with that said, I believe that term marriage should be kept in context with that male/female procreation in mind.

DD, I respect your ability to see past the term or a necessity to change it. When you look at people trying to constantly change things, you have to wonder where it stops. Say that the term 'marriage' were to be rewritten to include homosexuals, what is to stop then a 45 year old male and his 13 year old male lover from 'getting married' and changing the rules. I know that I will get flamed over my views, but hopefully I have earned enough respect here to warrant otherwise. DD, I am very happy you are happy and I wish you continued happiness.... I just hope you find the Lord in your short time on earth :)

[NewComputer]

I'll refrain from the old slippery slope argument; but it dilutes marriage as a concept in the long run. Since the gay marriage judgement from the courts, some legal experts are suggesting that polygamy is essentially legal now too. You open the door a crack, you open it a lot more. Okay, so I did the slippery slope argument.

Pro gay marriage argument is usually that you are being denied the same right as everyone else "to get married". this isn't correct. You are unable to marry your own sex, as am I. Your rights are no different than mine. Everyone is in the same ball field here, so its not the same as the suffrage movement or civil rights when 1 group had different rights than others.

some days I agree with minstrel. With divorce rate at 50% plus, why even bother with the concept at all anymore? heh.

No sooner do I post, but I read your slippery slope. That is essentially what I was saying.

[disgust]

right- we all have the same rights in that sense. in the same sense that at one point time, we all had the right to marry someone (and only someone) of our own race. everyone had the same rights, but those rights granted weren't just and fair to begin with.

dazzlindonna: nice to know, and congrats :)

[angrylizard]

I dont think it is anyone's right to say that two people cannot be married. That taking YOUR personal morality and forcing it to be OTHER PEOPLE'S personal morality and then calling it a law. People need to understand that it's none of their business who wants to do this kind of thing. It doesn't affect you and if you feel it does, you have personal problems you should be a ddressing before you go trying to solve other people's "problems"

[quadcity]

I might as well chime in on this one. A little over a year ago, I and my same-sex partner had a beautiful wedding ceremony...
Congratulations, DD. I'm straight, but same-sex marriage has no effect on my life.

I agree with mopacfan about it being handled at the state rather than federal level.

[Such Great Heights]

I dont think it is anyone's right to say that two people cannot be married. That taking YOUR personal morality and forcing it to be OTHER PEOPLE'S personal morality and then calling it a law. People need to understand that it's none of their business who wants to do this kind of thing. It doesn't affect you and if you feel it does, you have personal problems you should be addressing before you go trying to solve other people's "problems"

I would have put it in a less "CAPS LOCKED" way, but I definitely understand how you feel. I would have wrote the same if I were feeling more brave.
I don't want people to jump back at me because of how I said something, just for what I say. If that makes sense.

So for now I'll just quote and agree wholeheartedly. GJ

[schlottke]

I don't have an opinion on this - but I do think its funny that Angry Lizard's Avatar is a Happy Banana.

[minstrel]

Yeah... doesn't look like an angry lizard at all to me...

[Michael]

Marriage is an alliance of two people, one of whom never remembers birthdays and the other never forgets them.

- Michael

[Trance-formation]

Congratulations, DD. I'm straight, but same-sex marriage has no effect on my life.

Aye congratulations:-)

I'm staright, married etc, but I reckon same-sex marriage would enhance my life, as well as that of my family and those around us. My sister and her partner would dearly love be recognised as a couple in the same way my wife and I are.

As for the dictionary definition of the word marriage, language changes and evolves

[Trance-formation]

actually calling it a marriage, though, would have a huge impact on the general public's opinion of gay marriage. I mean, if they would've handled out "civil unions" but not marriage licenses for interracial couples, don't you think that's the government having a stance on something it really shouldn't have a stance on at all? it's the same deal with gay marriages really.

Hey, nicely put!
:cool:

[Old Welsh Guy]

Do I chime in or not on such a contensious <sp> issue?

I think there are a couple of issues here. The first is with gay relationships, and the second is with marriage. I used to have a business with a business partner who was gay. Imagine the fun when I introduced (names changed) this is Burt, he is my partner, oh & this is steve, his partner :)

I have nothing against people who are gay, I DO have serious issues with 'the scene' as it promotes dreadful promiscuity, and behaviour. Some of my business partners gay friends were constantly trying to turn someone who was straight. I see this part of it as wrong. I honestly fail to see how you can truly love someone and be promiscuous and unfaithful at the same time, regardless of your sexual orientation, love is love, and if you love someone then you are faithful, if your not, then your kidding yourself that you love them IMO.

On the other hand, I have two very good friends who are gay, they live in a loving caring relationship, have done for 25 years, and although I disagree on religious grounds to a marriage in church. I see it absolutely wrong that they should not have the same legal rights as a different sex couple. Civil ceremony marriage out of church I have no problem with, as it is only a ceremony in law after all. A marriage in the eyes of god, in a church, I do have issues with, which I do not want to start quoting scripture over as religion and debate do not work online IMO.

Should two people who love each other be allowed to be recognised as a legal couple in the eyes of the law with the same rights as a different sex couple? ABSOLUTELY. Love is love, and commitment is commitment. In the Uk we have written and put in place recently something called a civil commitment ceremony. This allows two people who are not allowed to marry under current laws (due to the laws of sanguinity or others) to make a legal commitment that gives them the right that a husband and wife would have. However this allows a mother and daughter, brother and sister etc, in fact anyone who has a loving relationship and has dedicated their lives to the other person.

This law in the UK makes it equal. For example if I die, tracey does not have to worry about inheritance tax, as we are married. sasex prtner (if I had one) would immediately have to cope with inheritence tax. Pension rights would not transfer to my (if) same sex partner. This in my eyes is wrong.

And, as the previous poster pointed out, to be excluded from a hospital room by the family who do not want their family members love to be there due to purely selfish reasons HAS to be wrong.

So my answer is, same sex unions in law ? YES

Same sex marriage in church and in the eyes of God? NO

[Trance-formation]

Marriage is an alliance of two people, one of whom never remembers birthdays and the other never forgets them.


I heard the suggestion today that Roman Catholic priests should be required to get married just so they can have an advance taste of hell on earth:)

[Weirfire]

hmmm, my religious convictions beg me to reply, but my business tells me otherwise. As most of you know, I am a Christian (don't hold it against me ;)) I am a very 'liberal' Christian as far as acceptance goes. Jesus was about love. I love everyone the same, but I do not approve or condone certain actions. Now, these are my opinions (but opinions that I deliver as what I believe is fact), I feel that had God created the world with gay men and female being a 'way of life' they would be able to continue that way of life naturally. Two gay men or two gay females cannot procreate naturally, and with that said, I believe that term marriage should be kept in context with that male/female procreation in mind.

DD, I respect your ability to see past the term or a necessity to change it. When you look at people trying to constantly change things, you have to wonder where it stops. Say that the term 'marriage' were to be rewritten to include homosexuals, what is to stop then a 45 year old male and his 13 year old male lover from 'getting married' and changing the rules. I know that I will get flamed over my views, but hopefully I have earned enough respect here to warrant otherwise. DD, I am very happy you are happy and I wish you continued happiness.... I just hope you find the Lord in your short time on earth :)

I too am a christian and am obviously going to agree with you NC.

There are some very interesting posts in this thread and my opinion has been very much on the fence on this issue. There is one side to my opinion that is from the scriptures that says homosexuality is wrong, but it also states that everybody has sinned. Then there is a side where I have gay friends and while I would feel offended if they married gay people in my church I think it is pretty harsh to not let them have certain legal rights such as DD stated i.e. letting them visit in hospitals. Marriage to me is a sacred event where a man and a woman come before God to commit their lives together.

[Colleen]

I am not for or against it. I think people should be able to marry who they love, but I can see it goes against some beliefs, laws, etc.

[Chiara]

Those who say some nebulous power called "God" cannot possibly condone same-sex relationships are obviously not aware that our closest genetic relatives, the Bonobo chimps, have a lot of gay sex, both male and female. Oh wait, I forgot, Christians don't believe God has anything to do with animals - he only created humans because we are somehow "special." That's why so many Christians spend their free time hunting -- the ten commandments don't apply to "animals." Same goes for homosexuality. Those monkeys do it and it's perfectly natural, but for "God's children" it is blasphemy.

I am not gay but this whole "it shouldn't be defined as marriage" is so absurd to me. Americans are entirely too hung up on words. It's so typical for us to say, "Well, we can pretend it doesn't really exist if we don't use the actual word."

Maybe it's "God's" natural way of thinning an increasingly overcrowded population. Maybe not everyone has to procreate to be a "worthwhile" member of society. So if a union between a man and a woman produces no children, should that not be called a marriage?

