DMOZ Scandal of the YEAR

[popotalk]

Yes sir this piece right here says it all. The ROTTEN DMOZ even goes beyond being ROTTEN.

Editors should not hang up in Digital Point or be a Webmaster or else you are going to be FIRED.

Jim Noble, Orlady, Shadow575 and all you METAS I know you are reading here EVERYDAY and you know what I mean.

:mad::mad::mad:

[Gnet]

Lol i think im gonna get someone fired!
Gnet (http://dmoz.org/profiles/gnet.html) is an editor at dmoz :D

[fsmedia]

Yes sir this piece right here says it all. The ROTTEN DMOZ even goes beyond being ROTTEN.

Editors should not hang up in Digital Point or be a Webmaster or else you are going to be FIRED.

Jim Noble, Orlady, Shadow575 and all you METAS I know you are reading here EVERYDAY and you know what I mean.

:mad::mad::mad:

uhhh you haven't said WHY or WHAT....heh

[popotalk]

uhhh you haven't said WHY or WHAT....heh

This what makes it exciting. Will do ONCE the BIGGIES SHOWS UP. You havent seen them lately as they are BUSY FIRING GOOD PEOPLE in DMOZ. Now there are Internal Fighting.

[fsmedia]

This what makes it exciting. Will do ONCE the BIGGIES SHOWS UP. You havent seen them lately as they are BUSY FIRING GOOD PEOPLE in DMOZ. Now there are Internal Fighting.

heh...just sounds like this thread is getting dumber and dumber by the post...

[Ivan Bajlo]

uhhh you haven't said WHY or WHAT....heh

Ah you know these internal matters, if you are told you would have to be shot. :D

Anyway, there is plenty of work for hard working ex-DMOZ editors at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page), besides expanding articles there is standard DMOZ style work like helping with WikiProject Spam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Spam) and Wikipedia:Maintenance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Maintenance) etc.

[paidhosting]

Jim Noble, Orlady, Shadow575 and all you METAS I know you are reading here EVERYDAY and you know what I mean.

:mad::mad::mad:


Actually popo i think the person u talking about is cause that person cared to help out few folks at http://www.dmoz-resources.com/zone/ , it hurts me most and i feel responsible in a way and am sorry about that, skunky also resigned , so do not know what to do now, seems like metas are trying to turn dmoz into their source of income as they need to fire all the good people to continue with their dirty work of extorting money from users to list their sites on some good pr categories.

When will aol wake up is what i wonder.

[popotalk]

Please paidhosting not this time of idiotic post I'm dead serious and need some answers here. And I was not reffering to you as the most notorious ex-editor. Thats my title and NEVER take that away from me.

Now back on topic so firing an editor with 120,000 edits just because he/she hangs around at DP without even having the audacity to send a letter is absolute BULLCRAP. You guys already know that DMOZ is sinking and yet the only person that makes a GOOD PR with the outside world has been treated unfairly.

Actually popo i think the person u talking about is cause that person cared to help out few folks at http://www.dmoz-resources.com/zone/ , it hurts me most and i feel responsible in a way and am sorry about that, skunky also resigned , so do not know what to do now, seems like metas are trying to turn dmoz into their source of income as they need to fire all the good people to continue with their dirty work of extorting money from users to list their sites on some good pr categories.

When will aol wake up is what i wonder.

[nebuchadrezzar]

Thats my title and NEVER take that away from me.
You are of course joking. Apart from a handful of editors who visit this forum most would not have a clue who you are.
Now back on topic so firing an editor with 120,000 edits just because he/she hangs around at DP
Instead of your normal game of lies and deceit why don't you come out and explain what you are ranting about and what YOUR role was in the removal.

[popotalk]

You are of course joking. Apart from a handful of editors who visit this forum most would not have a clue who you are.

Instead of your normal game of lies and deceit why don't you come out and explain what you are ranting about and what YOUR role was in the removal.

And you are.... ? Netherlands Most Wanted ? :rolleyes:

Who's lying here Neb. When you lied to DP of who you are ? Ah - ah theres no role its your usual cover up. Funny you showed up now when there is something smelly showing a game of impressing and A Kissing the hierchy again. :eek:

Did I invite you ? Are you a META now. I specifically stated that. :rolleyes:

[mywebsearches]

That's why refer to DMOZ = The MONSTER

[gboisseau]

Well, it was fun while it lasted - but removing annie was the last straw. We just wanted to help out here at DP and Bunny's forum. I guess that is showing favoritism.

My heart is just not in it anymore. There are still a couple of hard working editors at the ODP, just now there is a couple (or more) less. :( It seems once you make meta, you forget everyone lower than you in the FOOD (http://dmoz.org/Business/Food_and_Related_Products/)chain and all of the hard work we did so you could get that promotion. You can now remove annie and myself from the meta "Names Thread" as we are no longer editors.

[paidhosting]

Well, it was fun while it lasted - but removing annie was the last straw. We just wanted to help out here at DP and Bunny's forum. I guess that is showing favoritism.


Anything that hurts RZ and their pockets is called Favoritism. So much for dmoz, and thanks skunky for helping out at my forums , hopefully u will not quit working there for me for free :D:p

[hmansfield]

I hate to extend this thread longer than it has to be, but , "What is a "Meta"? Is it a paid position?

[paidhosting]

I hate to extend this thread longer than it has to be, but , "What is a "Meta"? Is it a paid position?

Meta is a position after which you turn into evil beast :p u do not want to be a meta or go against a meta it will rein doom upon u... talking about meta is also unholy and those who do are cursed for life..:p

[gboisseau]

No, the only paid positions at the ODP are the staff of AOL. The hierarchy is as follows:

Staff - only paid employees - work for AOL/Netscape
Admins - administer the project, approve new metas, editalls
Metas - approve new editors / new categories
Editall/Catmv - can edit anywhere in the directory plus can move categories - annie and I were editall/catmvs
Editall - can edit anywhere in the directory - can not change the directory structure
Cateditall - can edit in an Root/Category ie: http://www.dmoz.org/Business/
Editor - can edit (a) specific category(s) ie: http://www.dmoz.org/Business/Food_and_Related_Products/Grains_and_Legumes/Tortillas/

[Ivan Bajlo]

Well, it was fun while it lasted - but removing annie was the last straw. We just wanted to help out here at DP and Bunny's forum. I guess that is showing favoritism.

You should have know better that such insolence would not be tolerated by holy meta inquisition. :rolleyes:

It seems once you make meta, you forget everyone lower than you in the FOOD (http://dmoz.org/Business/Food_and_Related_Products/)chain and all of the hard work we did so you could get that promotion.

Why would divine metas even bother with fates of mere mortals? DMOZ isn't Wikipedia! :D

[jinx]

Happy Trails to you. :-)

[helleborine]

My contribution was just 10% of Annie's and I am still hurt at the insult of being unfairly dismissed without so much of a word over a single listing of the kind for which a mistake was the most likely explanation.

I can only imagine what it must feel like. She must be totally devastated, after giving so much of herself, and through rough patches and ill-health. Annie is a kind, loving, generous person. She will always be a favorite cyber-acquaintance of mine, and to a great many others. Metas can whine that it was a hard decision all they want, that makes the decision no less cruel, and no less unfair.

I tip my hat to gboisseau for standing up for what's right. You are a gem. A rare gem.

[helleborine]

Happy Trails to you. :-)
Happy trails to you, too.

What does your comment mean, pray tell?

[minstrel]

Lol i think im gonna get someone fired!
Gnet (http://dmoz.org/profiles/gnet.html) is an editor at dmoz :D

Then perhaps this would be an excellent time for you to resign. Anyway who can stand next to the cesspool that is DMOZ after what they just did better stay the hell out of the way when it all comes crumbling down. You don't want to get hit by the tremendous explosion of excrement that comes out of the inner sanctum.

Those with any guts or principles will stand up now and protest loudly and clearly. The rest can rot in hell.

heh...just sounds like this thread is getting dumber and dumber by the post...

You post in ignorance. Don't bother.

Now back on topic so firing an editor with 120,000 edits just because he/she hangs around at DP without even having the audacity to send a letter is absolute BULLCRAP. You guys already know that DMOZ is sinking and yet the only person that makes a GOOD PR with the outside world has been treated unfairly.

If she wasn't the best ambassador that sorry organization (sic) ever had, she was certainly in the top 5. As much as I abhor DMOZ, they have sunk lower than even I imagined.

You are of course joking. Apart from a handful of editors who visit this forum most would not have a clue who you are. Instead of your normal game of lies and deceit why don't you come out and explain what you are ranting about and what YOUR role was in the removal.

Why don't you explain what YOUR role in this was, Neb? And if you didn't play an active role, what is YOUR response gping to be? Will you stand up and be counted or continue to suck ass in hopes you're not next?

Well, it was fun while it lasted - but removing annie was the last straw. We just wanted to help out here at DP and Bunny's forum. I guess that is showing favoritism. My heart is just not in it anymore. There are still a couple of hard working editors at the ODP, just now there is a couple (or more) less. :( It seems once you make meta, you forget everyone lower than you in the FOOD (http://dmoz.org/Business/Food_and_Related_Products/)chain and all of the hard work we did so you could get that promotion. You can now remove annie and myself from the meta "Names Thread" as we are no longer editors.

I misjudged you, gboisseau. You do have principles and a modicum of intelligence. Would that I could say the same about some of your colleagues.

Happy Trails to you. :-)

And what is that supposed to mean, jcand? You are happy about this?

I can only imagine what it must feel like. She must be totally devastated, after giving so much of herself, and through rough patches and ill-health. Annie is a kind, loving, generous person. She will always be a favorite cyber-acquaintance of mine, and to a great many others. Metas can whine that it was a hard decision all they want, that makes the decision no less cruel, and no less unfair.

I tip my hat to gboisseau for standing up for what's right. You are a gem. A rare gem.

I agree totally.

Happy trails to you, too.

What does your comment mean, pray tell?

I'd like an answer to that too. What about it, "jinx"?

[helleborine]

Happy Trails to you. :-)
Yes, it's quite rich, from a META-editor like jcand, to show up here under an assumed name, "jinx," and kick sand in the face of a stunned and heartbroken (I would guess) ex-editor with a sarcastic "Happy Trails" one liner. This has to be DMOZ's darkest hour.

Now, with a meta in disguise among us, I had to go and check out "jinx's" 2 previous posts.

Surprise! Another sarcastic one-liner back in January:
]Freewebspace - looks like a load of steaming hype there - Worlds Largest Directory, hah!

Surprise! Another sarcastic one-liner back in June 2006:
Wow - I don't understand how race is an issue.

So is that what some metas are doing in their spare time, jcand? Drop one-liners and leave the room. A bit cowardly if you ask me. Under the circumstances... really not a nice thing to do. It doesn't reflect well on the ODP.

[Ivan Bajlo]

So is that what some metas are doing in their spare time, jcand? Drop one-liners and leave the room. A bit cowardly if you ask me. Under the circumstances... really not a nice thing to do. It doesn't reflect well on the ODP.

Well any more posts and its bye-bye meta position few more and its removal, at lest they haven't started sending hitmans yet like Stained Glass Mafia. :D

[popotalk]

DMOZ Human Edited without Humanity. I think thats what it is.

So Jcand your the other one without the cohones to stand up :rolleyes: reminds me of another moron that sent me a PM last night and said he is claiming to be a META. Non other than Nebuchadrezzar the infamous soft ice licker. :D

[Ivan Bajlo]

DMOZ Human Edited without Humanity. I think thats what it is.

Hey, you maybe on to something... robozilla has become self-aware and has created bunch of fake metas and is removing all human editors! :eek:

That would explain the crash, when AOL technicians attempted to shut him down in panic he sent massive power surge that wiped out everyone in data centre and eliminated anyone who knows but also fried many servers and has taken him a while to restore full power once more! Now that we know we are all in danger!

So Jcand your the other one without the cohones to stand up :rolleyes: reminds me of another moron that sent me a PM last night and said he is claiming to be a META. Non other than Nebuchadrezzar the infamous soft ice licker. :D

Well there are probably only metas left in DMOZ, annie was probably one of few independent editor remaining which were still editing, now they only need to trigger 3 month removal switch to remove remaining editors since they most haven't done anything in months and it will leave only few meta editors in absolute control of all submissions to DMOZ. ;)

[helleborine]

Well any more posts and its bye-bye meta position few more and its removal, at lest they haven't started sending hitmans yet like Stained Glass Mafia. :D
Ivan, cowardice is not frowned upon in a meta-editor. I am sure that jcand's position is secure.

After all, he did write in the private editor forum (thank you for forwarding it to me) that "Removing an editor is indeed a difficult task. [...]But we also have the task of ensuring that abuse is addressed. It is painful, but necessary." So here he shows a little bit more guts, when it's time to saddle himself to the task of kicking others in the groin. "Abuse" he says; I am hardly surprised that jcand is painting poor annie with the same brush as all other ex-editors, that they are all corrupt scumbags that don't deserve a second chance, or an explanation. Of course, what better strategy but to keep everyone in the dark, leading them to believe that the offense has to be much, much worse than they can possibly imagine, paradoxically reinforcing the myth that the bar for dismissal is extremely high, while toeing the party line of zero tolerance.

[minstrel]

Yes, it's quite rich, from a META-editor like jcand, to show up here under an assumed name, "jinx," and kick sand in the face of a stunned and heartbroken (I would guess) ex-editor with a sarcastic "Happy Trails" one liner. This has to be DMOZ's darkest hour.

So is that what some metas are doing in their spare time, jcand? Drop one-liners and leave the room. A bit cowardly if you ask me. Under the circumstances... really not a nice thing to do. It doesn't reflect well on the ODP.

Pretty much. And the few who do have the guts to do more will no doubt experience the usual "quick justice" from DMOZ.

So Jcand your the other one without the cohones to stand up :rolleyes: reminds me of another moron that sent me a PM last night and said he is claiming to be a META. Non other than Nebuchadrezzar the infamous soft ice licker. :D

That's what it seems to take to remain in the inner sanctum. Apparently, as with many "organizations" (sic) where the primary goal is holding desperately on to perceived power, being a "licker" is the primary requisite.

Well there are probably only metas left in DMOZ, annie was probably one of few independent editor remaining which were still editing,

Indeed, One of the few with a combination of guts, principles, and honesty. I'm sure the adult editors detested her. One less obstacle, right, Orlady?

Ivan, cowardice is not frowned upon in a meta-editor. I am sure that jcand's position is secure.

After all, he did write in the private editor forum (thank you for forwarding it to me) that "Removing an editor is indeed a difficult task. [...]But we also have the task of ensuring that abuse is addressed. It is painful, but necessary." So here he shows a little bit more guts, when it's time to saddle himself to the task of kicking others in the groin. "Abuse" he says; I am hardly surprised that jcand is painting poor annie with the same brush as all other ex-editors, that they are all corrupt scumbags that don't deserve a second chance, or an explanation. Of course, what better strategy but to keep everyone in the dark, leading them to believe that the offense has to be much, much worse than they can possibly imagine, paradoxically reinforcing the myth that the bar for dismissal is extremely high, while toeing the party line of zero tolerance.