[anthonycea]

Not much.

But it provides great story lines for SitCom's and provides a market for the television networks. What would Oprah and "The View" talk about otherwise?

Plus, if they help elect John Kerry and defeat the Bush family I could not care less if they get married.

Getting married is a business agreement in this world today, nothing more.

If you don't get legally married there is no need for pre-nup, nor do you have to worry about your partners bad credit or legal problems.

Marriage can be a real mess exactly because of the above.

Mergers always have legal issues to worry about.

[NewComputer]

Those who say some nebulous power called "God" cannot possibly condone same-sex relationships are obviously not aware that our closest genetic relatives, the Bonobo chimps, have a lot of gay sex, both male and female. Oh wait, I forgot, Christians don't believe God has anything to do with animals - he only created humans because we are somehow "special." That's why so many Christians spend their free time hunting -- the ten commandments don't apply to "animals." Same goes for homosexuality. Those monkeys do it and it's perfectly natural, but for "God's children" it is blasphemy.

I am not gay but this whole "it shouldn't be defined as marriage" is so absurd to me. Americans are entirely too hung up on words. It's so typical for us to say, "Well, we can pretend it doesn't really exist if we don't use the actual word."

Maybe it's "God's" natural way of thinning an increasingly overcrowded population. Maybe not everyone has to procreate to be a "worthwhile" member of society. So if a union between a man and a woman produces no children, should that not be called a marriage?

God did create the animals. So your statement is very much incorrect and stereotypical of your view of Christians. The 'word' issue is something called law. You need the 'words' and definitions of those words to keep the peace and society in place. What if all of a sudden societies opinion of the word speeding wanted to change. Speeding all of a sudden meant not doing over 40 miles an hour more of the posted speed limit. I know I am stretching but hopefully you get my point.

My wife and I will never have children. We both understand that we are not of the ilk to raise children. If we had them, we would be great parents (
:confused: ) but we are not the type of people to have and raise children.

Chiara, I just ask you to consider adults and children who are 'convinced' they are in love and why should we then get in their way from changing the word marriage. It is those words that is keeping that from happening and for good reason.

[mopacfan]

Saying "marriage is between a man and a woman because it's defined that way and/or that's the way it's always been" is a specious argument
It's not an argument, Minstrel, I'm just stating my personal feelings. I don't expect my emotional reaction to sway anyone on either side. I just feel very strongly about the subject and made my opinions known. In case you hadn't noticed, I'm kind of an opinionated kinda guy. ;)

[mopacfan]

I dont think it is anyone's right to say that two people cannot be married. That taking YOUR personal morality and forcing it to be OTHER PEOPLE'S personal morality and then calling it a law. People need to understand that it's none of their business who wants to do this kind of thing. It doesn't affect you and if you feel it does, you have personal problems you should be a ddressing before you go trying to solve other people's "problems"
I think you're off base on this one. After all, this is what makes or defines a society. An agreement between a group of people who collectively decide what is and what is not acceptable. Using your argument, I would say that I am offended by stop signs and because it's my personal morality and judgement, therefore I do not need to stop at any intersection where there there is a stop sign. Too bad for you if you happen to be crossing the intersection when I come along. Society has to have rules, those rules are agreed upon by the majority and the society then lives by those rules, however flawed or imperfect they may be.

[NewComputer]

Not much.

But it provides great story lines for SitCom's and provides a market for the television networks. What would Oprah and "The View" talk about otherwise?

Plus, if they help elect John Kerry and defeat the Bush family I could not care less if they get married.

Getting married is a business agreement in this world today, nothing more.

If you don't get legally married there is no need for pre-nup, nor do you have to worry about your partners bad credit or legal problems.

Marriage can be a real mess exactly because of the above.

Mergers always have legal issues to worry about.

Disagree strongly here AC, I married my life because I love her and want to spend the rest of my human existence with her. Anyone who has ever been in love or happily married knows what I am talking about. I will say this though, too many people get married for all the wrong reasons and I believe that is what leads to all the issues with divorce. People get pushed into it by society. You have been dating for HOW LONG??? When are you getting married? Then one party or the other has the seed planted and feels that is the right time. INCORRECT! Know your partner, know who they are what they are about etc... Take as much time as necessary. I met my perfect match, and she is cute to boot. Like beauty and the beast.... me at 6"5' and about 295lbs and her at 5"2 and about 100lbs.... I guess opposites to attract.

[Chiara]

All of the Christian holier-than-thou responses in this thread are exactly why this country is going down the tubes. Somebody said Christians believe God created animals, too -- yeah, you believe he created them so you could eat them. Isn't that right? I've heard so many Christians say that animals can't go to heaven because only humans have that special right.

Well, thanks much, but I'd rather go wherever the animals are going.

[SEbasic]

All of the Christian holier-than-thou responses in this thread are exactly why this country is going down the tubes. Somebody said Christians believe God created animals, too -- yeah, you believe he created them so you could eat them. Isn't that right? I've heard so many Christians say that animals can't go to heaven because only humans have that special right.I'm not christian.

I never had a religious upbringing. But I have to say that I find your post rediculous.

I have read the posts by the

Christian holier-than-thouPeople, and I don't believe any of them to be unkind or unnecessarry. These are people's beliefs that you are talking about.

You have no right to condem someone for what they believe.

Personally I have no problem with Gay Marriage (or whatever you want to call it).

If two people love eachother, no matter what sex they might be, who am I to criticise.

But I do respect other people's beliefs and think that each person has the right to think what they want.

At the end of the day, gay marriage does not effect me, and even if it did - who am I to say that when two people love eachother that the fact they do can't be recognised.

Gay couples who love eachother and are in a long term relationship should have all the same rights as straight couples. Full stop.

[Trance-formation]

All of the Christian holier-than-thou responses in this thread are exactly why this country is going down the tubes.

I've got to side with SEBasics response here... I not a christian. But having read the responses of those who declare themselves as such I find them thoughtful and open to debate, which is refreshing. I may disagree with them, but they appear to be tolerant of that too.

There are few things that I find myself intolerant of, but intolerance is definately one of them.

[dazzlindonna]

I also agree with SEBasic and Trance-formation. And his excellent line is worth quoting...

There are few things that I find myself intolerant of, but intolerance is definately one of them.

[NewComputer]

All of the Christian holier-than-thou responses in this thread are exactly why this country is going down the tubes. Somebody said Christians believe God created animals, too -- yeah, you believe he created them so you could eat them. Isn't that right? I've heard so many Christians say that animals can't go to heaven because only humans have that special right.

Well, thanks much, but I'd rather go wherever the animals are going.

Again Chiara, you are stereotyping 'all Christians' with your pets don't go to heaven. I do believe that he created them to be food in some instances, but also they can be pets. As for where they go when they die, no idea, not my call. Does that make you feel better? Most Christians I know have many pets and do eat animals for food.

[Chiara]

I am just angry because people are saying gay marriage cannot be called "gay marriage" and that homosexuality is not natural. It drives me freakin bonkers because this country is at the mercy of a bunch of religious people like our current president. I feel like I'm being held hostage.

My whole point about the animals is that many Christians make a distinction between animals and humans. They also make a distinction between straights and gays. It's this old us vs. them mentality.

I'm sorry that so many of you think the "it shouldn't be called marriage" thing is okay. It's not.

[Chiara]

I do believe that he created them to be food in some instances, but also they can be pets.

Yes that's right, animals were created for the sole purpose of feeding humans. Nevermind that the Bible says we should be guardians of animals and we should have the fruit of the trees to eat. As usual, the church and organized religion corrupts everything, just like they have corrupted the teachings of Jesus so that now the Christian church is a hate-mongering organization.

[Chiara]

You have no right to condem someone for what they believe.




Oh yes I certainly do, when they try to pass laws based on their religious beliefs. Then it's war.

[NewComputer]

Yes that's right, animals were created for the sole purpose of feeding humans. Nevermind that the Bible says we should be guardians of animals and we should have the fruit of the trees to eat. As usual, the church and organized religion corrupts everything, just like they have corrupted the teachings of Jesus so that now the Christian church is a hate-mongering organization.

Are you even listening to yourself? You are making a complete fool of yourself. If you do not care, please carry on, but my exact comment that you quoted was

I do believe that he created them to be food in some instances, but also they can be pets. so the only corruption seems to be your one sided anti-christian view of society. I am happy to agree that animals can be pets, I loved my dog....

[NewComputer]

I am just angry because people are saying gay marriage cannot be called "gay marriage" and that homosexuality is not natural. It drives me freakin bonkers because this country is at the mercy of a bunch of religious people like our current president. I feel like I'm being held hostage.