Precisely. The perfect DMOZ weasel. He has a bright future with the DMOZ club, I'm sure. :rolleyes:

It's not like i ever had a high opinion of DMOZ but even I am surprised at how low they have sunk. :mad:

[jinx]

Happy Trails to You. A song from Dale Evans. Gary and I worked hard together. So just hoping he would understand it. Happy trails to you, 'till we meet again.
Some trails are happy ones,
Others are blue.
It's the way you ride the trail that counts,
Here's a happy one for you.

[Valhalla]

This is better than an episode of Dallas!

[helleborine]

Happy Trails to You. A song from Dale Evans. Gary and I worked hard together. So just hoping he would understand it.
Spin it as the wind blows, it's still sarcastic, without an explanation, under these particular circumstances, and within this particular thread.

[minstrel]

The real joke here is the ongoing justification of lack of information about actions taken by metas and admins in the inner sanctum.

"If you knew the full details, you'd think differently. But of course, you can't know the full details because of our need to know policies and policies against disclosure..."

It's all such pathetic bullshit. Especially since their precious inner sanctum leaks like a cheap sieve.

Right Neb? :rolleyes:

[helleborine]

The more I think about it, the more certain I become that our meta-in-disguise little friend "jinx" was indeed sarcastic, since he wrote, in the DMOZ thread, "Removing an editor is indeed a difficult task. [...]But we also have the task of ensuring that abuse is addressed. It is painful, but necessary." No one should use the word "abuse" when referring to anything Annie has ever done. After writing this in what he believes to be a secret forum, he comes here, and, with all the subtlety of a drive by shooter, fires off a "happy trail." Nice.

I may be wrong about jinx's/jcand's intent; but I don't care. I have appointed myself judge, jury and executioner. Like the gang of bloodthirsty metas he belongs to. And since he had the privilege to come here, and try to defend himself, he's been given far more than all the ex-editors out there, that are no more culpable than Annie.

[jinx]

uroboros - as I mentioned, I was posting for skunky - not you. Period.

[minstrel]

uroboros - as I mentioned, I was posting for skunky - not you. Period.

That doesn't alter the fact that you picked a damn poor place to do that, though, does it?

I wonder what happened to that other weasel, Neb? He was lurking around here a little while ago sending nasty PMs. He probably had to scuttle back to DMOZ to report what's going on to the rest of the hatchet crew. :rolleyes:

[helleborine]

uroboros - as I mentioned, I was posting for skunky - not you. Period.
I know that you were addressing gboisseau, dear jcand, since you insist on using editor names, including mine though I have not used it in two years.

You see my dear, I am the kind of person that feels more outrage at wrongs done unto others, than wrongs done unto me. Including for instance other metas that send people PMs calling them "clueless moron" - very classy.

Happy Trails, jcand. Happy Trails to you.

[popotalk]

Lets see here one META qouted

lissa
item840 Sat 02 Jun 2007 2:41 Message item0
I wish editors would stop spending time at DP. I think its nonsense has cost us too many good editors.

Another one of my faorite
motsa
item857 Sun 03 Jun 2007 19:58 Message item0
Quote:
Surely it would have been more appropriate (and sensible, and empathetic, and less destructive of morale) to post "On indefinite medical leave" on compostannie's Request History if it was felt necessary to remove her editing permissions.
Since someone's health is never a part of why they are removed, why would lying on the removal note and saying that it was be appropriate?

Too many people who know nothing at all of the meta discussion think they know why compostannie was removed. The bottom line is that you don't. It's so easy to spout off about how evil and mean the metas and admins are when you know next to nothing about the circumstances surrounding this case. The idea that metas and admins should ignore abuse because the editor in question is popular is insane. When has that ever been how this project operated? And no meta or admin has posted on the subject of this removal with anything even close to glee so the fact that you imagine that where it doesn't exist says so much more about you and your attitude than it does about anyone else. I wonder why you stick around, if that's how you feel.

[gworld]

The more I think about it, the more certain I become that our meta-in-disguise little friend "jinx" was indeed sarcastic, since he wrote, in the DMOZ thread, "Removing an editor is indeed a difficult task. [...]But we also have the task of ensuring that abuse is addressed. It is painful, but necessary." No one should use the word "abuse" when referring to anything Annie has ever done. After writing this in what he believes to be a secret forum, he comes here, and, with all the subtlety of a drive by shooter, fires off a "happy trail." Nice.

I may be wrong about jinx's/jcand's intent; but I don't care. I have appointed myself judge, jury and executioner. Like the gang of bloodthirsty metas he belongs to. And since he had the privilege to come here, and try to defend himself, he's been given far more than all the ex-editors out there, that are no more culpable than Annie.

I wonder when they are going to deal with Admin and her commercial web sites? :rolleyes:

Annie is a good woman who argued many times with me about DMOZ corruption, it is sad that finally she had to be convinced about organizational corruption and abuse in DMOZ through her own removal.

[jinx]

Thank you.

[popotalk]

Another Favorite
crowbar
item16 Sat 02 Jun 2007 14:59 Message item0
I think this is kinda similar to regular editors having contact with submitters. I've got one RE dude now, trying to argue his case for having a second listing in Regional. I've ended that conversation. At some point you gotta pull the plug.
Getting any 5 editors to agree on anything is pretty darn much a miracle. Getting 5 metas agreeing on a removal has to mean there more than just a little smoke, there's probably a regular ole weiner roast goin with lots of fire.
I don't think metas want to lose any editors, especially experienced ones, so it's gotta be pretty plain that there's a fox in the henhouse when they make a decision. Not much need to talk to the fox when he's got a chicken in his mouth.

[gworld]

Another Favorite

The 5 Metas actually can be 1 or 2 Metas. I also strongly suspect an Admin and a Meta are the same person. ;)

[helleborine]

It's so easy to spout off about how evil and mean the metas and admins are when you know next to nothing about the circumstances surrounding this case.
Getting 5 metas agreeing on a removal has to mean there more than just a little smoke, there's probably a regular ole weiner roast goin with lots of fire.[...]Not much need to talk to the fox when he's got a chicken in his mouth.

Excuse me? Everyone knows what this particular case is all about. Everyone. The quotes above are a textbook case of metas making it look like Annie did something really sinister, dark, dreadful, abominable, wicked and corrupt, that warranted her dismissal without so much of a "Happy Trails To You" before shutting the door on her face. But with this dismissal, no one will give the ODP the benefit of the doubt. Everyone will stand for Annie. You can't pull the wool over everybody's eyes, all the time. This era is over.

You mercilessly marked her with the scarlet letter of "corrupt ex-editor" and behind her back, you are adding insult to injury. Shame on you.

[popotalk]

All Time Favorites

jcand
item28 Sat 02 Jun 2007 21:43 Message item0
Thank you freestyler for your reasoned post. Removing an editor is indeed a difficult task. Everyone should know that the Metas are indeed biased - we really want to retain every editor we can and work hard to join new editors to help this project grow. But we also have the task of ensuring that abuse is addressed. It is painful, but necessary.

threebuckchuck
item36 Sun 03 Jun 2007 16:12 Message item0
O.K. I was just wondering why her reason for removal is available for all to see but any other editor's removal that I have looked at wasn't. Just trying to understand . . .
Thanks for trying to explain . . . it's still not clear to me but lots of things in life aren't

motsa
item37 Sun 03 Jun 2007 16:16 Message item0
Generally, just a link to the removal discussion thread is included in the note. In some cases, though, the reason is included in an attempt to stop the inevitable discussion.

And Now what is this ROBOZUKI that you are HIDING. An additional paranoia that only higher rank editors gets to stop the SUBMISSIONS at the ODP with NOTES. So that FOOT SOLDIERS not seeing the FILTERS just have to work. WOW !!

[paidhosting]

Wohooo i am not an editor on dmoz lasted politics for only 2 - 3 days, darn annie survived that long in that corrupt cult of ignorant bitch(u all know who i am referring to) is kinda a miracle. But if bad things happen to good people, trust me even worse things can happen to bad people , with time bitches die ofcourse and no one is there by their bedside when they are about to go to hell.

So, time will tell the future of this particular bitch(whose name i will not disclose as you all know it already). But hey she aint got a life at all, so what do we all expect? Aol really needs to start screening people if they have a life at all first before making them metas. Cause those without a life i doubt can function properly.

Ok enough with my ranting go on folks this is interesting thread.

[helleborine]

Thank you.
I was being sarcastic, sweet stuff. "Happy trails to you" has become my sarcastic anthem for the day. I hope you don't mind me borrowing it.

[dvduval]

If they are having to dismiss so many people, maybe they are trying to start fresh or something, or maybe the whole model is flawed, and the firings will go on for a long time. They certainly get bashed a lot, but I have seen some improvements in the last several months in the quality of the directory itself.

I'm not fan by any means, because I too was dismissed, and was not given a reason, or any sense of appreciation for the time I spent trying to help them.

[popotalk]

If they are having to dismiss so many people, maybe they are trying to start fresh or something, or maybe the whole model is flawed, and the firings will go on for a long time. They certainly get bashed a lot, but I have seen some improvements in the last several months in the quality of the directory itself.

I'm not fan by any means, because I too was dismissed, and was not given a reason, or any sense of appreciation for the time I spent trying to help them.

Excuse me David you are out of the thread this is not PHPLD. No business to get here.:rolleyes:
Do you want to be next in line of my sweetness ? Please let me know and I'll be glad to lead the way since you know I am avoiding any shotput against you.

[helleborine]

Aol really needs to start screening people if they have a life at all first before making them metas. Cause those without a life i doubt can function properly.
This is not a joke. Popo, who has access to the ODP forum, told me a story about an old ODP editor who posted an explanation as to why he hasn't been very active. He said it was because he is homeless, and has been living out of this car for the past five years. Some sympathetic editor apparently asked the poor homeless editor what make of car he was living out of!!! Nice. Very sensitive and appropriate question.

This to say that a lot of editors and prestigious metas might be perhaps a little better off that this homeless peon, say, living in a trailer, or even a double-wide, editing all day, and collecting disability payment for debilitating anti-social personality disorders. But I don't want to paint all editors with the same brush, I am sure some of them do have jobs and live in houses without wheels.

[gworld]

Instead of just discussing the corruption and abuse in this forum, why not bring it to the place that hurts even more for corrupt Admins and Metas, namely: Wikipedia

There is a page about DMOZ and the corruption and abuse in DMOZ are briefly mentioned and they are asking for citation in the article but the problem is that as soon as someone adds an example or citation for different cases, it is removed by orlady and other "honest" editors.

Join wikipedia, give examples and citation and file complains against orlady and others if they remove your text for censoring the content.

Let's make everyone aware of how bad the situation is in DMOZ.

Link to DMOZ page in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmoz)

Link to see the history and who censors your additions (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Open_Directory_Project&action=history)

[paidhosting]

@helleborine i wasnt talking about bank balance hello.... "Getting a life" or "having no life" is i think a metaphor of some sort. Even the richest person out there could have no life, example maybe like Bill gates?

@Gworld i was the first one to ever post -ve on wiki and was removed like in less than an hour. So think again. No use posting there, as Orlady will take care of that pretty quick....

[popotalk]

Sure why not gworld and if anyone wants the full text of the morons at inner forum I will be very happy to provide just for references. ;)

@Qryztufre
Your just one of the few who really stands up.

[gworld]

i was the first one to ever post -ve on wiki and was removed like in less than an hour. So think again. No use posting there, as Orlady will take care of that pretty quick....

And that is the reason for second part of my post: FILE COMPLAIN WITH WIKIPEDIA AGAINST "HONEST" EDITORS CENSORING THE CONTENT. ;)

[paidhosting]

And that is the reason for second part of my post: FILE COMPLAIN WITH WIKIPEDIA AGAINST "HONEST" EDITORS CENSORING THE CONTENT. ;)

Hey filing anything anywhere would get nothing, unless you know someone working for aol personally, its all just waste of time.

Lookie found the history of what i posted

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Open_Directory_Project&oldid=117637401

Read the Editor removal procedures lol :D I used the word Grudge too :D

Basically this area


This statement is not true, what you see on the deactivated login page is a list of possible reasons which is a copy and paste for every editor removed, with the following text at the bottom "We do not disclose the specific details of login removals. However, the decision to deactivate your login was made by consensus of the meta community, and thoroughly reviewed by DMOZ staff to ensure that our decision was appropriate and warranted." The AOL Staff is not involved in the procedure either at all, its only those meta editors that have a grudge against an editor make sure that editor is removed. AOL staff intervention is required as currently dmoz is filled with meta editors who serve their own selfish interests and are not taking care of Dmoz as AOL would have wanted them to do.

[helleborine]

Let's make everyone aware of how bad the situation is in DMOZ.

Like everything relating to the ODP, the graph is hopelessly out of date. It shows the ODP on the upswing - but the graph on the Wiki stops in 2004.

This one from Alexa is a lot more revealing:

http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?o=l&c=1&f=555555&u=dmoz.org/&u=&u=&u=&u=&r=3y&y=r&z=1&h=300&w=610

[paidhosting]

This one from Alexa is a lot more revealing:

http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?o=l&c=1&f=555555&u=dmoz.org/&u=&u=&u=&u=&r=3y&y=r&z=1&h=300&w=610

Oh thats cause i stopped visiting dmoz at that time :D:D

[helleborine]

I believe a large chunk of that graph is editor traffic and activity.

[helleborine]

Once, I worked for a boss whom I saw abuse another employee. That other employee was a very good scientist, very hard working, but he was not a native English-speaker. The boss got tired of fixing the grammar in his written reports, so he started to insult and humiliate him in meetings, until the poor guy left on his own accord. Once he was gone, I became the next one to be harassed, because we didn't get many contracts for the test I was supervising. During my turn being treated badly, I shared an office with a newer employee, Wendy. When Wendy saw what was going on, two weeks after she started, she began calling her old boss to get her old boss back, and she left before I did. Her reason: "With people like him, no one is spared. When you're gone, I am going to be next."

The morale of the story is this. There are editors at the ODP busying themselves sucking up and swallowing their pride for brownie points. They think that because they haven't been hit by lightning, they are immune to shock. Trust me. Wendy is right. YOU're next. If you see people around you being mistreated, you're next. Always remember this.

You might think you have enough categories. You might think you have devoted enough hours and years to the ODP. You might think to you have enough friends, and enough love-capital. You might think you might be able to dodge bullets, Matrix-style, and never make a single dodgy edit.

But there is no such thing as being too valuable to the ODP to kick you out, unceremoniously, over a SINGLE iffy edit. Not even downright corrupt, clearly evil, obviously tainted, just a bit "iffy" is enough for you to be tossed to the curb with all the other racketeering ex-editors. And you'll never be given the chance to explain it if you made an error.

[popotalk]

What now martty. Any comment from you here ; I also saw your post there in internal forum and thats also VERY HUMANE :rolleyes:. How about ROBOZUKI want to know more about that. :rolleyes:

[Ivan Bajlo]

Why does DMOZ reminds me of the French Revolutions with heads rolling all over the place... in the end once they run out of editors metas will turn on each other - THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE! :D


http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PYM8G3QPL._SS500_.jpg

[Ivan Bajlo]

@Gworld i was the first one to ever post -ve on wiki and was removed like in less than an hour. So think again. No use posting there, as Orlady will take care of that pretty quick....

You can always send report to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:COIN

I don't know if any meta is admin on Wiki but I doubt it since it takes lot of hard work to become one. ;)

BTW it seems Orlady started doing some real editing on wikipedia only after DMOZ crash
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=Orlady&site=en.wikipedia.org

Hey filing anything anywhere would get nothing, unless you know someone working for aol personally, its all just waste of time.

Not necessarily, wikipedia article is no. 3 for keyword DMOZ and no. 4 Open Directory Project so many would read it.

We need some reliable third party source which can be referenced in wiki article otherwise will have bunch of anonymous IP's constantly deleting anything we write... I translated my Croatian (http://www.ivanbajlo.com/hrv/web/promocija/direktoriji/dmoz/) text into English (http://www.ivanbajlo.com/eng/web/promotion/directories/dmoz/) but if I write anything in ODP articles then I can be charged for COI. ;)

[helleborine]

Why does DMOZ reminds me of the French Revolutions with heads rolling all over the place...
Yep. They are like vultures fighting for their spot in the pecking order for the privilege of scraping that last bit of carrion off the bones of the dead giant lizard.

I love how the removal system works.

(1) A bunch of scheming heartless metas decide who'll next be dragged to the sacrificial altar. Personal vendettas welcome. It is rumored that metas rarely agree. This is true. "Kill my enemy" "No crucify mine!" "But my enemy is a worse fiend!"

(2) The chosen victim is not forwarned. Banishment is instant for maximum pain. You don't want to ease the victim out of its pointless addiction to editing, because the victim might realize that it was wasting its time all along, and time is the most precious thing we have. No, you want the poor thing to go cold turkey, and watch gleefully for shakes, fevers, nausea and delirium tremens to develop. It's more fun that way!

(3) No appeal! No explanation! That's the fun sadistic part.

(4) Add insult to injury. While the victim is shaking from withdrawal, let's make it look like the victim was a perfidious, profiteering, debauched, foul and venal editor, by refusing to explain, and keeping to the mantra that the dismissal was richly justified. Invoke the necessary secrecy of the process, and the importance of protecting metas against harassment. Yes, the victim must suffer, but the metas must be coddled! If anyone objects to the removal, you can conveniently say that the complainers don't know the details, that it was, aw shucks, such a hard painful decision.

(5) Keep a tally of the peon editors that protest the dismissal, for future victimization. Also keep a tally of those that shout "praise be to the great metas" to randomly smite one of those too, so that everyone knows who's boss.

(6) For years to come, poo-poo the dismissed editor as corrupt, and disgruntled, in the hope that the victim's voice will not be heard outside the walls of the ODP either, or be tainted with the suspicions of "corruption."

(7) Continue to waste your life visiting websites, writing sterile descriptions, looking out for mirrors, spam, etc, for a directory that no one uses, or will use again. The mother of all link farms, as if that was worth something. So... so most of your victims are out there utilizing their precious time for more rewarding, more intelligent, more challenging, and perhaps more financially viable activities. But why think about such things, we you can focus on the next victim!

[Ivan Bajlo]

I heard this is what happens on meta forum, is it true?

(Warning - not for the faint hearted) :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alLQJ-m80wI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcYfyUnwIi8

[helleborine]

Exactly, Ivan! With the difference that the Mayas were more humane and compassionate for the following reasons.

(1) The sacrifice victim knows what's going on, and sees it coming;
(2) when his headless body is tossed down the stairs, he's already dead and therefore doesn't feel it and
(3) the Maya's staircase is considerably shorter than the ODP's, from whose stairs, it is rumored, you can tumble for years.

[minstrel]

I have seen some improvements in the last several months in the quality of the directory itself.

And Compostannie was a good part of the reason for that.

There are editors at the ODP busying themselves sucking up and swallowing their pride for brownie points. They think that because they haven't been hit by lightning, they are immune to shock. Trust me. Wendy is right. YOU're next. If you see people around you being mistreated, you're next. Always remember this.

You might think you have enough categories. You might think you have devoted enough hours and years to the ODP. You might think to you have enough friends, and enough love-capital. You might think you might be able to dodge bullets, Matrix-style, and never make a single dodgy edit.

But there is no such thing as being too valuable to the ODP to kick you out, unceremoniously, over a SINGLE iffy edit. Not even downright corrupt, clearly evil, obviously tainted, just a bit "iffy" is enough for you to be tossed to the curb with all the other racketeering ex-editors. And you'll never be given the chance to explain it if you made an error.

(1) A bunch of scheming heartless metas decide who'll next be dragged to the sacrificial altar. Personal vendettas welcome. It is rumored that metas rarely agree. This is true. "Kill my enemy" "No crucify mine!" "But my enemy is a worse fiend!"

(2) The chosen victim is not forewarned. Banishment is instant for maximum pain. You don't want to ease the victim out of its pointless addiction to editing, because the victim might realize that it was wasting its time all along, and time is the most precious thing we have. No, you want the poor thing to go cold turkey, and watch gleefully for shakes, fevers, nausea and delirium tremens to develop. It's more fun that way!

(3) No appeal! No explanation! That's the fun sadistic part.

(4) Add insult to injury. While the victim is shaking from withdrawal, let's make it look like the victim was a perfidious, profiteering, debauched, foul and venal editor, by refusing to explain, and keeping to the mantra that the dismissal was richly justified. Invoke the necessary secrecy of the process, and the importance of protecting metas against harassment. Yes, the victim must suffer, but the metas must be coddled! If anyone objects to the removal, you can conveniently say that the complainers don't know the details, that it was, aw shucks, such a hard painful decision.

(5) Keep a tally of the peon editors that protest the dismissal, for future victimization. Also keep a tally of those that shout "praise be to the great metas" to randomly smite one of those too, so that everyone knows who's boss.

(6) For years to come, poo-poo the dismissed editor as corrupt, and disgruntled, in the hope that the victim's voice will not be heard outside the walls of the ODP either, or be tainted with the suspicions of "corruption."

(7) Continue to waste your life visiting websites, writing sterile descriptions, looking out for mirrors, spam, etc, for a directory that no one uses, or will use again. The mother of all link farms, as if that was worth something. So... so most of your victims are out there utilizing their precious time for more rewarding, more intelligent, more challenging, and perhaps more financially viable activities. But why think about such things, we you can focus on the next victim!

These should be bookmarked and broadcast across the net for all who would defend the spineless (but clearly not spinless) self-important legends-in-their-own-minds bullies who comprise the DMOZ inner sanctum... and for all current and potential editors who still hold on to some principles.

[minstrel]

freestyler
item862 Sun 03 Jun 2007 22:09 Message item0

irmaar, again, is very eloquent in the way she gets her point(s) across. I really like the way she posts.

[added]

pvgool said:
Quote:
BTW I am also wondering how a certain ex-editor knew about this and could post about it on DP only a few hours after the first posting showed in the internal forum.


There's always the possibility that the removed editor told them. She does have a lot of friends on the board and no one can stop her from telling people she got removed....

A typical DMOZ response - slander the victim to make it all her fault.

But of course it's the wrong explanation, as usual. Even to suggest that betrays the fact that either you didn't know Annie at all or you did and you know full well this is another smear tactic. You people are pathetic.

For the record, there is not one source - there are numerous. And none of them were Annie.

I also think it's hilarious that the admins and metas continue to hide behind the myth of secrecy. Just exactly who do you think is being protected? :rolleyes:

[minstrel]

I see Alucard reading this thread. There is someone I used to hold in high regard. I'd love to hear what you have to say about this, Alucard.

[gworld]

I see Alucard reading this thread. There is someone I used to hold in high regard. I'd love to hear what you have to say about this, Alucard.

The removal of Annie was the proof for many of what I was saying that corruption and abuse in DMOZ is organizational and I think this event will also prove that Alucard is just well oiled apology machine for DMOZ as I have always thought and posted but I hope that I am mistaken about him.

[gworld]

You can always send report to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:COIN

I don't know if any meta is admin on Wiki but I doubt it since it takes lot of hard work to become one. ;)

BTW it seems Orlady started doing some real editing on wikipedia only after DMOZ crash
http://tools.wikimedia.de/~interiot/cgi-bin/Tool1/wannabe_kate?username=Orlady&site=en.wikipedia.org



Not necessarily, wikipedia article is no. 3 for keyword DMOZ and no. 4 Open Directory Project so many would read it.

We need some reliable third party source which can be referenced in wiki article otherwise will have bunch of anonymous IP's constantly deleting anything we write... I translated my Croatian (http://www.ivanbajlo.com/hrv/web/promocija/direktoriji/dmoz/) text into English (http://www.ivanbajlo.com/eng/web/promotion/directories/dmoz/) but if I write anything in ODP articles then I can be charged for COI. ;)

We can stop the corrupt editors of DMOZ before they become too powerful in wikipedia and turn it to another DMOZ. They are already working hard on it and censoring DMOZ page and adding links to DMOZ is just part of it.
There is already enough proof of conflict of interest and censor in the history page of DMOZ against these editors, so let's report this to wikipedia and stop these people and change the DMOZ page to reflect the truth.

send report to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:COIN

Link to DMOZ page in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmoz)

Link to see the history and who censors your additions (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Open_Directory_Project&action=history)

[threebuckchuck]

. . . and I think this event will also prove that Alucard is just well oiled apology machine for DMOZ as I have always thought and posted but I hope that I am mistaken about him.

I can tell you for sure that you ARE mistaken . . .

[minstrel]

I can tell you for sure that you ARE mistaken . . .

Dave, I realize it isn't going to undo the hurt and injustice but please make sure Annie knows how much support she has out here.

[gworld]

I can tell you for sure that you ARE mistaken . . .

I consider Annie a friend but it was not long ago that she was sure that I was mistaken about organizational corruption and abuse in DMOZ. I hope you are right about this but I am sure to a large degree that this is not the case. :(

[helleborine]

I can tell you for sure that you ARE mistaken . . .
Wrong about Alucard being an apology machine?

===================

I just finished reading the internal DMOZ thread and frankly I am APPALLED with the ruthlessness of the slander machine over there. They are turning old friends against another with nazi-like efficiency. I bet the farm that many sheepish editors that are saying, to paraphrase: "If the metas say so, it must be true! Due process has been followed, how sad it is, but whatever is best for the directory! She must have been really slimy!" - I bet that all of them would have sworn on their mother's graves that if there was one person they would stand up for, it would be Annie. Now they see nothing wrong with taking the meta's word for it, while their hearts and their conscience tell them otherwise. You can tell from most posts that the editors are dismayed and tormented by having to decide between what they know is true, and what they are told by metas, through innuendos, which is that it the "wrongdoings" are much worse than they think. Sadly, most ignored the nagging voice of their conscience, and choose to repeat the meta's mantras. Very, very sad.

Us "DP trolls" have no such loyalty to the DMOZ "leadership." We are free to follow our consciences.

In light of everything, my respect for the courageous gboisseau keeps going up. Gboisseau is someone who stood up for what is right, much against the grain and the "culture," and knew where his loyalty should lie in the grand scheme of things - to his true friend Annie, not to the indoctrinated cult leaders and a moribund link farm. I wish there were more like him.

[Ivan Bajlo]

I consider Annie a friend but it was not long ago that she was sure that I was mistaken about organizational corruption and abuse in DMOZ.

You are still mistaken, there is nothing organized at DMOZ for a long time only disorganized. :D

[helleborine]

Dave, I realize it isn't going to undo the hurt and injustice but please make sure Annie knows how much support she has out here.
Yes. We stand united. The ODP can try to smear her reputation... over my dead body. And the dead bodies of many of us here.

We won't put up this this injustice, and we will take no flack from the ODP.

[gworld]

You are still mistaken, there is nothing organized at DMOZ for a long time only disorganized. :D

DMOZ Mafia is quite organized. Some one notices a wrong doing, A Meta removes the link, an Admin run interference that it was a one time mistake, defends the Meta and an editall adds the same content in form of another link. ;)

[Ivan Bajlo]

You can tell from most posts that the editors are dismayed and tormented by having to decide between what they know is true, and what they are told by metas, through innuendos, which is that it the "wrongdoings" are much worse than they think. Sadly, most ignored the nagging voice of their conscience, and choose to repeat the meta's mantras. Very, very sad.

I use to live in communism at lest there you had excuse not to act because if you sided with accused you risked ending up with him on nice little island in Adriatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goli_Otok). Oh well, all these silent editors will be joining us soon enough since they are next on removal list - everyone is guilty they just don't know it yet. :p

[minstrel]

In light of everything, my respect for the courageous gboisseau keeps going up. Gboisseau is someone who stood up for what is right, much against the grain and the "culture," and knew where his loyalty should lie in the grand scheme of things - to his true friend Annie, not to the indoctrinated cult leaders and a moribund link farm. I wish there were more like him.

I agree. I hope there are more. But I won't hold my breath.

Consider this post, noting the ironic title:

spectregunner
item869 Sun 03 Jun 2007 23:01 Message item0

A Point of Personal Honor

In the last 24 hours, I have had two editors whom I deeply admire and respect ask me if the rumors of my impending resignation over the compostannie situation were true.

To set the record straight:

1. I have not formed an opinion on what happened to compostannie. I have read every posting in this thread and continue to digest the information. I have long admired annie -- and make no secret of that fact.

2. I have no plans to resign.

Now there's a loyal friend indeed...

[helleborine]

[...]if you sided with accused you risked ending up with him on nice little island in Adriatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goli_Otok). Oh well, all these silent editors will be joining us soon enough since they are next on removal list - everyone is guilty they just don't know it yet. :p
The parallels are frightening:

Replace "Russian literature" with DP forum, haha.

"Spurred on by governmental policies, the anti-Soviet histeria grew so large that, according to some accounts, allegations of listening to Radio Moscow or reading Russian literature were considered sufficient grounds for imprisonment. In most cases, the accused were imprisoned without a trial, and even in the event one did take place, it was often marred with irregularities."

And it's off by a few years, but it does describe the ODP:

"The prison was shut down in 1988, and completely abandoned in 1989. Since then it has only been frequented by the occasional tourist, and some sheep-herders from Rab."

Yep. The only visitors to the ODP these days are the occasional submitting webmaster, and some sheepherders from Rab.

[helleborine]

Consider this post, noting the ironic title:

Now there's a loyal friend indeed...
He's quite verbose and confident making sure he puts himself on the side of the powers that be, and turning his back on his friend. He's very firm about this. I wonder if he'll sleep well tonight.

[Andy Peters]

i don't get this at all. Probably just work it out and approve my site please.

[minstrel]

i don't get this at all. Probably just work it out and approve my site please.

That's neither amusing nor helpful. Please find another thread to troll.

[helleborine]

i don't get this at all. Probably just work it out and approve my site please.
Red rep is only -1! It's a bargain if you ask me.

[Mia]

I think of DMOZ as a perfect example of a Union. When I was in college I spent some time working as a painter at the university to help pay for my books, food, dorm, tuition, etc. The university employees were all union. They kept asking me to slow down. Take it easy, don't go so fast.

For a while I thought these were compliments. I though they were indicating that my fast work was a good thing. You know, being factitious.

A short time later, they started "TELLING" me to slow down... No longer asking. When that did not work, they resorted to splattering paint on floors and baseboards after I completed a hallway or two. The boss saw these messes and I ended up working in a bindery instead. (NON UNION).

My point? I was fired as a DMOZ editor for working too fast... Do a good job in a union environment and expect to be pressured to stop.