My whole point about the animals is that many Christians make a distinction between animals and humans. They also make a distinction between straights and gays. It's this old us vs. them mentality.

I'm sorry that so many of you think the "it shouldn't be called marriage" thing is okay. It's not.

Do you see me getting angry that you feel it should be changed? No... so maybe someone such as yourself should look into anger management. You are saying you are being held hostage, yet it is you who wants to hold us hostage. We that agree with the current term marriage, you are trying to change and hold us hostage 'your way'. You are extremely hypocritical.

[stephfoster]

I really think gay couples should be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony. I can understand a church not getting involved; I don't expect churches to go against their beliefs.

As for marriages being a sacred event before God, as some have said, my sister and her boyfriend are doing a civil ceremony in December when they get married. Does it become less of a marriage because it does not happen in a church? I assure you, she is taking it quite seriously.

Yes, she is atheist. No, I am not.

[debunked]

I love my wife of 13 years and 6 kids later. (We also did the old fashioned - wait until married thing that seemed to shock the people around me at the time. The questions were quite amusing especially since I was 20 and her 19)

[FreeAgent]

I'm going to keep this short and simple. I say do whatever makes you happy.

[Chiara]

Do you see me getting angry that you feel it should be changed? No... so maybe someone such as yourself should look into anger management. You are saying you are being held hostage, yet it is you who wants to hold us hostage. We that agree with the current term marriage, you are trying to change and hold us hostage 'your way'. You are extremely hypocritical.

Yes, I am hypocritical and foolish and all those things you people like to call those who believe in civil rights. It was illegal for women to vote not too long ago and lots of men thought the suffragists were "silly and foolish." I am not biased against Christians per se - I am biased against anyone who tries to block the freedom of others. What the holy hell will it hurt you if two men get "married"? I mean, what the ... ? You can call me all the names you want, but the fact that you are even debating whether two people who love each other should have the same rights as you do is absolutely disgusting.

Sorry, I have no patience for people like you.

[Chiara]

I really think gay couples should be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony. I can understand a church not getting involved; I don't expect churches to go against their beliefs.


You're right, churches shouldn't be forced to go against their beliefs. So why should two men who love each other be forced against THEIR beliefs? They believe that being "married" would make them happier. Forget this civil union garbage. It's called equal rights.

But no ... the Christian church is holding this country hostage and all of us who don't agree with its silly rules and its horror at gay marriage and the right of a woman to control her own body ... well tough luck on us, right?

I have no problem with Christians practicing their religion. They should just keep it out of my face. Isn't that what they want the gays to do?

[Chiara]

Are you even listening to yourself? You are making a complete fool of yourself. If you do not care, please carry on, but my exact comment that you quoted was

so the only corruption seems to be your one sided anti-christian view of society. I am happy to agree that animals can be pets, I loved my dog....


You are the fool. I don't care what people think of my views, especially people like you, because you are blind to your own foolishness. It really doesn't matter, since I am not trying to make my views into laws that will limit people. I'm not trying to control people's bodies or love lives.

I don't have an anti-christian view of society. I have a pro-civil rights and pro-civil liberties view of society. This unfortunately usually means that I am against Christians because Christians like to control everything down to what birth control a person should or shouldn't use.

I think anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus is wonderful. Follow the corrupt teachings of the Church (not just Christian, but most organized religions) and you end up being like George W - to whom compassion means building "free speech zones", taking away women's rights, taking away gay rights, destroying the environment, promoting abstinence, making America a laughing stock in the world, etc etc.

Angry? Yeah, I'm angry because we're probably going to get four more years of this right-wing garbage. I will probably end up with Alzheimer's like my grandfather because some stupid shrub thinks stem cells are sacred and more important than human lives.

Christians always like to ask "What would Jesus do?"

Well, I seriously doubt he would create an atmosphere of intolerance and hate in the world.

Yeah, I'm done. It's futile.

[EnergyRay.com]

Scary -
http://www.lombergar.com/v4/datas/users/1-avatar.gif

[Chiara]

Scary -
http://www.lombergar.com/v4/datas/users/1-avatar.gif
http://www.lombergar.com/v4/datas/users/6-avatar.gif

If I'm what scared you, then I apologize. Frankly, the posts in this thread by others have scared the hell out of me. It's freaky to become obsessed over a word - "marriage."

[EnergyRay.com]

It would be nice to have a Poll for this thread with sex statistics such as: male, female, lesbian, guy, other etc .. ???
----------------------------------
If you ask me (as a man) I only feel comfortable about lesbian (female-to-female) couples/marriages... and NO NO NO NO to male-to-male..
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No to same sex-marriages for males BUT open door for females ....

http://www.lombergar.com/v4/images/wallpapers/sub_vesperum_thumbnail.jpg

[Chiara]

I'm a straight female. I love the idea of gay men "coupling." 85% of gay porn is sold to females.

[Colleen]

I'm a straight female. I love the idea of gay men "coupling." 85% of gay porn is sold to females.

I am a bisexual female, I don't mind seeing two women together but do not like watching two men.

I didn't know 85% of gay porn was sold to females, that is interesting.

[NewComputer]

Yes, I am hypocritical and foolish and all those things you people like to call those who believe in civil rights. It was illegal for women to vote not too long ago and lots of men thought the suffragists were "silly and foolish." I am not biased against Christians per se - I am biased against anyone who tries to block the freedom of others. What the holy hell will it hurt you if two men get "married"? I mean, what the ... ? You can call me all the names you want, but the fact that you are even debating whether two people who love each other should have the same rights as you do is absolutely disgusting.

Sorry, I have no patience for people like you.

What does it hurt you then if a 45 year old man and his 13 year old male lover (or female lover) want to be married? What about a man and his horse? You have to draw the lines somewhere, fortunately they have been drawn.

[NewComputer]

You are the fool. I don't care what people think of my views, especially people like you, because you are blind to your own foolishness. It really doesn't matter, since I am not trying to make my views into laws that will limit people. I'm not trying to control people's bodies or love lives.

I don't have an anti-christian view of society. I have a pro-civil rights and pro-civil liberties view of society. This unfortunately usually means that I am against Christians because Christians like to control everything down to what birth control a person should or shouldn't use.

I think anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus is wonderful. Follow the corrupt teachings of the Church (not just Christian, but most organized religions) and you end up being like George W - to whom compassion means building "free speech zones", taking away women's rights, taking away gay rights, destroying the environment, promoting abstinence, making America a laughing stock in the world, etc etc.

Angry? Yeah, I'm angry because we're probably going to get four more years of this right-wing garbage. I will probably end up with Alzheimer's like my grandfather because some stupid shrub thinks stem cells are sacred and more important than human lives.

Christians always like to ask "What would Jesus do?"

Well, I seriously doubt he would create an atmosphere of intolerance and hate in the world.

Yeah, I'm done. It's futile.

Sounds like someone pissed you off something fierce somewhere in your life and they were probably a Christian. I don't mind you voicing your opinion, but you sure are blanketing a big group of people with your statements. Do I believe in what GW is doing, NO. Do I believe in WWJD, YES. Everything in life is two choices. If when you come to those choices and say "what would Jesus do" and make your decision based on that, then you will be healthy and happy (like me :)). Would Jesus invade Iraq? NO. If you feel your country is so hard done by, you really should stop watching TV and visit some of the other countries of the World. Ask Shawn where he would rather live, Russia or here and I have a pretty good idea what his answer would be. I really do not like you lumping me in with GW. Do you want me to lump you in the David Duke? He just wanted to change the current laws to what he felt was right....

[Trance-formation]

What does it hurt you then if a 45 year old man and his 13 year old male lover (or female lover) want to be married? What about a man and his horse? You have to draw the lines somewhere, fortunately they have been drawn.

Something of a non-sequeteur comparing two consenting same-sex adults in a relationship to a relationship between an adult and a child. A cheap shot, to compare the morality of the two by association, that doesn't hold water.

I can't marry my toaster either. Irelevant.

[NewComputer]

Something of a non-sequeteur comparing two consenting same-sex adults in a relationship to a relationship between an adult and a child. A cheap shot, to compare the morality of the two by association, that doesn't hold water.

I can't marry my toaster either. Irelevant.

Disagree, many people are in love at 13. Who is to say whether these two are consenting or not. I have seen on talk shows where they were, that is the sad reality.

You are not going to please everyone all the time, that is why the laws are created.

[Trance-formation]

Disagree, many people are in love at 13. Who is to say whether these two are consenting or not. I have seen on talk shows where they were, that is the sad reality.

And the law, in those cases, recognises the need to protect the child, and the responsibility of the adult to do so. There is no comparison.

You are not going to please everyone all the time, that is why the laws are created.

And I agree the law is the law, and breaking the law has consequences. But arguing against a law that many percieve is unjust has a long and accepted history :)

[NewComputer]

And the law, in those cases, recognises the need to protect the child, and the responsibility of the adult to do so. There is no comparison.



And I agree the law is the law, and breaking the law has consequences. But arguing against a law that many percieve is unjust has a long and accepted history :)

I would say the law also protects the sanctity of marriage as well, between a man and woman.

You are right, revolution against laws has been going on for thousands of years. It is the giving in to this one and then that one that will bring society to its knees. We are in an 'uber' sensitive era. We just need to make sure that the laws are being kept to protect the masses.

[Trance-formation]

I would say the law also protects the sanctity of marriage as well, between a man and woman.

We are going to have to agree to differ in some areas, here. To me marriage is indeed a spiritual union, but not being a christian, I have no difficulty with the idea of a spiritual union between same sex partners. The sanctity of my marriage is in no way altered by recognising the sanctity of the the relationship between same sex partners.

With reference to your previous post, and as a devils advocate :D , how old was Sara when she married Abraham?

[Old Welsh Guy]

I sure am sorry to have been too busy to chime in again.

I am a christian, but I would like to state this as my opinion, it is religion that causes wars, it is religion that causes conflict, and it is religion that causes many of the intolerances in this world. The problem is that many have lost sight of the fact that 'faith' and 'religion' are two totally different things Faith is beleiving in something, religion is conforming to a set of rules.

Chiara, I have stated that I am religious (a Christian to be precise) but my faith in God, my personal thoughts on the law, and my Sense of what is right and socially acceptable should not all be bundled into my 'Christian Opressor' bag. They are totally different elements of my being. I totally disagree with hunting a fox with a pack of dogs. This has absolutely nothing to do with my religious beliefs, it is simply that I see hunting in this manner in this day and age, and causing so much suffereing to an animal for fun as morally wrong.

I am not intolerant of gays, Hell I have posted that I had a business with a gay chap. I am against the gay scene, but then again I am against all forms on infidelity, again, nothing to do with my being a Christian. (although this is part of the teachings.

I am as against non Christians getting married in a church as I am gays getting married in church. Many people have Christening ceremonies in church, and openly make a vow to bring their kids up in the ways of the scriptures. Most people visit church for weddings and funerals, and no other reason, yet they want to use the church to get married in.

We have many issues here, the first is legality, and like it or not, many of these laws are based upon what was deemed to have been right and acceptable at the time they were made.

The second issue is what is acceptable and what is not.

There are also a host of others, one of which you throw out as being freedom of speach and civil rights. A church is a place that has a set of rules, if you go into a church, then you should, out of HUMAN DECENCY, respect the values held within that church. Exactly the same as you would respect your parents house, or that of a favourite member of your family.

Many churches approve of having a 'blessing' ceremony of same sex, others do not. My point is that while you scream 'human rights' who's? Surely people have the right to tell others how to behave in their own house? We can not scream human rights when we are in a place that has its own values. This is the issue of respect and is a totally different issue. My point being that you would not strip off all your clothes and dance naked at your grandmothers 75th birthday, in her house if you knew it would offend your grandmother. We should have respect and tolerance of each other that is separate from, but takes into considertion the laws of the land.

You say about 'words' being the problem, I agree here is the legal definition of Marriage.
marriage is the legal union of a man and woman as a husband and wife. Until the wording of the legal definition of 'marriage' is changed, it would be technically ilegal to call the ceremony of same sex, a marriage.

The issue of dogs going to heaven etc is a silly one, and we will end up quoting scripture which some will accept, and the ultimate defence of some wil be that they do not believe in it anyhow so it don't matter.

I am a scientist, and I have had many 'heated' discussions about the creation of the earth. That however is a far deeper discussion than this, as we have to consider what was meant by a 'day' how long? exact definitions etc? We can hardly argue against evolution, as there is scientific proof. But as I say, that is an argument for another day.

IMO people who say 'you people' weaken thier own argument. We should not generalise, and certainly no matter how strongly we feel, we should try to think about what we say before we say it.

As my old sensai said about keeping our temper under control with regard a competition. "Once you lose it, you've lost it"

[Old Welsh Guy]

TF It pleases me to hear you use words like sanctity, as IMO that is what it is all about. I am fortunate to love my wife, and believe me I know I love her as my whole outlook on life has changed since falling in love. I grew up on a rough housing estate where you did what you did and whatever you did was ok, the only people who had the right to question what you did were those able to physically shout you down.

I grew up knowing what was right and wrong, but not giving a hoot about it. I have done things in the past that would shock some that know me now, but that is past, and I truly believe that no experience in life, no matter how painfull, is wasted, provided we learn from it!

Sanctity is a great word, as it harks back to my 'faith' point. I have faith in the fact that my wife feels the same way about me as I feel about her. I have faith in her love to believe that when she goes out without me she is going to be faithfull. When you love someone like that, there is no need to have a set of rules, even though you vow to 'forsake all others' it is NOT the set of rules that stops me, it is not the legality of marriage, it is the fact that I respect the sanctity of our relationship.

I have a gay couple as friends, and they have been together for almost 30 years. Their love for each other is no less strong than that which my wife and I share. I see thier love as no different to that which I feel. Love is love.

[NewComputer]

here, here OWG. Very well put. Eloquent and precise. I have one question though, do you accept marriage between homosexuals outside of the church and using the 'title' of marriage? I believe that they would have a union, but find the term marriage should be saved for a man and a woman.

[smindsrt]

Don't we have enough going on in all of our lives, why must we get involved in other peoples?

So what if people of the same sex want to get married. As a country we have deeper issues than gay marriage. If we took the energy focused against gay marriage then focused it on more important issues then we might actually get some crap done in this country. (oh, Canada too)

How about....

Terrorism
Economy
Medicare
Social Security

MY2 Cents

PS. I'm not gay... I'm married, two kids and republician

[EnergyRay.com]

Don't we have enough going on in all of our lives, why must we get involved in other peoples?

So what if people of the same sex want to get married. As a country we have deeper issues than gay marriage. If we took the energy focused against gay marriage then focused it on more important issues then we might actually get some crap done in this country. (oh, Canada too)

How about....

Terrorism
Economy
Medicare
Social Security

MY2 Cents

PS. I'm not gay... I'm married, two kids and republician
is it true that all republicans are mostly gay ??

[smindsrt]

is it true that all republicans are mostly gay ??

I think just the opposite, thats why I made a comment about it. Diversity.

[stephfoster]

You're right, churches shouldn't be forced to go against their beliefs. So why should two men who love each other be forced against THEIR beliefs? They believe that being "married" would make them happier. Forget this civil union garbage. It's called equal rights.

But no ... the Christian church is holding this country hostage and all of us who don't agree with its silly rules and its horror at gay marriage and the right of a woman to control her own body ... well tough luck on us, right?

I have no problem with Christians practicing their religion. They should just keep it out of my face. Isn't that what they want the gays to do?

I never said a word about calling it a civil union. I said it would be considered a civil ceremony, just as my sister's and her fiancee's will be. They are still getting married, and that was my point. A civil ceremony doesn't make it any less of a wedding, marriage or whatever you care to call it.

[jebby]

In order to understand this debate, I think it’s important to recognize that the real underlying issue is the belief that homosexuality is wrong and sinful. Within Christian circles, the Bible is cited as the authority on this. Specifically, Leviticus clearly states that homosexuality is wrong, as does Paul in the New Testament writings. The problem with this is that few people follow any of the other edicts found in Leviticus (like the one that says you can’t wear clothing made from different materials). Same thing goes with Paul’s letters. Most Christians today accept women in leadership positions in the Church and disagree with Paul on slavery.

Given this fact, let’s just admit that the difference is in the culture. Christianity is inherently more traditional. That is why Christianity is on a bit of delay compared to the rest of society. This is the case, generally, when it comes to equality rights of any kind. The majority of Christians opposed every step forward when it came to rights and progress (slavery, women’s rights, and science). While this is what the majority of Christians were doing, more often than not, it was a Christian leading the way on making positive changes (although such people were usually persecuted). Individuals like this are those who recognize that many of the things to do with Christianity are cultural but that the true message of Christianity is one of grace, compassion and love.

Right now I think that Christians feel that they are fighting a loosing battle against a culture that is going down the tubes. Rather than spending all this time and effort reactively pointing out what is wrong with society, Christians should reposition themselves as proactive agents of positive change. Jesus spent his time with the oppressed of society, helping and encouraging them. If we are truly concerned about what is wrong with the world, here is a good place to start changing it.