[popotalk]

pvgool
And if I now read `No contact was made with her` I totaly believe that to be the truth. Which makes this case even more suspicious.
irmar
I've seen many removal processes, even with a vast majority of metas voting in favor, interrupted just because one meta offered to coach once again the concerned editor to avoid the more drastic measure.
I've seen that criticism comes in general from self-interested positions or from a lack of knowledge about the process or cases.
I could say more, but my conclusion is that the ODP has a fair process, with its own re-assurements against arbitrary decisions. Such a process is applied by honest and volunteer people like you, who feel sad and devastated when evidences come and such decisions have to be made.
Just a short and last thought:
When the case of an abusive editor shows up, and metas have to decide, they always face a big dilemma: to be honest and fair with the ODP and its community, despite of potential criticisms, or to be complacent to keep personal shine and popularity.
A very painful but not difficult decision, if we take into account the best interest of the project and its volunteers.


Qouted by Freestyler
On Jan 24th, 2007 compostannie said:
Well, I'm certainly surprised to hear that! Especially since I've been accused of listing sites as special favors for DP members by a pretty prominent meta over there. It's all so ridiculous I don't know whether to turn corrupt, throw my computer through a window or just resign from dmoz. So I do nothing as I contemplate my own fate. If I disappear from these forums, you'll know I chose the window option.

Damn people of DMOZ you accusing now ANNIE of being corrupt and abusive. I can't believe that.

BTW pvgool I am in there. RESURRECTION. GHOST or whatever you want to call it. From now on there will be a publication of ROTTEN DMOZ. Lets see HOW PARANOIA RUNS IN YOUR THROATS.

Play Games CHUCKY is HERE.
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/8103/

[helleborine]

Actually Popo, one of these editors you are quoting is displaying a healthy amount of skepticism.

In fact, pvgool also wrote:
'I would like to ask our admins and ODP (payed) staff to look into this situation as it doesn´t smell right"

"What I find extremely strange and disturbing is that we are first confirmed by several meta's that in almost all cases first warnings are given to an editor that misbehaves and that those editors are given the opportunity to change."

"If this should be true (but I don't know what is true anymore in this case) it realy is sad and unethical."

"It is either doubting the honesty of annie or the honesty of the other people involved."

Looks to me like pvgool has at least half a brain and half a heart. At least - and quite possibly a great deal more. I tip my hat off to her.

[minstrel]

Those of you in DMOZ have a choice to make, a very important choice.

Which is more important to you? Your principles? Truth? Honesty? Loyalty to basic values? Or your hallowed position within an increasingly lame and corrupt old boys club?

I think in the next few weeks, you should be looking around at those who have the guts to stand up and those who don't.

Hint: The ones remaining in the cesspool are those without guts - or without any principles to defend.

[helleborine]

BTW pvgool I am in there. RESURRECTION. GHOST or whatever you want to call it. From now on there will be a publication of ROTTEN DMOZ. Lets see HOW PARANOIA RUNS IN YOUR THROATS.

Play Games CHUCKY is HERE.

Metas are probably purging all the editors from the category dmoz.org/Mental_Health/Paranoia/Rot/Chucky/Tagalog/Ghost as we speak!

[helleborine]

Double post.

[Ivan Bajlo]

Damn people of DMOZ you accusing now ANNIE of being corrupt and abusive. I can't believe that.

That is how those people work... if you wrote on some forum you feel like strangling somebody who pissed you off you are instantly declared mass murderer no real evidence in required. :mad:

There use to be people in communist and fascist regime like that which would be more then glad to report there relatives, friends, neighbors or just about anyone as being enemies of the state, either because they got some benefits from it or simply to avoid that nobody points the finger at the them first - no real evidence was needed, simple accusation of being spy, saboteur was enough to send somebody away for years or to his death. :(

By the time this Stalinist show trail ends comrade Annie will be lucky if F.B.I. doesn't come knocking at there door to arrest her as a former Soviet spy, with rank of colonel of KGB, which used her doggies to send military secrets to Soviet Union across Bering straits while it was frozen. :p

[Mia]

Double post.


Not to take this off subject, but I had that happen to me twice today.. Luckily I realized it before hitting the submit button a second time..

BTW, I think you can "Delete" your duplicate post within a certain time frame.

[helleborine]

As far as I have noticed over all the years that I have been an editor removals were always been correct.
A few removals I looked at were clear to me why they were done, and I am not even a meta with access to all information.
I am sure meta editors don't make decisions just because they like or don't like a certain editor.

But ... yes there are a few buts.

1) In outside forums (those are the only places a removed editor can post anything about their removal) I always read that they did not get any warning at all. I have no reason to doubt our meta's who wrote "Except in emergency cases, no one is ever removed without a prior warning explaining what's wrong and all warned editors are being given a chance to correct their errors."
Do only the "emergency cases" complain on outside fourms?
Are the warnings not clear enough?
Are they (the removed editors) lying?
I don't know. But what I know is that the outside world gets a negative and most probably wrong view of our doings.

2) I would like to see the procedure changed in such a way that the removed editor is always send a polite email with the reason for his removal and that he is given the possibility to send 1 response. Preferably the editor would be given the possibilty to response before he is removal is definitive.
Somthing like:
- meta's decide an editor should be removed
- editor is blocked from editing
- editor is send an email with explanation
- editor is able to respond
- if the explanation shows that the meta's were wrong (he, they are human to - atleast I have been told they are) the block is lifted and the editor is given the opportunity to undo the wrongdoings
- no good explanation, block is changed to removed
Ofcourse this is not for the extreme cases.
This is only some thoughts I have about the removal process without knowing exactly how the process is currently working.
Maybe a similar process is already in place (warning is given, editor must acknowledge he read and understands the warning, editor is given opportunity to correct himself, if not and he keeps abusing the system a removal is in place). I don't know how a warning is given but it should be preferably be done in two ways at the same time: dahsboard (but not everybody logs in to theiur dashboard) + email - to make sure the warning is read.

And here she rebuts an answer to her post:
> shields the metas from abuse and harassment
I completely agree. Unfourtunaltely we need to take great care that such harassment is not possible.
But noone needs to know (except for the meta's ofcourse) which 5 meta's (or more) decided on a removal.

> Editors have many warnings about what is acceptable and what is not.
Only the strange thing is that I read from many ex-editors that they never received any specific warning and as such are unaware of what they did wrong. Although in many cases it was clear for me what it was they did that triggered the investigantion and removal.

> Out of all of the systems in ODP editor removals is one of the most sound.
Without knowing all the details meta's know I can not say for sure it is or it is not. I only can say that from the outside it does not look as sound. But I think it is the best system (for DMOZ itself) we can have in the current situation. Maybe the meta's can look at things to improve so that it is not any longer one of our biggest bad public relation issues.
I for one can guarantee that I never got a single hint and no one talked to me about anything wrong. In my case, it was about a single listing, and there was only 2-3 weeks between the listing, and my dismissal. No one communicated with me in the intervening period. All I noticed is that metas were clicking on links to my websites from within the meta forum threads. Since I was sure I had done nothing wrong, I assumed they were admiring my work! Haha.

[helleborine]

I don't think metas want to lose any editors, especially experienced ones, so it's gotta be pretty plain that there's a fox in the henhouse when they make a decision. Not much need to talk to the fox when he's got a chicken in his mouth.
Only a scumbag would refer to Annie that way.

If you (or I) are doing nothing wrong, then there is nothing to fear. If the meta community decides that I have done something wrong, either on purpose or inadvertently, and decide to show me the door, then I'll accept that gracefully and without any hateful bitterness, and I will not be out there bashing the metas or the ODP in general.
Oh yeah. Wait until it happens to you. You and I will be best buddies. I'll be there for ya.

Being removed as an editor wouldn't stop me from finding new sites, writing an ODP compliant title & description, and submitting as many of those as I wanted to, to the proper category. So, the only thing I couldn't do is hit the "Update" button myself.
Unbelievably, I did that too for a short while, during my detox from editing. When you realize that your efforts won't show up for a couple of years, and when they do, it will only be a pocketful of links on a fossilized directory, you'll stop pretty quickly.

I've seen many new editors and mentored a few of them, and all of them were concerned with how to do the job properly, not questioning the activities of metas.
Take that, young'uns! No questioning! Quiet in the ranks!

Don't believe anything you hear from outsiders, learn what we're like by editing and interacting with real editors. p
Textbook quote from "How to Recognize a Cult."

[helleborine]

After reading what's been posted and trying to connect the dots...

Surely it would have been more appropriate (and sensible, and empathetic, and less destructive of morale) to post "On indefinite medical leave" on compostannie's Request History if it was felt necessary to remove her editing permissions. Email (or call) her to say everyone's concerned about her health and she needs to focus on that full-time, start a "thank you compostannie and we look forward to your return when you're well" - and move on. What's so difficult about that? A lot of us are sick and tired of the barely-concealed glee at kicking people around under cover of "what's best for the Directory".

I can certainly understand that her efforts to "fix problems" while still so sick could be detrimental to both the Directory and her health. But there are many ways to address issues like this one, and imo the metas and admins made a very poor choice. They managed to appear arrogant and dismissive to compostannie, and condescending and self-righteous to the rest of us. And just how is that supposed to help the Directory? Are we really to believe that was the best they could do? Editor loyalty and efforts are at an all-time low, we're watching the flickering embers of the project while we wait to see what, if anything, AOL will do, and they decide what's needed is a bucket of cold water? Not exactly brilliant tactics. Reminds me of the Far Side cartoons about People Unclear on the Concept - and not for the first time.

To put it rather bluntly, I trust the "government" of ODP every bit as much as I trust the governments of the US and UK - good intentions may abound, but the road to hell....

irmaar? Not monsters? You're not doctors, either. You Have No Idea if her illness caused the erratic editing or not. And in the absence of evidence, normal people give someone the benefit of the doubt - ESPECIALLY to a volunteer at a volunteer project.

motsa? Don't try to copy Zeal's technique of trying to get all the Zealots to quit so they could quietly shut down the project with a minimum of complaints. You're too obvious. "

There are many things I life I do not understand and probably never will understand. The list just got bigger by one.

I think it would be a good thing for Dmoz to implement some kind of formal appeals process for its editors. It doesn't have to come with an explanation for removal, but a guarantee that it'll at least be considered, meaning editors can ask for a second review of the evidence by admin (or an admin) and the admin has the choice to deny the review outright because the evidence against the editor is obvious, or they can choose to give everything a second look. Right now the system seems a little cold hearted in that editors who have volunteered years and many hours of their time are completely cut off from any communication with the project and I think the ODP at least owe it to its editors to not leave them completely in the dark with no recourse.

That adds a whole new level of wrong to it...

If we are a community, then even the bad apples need a voice...especially if said bad apple has done nothing wrong.

There is certainly nothing fair about not having a voice!

As according, the same guidelines only say 'you can' not that you should, or even have to, talk to the offending editor. With that, any one of us could find ourselves ousted without thought or warning, if 4 friendly metas back up 1 that disagrees with you. There is no means for appeal, there is no voice, only a message on your screen when you try logging in to edit.

item872 Sun 03 Jun 2007 23:38 Message item0

Quote:
I trust your judgment.


I wish I could say that.

Processes have to be transparent a appeal process, which independently reviewed the decisions made might help those of us who cannot know the so called "facts" of the case to be able to be sure that it is as straight as is being made out. If this is as coperbottomed as we are led to believe then it would come to the same conclusion.

No one wants to know what motsa, bldarter, markhrod, raggerdyrags, sfromis, johncotton, spectergunner, irmaar and their merry band of power-hungry cult members had to say, especially those of us with sensitive stomachs. It looks like motsa is the high priest of human sacrifices these days, congratulations on the promotion motsa, and "happy trails to you."

[minstrel]

Most of those, which the exception of the publicity-seeking bitch, motsa, are unknown to me.

But as I said earlier, the choice for editors and metas is blatantly clear. You step up, show some guts, show some principles, and voice your protest loud and clear - and then when it is ignored or whitewashed, as it most certainly will be, you resign and do your best to scrub off the stench of DMOZ if you can. Or you remain and announce to all of the world that you are a gutless sycophant without courage, loyalty, or principles. And then explain to your children and grandchildren why you stood by and did nothing while they crucified an honorable human being.

Nazis.

[gboisseau]

motsa
item857 Sun 03 Jun 2007 19:58 Message item0


Surely it would have been more appropriate (and sensible, and empathetic, and less destructive of morale) to post "On indefinite medical leave" on compostannie's Request History if it was felt necessary to remove her editing permissions.
Since someone's health is never a part of why they are removed, why would lying on the removal note and saying that it was be appropriate?

Too many people who know nothing at all of the meta discussion think they know why compostannie was removed. The bottom line is that you don't. It's so easy to spout off about how evil and mean the metas and admins are when you know next to nothing about the circumstances surrounding this case. The idea that metas and admins should ignore abuse because the editor in question is popular is insane. When has that ever been how this project operated? And no meta or admin has posted on the subject of this removal with anything even close to glee so the fact that you imagine that where it doesn't exist says so much more about you and your attitude than it does about anyone else. I wonder why you stick around, if that's how you feel. (referring to pvgool)

------------------------------

For everything annie did for you, motsa, this is a hell of a way to pay her back. You set her up and then used it against her to get her removed. So annie was a patsie? She had to be a sacrificial lamb to the robots at the ODP so they stop posting here and at Bunny's forum? I really think minstrel can give you something for that rage you have against editors who care.

[paidhosting]

Most of those, which the exception of the publicity-seeking bitch, motsa, are unknown to me.

Nazis.

Hey what could i say other than the fact you can read my mind :D:D




Hint: The ones remaining in the cesspool are those without guts - or without any principles to defend.


Stop reading my mind minstrel will yaa :D

[minstrel]

For everything annie did for you, motsa, this is a hell of a way to pay her back. You set her up and then used it against her to get her removed. So annie was a patsie? She had to be a sacrificial lamb to the robots at the ODP so they stop posting here and at Bunny's forum? I really think minstrel can give you something for that rage you have against editors who care.

It would be a total waste of time and pharmaceuticals.

[paidhosting]

She had to be a sacrificial lamb to the robots at the ODP so they stop posting here and at Bunny's forum? I really think minstrel can give you something for that rage you have against editors who care.

Alright mosta if ur reading this, if you resign today and get annie back on dmoz with publicly written apology, will terminate my crazy forums which is probably whats burning ur ass to hell cause its killing ur stinky RZ crap and have lowered u to this selfish bitch status. Wait why do i use that word "bitch" all the time i think of mosta ? Wait maybe cause ur a bitch mosta ever gave that a thought ?

And if you have something against DP and editors posting here , well i cannot do much about that, but hey since when dmoz or anyone made u incharge of anyones opinion and where they post ? Come on get a life will yaa?

Ok that was my today's ranting maybe more tomorrow?

[gworld]

For everything annie did for you, motsa, this is a hell of a way to pay her back. You set her up and then used it against her to get her removed. So annie was a patsie? She had to be a sacrificial lamb to the robots at the ODP so they stop posting here and at Bunny's forum? I really think minstrel can give you something for that rage you have against editors who care.

Motsa is an Ass but also a puppet. Motsa will not do anything without the puppet master (orlady) approval. ;)

Pvgool always talks too much and pretends to be this intellectual and honest person but you can be assured that in final analyze, he will be convinced once again that management is right as always. :rolleyes:

[Ivan Bajlo]

Originally Posted by pvgool from DMOZ forum

> shields the metas from abuse and harassment
I completely agree. Unfourtunaltely we need to take great care that such harassment is not possible.
But noone needs to know (except for the meta's ofcourse) which 5 meta's (or more) decided on a removal.