[mohamad1983]

well would u like to get my openion...i think it will be little hard on u after i have read what u have written...anyways i think that gays should be punished coz they r gays, since that they r on the wrong method of life and they r abusing there instincts...so i think that this kind of people gays and lesbs should be punished harmly even though by execution... :eek:

[dazzlindonna]

so i should be executed, eh? i'm pretty sure i'd be missed. :) but then again, i'd no longer have to pay bills. LOL. geez...whatever....

[Old Welsh Guy]

NewComputer- I have one question though, do you accept marriage between homosexuals outside of the church and using the 'title' of marriage?

The legal meaning of marriage is between a man and a woman, so call it what you will, it will never in law be a marriage, unless the law is changed. I actually got maried in a civil ceremony, as Tracey my wife was not, at the time a Christian. I do not feel less married for it. Harking back to my gay friends, I do not think they are any less married than I am, I DO think it is wrong that a couple who have shown total commitment to each other, should be financially punished purely because of their sexuality. Thankfully in the Uk with the new civil ceremonies that come into force. Gay couples, can enjoy the same financial position as heterosexual couples.

I do have issues with homsexuality. But it it not my position to tell others outside of the church how to live their lives, I can only live by example, and profess my faith and hope others will make a favourable judgement about me.
I fail to see how the church can allow gay relationships within the church, especially when it goes against the teachings, and the core of what we believe. But that is another issue.

I have no problem with homosexuality outside of the church, that is not my concern, that is the rights of the individuals concerned to live their lives as they see fit. ' I will fight to the death for the right of someone to be wrong'. I do not ram my beliefs down the throat of someone, as I have respect for others. All I ask in return is the same respect.

MO1983, I presume that you are just winding us up, and even if you are not then you have the right to say it. I think we walk on dangerous ground though when we tell people how to live their lives, when it does not affect our own lives, and their actions are not breaking any laws. In that case I believe our friend here who spouted human rights is absolutely right. We do not have to abide by the rules of a club of which we are not members.

In reply to the person who quoted levicticus, from memory I believe it runs something like 'a man shall not lay with another man as it is an abonimation to the Lord' Nothing about Women there, so does that make female female relationships ok then? :) We have to be careful quoting scriptures, as they can be taken literally.

I totally disagree with making the core beliefs of any religion fit the lifestyle of the world in which we live. Sure anything that fails to understand, the world is in trouble, but it should not compromise beliefs in order to be more attractive. We have to understand, and accept it as something that is happening, but the fact is that anyone who breaks the rules of a club should not be allowed into the club.

It is like allowing a vegetrian to eat meat as everyone else is eating it, because they slice theirs extra thin, or only eat chicken, to still be classed as vegetarians.

I will fight to the death for the right of my brother to be wrong!

[disgust]

It would be nice to have a Poll for this thread with sex statistics such as: male, female, lesbian, guy, other etc .. ???
----------------------------------
If you ask me (as a man) I only feel comfortable about lesbian (female-to-female) couples/marriages... and NO NO NO NO to male-to-male..
----------------------------------
No to same sex-marriages for males BUT open door for females ....

http://www.lombergar.com/v4/images/wallpapers/sub_vesperum_thumbnail.jpg

why? and how old are you?

that's one of the most ridiculous statements I've heard in the thread so far, I think.

I'd be for the poll as well, though.

[Trance-formation]

LOL. geez...whatever....

aye... whatever. Funny how this sort of debate always pulls in the ineffectual wind up merchants ;)

[Trance-formation]

I will fight to the death for the right of my brother to be wrong!

There we differ (and not too much elsewhere that counts, methinks)... I will fight to the death for the right of my brother to disagree with me :) unless, of course, his disagreement requires my death, in which case I'll just fight :eek:

I agree with the religion thing, in the sense that if you adhere to it, then it should be adhered to. The difficulty with using (solely) the teachings of the bible, or any similar approach, to base one's morality on, is that the teachings are

not internally consistent (IMO)
already severely out of sorts with current society in places, sometimes for better, sometimes worse (again IMO))


My example of Sara marrying Abraham at a very young age was not entirely flippant. Could biblical practice from one of the fathers of the judeo-christian be used to justify what would be largely regarded as paedophilia in modern society?... I suspect such an idea would be anathema to the majority of practising christians. Social context does change. Sometimes for the common good, sometimes not, but hindsight is a wonderful gift. :)

I thank you, OWG, and New Computer, for some thoughtful and tolerant contributions to what has turned out to be a very interesting debate.

[SEbasic]

well would u like to get my openion...i think it will be little hard on u after i have read what u have written...anyways i think that gays should be punished coz they r gays, since that they r on the wrong method of life and they r abusing there instincts...so i think that this kind of people gays and lesbs should be punished harmly even though by execution...Wow... I would have thought that most people would have at least had a little sense to keep their facist views to themselves.

<edit> - removed an insult</edit>

[schlottke]

These type of thread will only lead to people on the forum not getting along.. lol, I can't see how it really helps the community?

[The Rev]

Aye, schlottke, I think you're right.

but perhaps if the problem is with the word and definition of "marriage" perhaps gov't ought to do away with all reference to the term marriage and use "civil union" instead? Straight, gay, if it's a civil union then would it matter as much?

[anthonycea]

Don't you guys think you are going a bit overboard? I hope you all do not brand each other from a thread topic that is being discussed by friends.

If some folks want to sing "I left may heart in San Francisco", let them sing their arses off.

That don't mean you or I have to go to the party.

Just reminded me, I am going to crank up the music box and jam to some Live Hendrix, Led Zeppelin and some Nazereth.

Now those are the songs I sing.

You guys be good to each other.

What do I think of Gay Relationships?

The human race could not go on if this is what love was about. It may be what sex is about, but can sex alone sustain the human race if it is woman on woman or man on man? Someone answer that one if you can?

I do not think anyone of us here were born as a result of a gay relationship.

You decide in your own mind if it is right and was meant to be a good thing as the creator created mankind.

Dig that, I am going to jam to some loud music and you guys settle this one.

I am over and out of this one :) That is my statement, you all can argue your arses off, I am done with this subject.

Godspeed folks.

[NewComputer]

Don't you guys thing you are going a bit overboard, I hope you all do not brand each other from a thread topic that is being discussed by friends.

If some folks want to sing "I left may heart in San Francisco", let them sing their arses off.

That don't mean you or I have to go to the party.

Just reminded me, I am going to crank up the music box and jam to some Live Hendrix, Led Zeppelin and some Nazereth.

Now those are the songs I sing.

You guys be good to each other.

What do I think of Gay Relationships?

The human race could not go on if this was what love was about.

I do not think anyone of us here were born as a result of a gay relationship.

You decide in your own mind if it is right and was meant to be a good thing as the creator created mankind.

Dig that, I am going to jam to some loud music and you guys settle this one.

I am over and out of this one :)

Just to add to this, I am going to apply the term 'naturally". Technically, Science and the donation of sperm could aid, but that would not be natural.

[Old Welsh Guy]

Well I congratulate the bulk of the people who contributed to this topic. It was a potentially explosive subject, but has been contributed to well. I really dont think I have anything to add, other than to say that , while not bible bashing, and in reply to the question about conflicting information on right and wrong re paedophillia etc. The bible says that we should submit to the will and laws of God, and also of the country in which we reside.

So pretty clear there then :)

Congratulations to almost everyone.

[jebby]

Just thought I'd throw in the fact that the ability to have children by natural means is not a requirement for getting married...

[NewComputer]

Well I congratulate the bulk of the people who contributed to this topic. It was a potentially explosive subject, but has been contributed to well. I really dont think I have anything to add, other than to say that , while not bible bashing, and in reply to the question about conflicting information on right and wrong re paedophillia etc. The bible says that we should submit to the will and laws of God, and also of the country in which we reside.

So pretty clear there then :)

Congratulations to almost everyone.

Absolutely, usually these types of threads do not end in a peaceful manner normally. Another testament (hehe) of how great this forum is.

[anthonycea]

Just thought I'd throw in the fact that the ability to have children by natural means is not a requirement for getting married...

Does anyone know that getting married is nothing more than a dammed legal agreement in the modern world?

In ancient days it was not so, then it was two people becoming one through a spiritual law to create a family unit.

Family means having a family (children) so that humans can reproduce.

Modern theory is simply a legal arrangement and a contract with the government more than the two folks getting married.

Where folks get this idea that two folks of the same sex could "get married" is completely false.

So Jebby, are you mixing up some kids in a test tube tonight?

The question is, can two men make babies without a woman, can you tell me if this is possible Jebby?

Also please answer this question, can two women make a baby without the help of a male member of the human race?

Can you let us know your solution to this problem?

Please do a Google or Yahoo search and let me know when you find the answer, also please post the links.

Sorry folks, I lied to you all and said I was done with this thread, can't win em all, can you, yes I said you can't win em all. I do win them all, RIGHT? :rolleyes:

[NewComputer]

Does anyone know that getting married is nothing more than a dammed legal agreement in the modern world?

Wrong, and now you have pissed off my wife... big mistake.... :)

[anthonycea]

Don't worry NC, when the old lady kicks you to the curb, I will get you a job on the construction crew.

We could use a guy to dig out the footings for the buildings, 295 lbs, damm son you could move a lot of dirt.

You should have never told the old lady about the legal contract, now she will get rid of you and take everything :D

[Chiara]

Sounds like someone pissed you off something fierce somewhere in your life and they were probably a Christian. I don't mind you voicing your opinion, but you sure are blanketing a big group of people with your statements. Do I believe in what GW is doing, NO. Do I believe in WWJD, YES. Everything in life is two choices. If when you come to those choices and say "what would Jesus do" and make your decision based on that, then you will be healthy and happy (like me :)). Would Jesus invade Iraq? NO. If you feel your country is so hard done by, you really should stop watching TV and visit some of the other countries of the World. Ask Shawn where he would rather live, Russia or here and I have a pretty good idea what his answer would be. I really do not like you lumping me in with GW. Do you want me to lump you in the David Duke? He just wanted to change the current laws to what he felt was right....

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but had to respond to this. Actually, I have lived in four different countries for extended periods. I've seen what the rest of the world is like. I think that America is the best country in the world because of my experiences living in Eastern Europe and Western Europe. This is why I am so worked up - because I have seen firsthand what life is like in other countries. I do not want my children to grow up in a world where there are free-speech zones and where they can't get birth control because the pharmacists have a "personal objection" to handing it out. Yeah, that is now happening in America - check out the news. Me stop watching TV? You don't even know me, but it's typical when someone is not using logic to make assumptions about somebody.

Guess what? I'm not even a Democrat.

Now I would like to apologize to everybody for getting so upset. I just wish that one person in this thread who made the statement that homosexuality is not "natural" would please respond to my initial statement about the Bonobo apes, our closest genetic relative in the animal kingdom. Of course, that was totally ignored, which is why I went off on Christians and the way they view animals. Somehow that animal topic went off track.

Perhaps you don't believe the Bonobos are really multisexual? You can't deny facts. Now here's the thing: Bonobos use sexuality for much more than procreating.

This is the fundamental difference in the opinions here, I think. Some (not all) Christians seem to believe that sex should only be for procreating. It's not. For the Bonobos, it is a means of bonding and becoming part of a community.

Read here: http://www.dailycardinal.com/news/2004/02/12/News/Animal.Homosexuality.Adds.To.Gay.Rights.Debate-605235.shtml

The thing is - no Christian will answer the question about the Bonobo because it isn't in their script on what is and isn't accepted. It drives me nuts when people repeat things like parrots but don't look at logic and facts. Please, I really really want to know what a person who believes has that homosexuality is not natural has to say about this.

Fact is, it is natural for us to be sexual. Life is more complicated than sex=children and nothing more. Thank God.

[Chiara]

What does it hurt you then if a 45 year old man and his 13 year old male lover (or female lover) want to be married? What about a man and his horse? You have to draw the lines somewhere, fortunately they have been drawn.


No comment. I mean, are you serious?

[Chiara]

I didn't know 85% of gay porn was sold to females, that is interesting.

I was just kidding. :)

[NewComputer]

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but had to respond to this. Actually, I have lived in four different countries for extended periods. I've seen what the rest of the world is like. I think that America is the best country in the world because of my experiences living in Eastern Europe and Western Europe. This is why I am so worked up - because I have seen firsthand what life is like in other countries. I do not want my children to grow up in a world where there are free-speech zones and where they can't get birth control because the pharmacists have a "personal objection" to handing it out. Yeah, that is now happening in America - check out the news. Me stop watching TV? You don't even know me, but it's typical when someone is not using logic to make assumptions about somebody.

Guess what? I'm not even a Democrat.

Now I would like to apologize to everybody for getting so upset. I just wish that one person in this thread who made the statement that homosexuality is not "natural" would please respond to my initial statement about the Bonobo apes, our closest genetic relative in the animal kingdom. Of course, that was totally ignored, which is why I went off on Christians and the way they view animals. Somehow that animal topic went off track.

Perhaps you don't believe the Bonobos are really multisexual? You can't deny facts. Now here's the thing: Bonobos use sexuality for much more than procreating.

This is the fundamental difference in the opinions here, I think. Some (not all) Christians seem to believe that sex should only be for procreating. It's not. For the Bonobos, it is a means of bonding and becoming part of a community.

Read here: http://www.dailycardinal.com/news/2004/02/12/News/Animal.Homosexuality.Adds.To.Gay.Rights.Debate-605235.shtml

The thing is - no Christian will answer the question about the Bonobo because it isn't in their script on what is and isn't accepted. It drives me nuts when people repeat things like parrots but don't look at logic and facts. Please, I really really want to know what a person who believes has that homosexuality is not natural has to say about this.

Fact is, it is natural for us to be sexual. Life is more complicated than sex=children and nothing more. Thank God.

Until I see a monkey turn into a human with my own eyes, people are my closest relative. If you want me to treat them like humans, then what they are doing is wrong to, according to the bible. Just because the monkeys do it, people should do it? Crazy..... You never hear a Christian say "well, the monkeys are doing it, lets do it too....." If that were the case I would be flinging my dung at AC all the live long day... :) Sorry for the sarcasm, but the real reason I did not respond is because I find the monkey into man idea totally insane.

If we really did develop from monkey's there would be more "in betweens". Right now, we have man and monkey. You can say it takes millions of years, but there would still be the in betweens happening.

I find it sad that people would be more content in believing that we came from other animals than a higher being creating us. I apologize to you Chiara if I offended you in anyway.

[jebby]

Does anyone know that getting married is nothing more than a dammed legal agreement in the modern world?

In ancient days it was not so, then it was two people becoming one through a spiritual law to create a family unit.

I'm no historian, but I think this generalization may be a little inaccurate. From what I understand, for many eras in human history, love was not a requirement for marriage. Often it was a arranged by the parents without very much consent on the part of the future spouses. From what I hear, it hasn't been until quite recently that people began to marry for love. So I would say that marriages are less than simply a "damned legal agreement" in our modern world than they were in previous eras where they were an agreement between families (often involving a dowry or bride price).


Where folks get this idea that two folks of the same sex could "get married" is completely false.

So Jebby, are you mixing up some kids in a test tube tonight?

The question is, can two men make babies without a woman, can you tell me if this is possible Jebby?

Also please answer this question, can two women make a baby without the help of a male member of the human race?

Can you let us know your solution to this problem?

Please do a Google or Yahoo search and let me know when you find the answer, also please post the links.


I found this rant of your to be quite humorous and entertaining if not only tangentally related to the topic. :) I never suggested that same-sex couples can procreate. I'm not sure where you're getting that. Why would I even want to argue that given that we all agree that ability to procreate is not a condition for being allowed to marry?

[Colleen]

I'm no historian, but I think this generalization may be a little inaccurate. From what I understand, for many eras in human history, love was not a requirement for marriage. Often it was a arranged by the parents without very much consent on the part of the future spouses. From what I hear, it hasn't been until quite recently that people began to marry for love. So I would say that marriages are less than simply a "damned legal agreement" in our modern world than they were in previous eras where they were an agreement between families (often involving a dowry or bride price).



I found this rant of your to be quite humorous and entertaining if not only tangentally related to the topic. :) I never suggested that same-sex couples can procreate. I'm not sure where you're getting that. Why would I even want to argue that given that we all agree that ability to procreate is not a condition for being allowed to marry?

Anthony just needs to find himself a nice woman who will show him there is such a thing as love and that everything isn't about money. :(

[Chiara]

If we really did develop from monkey's there would be more "in betweens". Right now, we have man and monkey. You can say it takes millions of years, but there would still be the in betweens happening.

Well, I guess the 98.4% of DNA we share with them was just a coincidence, then?

I find it sad that people would be more content in believing that we came from other animals than a higher being creating us. I apologize to you Chiara if I offended you in anyway.

Why can't a higher being have created us and THEN we turned into animals? I hate to break it to you, but we are animals, like it or not.