So the system was created because metas are such cowards they don't want to take any responsibilities for there actions, that explains a lot. They prefer good old fashion backstab and someone else doing there dirty work instead of looking somebody in the eyes and telling them the truth or this because in most case there evidence is such total crap with which you couldn't convict even Adolf Hitler of starting WW2. :mad:

At lest there is no risk of those people taking over Wikipedia since not only all there actions are public but if they want to be at any higher position then basic admin they would have to reveal there identity which obviously isn't something they'll likely do. :p

Motsa is an Ass but also a puppet. Motsa will not do anything without the puppet master (orlady) approval. ;)

Asking Annie back would be admitting mistake and that there Stalinist show trails on meta forum are flawed beyond repair and would open Pandora's box with all the other removed editors since then they all could ask for the faked evidence to be reveled and reexamined by somebody really unbiased and once abuse on meta forum would become public it would call for removal of probably all metas and admins not to mention that afterwards there reputation would be such that GWB would look like a really cool guy compared to them. :D

So even if they wanted to change there are simply too many skeletons locked up in that closet called meta forum to let out, sure they could claim forum got deleted during crash and clean up last few months but then all of the manufactured evidence would be gone too.

[popotalk]

I see Alucard reading this thread. There is someone I used to hold in high regard. I'd love to hear what you have to say about this, Alucard.

Out of "delicadeza" maybe Alucard should resign too. Think Baby Think.

I saw trueblue who have been very quiet for all his career here in DP. If you dont want to post you can PM me personally.

In the coming few days there will be some editors who will resign. I already have the lit and its growing.

[The Pheonix]

This entire thread (well most of it as you always get the odd nutter) was really enthralling but in reality as much distaste as there is here about what has happened to Annie and others, does anyone seriously think the hierchy at Dmoz give a stuff at what people rant about? Don't get me wrong I'm on the side of minstrel and others but really, do you think they take a blind bit of notice?

[popotalk]

This entire thread (well most of it as you always get the odd nutter) was really enthralling but in reality as much distaste as there is here about what has happened to Annie and others, does anyone seriously think the hierchy at Dmoz give a stuff at what people rant about? Don't get me wrong I'm on the side of minstrel and others but really, do you think they take a blind bit of notice?

Yes they do friend. As a matter of fact I have a PM from some editors who will resign. Besides of the fact that the EDITORS or let say SUCKERS have been contacted by HIGH RANK EDITORS not to post in the thread. Take Neb for example that mor - on has a very high blood impulse and holding on. (Dont hold it neb you might get a heart attack) Jim Noble aka martty aka DPLurker has been doing it too. Orlady with her watchful eyes and reads the DP posts evryday and Shadow575 posing as copperdrum ? These people are your regular sumbags of the daily life without humanity.

And The Phoenix we all know about it.

[minstrel]

This entire thread (well most of it as you always get the odd nutter) was really enthralling but in reality as much distaste as there is here about what has happened to Annie and others, does anyone seriously think the hierchy at Dmoz give a stuff at what people rant about? Don't get me wrong I'm on the side of minstrel and others but really, do you think they take a blind bit of notice?

Perhaps not. As I said, this should separate those editors with principles and courage from the suckups who will do anything to hold on to what they perceive as power and authority, such as it is.

After the fallout, even the most naive or most dense should have no illusions about the ones remaining.

[helleborine]

[...] does anyone seriously think the hierchy at Dmoz give a stuff at what people rant about?
No. They don't give a rat's tutu about what anyone thinks. They won't change.

They view the "outside," from their ever-shrinking fiefdom, as misguided, disgruntled, and with great paranoia. They have a cultish, "let's huddle together against the outside forces that wish to annihilate us" attitude.

Does there need to be a purpose when crying out against an injustice? People are being crushed and hurt - we stand up on their behalf. Perhaps it is to right a wrong, if only in the moral arena? We all know that DMOZ will not change, reconsider, apologize, nor do we care. What they did is amoral, we are outraged, and have no motive to keep silent or to kowtow to anyone at the ODP.

[helleborine]

Thanks popo.

Just a few quotes here to show the cult mentality. It's truly sickening, but fortunately, such shameless sycophants are actually the MINORITY over there; that extreme of bootlicking deserves to be quoted because I feel that my very large post here should begin on a humourous note:

Why this sudden lack of respect and a request for proof? Why are we attacking authority, instead of backing it for the good of the Directory? Your loyalty to your wife is very commendable, threebuckchuck, even without knowing all the facts; the same kind of loyalty that I give to our meta community. [...]you shouldn't fault me for supporting the trust that was given to each of our metas.

Next, I am going to concentrate on the positive. For instance, meta-editor revr here shows impressive amounts of courage, spunk, and independent thinking:

jeanmanco sites another thread to say that compostannie had a least one warning, now if I read that correctly
Quote:
Well, I'm certainly surprised to hear that! Especially since I've been accused of listing sites as special favors for DP members by a pretty prominent meta over there."
compostannie quote
then the so called warning was a comment by a meta on another set of boards. That's not an ODP warning.

Did anyone really discuss this matter with her privately whilst the metas were metatating?

Yes, I do know and trust some of the metas, but I also know how groups get backed into a group decision corner and what we are not told is just how this enquiry was conducted, and that often affects and predicts the outcome.

It seems more than a little ironic today that we are called the Open Directory Project.
Quote:
Some Meta's like myself don't want to use the dashboard feedback system if possible and they can avoid it. Whether a warning is sent via feedback, dashboard feedback, Instant Messaging, or any other form of communication, it should be taken seriously.

I don't personally find that acceptable and secondly this seems to have been a warning given on another message board, that is totally unacceptable as an official warning as far as I am concerned.
Quote:
Wouldn't answering that get into the whole "editor removal discussions are confidential" thing?

With the information already given out here, why would a comment to say that a meta spent two weeks/days/hours/seconds privately discussing any matters with compostannie that ultimately led to the present situation get into the whole confidentially thing? It's comments like that which sound so paranoid that make me doubt the whole system.

I find it totally unacceptable that metas chose other means than dashboard notes to offer official warnings stop not related to any specific case....and for the reasons given by others.

Now back to the question....was any warnings or conversation had with compostannie in respect of the reasons she was chucked out?

If not I find that totally unacceptable too.

Trust is a strange word here it seems to mean that we are to be treated like and behave like mushrooms. I have faith in a system that is transparent in the way it operates and that can respect confidentiality when it is needed. But to not even inform us if any official warning was given must now be taken as it was not given, in my eyes, and it smacks of the kangaroo courts with judge jury and executioner but no defence before execution.


Inpendepent thinking is quickly squashed by the Assistant High Priest - this guy has all the subtlety and grace of a cement bull:

Quote:
then the so called warning was a comment by a meta on another set of boards. That's not an ODP warning.
Just to clarify: a warning from a meta is a warning, whether it comes in the form of an dashboard message or an email or whatever.

Quote:
Did anyone really discuss this matter with her privately whilst the metas were metatating?
Wouldn't answering that get into the whole "editor removal discussions are confidential" thing?


I have to disagree with you guys, this pvgool is restoring my much eroded faith in mankind:

Quote:
Whether a warning is sent via feedback, dashboard feedback, Instant Messaging, or any other form of communication, it should be taken seriously.

I don't agree. If a person in his role as meta wants to send a warning to an editor he should use one of the official channels dmoz offers him to do so. The reason is that such warnings need to be registred by dmoz and should be available to all other meta's to read.
Any other communication of the same person to an editor would still to be taken seriously (as all communication should be) but it can not be seen as a official warning as that person is now not speaking in his role as a meta and his actions can not be checked by his fellow meta's.

Agreed but abuse reports and other issues have to follow a set and approved protocol just like the investigation itself. My question relates more to the whatever as I would expect that warnings should also follow a set protocol and the only 2 lines of communication I would personally expect to be appropriate would be via dashboard or via ODP registered email address/feedback (without whatever which could also include #ODP, the likes of SKYPE, other fora or any other of the many means of communication).

I am not trying to get all pedantic about this and I have no intention of getting into a debate over what was perhaps a loose choice of words by motsa but generally I would expect that warnings be communicated via approved methods.


jeanmanco
Quote:
Just to clarify: a warning from a meta is a warning, whether it comes in the form of an dashboard message or an email or whatever.

I am surprised. The Meta guidelines state

Quote:
Metas should use the dashboard message tool to issue warnings to wayward editors.

Presumably the idea behind this is that dashboard warnings are logged and can be viewed by other metas? That process gives greater accountability than private communications, and protection to all parties from accusations based on what was or was not said in private.

Seriously, I am more impressed by the minute. Who would have guessed, haha.
glippitt
It should always be crystal clear whether the meta is giving an official warning in official capacity, or sharing a personal opinion. Posting on a dashboard note is always the former, posting on a public board is always the latter. An email can be either, depending on whether or not it's clearly identified as an official warning.

And if any metas need that explained to them, they shouldn't be metas imo.

[helleborine]

I am keeping these comments in a separate post... of special interest to us DP trolls. Read them carefully; very interesting.

(quoting someone else I can't track back)
Is it me or are we here at ODP being told to stay away from DP? I always see metas' and all kinds of editors over there? So, are the meta's telling us where we can go on the internet now?

(freestyler's reply)I sense a lot of subtle intimidation tactics coming from the Metas' (very plural) posts, so you're not the only one; but it's more of a don't speak out, don't stir the pot, and don't question us too much type of intimidation. But, you'd need thick skin to post over at DP right now. I think I'm being misquoted, but...whatever!

Hey sweet stuff, I ain't misquoting nobody! And I am very impressed with anyone who, like you, has the courage to speak out and stand up for their convictions. I'd expect no less from someone who uses a moniker like "freestyler". You inspire respect.

Here's a "beaut" from a real coward he's squarely putting the blame on those nasty evil unclean outsiders, scheming a blame bounce back with our secret blame shields and blame phazers - aluminium hat and conspiracy theorist alert:
What I do find ironic is that the same ODP haters and ex-editors who had so much to do with creating this situation are now trying to place the blame on everyone except themselves. But that is typical of how those particular individuals operate.

teonas
Personally I'm quite disgusted how some abusers violate the privacy of the posters of this thread and obviously prevent us from having a free discussion. I hope our evil metas find a way to stop that...
Well my dear teonas, you're welcome to visit DP, haha, make sure to follow all Level 4 Biohazard Protection Procedures. Bring your Hazmat suit and a self-contained oxygen supply. We'll set up multiple showers, a vacuum room, an ultraviolet light room just for you. You'll get to see what FREE discussion is really like. Open, public, controversial. Our little DP spy popotalk is forcing you to have a public discussion - it should be no less free for having an extended audience. I, for one, am actually rooting for a lot of editors there, including some metas, so it's not like we are automatically putting them in a bad light.

Maybe some good will come out of it, after all.

Consider this. Had they bothered "warning" me, before canning me, I'd probably still be there editing (so in hindsight it was for my own good, haha) because I am sure I could have explained my one mistake to their satisfaction. And guess what? I would not have become a thorn on their side (here I flatter myself a bit, I know they don't give a rat's tutu what I think).

[Ivan Bajlo]

Just a few quotes here to show the cult mentality. It's truly sickening, but fortunately, such shameless sycophants are actually the MINORITY over there; that extreme of bootlicking deserves to be quoted because I feel that my very large post here should begin on a humourous note:

Poor threebuckchuck, he has no knowledge that his wife was replaced by KGB mole, good thing 007 is one of the metas. :D

Next, I am going to concentrate on the positive. For instance, meta-editor revr here shows impressive amounts of courage, spunk, and independent thinking:

Now we know who is next on removal list. ;)

I have to disagree with you guys, this pvgool is restoring my much eroded faith in mankind:

Second on removal list.. :rolleyes:

Seriously, I am more impressed by the minute. Who would have guessed, haha.

Darn that removal list is getting really long... this will turn into bloodbath or worse genocide, we need UN peacekeepers in there! No wait that never turns out right... we better send in French Foreign Legion they had relatively good reputation and aren't afraid of anyone. :o

[Ivan Bajlo]

Consider this. Had they bothered "warning" me, before canning me, I'd probably still be there editing (so in hindsight it was for my own good, haha) because I am sure I could have explained my one mistake to their satisfaction. And guess what? I would not have become a thorn on their side (here I flatter myself a bit, I know they don't give a rat's tutu what I think).

Agreed, if they haven't removed me I would probably still be editor of my obscure niches minding my own business, wouldn't even become too much active on this forum and wouldn't have a clue what's all the fuss is about - so nice of them they give so much free time to rant. :rolleyes:

As the saying goes keep your friends close but you enemies even closer instead they seems to be dedicated into turning as many editors against them as possible.

[helleborine]

so nice of them they give so much free time to rant. :rolleyes:

You're so funny Ivan, you always make me laugh. Yes, how magnanimous of DMOZ to grant us the gift of free time to rant!!! Hahahahha. It's the gift that keeps on giving, isn't it. Like a subscription. For eternity it seems, in some of our cases! Hahahahah.

[pctec]

Finally with all that has been said there should be no doubt as to the corrupt nature of the ODP. The machine known as DMOZ will refute and dispute everything that is and will be said to the pitiful end... I remember when I use to go to the official dmoz forum and felt illl over what I saw. Annie was let go because she has honesty and integrity... And to think I once actually wanted to be included in that "directory" and believed it to be just. Shame on me...

Power corrupts, its a fact!

[popotalk]

crowbar
item878 Mon 04 Jun 2007 11:56 Message item0
I don't know why any of us would not trust our meta community to make the right decisions, is there that much disrespect and mistrust for people who have earned meta responsibilities?
Somebody has to make final decisions, even unpleasant ones, it can't be done by a popularity vote. No such thing was done when they had to remove a meta, and I don't remember there being any protest about that decision.
Why is it, that all of a sudden, metas are now our enemies instead of our leaders, protecting the editing community and the Directory? Why this sudden lack of respect and a request for proof? Why are we attacking authority, instead of backing it for the good of the Directory?

Pssst. Hey you. Yes you crowbar. Have you ever had that username of yours smash into your head. Or are you one of the Village People in New York.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/Machoman1978.jpg


I have to post this to let you know how they dig and sling Annie and Dave.

threebuckchuck
item891 Mon 04 Jun 2007 18:45 Message item0

Quote:
Wouldn't answering that get into the whole "editor removal discussions are confidential" thing?
First let be perfectly honest here, this removal is FAR from being confidential. The supposed reasons for her removal are there for ALL to see.
Quote:
Just to clarify: a warning from a meta is a warning, whether it comes in the form of an dashboard message or an email or whatever.
The "warning" you are referring to here I remember. Annie told and showed me a rude remark that was posted by a meta at Resource Zone in a public forum. The thread was removed pretty quickly but I did see a screen shot of it which is how Annie saw it too.
Quote:
But, I'd like to know from 3buckchuck if he's assuming she didn't receive a warning or if that's what she told him. He admits that she refuses to talk to him about what happened.....
@freestyler, as mentioned above, the only thing we "SAW" was the screen shot of the rude comment. She is talking to me about things but as usual, NOTHING she thinks may be confidential. Loyalty to the bitter end.