What I find sad is that some Christians can't believe in any ideas that don't fit into their ideology. For example, most scientists agree that there is probably life on other planets. Most Christians say that's not possible because God wouldn't have created more than one planet full of people. I just don't understand it.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I have offended you, too. It's clear that we're just living in two different worlds and we would never be able to come to agreement about much. That's okay. Difference is good. :)

[NewComputer]

It's clear that we're just living in two different worlds and we would never be able to come to agreement about much. That's okay. Difference is good. :)

Not sure about that, I could do some PC work for you and we could agree on a price :)

[Chiara]

Not sure about that, I could do some PC work for you and we could agree on a price :)

Maybe, but I got the guy at CompUSA to fix my PC for free, just by batting my eyelashes. :p

[anthonycea]

Chiara, sounds like you and NC could end up on a date soon :rolleyes:

Think the old lady would let you fix her computer NC?

[JemimaPheonix]

:eek: Id see "What's the big fucken deal, bitch?" (South Park)

:D Gays are gay, so why can't they marry? They probably ante about to change, so wtf?

:p Another reason I'll support gay marrige is bc I'm gonna have one.

[sarahk]

Can't have a thread like this without me throwing in some good old NZ facts, after all this thread has seemed very American till now... time of day or what?

We're technically a secular country. We have some interesting situations where Christian priests lifting tapus and blessing the Maori Gods and think nothing of it.

We legalised homosexuality back in the '80s which meant that my sister in law (who I didn't know then) could live with her current partner without fear. 20 years later they're still together and more married than most!

It was odd though to say you can have a relationship but it's not as good as "ours". Who can judge the level of emotional connection between two people and say which is most valid. Those 2 with their 20 years versus Britney with her quickie wedding & annulment in Vegas. One might be legal in the USA and more "socially acceptable" but I know which has more substance.

Last year we introduced 2 new laws. 1 changed the laws about what was a de facto relationship and under some circumstances you don't even have to live together and you'll still be going 50/50 when you break up. The second law allowed civil union.

Both laws have increased the protection of gay couples. We've had horrific situations where one partner has been in a serious accident and the surviving partner hasn't been able to consent to medical care because they're not legally next of kin. Some have been restrained from visiting and in some cases family have removed all possessions after death because a will hadn't been drawn up.

There was something in the papers recently that civil unions haven't been very successful in the gay community, and I suspect that's because they're a watered down version of the real thing, and also because the first law has provided the protection previously only offered under marriage.

I totally "get" what people say about marriage being about procreation but I fail to see homosexuality as a bad thing and as such would prefer to see stable relationships ratified.

[IamNed]

:eek: Id see "What's the big fucken deal, bitch?" (South Park)

:D Gays are gay, so why can't they marry? They probably ante about to change, so wtf?

:p Another reason I'll support gay marrige is bc I'm gonna have one.

Gay marriage is a sin an an abomination. As a church member and after viewing Passions of the Christ I know that Jesus did not die for your sins so gays could get married. Gays have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to marriage.

[palespyder]

Gay marriage is a sin an an abomination.

If Jesus "Died for our sins", and homosexuality is a sin, then didn't Jesus die for that as well?

As a church member and after viewing Passions of the Christ I know that Jesus did not die for your sins so gays could get married. Gays have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to marriage.

Wow a Mel Gibson Movie did all that for ya huh? Did you even bother to read any of that book you put so much faith in or did you just decide quoting "The Lethal Weapon" would make us all bow before you for the true theologian that you apparently are?

[SEbasic]

Gay marriage is a sin an an abomination. As a church member and after viewing Passions of the Christ I know that Jesus did not die for your sins so gays could get married. Gays have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to marriage.I don't like you...

[Googles76]

You don't want to hear my opinion on this. I'm from the former Soviet Union.

[yfs1]

I don't like you...

Look at his sig outside this thread - He is trying to promote his Passion of the Christ site.

I don't believe he is actually religious (look at his past posts)..There was someone similar here a few months ago that preached their religious belief yet flamed people for no reason with obsenities, etc

Look at the source :rolleyes:

[yfs1]

You don't want to hear my opinion on this. I'm from the former Soviet Union.

I don't get what that means. Is there a connection between Russia and same sex marriages that I'm not aware of?

[Googles76]

I don't get what that means. Is there a connection between Russia and same sex marriages that I'm not aware of?

Yeh, we don't allow it:D

[Weirfire]

I don't like you...

That's a little bit harsh Oliver. lol

I mean he's entitled to his view surely. I am a christian as well and where I can't say I agree with gay marriage because it does say in black and white that homosexuality is a sin, I have to say that the way iamned comes across is not the most christian like.

As a christian I should not be pointing the finger and judging people but instead letting my own life be an example of my faith.

I would on the other hand be somewhat offended if a gay couple demanded to be married in my church.

[yfs1]

Yeh, we don't allow it:D

Well, most places don't right now but that doesn't mean you have to support that type of thinking, right.

If you do, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but it seems you are implying its wrong because the government says so.

Am I misinterpreting that?

[SEbasic]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, as am I.
Personally, I think it's somewhat small minded to say it's an abomination.
I don't think anyone should be attacked for the way they feel.

So what, if someone's gay they should just turn around and say
"Actually, it is wrong... Blimey, why didn't I realise this sooner? I think I'll be straight now" :rolleyes:

Anyway - I don't like getting involved in this type of conversation as I don't think it ever solves anything. :)

[Weirfire]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, as am I.
Personally, I think it's somewhat small minded to say it's an abomination.
I don't think anyone should be attacked for the way they feel.

So what, if someone's gay they should just turn around and say
"Actually, it is wrong... Blimey, why didn't I realise this sooner? I think I'll be straight now" :rolleyes:

Anyway - I don't like getting involved in this type of conversation as I don't think it ever solves anything. :)

Same here and I knew as soon as I saw iamneds post, I knew that there would be some angry people so thought I better come in and try to dissolve the situation.

Normally a random comment helps. Anyone?

[palespyder]

As a christian I should not be pointing the finger and judging people but instead letting my own life be an example of my faith.

And the truth shall set you free!!! Weirfire that is the best explanation of what I personally see Christianity SHOULD be. I am not Christian nor am I anti-Christian, hell everyone is entitled to religious freedom, it makes the world diverse. I do however believe if more people would take your advice this world would be a great place for our children to grow up.

[yfs1]

Normally a random comment helps. Anyone?

I watched "Animal House" and it made me realize that people that don't party are an abomination and sinners



hows that?

[Weirfire]

And the truth shall set you free!!! Weirfire that is the best explanation of what I personally see Christianity SHOULD be. I am not Christian nor am I anti-Christian, hell everyone is entitled to religious freedom, it makes the world diverse. I do however believe if more people would take your advice this world would be a great place for our children to grow up.

Thanks spyder :)

I'm still bracing myself for a lot of stick for airing my point of view as I know that I will still be in the minority.

[Weirfire]

I watched "Animal House" and it made me realize that people that don't party are an abomination and sinners



hows that?

nah it still conjures up the post that I am ned wrote. :mad: lol

How about tigers look funny wearing roller skates?

[palespyder]

My Random Comment:

Penguins dislike tacos with salsa. ;)

[yfs1]

Gays have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to marriage.

The issue I have with this is if you truly believe they do have civil rights like everyone, whats the issue with allowing civil marriages.

I doubt people are demanding they be recognized by the church...They are looking for them to be recognized by the state so they can have the same rights as others.

[SEbasic]

My Random Comment:

I really like my new trainers.

[palespyder]

"Gays have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to marriage."

Thats like saying "Blacks have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to freedom."

Or

"Women have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to vote or own property."

[yfs1]

I'm still bracing myself for a lot of stick for airing my point of view as I know that I will still be in the minority.

I wouldn't give you any...It is certainly your right. You don't have a hatred like some others seem to. Its that part that discounts their opinion when they are trying to claim the moral high ground given to them by God.

[yfs1]

Hey SE -

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/


lol :D :D :D


(By the way, when I go to that url it says I have been banned :eek: )

[Weirfire]

My Random Comment:

I really like my new trainers.

lol that actually made me laugh. :o I worry about me sometimes.

What kind of trainers are they?

[Weirfire]

"Gays have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to marriage."

Thats like saying "Blacks have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to freedom."

Or

"Women have civil rights like everyone else but that doesn't entitle them to vote or own property."

lol I think we can agree it was a weak argument that was just thrown in to make everyone mad.

[MELLA]

Whats the big deal?

Let homosexual people get married. They are not harming others by doing so. They should be entitled to the same rights as every other human being, and if they want to get married - who are we to stop them.

I don't believe at all that homosexuality is a sin. If I'm honest, when I was younger I used to think it was gross and have the attitude of 'God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve''... but then I grew up. People need to be a little more open minded.

[SEbasic]

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/Awesome - you guys are learning well ;) :DWhat kind of trainers are they?Super cool old-school style nikes...
http://www.burner.de/index.php?sxx_site=produkte.details.zoom&sxx_iid=3537&sxx_template=_blankfast2&sxx_telllink=product.details&sid=3233afdb394203 (I can't believe I actually found them)

I've bought 5 pairs of trainers over the last month...

I need to slow down a bit methinks.

[Weirfire]

:DSuper cool old-school style nikes...
http://www.burner.de/index.php?sxx_site=produkte.details.zoom&sxx_iid=3537&sxx_template=_blankfast2&sxx_telllink=product.details&sid=3233afdb394203 (I can't believe I actually found them)

I've bought 5 pairs of trainers over the last month...

I need to slow down a bit methinks.

Lol

Loving the style! ;)

[palespyder]

Super cool old-school style nikes...
http://www.burner.de/index.php?sxx_site=produkte.details.zoom&sxx_iid=3537&sxx_template=_blankfast2&sxx_telllink=product.details&sid=3233afdb394203 (I can't believe I actually found them)

I've bought 5 pairs of trainers over the last month...

I need to slow down a bit methinks.

Those shoes are hella cool ;) I am actually thinking about finding myself a pair.

[yfs1]

I've bought 5 pairs of trainers over the last month...
.
Its been a year and a half since I bought my current pair :eek:

I wear them until they literally fall off

[Weirfire]

Its been a year and a half since I bought my current pair :eek:

I wear them until they literally fall off

Sounds a bit like myself. I just see it as an added cost that could be spent on more links :o

[palespyder]

Sounds a bit like myself. I just see it as an added cost that could be spent on more links :o

Someone needs a life ;) j/k man.

[MELLA]

I know this is a topic about Gayness - but You guys are worse than girls, all sat here discussing shoes.

[SEbasic]

Those shoes are hella cool I am actually thinking about finding myself a pair.Make sure you lace them right - they look lame in that photo because they are too tight.I wear them until they literally fall offI used to do that, but I then made a decision that I HATE normal shoes (like work shoes) - so I'd rather have a pair of trainers for pretty much every occasion.

I have around 20 pairs of trainers and 1 pair of shoes (That cost less than any of the trainers)...
I even wair trainers to client meetings - They aren't hiring me for my dress sense afterall ;)I know this is a topic about Gayness - but You guys are worse than girls, all sat here discussing shoes.Nuttin' wrong with that ;)

[MELLA]

Someone needs a life ;) j/k man.

are you joking though? really?

No.

Get a life Stevo. Can't believe You'd rather look like a tramp just to get more links :p

[Weirfire]

I used to do that, but I then made a decision that I HATE normal shoes (like work shoes) - so I'd rather have a pair of trainers for pretty much every occasion.

I have around 20 pairs of trainers and 1 pair of shoes (That cost less than any of the trainers)...
I even wair trainers to client meetings - They aren't hiring me for my dress sense afterall ;)Nuttin' wrong with that ;)

Man that's the sort of habits that millionaires have.

Ever noticed that the really rich business men always have funny habits like I know this guy who needs to get the same type of fresh orange juice every time or he won't drink it.

What is your funny habit? Not got 1? Then you better get one. lol

[Weirfire]

are you joking though? really?

No.

Get a life Stevo. Can't believe You'd rather look like a tramp just to get more links :p

lol

Nah my wife makes sure I'm dressed properly. She buys me stuff every time she's out shopping :o

[Perrow]

Make sure you lace them right - they look lame in that photo because they are too tight.I used to do that, but I then made a decision that I HATE normal shoes (like work shoes) - so I'd rather have a pair of trainers for pretty much every occasion.

I have around 20 pairs of trainers and 1 pair of shoes (That cost less than any of the trainers)...
I even wair trainers to client meetings - They aren't hiring me for my dress sense afterall ;)Nuttin' wrong with that ;)
You should try the black dunlop "green flash" (http://www.frontier-i.com/ishop/758/shopscr2863.html) (paradox?). Perfect mix of trainers and shoes.

[yfs1]

so I'd rather have a pair of trainers for pretty much every occasion.

You are going at that the wrong way though...Who says you can't wear beat up trainers in any occasion

I don't even own any shoes either. 1 pair of trainers.

The only downside is if I step in a deep puddle I'm screwed because I don't have anything else to wear.

[Googles76]

'God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve''.

LMAO! Now thats funny! Haven't heard that one before

[SEbasic]

You should try the black dunlop "green flash" (paradox?). Perfect mix of trainers and shoes.I currently have 2 pairs of GreenFlash.
Once white with navy blue bits - laced, and another white pair with black bits but they are velcro...

I've never been a *huge* fan of Converse Allstars so GreenFlash are the natural alternative. :) ;)

I need a pair of black ones though...

[elkiwi]

Originally Posted by MELLA
'God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve''.

God made Adam and Eve...then what happened? Did they have a baby? What happen next...sorry I haven't read the bible and don't know how we all got here.

[yfs1]

God made Adam and Eve...then what happened? Did they have a baby? What happen next...sorry I haven't read the bible and don't know how we all got here.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0764552961.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

I tried to find Cliff Notes but apparantly they don't make them

[MELLA]

Well I haven't read any of the bible, but 'The Book Of Mella' states that ...After three weeks in the garden, God came to visit Eve. "How's things, Eve?" He asked. "It is all so beautiful, God," she replied. "The sunrises and sunsets are breathtaking, the smells, the sights, everything is wonderful but I just have this one problem. It's these three breasts you've given me. The middle one pushes the other two out and I am constantly knocking them with my arms, catching them on branches, snagging them on bushes, they're a real pain," reported Eve. "That's a fair point," replied God”, but it was my first shot at this, you know. I gave the animals what, six? So I just figured you'd need half, but I see that you are right. I'll fix that up right away!" and God reaches down and rips the middle breast right off, tossing it into the bushes.

Three weeks passed, and God once again visited Eve in the garden. "Well, Eve, how's my favorite creation?” He asked. "Just fantastic," she replied, "but for one small oversight on your part. You see, all the animals are paired off. The ewe has her ram, the cow has her bull, all the animals have a mate, except me. I feel so alone."

God thought for a moment. "You know, Eve, you're right. How could I have overlooked this! You do need a mate and I will immediately create Man from a part of you! Now, let's see ... where did I leave that useless tit' Then Adam came along...

http://www.azfunnypictures.com/images/adamandeve.jpg

and then they had mad kinky caveman sex all over the garden of eden.

[Hodgedup]

I don't even own any shoes either. 1 pair of trainers.


yfs1 do you live in a cave? I kind of picture this dirty hermit guy. 1 pair of shoes, no car, never drink a softdrink.

Yet you have electricity and know about games.

You're starting to kind of sound like Nintendo.

[Old Welsh Guy]

Well here is the Garden of Eden According to OWG.

god made Adam.. Adam was happy wandering around doing nothing eating sleeping farting (all the usual blokey stuff).

But Adam was kinda getting bored and sick of having to pick his own fruit etc so he had a word with god. Yo God dude (said Adam) sort me some shit out man I am bored stupid. God thought about this and said... I will make you a friend a partner someone who will idolise you do everything for you, satisfy your every desire... I will make her of you, so will need some of you to make it...

Adam said, sure, but how much of me do you need? God replied 'an arm and a leg'!

Adam replied no way Pedro <reference to uk humour there> Got anything cheaper ? said Adam. 'Well' Said god, I have something, she is quite nice though a little troublesome, she is called 'woman'. 'How much dude' asked Adam. 'A rib' replied God. 'Ok, make with the woman' said Adam, and the deal was done.

While he slept, God took the rib, and made EVE.

Adam woke up, opened his eyes and feasted on this 38DD beauty called woman. He stroked her soft skin, drowned in the dark pools of her eyes and was in love XXXXXX . Man did he feel sexy all over... WOW, he thought.. no DOUBLE Wow. Adam was elated, he was complete!!

Then the devil whispered in his ear. But imagine what you woulda got for an arm and a leg Son :D

[yfs1]

yfs1 do you live in a cave? I kind of picture this dirty hermit guy. 1 pair of shoes, no car, never drink a softdrink.

Yet you have electricity and know about games.

You're starting to kind of sound like Nintendo.

There are a few crucial points left out of that scenerio, believe you me ;)

[Hodgedup]

There are a few crucial points left out of that scenerio, believe you me ;)


:D I was just trying to make things easier so I left out the weird body part stuff, the virginity thing, the weirdness, lack of personal hygiene.

But if you remove all that though, you are very similar.

[elkiwi]

God comes down and sees Adam lying under a tree and says "Hey Ads...where's Eve."

Adam says, "oh she went down to the sea for a swim."

"Oh no! "says God, "We'll never get that smell off the fish!"