Just for EVERYONE's info, her illness was effecting her well before January. Her blood levels had in her OB's opinion, had been affecting her for at least 6 months and in my opinion is still affecting her. She is still having are hard time thinking straight, making decision and she is still very forgetful. Not a pretty sight to what I'm used to. So the post she made at DP, that people are using against her:
Quote:
Well, I'm certainly surprised to hear that! Especially since I've been accused of listing sites as special favors for DP members by a pretty prominent meta over there. It's all so ridiculous I don't know whether to turn corrupt, throw my computer through a window or just resign from dmoz. So I do nothing as I contemplate my own fate. If I disappear from these forums, you'll know I chose the window option.

Maybe DP members should go to RZ for help understanding their listing problems
first of all was totally sarcastic and if you actually read the whole post and thread, she is actually advising people to go where they can actually get something done instead of spouting off at DP. Is it me or are we here at ODP being told to stay away from DP? I always see metas' and all kinds of editors over there? So, are the meta's telling us where we can go on the internet now?
Quote:
I don't know why any of us would not trust our meta community to make the right decisions, is there that much disrespect and mistrust for people who have earned meta responsibilities?
@crowbar, what planet are you from? I am not saying NOT to trust meta's, what I am saying is why would anyone think people with higher positions are trustworthy let alone honest. We are ALL human and tempted by power.
Quote:
Many of us still regard her as a personal friend. Although it may be one sided.

@rugs, trust me when I tell you, anyone she considered her friend, it's still a two way street. If there is one thing I do know about my wife, is she is NOT a revengeful or vindictive person as a cople of the people that are reading this thread know because of things that were going on last night at ODP. Loyalty to the bitter end, AGAIN!

She doesn't know about these posts I'm making however she has asked me if I do make a post, to give out her contact information to people here. She isn't talking about any of this in ANY other forum anywhere and asked that if people want info from her, she would be happy to answer any questions posed. Her email is edited.

She also asked me to tell all of you that she isn't posting in those other threads elsewhere because she wants them to die (the threads that is ). If they don't have any editors to bitch at, the threads will die.


See how she still cares for the morons at ODP. Do you think all of you deserves this ? :rolleyes: A FEW but not all.

[Ivan Bajlo]

Or are you one of the Village People in New York.

Village People are having a concert? Where? Where? :D

See how she still cares for the morons at ODP. Do you think all of you deserves this ? :rolleyes: A FEW but not all.

Darn I really hate nice persons who forgive everyone they ruin all the fun to evil revenging bastards like me. :o

Oh, well I'll go add more pages to my little websites so I'll have even more deeplinks to submit to DMOZ - that should one day get some innocent editor removed for listing it. ;)

[Qryztufre]

I am no longer an active editor at DMOZ. While I loved the concept of an OPEN Directory Project, I found it anything but OPEN once I got to step inside. Their animosity may be because all of you webmasters are jerks, but there is animosity, and too much for me to handle. I felt no love there, I hardly felt like.

Now I guess I am "disgruntled" so with that, these are the words I left them with...I'll not quote who I was replying too though, as heh, that would be against my own principles (because it was within the guidelines of being an honest editor that I read it).


Your over generalizations against Digital Point members are as equally bad as their over generalizations about OPD Metas (etc), and it's a mindset like that which labels anyone a member there that shows up here a troll.

I think that your rant does little to help resolve any issues, in fact, it does the exact opposite by increasing what tensions are already present. Do you think that your post makes us look good? Do you think your hinting at why they were removed as editors makes you look smart? I personally don't.

Several Editors are members of Digital Point, and several of them defend the honor of the editors of all levels here. A post like yours makes US look bad, all of us, and is a horrible low.

Also, as you just found out about Digital Point today, it says a lot that you think that Minstrel is a "big fish" many people can not really stand him. As for the others, he can't really stand a few of them. I've never heard his story as to why he was let go from here, or even if he was an editor at all, and I know I've certainly not had the time to check his credentials as you apparently have.

As for the interchangeable toadies that agree with him, it does seem universal that all of them claim no official warnings were given. Do I believe them? Not all of them, but then, when I come in here and see such hatred for a completely unrelated site, it's no wonder they talk bad about us (as we talk about them).

Our motto is "Humans do it better" their motto for us "submit and forget" Why? Because it's been stated time & again that we do not have to pass submitted sites, in fact, we don't even have to read them! Our public forums are full of bitter editors that would just assume never having a new member show up, and should one actually ask a question, they are usually treated like dirt.

Yes, time & again, that new guy is a jerk, but does that mean we should be jerks right back, especially before he's proven himself worthy of being treated like that? We have completely isolated ourselves from the public. We have disallowed any and all contact with the people that submit to us...the very people that actually USE us.

How does that make us the Open directory project?

I truly see now why *I* am considered the troll here. *I* actually stood up for myself. *I* actually looked at the guidelines and said "wait, this is like NAZI germany". A meta can show up on my categories door step and send me packing, no warning is needed, no appeal process is to be had...but *I* am the troll for asking if that is right.

Then I see posts like that, and a few above it. Treating outsiders like the plague...no wonder they say DMOZ is dying...what happens when people stop caring? And it's not just outsiders... editors here are treating editors like trash. IMHO, Annie getting let go should have been a wake up call for many here, because chances are they are next.

As, if you look hard enough, we all have "broken" the rules.

The ODP is correct, we should not be worried or concerned about Google's PR...but what we should start looking at is the ODP's PR, and in this I'm talking Public Relations. As more and more "ex editor" is let go, the dislike for us and this place grows. I do not think it's because of all the bad talking...but rather, we have yet to defend ourselves with anything worthy of listening too.

IMHO, DMOZ is dying, but it's not them that is truly hurting us... it's us.

And while it likely does not mean much, I quit. I do not like my name attached to this place, it mares my reputation more then Digital Point ever could. At least there, people are open and honest. I am proud that CompostAnnie is my friend, and while I would loved to have put faith in the Meta's here and over looked her being let go...I could not help but to read Motsa's replies to this (and other) threads.

You all should be ashamed of yourselves...

I explain more on my Live Journal: http://qryztufre.livejournal.com/211322.html


* WARNING!! You're about to completely remove yourself from this project. Dude, are you sure you want to do this?
* Fire as an editor

*
Reason for changes:
<deleted internal link>

[Ivan Bajlo]

Great post, I would give you green but I'm all out of them...

I am no longer an active editor at DMOZ. While I loved the concept of an OPEN Directory Project, I found it anything but OPEN once I got to step inside. Their animosity may be because all of you webmasters are jerks, but there is animosity, and too much for me to handle. I felt no love there, I hardly felt like.

You shouldn't have done that I bet they would be more then happy to remove you themselves. :D

Now I guess I am "disgruntled" so with that, these are the words I left them with...I'll not quote who I was replying too though, as heh, that would be against my own principles (because it was within the guidelines of being an honest editor that I read it).

IIRC revealing anything from inside violates communication guidelines (http://dmoz.org/guidelines/communication.html#privacy) and is ground for removal, I have learned that lesson well. ;)

P.S.
And as far as I know Minstrel was never editor and I'm saying nothing on if I like him or hate him before he tells me do I get a discount if I ever happened to be in the neighborhood. :rolleyes:

[helleborine]

Lots to answer here -

Sure, we tend to generalize here, but no more than anywhere else. And if you read my posts, you will find that I took the time to point out that the automaton DMOZ cult members were the minority, and that metas and members were in the majority questioning the most shortsighted editor dismissal in all of DMOZ history, and I don't need to know any DMOZ history to feel confident that this is true.

"Several editors [...] defend the honor of the editors" - sure, that's very chivalrous, but defending someone else's honor should not be a matter of blind loyalty, but intelligent discernment. Without critical thinking, stepping in to defend the honor of others has no value. It is even foolish.

For the record, I don't know how big a fish minstrel is, but I do very much like him, he is an intelligent, witty, principled fellow with heart and mind in the right places. I resent the suggestion that people might not "stand him" - there probably isn't a smidgen of truth to that nasty statement. I am, furthermore, proud to be one of the "toadies that agree with him." I am in active, not passive agreement; I come to similar conclusions, independently, thank you very much.

I reiterate that no official warning was ever given to me - no unofficial warning either - everything was perfect as far as I could tell. I did have a mediation pending against a well-known crazy meta who has now resigned, and was reinstated, and resigned, and was reinstated, and is now resigned again. He is the one who instigated my dismissal, and it was a personal vendetta. That was a pretty rotten thing to do, and it was over a SINGLE edit - so it was not exactly an emergency and nothing had gotten out of hand. One out of 11,000. And if anyone calls me a liar regarding the total and absolute lack of anything that could remotely pass for a warning - DEMAND PROOF.

DMOZ will die. Of inoperable brain cancer, if it is not smitten by flesh eating disease or Ebola first.

[Qryztufre]

For the record, I don't know how big a fish minstrel is, but I do very much like him, he is an intelligent, witty, principled fellow with heart and mind in the right places. I resent the suggestion that people might not "stand him" - there probably isn't a smidgen of truth to that nasty statement. I am, furthermore, proud to be one of the "toadies that agree with him." I am in active, not passive agreement; I come to similar conclusions, independently, thank you very much.


Hehe... so I am not misunderstood in all this. Before ANYONE calls me a toadie blindly agreeing with minstrel, please see this thread: Matt Cutts and the paid links (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=300412&highlight=Matt+Cutts)

*smirk*

It should be PAINFULLY obvious that I do not see eye to eye with him on a few things ;) it's also the closest I've come to trolling in years...

One of my biggest pet peeves is over generalizations, especially when I am involved in some way. That's likely what set me off enough to quit... Though, I do not think it was a rash decision on my part, as it's something I've contemplated since a week before I was even approved...as that was when I saw the joys that take place on RZ.

And honestly, if you are not going to quit because you think that maybe Annie did break a rule, then look around at all the other things going on. It really is not unlike a German city in WWII...you never know when the SS will bust in your door and send you away. New faces are not welcome, and outsiders are completely shunned.

Now ask yourself why it's called the OPEN Directory Project?

Log into the Resource Zone and look around, see how it's non-staff members are really treated...keep in mind that it's the only official place where a NON editor can get anything. Then head over here to the DMOZ forum, or to that other place... dmoz-resource-zone(?) and see how friendly they are...actually HELPFUL. It's a COMPLETE shame that the editors there actually have to hide their identities to be HELPFUL to the very people the ODP is for.

It's not a matter of "disgruntled ex-editors" look at the "disgruntled existing editors" that run the place. They are running off the Editors that actually care about the community they are supposedly serving, and if you wish to dispute that, then log into to the two forums and then think again...

[minstrel]

Your over generalizations against Digital Point members are as equally bad as their over generalizations about OPD Metas (etc), and it's a mindset like that which labels anyone a member there that shows up here a troll.

I think that your rant does little to help resolve any issues, in fact, it does the exact opposite by increasing what tensions are already present. Do you think that your post makes us look good? Do you think your hinting at why they were removed as editors makes you look smart? I personally don't.

Several Editors are members of Digital Point, and several of them defend the honor of the editors of all levels here. A post like yours makes US look bad, all of us, and is a horrible low.

Also, as you just found out about Digital Point today, it says a lot that you think that Minstrel is a "big fish" many people can not really stand him. As for the others, he can't really stand a few of them. I've never heard his story as to why he was let go from here, or even if he was an editor at all, and I know I've certainly not had the time to check his credentials as you apparently have.

As for the interchangeable toadies that agree with him, it does seem universal that all of them claim no official warnings were given. Do I believe them? Not all of them, but then, when I come in here and see such hatred for a completely unrelated site, it's no wonder they talk bad about us (as we talk about them)....

How does that make us the Open directory project?

I truly see now why *I* am considered the troll here. *I* actually stood up for myself. *I* actually looked at the guidelines and said "wait, this is like NAZI germany". A meta can show up on my categories door step and send me packing, no warning is needed, no appeal process is to be had...but *I* am the troll for asking if that is right.

Then I see posts like that, and a few above it. Treating outsiders like the plague...no wonder they say DMOZ is dying...what happens when people stop caring? And it's not just outsiders... editors here are treating editors like trash. IMHO, Annie getting let go should have been a wake up call for many here, because chances are they are next.

As, if you look hard enough, we all have "broken" the rules....

IMHO, DMOZ is dying, but it's not them that is truly hurting us... it's us.

And while it likely does not mean much, I quit. I do not like my name attached to this place, it mares my reputation more then Digital Point ever could. At least there, people are open and honest. I am proud that CompostAnnie is my friend, and while I would loved to have put faith in the Meta's here and over looked her being let go...I could not help but to read Motsa's replies to this (and other) threads.

You all should be ashamed of yourselves...

Very well said, Q.

And Ivan is correct: I have never been an editor at DMOZ. The reason they hate me there is that I have been a vocal and active critic of their inane paranoid policies since 2004 - back at WebproWorld in those days. And because as time goes on, what I have been saying since 2004 is being proven to be increasingly true, in spite of their denials.

[The Pheonix]

Perhaps not. As I said, this should separate those editors with principles and courage from the suckups who will do anything to hold on to what they perceive as power and authority, such as it is.

After the fallout, even the most naive or most dense should have no illusions about the ones remaining.

Good points minstrel but ego is a more powerful drug than morals, or so it seems with many of these. Power is only what we allow them to have, we gave it to them, we can take it away, all it needs is a concerted effort.

[helleborine]

I would laugh it weren’t so sad.
It's a new world, where the guilty are given every chance to defend themselves with damage control, and the victim has no rights. There's more sympathy for the abuser, than a clear cut sense of what's right and what's wrong.

What many of you want are all the juicy details, so you can make your own judgement. My comment is that you're not entitled to it. Become a meta, and then you can look into it, but until that time, trust the people who have been given that entitlement, they've earned it.

The only thing I can say about Annie, Laisha, or any other editor (including myself) is that no matter how many times you go to church or donate to charities, once you rob the bank, you're a bank robber. Unfortunately, it's not what you were that matters, but what you are.

So tell me crowbar - does your "teacher wife" condone and encourage bullying of students who have been seriously sick for half a year, just underwent surgery and continue to have serious problems?

I am baffled, bemused and appalled by the focus here on "were all the t's crossed and i's dotted" instead of the actual issue: unnecessary cruelty to a fellow editor by (apparently) a unanimous vote of all the metas and all the admins. Removing her editing permissions could have been handled much, much better imo.

Either you're calling compostannie and threebuckchuck hypocritical liars who made up a story about her illness, or you're enjoying adding to their problems right now. Which is it? Because hiding behind "it's a tough job but someone has to do it" and "it's only for the good of the Directory" isn't cutting it.

I am totally amazed at the continuing argument that this was handled in the very best way possible, all admins and metas are just the most terrific, thoughtful, caring human being you could ever hope to meet, and anyone who has questions on this should shut up and edit. Terrific work, guys. Were you inspired by the recent reminders in the news about Newt Gingrich's and Alberto Gonzalez's hospital "messages"? Because I don't see that you did anything different.

[minstrel]

For the record, I don't know how big a fish minstrel is, but I do very much like him, he is an intelligent, witty, principled fellow with heart and mind in the right places. I resent the suggestion that people might not "stand him" - there probably isn't a smidgen of truth to that nasty statement. I am, furthermore, proud to be one of the "toadies that agree with him." I am in active, not passive agreement; I come to similar conclusions, independently, thank you very much.

Thanks, helleborine. But Q is correct: Lots of people don't like me much. I'm okay with that.

Yfs1 said it some time ago. Describing me, he said:

Positive: Says what he thinks.
Negative: Says what he thinks.

or words to that effect. Whether you like me or not depends on whether you like what I think. :)

But what pisses people off the most is that when I see injustice and hypocrisy or spamming and scamming, or people just spouting nonsense and mythology, I just won't shut the hell up. :o

[The Pheonix]

Thanks, helleborine. But Q is correct: Lots of people don't like me much. I'm okay with that.

Yfs1 said it some time ago. Describing me, he said:



or words to that effect. Whether you like me or not depends on whether you like what I think. :)

But what pisses people off the most is that when I see injustice and hypocrisy or spamming and scamming, or people just spouting nonsense and mythology, I just won't shut the hell up. :o

The problem with people who are honest and don't have fears about speaking thier minds is that they do get hated, I'm one of them. I don't patronize here minstrel when I say that we need more people like you instead of the many bullshitters who post for the sake of posting with little or no substance to thier comments.

I'm learning from people like you, so are many others, the one's who aren't, well they know it all anyway so who gives a 'BEEP'. :rolleyes:

[pctec]

Rep added to Qryztufre...
Awesome!

[helleborine]

Hmm... I'm disappointed that I didn't know digitalpoint existed. Long ago I wasted time trying to reason with disgruntled ex-eds on a couple of boards... but this gaggle of misfits makes Arttworks and his crew look boring.

Apparently the big fish in their murky little pond claims to be a shrink. The boy has issues big enough to warrant their own zipcode. He has no actual practice, cause he occupies his time posting online diatribes about ODP 24/7. He's surrounded by a sycophantic little cadre of semi-literate trolls that appear to share his delusion of near adequacy.

Currently he and his interchangeable me-too toadies are holding a fierce pat-yourself-on-the-back competition... each convinced editors here quake in fear of their next barrage of half-baked accusations. [Hey, maybe the 7 or 8 editors that both know you exist AND read your posts really do live in fear, who knows? Naaah, just kidding] .

Each has a unique tale of woe about how they were unjustly kicked out of dmoz... one for "editing too fast" (oh yeah, we hate productive editors)... another for making just ONE little mistake (was it the ONE where you re-cooled your site the third time or the ONE where you removed all its competitors?), etc. Typical ex-ed trolls.

It's like watching dishonorably discharged privates hold a mock trial to indict the JAG staff. They are of course honorable and holy, unlike cowardly Dmoz editors (although they occasionally admit they can see our forums, so that includes them as well). Why they still obsess over dmoz years after they were dismissed with cause is unexplained but sad. Doubt they had Annie's edit numbers in the 15 minutes they lasted on their first login... she really shouldn't have bothered with that bunch.

Newsflash to the girls of DigitalPoint... you should charge admission.
You're pretty durn funny in a "pull my finger" sorta way.

[OK... Quote that piece of our forum , you clueless losers.]
Consider it done, Luv Bug. You have been quoted in *foul* entirety.

I take deep offense at your "just ONE little mistake (was it the ONE where you re-cooled your site the third time or the ONE where you removed all its competitors?)" as I know you are referring to me. And you are the liar of liars, robjones, because I cooled only one site, Flybase (an epic collaboration covering all things Drosophila, at http://flybase.bio.indiana.edu) and I have never cooled any of my sites, let alone the same one 3 times in a row as you imply. Furthermore, I have few competitors but I added, not removed, other webmasters that share the same niche as I. You have sunk to sordid depths, in making things up in order to discredit someone.

I suggest that any editor that wishes to check my editing record for cooled sites and for deletion of my competitors do so. They will uncover that robjones is not beneath lying as a means to mudsling an adversarial outsider.

Lying for the sole purpose of vilifying others. Good job, robjones. I see a promotion to meta in your future, if you're not one already.

[minstrel]

This is amusing:


item916 Tue 05 Jun 2007 14:16 Message item0

I have hesitated to post on this subject only because I did not want to see my post copied and pasted into that cesspool over at the DP forums.

Apparently, when you're up to your neck in excrement, it becomes difficult to tell exactly where the stench is originating.

Here's another slimy sycophant who is more worried about the sieve of secrecy than injustice:


item917 Tue 05 Jun 2007 14:23 Message item0

The only way to stop it is to find the abusers of confidentiality that are passing along the posts, and those are editors, which would probably result in more sanctimonious protests and demands of justice for the abusers.

It's a new world, where the guilty are given every chance to defend themselves with damage control, and the victim has no rights. There's more sympathy for the abuser, than a clear cut sense of what's right and what's wrong.

Like my teacher wife tells her students, "I don't give you the grade, you earn it, whether it's 50 or 100."

If an abuser is caught, then attack those who caught him, or the system that allowed it, but, by no means hold the abuser personally responsible.

What many of you want are all the juicy details, so you can make your own judgement. My comment is that you're not entitled to it. Become a meta, and then you can look into it, but until that time, trust the people who have been given that entitlement, they've earned it.

Translation: We cannot let people know how metas abuse their power and slander people. If you want to know what really happens behind those closed doors, become a meta yourself. That way we know you'll be so desperate to hang on to what they call "power" that you'll be sure to toe the party line... the Nazi party line, of course.

Someone with principles then steps up:


item918 Tue 05 Jun 2007 16:14 Message item0

So tell me crowbar - does your "teacher wife" condone and encourage bullying of students who have been seriously sick for half a year, just underwent surgery and continue to have serious problems?

I am baffled, bemused and appalled by the focus here on "were all the t's crossed and i's dotted" instead of the actual issue: unnecessary cruelty to a fellow editor by (apparently) a unanimous vote of all the metas and all the admins. Removing her editing permissions could have been handled much, much better imo.

Either you're calling compostannie and threebuckchuck hypocritical liars who made up a story about her illness, or you're enjoying adding to their problems right now. Which is it? Because hiding behind "it's a tough job but someone has to do it" and "it's only for the good of the Directory" isn't cutting it.

I am totally amazed at the continuing argument that this was handled in the very best way possible, all admins and metas are just the most terrific, thoughtful, caring human being you could ever hope to meet, and anyone who has questions on this should shut up and edit. Terrific work, guys. Were you inspired by the recent reminders in the news about Newt Gingrich's and Alberto Gonzalez's hospital "messages"? Because I don't see that you did anything different.

Back to the slimy sycophant:


item919 Tue 05 Jun 2007 16:29 Message item0

Nowhere in my post did I mention either of them, or their situation. I was talking about abusers of confidentiallity. I'm not a meta, so I don't know any of the facts, and I have no right or desire to judge annie. I would add that you are in the same position and shouldn't judge meta actions.

The only thing I can say about Annie, Laisha, or any other editor (including myself) is that no matter how many times you go to church or donate to charities, once you rob the bank, you're a bank robber. Unfortunately, it's not what you were that matters, but what you are.

Translation:

1. Nowhere did I say anything bad about Annie, except of course that she;'s a criminal.

2. I'm not a meta but if I really practice and become expert at sycophancy one day I will be.

And by direct request, there's this one:


item922 Tue 05 Jun 2007 22:25 Message item0

Hmm... I'm disappointed that I didn't know digitalpoint existed. Long ago I wasted time trying to reason with disgruntled ex-eds on a couple of boards... but this gaggle of misfits makes Arttworks and his crew look boring.

Apparently the big fish in their murky little pond claims to be a shrink. The boy has issues big enough to warrant their own zipcode. He has no actual practice, cause he occupies his time posting online diatribes about ODP 24/7. He's surrounded by a sycophantic little cadre of semi-literate trolls that appear to share his delusion of near adequacy.

Currently he and his interchangeable me-too toadies are holding a fierce pat-yourself-on-the-back competition... each convinced editors here quake in fear of their next barrage of half-baked accusations. [Hey, maybe the 7 or 8 editors that both know you exist AND read your posts really do live in fear, who knows? Naaah, just kidding] .

Each has a unique tale of woe about how they were unjustly kicked out of dmoz... one for "editing too fast" (oh yeah, we hate productive editors)... another for making just ONE little mistake (was it the ONE where you re-cooled your site the third time or the ONE where you removed all its competitors?), etc. Typical ex-ed trolls.

It's like watching dishonorably discharged privates hold a mock trial to indict the JAG staff. They are of course honorable and holy, unlike cowardly Dmoz editors (although they occasionally admit they can see our forums, so that includes them as well). Why they still obsess over dmoz years after they were dismissed with cause is unexplained but sad. Doubt they had Annie's edit numbers in the 15 minutes they lasted on their first login... she really shouldn't have bothered with that bunch.

Newsflash to the girls of DigitalPoint... you should charge admission.
You're pretty durn funny in a "pull my finger" sorta way.

[OK... Quote that piece of our forum , you clueless losers.]

There you go, robjones. Now you're famous. Your mother must be so proud of you.

For the record, I don't "claim to be a shrink". I am a psychologist with a lot of years experience, which enables me to see through your pathetic defenses like peering through plexiglas. However, if you want more, I'm afraid you'll have to pay me for that. My standard rate is, I suspect, your week's salary at that fast food outlet but maybe your mom can help you out. :)

Now this perfect bitch:


item923 Tue 05 Jun 2007 23:08 Message item0

Maybe we should start a "digitalpoint sucks" thread and keep this thread for those we truly miss?

I'm sure they'll be elated having their own thread that they can just copy and paste over there.

Oh yeah, glippitt for Queen.

What a charmer... S/he/it will have a bright future at DMOZ. Watch for falling concrete, there, raggedy. :rolleyes:

[gboisseau]

For the record, I don't "claim to be a shrink". I am a psychologist with a lot of years experience, which enables me to see through your pathetic defenses like peering through plexiglas. However, if you want more, I'm afraid you'll have to pay me for that. My standard rate is, I suspect, your week's salary at that fast food outlet but maybe your mom can help you out. :)

OMG, I am crying here - and to think my mother told me playing on the computer would cause me to loose my eyesight,,, wait - I didn't have a computer when I was a kid,,, oh yah, playing with THAT!! I would have made a darn good http://domoz.org/Ad_____ (fill in the blank) editor.

BTW, how come I keep getting a message that I have to spread reps around before I can give them to anyone here? I think it is a commie plot to block me. :D

[helleborine]

There is always a silver lining.
"The only thing I can say about Annie, Laisha, or any other editor (including myself) is that no matter how many times you go to church or donate to charities, once you rob the bank, you're a bank robber. Unfortunately, it's not what you were that matters, but what you are."

Do you know I always believed that there was a process to prove that you were a bank robber, one which included you having a say and telling your version of the events and being able to call witnesses and if found guilty an appeal process. Well unless you are in Guantanamo.

I have no truck with abusers being chucked out, but, as someone else has suggested there are ways of doing that which offer a more transparent form of justice for all to see and would not harm the directory. The key to that was being able to immediately suspend editing and posting rights of suspects, whilst certain matters are looked into.

Do you know the UK government persuaded me to trust them about certain intelligence information they had. Coperbottomed it was, now what a joke.

we have seen on here metas saying they don't like using the dash warning system, that a warning is a warning however given. Sorry the system of warning and punishing offending editors can be iron out in public, even if the cases cannot. We need a system, like one expects at work for how discipline is carried out, and that system needs to be adhered to.

[paidhosting]

Log into the Resource Zone and look around, see how it's non-staff members are really treated...keep in mind that it's the only official place where a NON editor can get anything. Then head over here to the DMOZ forum, or to that other place... dmoz-resource-zone(?) and see how friendly they are...actually HELPFUL. It's a COMPLETE shame that the editors there actually have to hide their identities to be HELPFUL to the very people the ODP is for.

It's not a matter of "disgruntled ex-editors" look at the "disgruntled existing editors" that run the place. They are running off the Editors that actually care about the community they are supposedly serving, and if you wish to dispute that, then log into to the two forums and then think again...


That would be http://www.dmoz-resources.com/zone/ , www.dmoz-resource-zone.com i took offline cause of RZ was trying to get some sort of lawsuit maybe for something, so i decided to play a bit safe. Ofcourse they wanted to kill the forums for obvious reasons are still trying hard i mean really hard, look what they did ? they removed annie cause she used her real name on the forums and got punished cause she is nice to everyone.. and is the single person who follows dmoz guidelines, she even helped me while i was editor edit my listings so they suited dmoz. who would spend that much time ? Motsa ? forget it motsa is all about denial thats her middle name.

Anyways i agree its a shame that those editors that want to join this community based forum (http://www.dmoz-resources.com/zone/) and help users, have to hide their identity cause some evil meta will hunt them down. Hey thats the only reason cause i knew from day one how evil some of the metas can be. hence had posted on the main page : http://www.dmoz-resources.com/ that neither me nor anyone else shall ask for true identity of that person at dmoz.

Everyone once in a while gets excited about getting status checks done, and if some editor has time and nice enough to do that it makes someone else happy.

Its all (http://www.dmoz-resources.com/zone) about spreading happinesses around, but for few(at old crappy RZ ) its called "favoritism" and trying to take Old shitty RZ(their forums) down agenda and nothing more.

I might close my forums cause for some reasons i feel that annie and her involvement in helping folks at those forums got her into trouble and feel responsible. So sorry annie once again bunny is really sorry :(. She does not even talk to me anymore on aim now :(.

[gworld]

That would be http://www.dmoz-resources.com/zone/ , www.dmoz-resource-zone.com i took offline cause of RZ was trying to get some sort of lawsuit maybe for something, so i decided to play a bit safe.

It is still online but why do you want to take it offline? :confused:

They will not sue you, there is some thing called discovery phase in any law suit which gives you possibility to look in the other side affairs, do you really think that DMOZ editors want to come out of shadows and have a light on them? ;)

[helleborine]

I think gboisseau needs a new avatar:

http://canada-gardens.com/images/pepe1.jpghttp://canada-gardens.com/images/pepe2.jpghttp://canada-gardens.com/images/pepe3.jpg

You can choose from these signatures:

“Where are you, my little gumbo of chicken ? Your French fried shrimp is sizzling for you.”
“Permit me to introduce myself, I am your new lover.”
“Where are you, my little object of art? I am here to collect you.”
“Is it possible to be too attractive?”
“You know, most men would get discouraged by now fortunately for you, I am not most men!”
“You stop resisting me, bebe, and I’ll stop resisting you.”
“You are the corned beef, and I am the cabbage. The corned beef is nothing without the cabbage.”

[paidhosting]

It is still online but why do you want to take it offline? :confused:

They will not sue you, there is some thing called discovery phase in any law suit which gives you possibility to look in the other side affairs, do you really think that DMOZ editors want to come out of shadows and have a light on them? ;)


I do not know gworld, those evil metas have done really good job in making good editors crap in their pants, so i doubt any more status checks would be even possible, cause i think thats what most the visitors are all exited about, most do not want a fair review of their site if its even listable at dmoz, which exeditor(lol he is actually an exeditor user i am referring to) is good at, well atleast thats what i think, than there is always the mighty IVAN, with who if you mess u end up dead usually.

Something interesting i want to point, i had lots and lots of urges of bitching at evil metas at the forums , but it was annie, and minstrel always who stopped me from doing that , and those bitchy threads are in the dump, cause i feel dmoz is not bad, its the few people behind it that need to be removed for good, and saying Annie is corrupt and not suited for dmoz, is like saying " Lets kill Mother: Tressa " Although that great soul passed away few years ago, but still u get the big picture.

So, question is why i should keep the forums running, annie right now is already in shock, first her sickness, now this, i am really worried about her health cause i call her granny annie :p and it hurts me the most when she is in pain and being called unfair and unjust. And keeping forums running i think will only cause her more pain as she will not be able to help out users by providing status checks as usual. Might remove status check section or something but i am trying to get some con census from few on what to do with the root cause of all her problems.

Come on guys(talking to those calling her corrupt etc.) give annie a break will yaa, imagine having painful surgery for cancer, and coming back home to recover only to find mental stress ? Really nice time some bitch decided to show her colors again. She(the bitch) will rot in hell for sure for eternity, and thats coming from bottom of my heart. I do not know how true it is but sometimes when u wish something from bottom of ur heart it comes true.

Wait did i mention she forgot to take her medicines for 4 days cause of all this removal crap, and did not sleep at all ? Her health went down again, papa dave is also tensed out right now. But i hope annie starts taking her medicines again, else i fear the worst which u guys do not see right now.

Advice to annie if ur reading this " Please forget about dmoz " lots of other constructive things u can do like the scotter thingy u bought for spot,ike and auggie, come on annie do not give away for health for dmoz, its not worth it.
Now take that medicine of yours now.:mad:

Cheers all. Try to live in peace and tranquility without trying to hurt others. Life is too short to make enemies.

[helleborine]

It is a great tribute to Annie's character and selfless contributions that she is, perhaps, helping her beloved Directory more through her dismissal, than through all that editing.

The editors and metas might complain about the existence of an editor in cahoots with us trolls ar DP, feeding us their internal forum, yum. But the positive spin to this is that it has allowed us to witness several eye-opening facts. Firstly, the dissenters, and by dissenters I refer to editors that wish to see a minor, yet vitally important change to the editor dismissal process, are the most vocal and articulate majority. This majority includes metas and ordinary editors alike, who, realizing that Annie's dismissal cannot so easily be undone, seek to avoid a repeat of the tragedy. Secondly, the status quo hardliners (followed by a few hilarious obvious unthinking sycophants) are very scarce, have long run out of arguments and "because-we-say-so," and are quite browbeaten. Thirdly, a lot of people at DMOZ ARE using their hearts and their minds and carry the hope that their voice might be heard and the process more fair in the future.

Could this change, however tiny, be around the corner? The fact that the discussion has gotten this far, and gathered such a positive momentum is much to Annie's credit. Think about it. It would not have happened for any editor. On anyone else... the smear tactics would have worked. Against Annie, the smear tactics are at once hollow and depraved. Only her sacrifice had the power to rally people against such an unfair, cruel practice.

She's performing miracles at the ODP, from the outside. I am calling the Vatican, I want to propose a candidate for sainthood.

[paidhosting]

Could this change, however tiny, be around the corner? The fact that the discussion has gotten this far, and gathered such a positive momentum is much to Annie's credit. Think about it. It would not have happened for any editor. On anyone else... the smear tactics would have worked. Against Annie, the smear tactics are at once hollow and depraved. Only her sacrifice had the power to rally people against such an unfair, cruel practice.

She's performing miracles at the ODP, from the outside. I am calling the Vatican, I want to propose a candidate for sainthood.


Yaa i agree no one cared when i got removed cause i stayed in dmoz say for like 2 - 3 days till they found out my forums i was running thanks to that bastard pvgool. :D. Sorry for my foul language but i couldnt find any better word as my vocabulary is poor.

@ sainthood part, lol do put spots, ikes and augies names too, they are the cutest huskies i seen and from what annie says, they probably start licking if some burgler was to come in their house... Those huskies need to be trained lol as once ivan said. :D

[gworld]

Come on guys(talking to those calling her corrupt etc.) give annie a break will yaa, imagine having painful surgery for cancer, and coming back home to recover only to find mental stress ? Really nice time some bitch decided to show her colors again. She(the bitch) will rot in hell for sure for eternity, and thats coming from bottom of my heart. I do not know how true it is but sometimes when u wish something from bottom of ur heart it comes true.

I haven't talked with Annie for awhile and I am sorry to hear this since it was not long ago that a member of her family passed away from cancer. If you talk to her, just say hi for me and tell her, she shouldn't be upset or care. The DMOZ Mafia are just bunch of coward assholes anyway and who cares about such people's opinion.

[paidhosting]

I haven't talked with Annie for awhile and I am sorry to hear this since it was not long ago that a member of her family passed away from cancer. If you talk to her, just say hi for me and tell her, she shouldn't be upset or care. The DMOZ Mafia are just bunch of coward assholes anyway and who cares about such people's opinion.

I think she comes here and check this thread out daily so she probably got ur hi, but will say hello to her if i get a reply back from her first :(.

[Ivan Bajlo]

Originally Posted by That adorable crowbar
What many of you want are all the juicy details, so you can make your own judgement. My comment is that you're not entitled to it. Become a meta, and then you can look into it, but until that time, trust the people who have been given that entitlement, they've earned it.

Wait I know this movie, don't tell me...

Kaffee: I want the truth!
Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.

http://static.firedoglake.com/2006/05/img_fewgoodmen.jpg

(Replace Jessep with crowbar and Santiago with Annie :D )

I use to respect admins, metas until first I got removed from DMOZ by faked charges and later got into quarrel with admin on Croatian wiki who had no problems in abusing his powers to satisfy his vanity while others admins didn't nothing so call me skeptical but I no longer trust anyone in positions of power until his/hers actions proves it.

Originally Posted by That adorable crowbar
The only thing I can say about Annie, Laisha, or any other editor (including myself) is that no matter how many times you go to church or donate to charities, once you rob the bank, you're a bank robber. Unfortunately, it's not what you were that matters, but what you are.

You mean she robbed the bank and didn't give a cut of the loot!? All this time I treated here with utmost respect and this is how she pays me back... bunnie I got a job for you... :D

http://andrewklavan.com/words/media/godfather.jpg

[Ivan Bajlo]

Advice to annie if ur reading this " Please forget about dmoz " lots of other constructive things u can do like the scotter thingy u bought for spot,ike and auggie, come on annie do not give away for health for dmoz, its not worth it.

And once you get better try joining wiki it will be vacation compared to DMOZ and with your dedication, Jimbo will probably start asking you to go on a conferences with him all over the World... not sure how will hubby react to that... :D

Now take that medicine of yours now.:mad:

Take it or we will hijack your doggies and give them to poptalk to guard them and I'm not sure how long will he be able to hold back! :D

She's performing miracles at the ODP, from the outside. I am calling the Vatican, I want to propose a candidate for sainthood.

After they review her case and what she has been through it will be fastest sainthood approval in history. ;)

[gboisseau]

Look very carefully at my avitar.

I think gboisseau needs a new avatar:

http://canada-gardens.com/images/pepe1.jpghttp://canada-gardens.com/images/pepe2.jpghttp://canada-gardens.com/images/pepe3.jpg

You can choose from these signatures:

“Where are you, my little gumbo of chicken ? Your French fried shrimp is sizzling for you.”
“Permit me to introduce myself, I am your new lover.”
“Where are you, my little object of art? I am here to collect you.”
“Is it possible to be too attractive?”
“You know, most men would get discouraged by now fortunately for you, I am not most men!”
“You stop resisting me, bebe, and I’ll stop resisting you.”
“You are the corned beef, and I am the cabbage. The corned beef is nothing without the cabbage.”

[helleborine]

Haha, gboisseau, how long has that "salute" been there for???

Here's just a single sentence that is heavy with meaning:
Oh yeah, glippitt for Queen.
See, this is sarcasm. Raggedyrugs doesn't like glippitt's very resonable call for change, nor the genuine support she is getting from the Infidels on the Outside.

All that glippitt and the majority of thinking editors are asking is for the formalization of the editor dismissal procedure so that it includes a warning from official channels - in the future. As minuscule a change as this appears to be to us trolls at DP, it is a sweeping revolution at Fort Dinosaur and results in the rearguard taking up arms (rocks and clubs) against the other editors.

If this was real life, they would not start to insult us, or insult their audience. Nor would they entrench themselves defending an untenable position. Would their world really fall apart if they were required to send a recorded, dashboard warning before pulling the plug on someone, and hearing their explanation? DMOZ's Neanderthal faction seems to think so.

[popotalk]

How about this from a Coward that don't even sign a red rep.
You guys are morons. Compostannie has been filtering information to meta and other editors about your goings-on. Especially, about what happened at Bunny's forum. True Dmoz'er to the end. Not one of you.

Well another one is Neb reported me to DP Mods for attacking and harrassing members. How do I know that its Neb ? Answer is How do I get inside ODP undetected. Nyahahahaha. I am way smarter than most of you. *Pumping FIST in the AIR*:D

Either way thats fine. NO POINTS counted. :D WONDERFUL ! BRAVO !

[helleborine]

BTW - I wonder if any editor took the time to verify robjones' fabricated accusations that my ONE mistake was that I allegedly "re-cooled" my site "the third time" or the ONE where I allegedly "removed all its competitors?"

Buncha liars. When you catch one in such an obvious, verifiable lie, it has to make you wonder how many others are liars too. It makes you wonder how much of the accusations that have been laid against editors and ex-editors are trumped up charges, and how much is florid fiction of the kind you get from a lie that keeps getting repeated, like the Chinese Telephone game, or fishing stories where the breadth of the slander increases with each re-telling.

[popotalk]

Evidence

I have to look it up in my basement and I found some META messages I had before and I remember that SHE ask me to stay away at DP. This is just an evidence of how the High Ranks manipulate your lives.

Not Good from a Meta/Admin. ;)

[helleborine]

You guys are morons. Compostannie has been filtering information to meta and other editors about your goings-on. Especially, about what happened at Bunny's forum. True Dmoz'er to the end. Not one of you.

Are you kidding me popotalk??? Not only is the above a lie, but it's clearly written by a DMOZ insider that no scruples making up lies about Annie. Anyone with half a brain will see right through it.

Yep! Another liar, unless that's robjones lying again.

You know why it's a lie? Because there is nothing secret here, it's all in the thread for anyone who has an internet connection to see. Why would anyone "filter information" to metas and other editors? About what? Our VERY PUBLIC going-ons? This applies to DP and Bunny's. It's all public.

He's trying to drive a wedge, claiming that Annie is against us, and still loyal to the ODP. I am ready to believe that she is still loyal to the ODP, and that is commendable, and a testament to her kind and generous heart.

===========================

Dear "Mr. Popo's anonymous red rep fairy"

Us DP trolls are standing up for Annie, as one body and one mind. We might be despicable infidels, but none of us would ever contemplate doubting Annie's rock-solid integrity, compassion, and dedication, EVER. We'll believe one word from Annie before we believe thousands of meta-diatribes. That is the nature of our faith in this outstanding woman, and yes, member of our community. I will add that none of us would view continued contact between Annie and the ODP as a betrayal. That's what she loves, we totally and unconditionally respect that, and we only love her more for the unshakable loyalty she is capable of.

In stark contrast, look at what you and your ilk is doing. It's not pretty, is it now. You've lost your moral compass, and are resorting to complete lies to defame good people. I am so glad that the likes of you are a shrivelled up minority, and I hope that the good guys win.

Yours maybe, but not truly,
ex-editor uroboros

[pctec]

How about this from a Coward that don't even sign a red rep.


Well another one is Neb reported me to DP Mods for attacking and harrassing members. How do I know that its Neb ? Answer is How do I get inside ODP undetected. Nyahahahaha. I am way smarter than most of you. *Pumping FIST in the AIR*:D

Either way thats fine. NO POINTS counted. :D WONDERFUL ! BRAVO !

Some people have no balls...
They are the same type of people who would smash your car window in the middle of the night because they have a gripe with you and run away...
Nuff said...

[Qryztufre]

I know that existing Editors are reading this, along with editalls, metas and the like. If one of you with access could please log into my old cat and pull out the unreviewed entry that was placed there for a Typo.... it *IS* magick (with a K).

Case in point:
dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Esoteric_and_Occult/Magick/Chats_and_Forums/

Sorry, but I never got that resolved (which I guess was something I should have thought of yesterday)


If this was real life, they would not start to insult us, or insult their audience. Nor would they entrench themselves defending an untenable position. Would their world really fall apart if they were required to send a recorded, dashboard warning before pulling the plug on someone, and hearing their explanation? DMOZ's Neanderthal faction seems to think so.

I started a thread asking about 'guidelines for appeal' and it does seem that there is no process for such an action. It also lists meta to editor warnings as OPTIONAL. For any that think I'm just making this up, check it out yourself:

http://dmoz.org/guidelines/meta/abuse.html#removing</nofollow>

Any editor let go has no means of appeal!

it does however say: All account removals are subject to staff review and appeal.

But there is no process for such a thing, and no official means for an editor to start the process. Further more, it does seem that the "appeals" process in that quote is a matter for Admin to start. Now how many editors actually know admin?

However, there were a few people that read my message and stood up saying "hey, maybe we DO need a change here". To all of you, a heart felt thanks...as such a change just may save you some day. Please find more internal support for such a cause.

One Meta however said that "warnings are given on a case by case basis" which, with all of the ex-editors out there saying they got NO WORD about them being let go, it makes me wonder if the only cases of official warnings are reserved for such editors in good standing with the inner sanctum that just happen to flub up in the public eye.

"They've been given a warning, no need for alarm"

(if editor would like to see the thread it's in ODP Culture, titled Guidelines for Appeal)

[Ivan Bajlo]

BTW - I wonder if any editor took the time to verify robjones' fabricated accusations that my ONE mistake was that I allegedly "re-cooled" my site "the third time" or the ONE where I allegedly "removed all its competitors?"

You think they didn't have enough time to forge the logs? By know they probably fixed them so instead of 10000+ it looks as if you only added dozen websites and all of them your own. ;)

Are you kidding me popotalk??? Not only is the above a lie, but it's clearly written by a DMOZ insider that no scruples making up lies about Annie. Anyone with half a brain will see right through it.

That would make this whole thing a planed show so that any editor not following party line would expose himself so they could be removed... this scenario would be believable only if I was one of the metas - hey, maybe I'm only pretending to be some guy from country that doesn't exist and both poptalk and helleborines are really evil metas. :p

Darn our cover has been blown... but now we have long list of people to remove and grandmaster Annie of the sacred meta order will now gives order what to do with these infidels. :D

[Ivan Bajlo]

I know that existing Editors are reading this, along with editalls, metas and the like. If one of you with access could please log into my

Good luck with that one, all my former categories are dead since my removal and few are still stuck in my test folder despite pleads to move them so the work isn't wasted... :mad:

But there is no process for such a thing, and no official means for an editor to start the process. Further more, it does seem that the "appeals" process in that quote is a matter for Admin to start. Now how many editors actually know admin?

Why does that surprise you? How can you even appeal when you can't even know why have you been removed in the first place???

Whole process was created to keep metas safe from any accountability (how can divine metas even make a mistake?) and removed editors from having any chances of appealing. :mad:

[popotalk]

Evidence from Meta/Admin Part1
Hey, Jude --

I ran across this address on a profile at http://forums.digitalpoint.com/ . Are you the same Jude I know at dmoz? Have you been posting at digitalpoint?
name witheld for privacy purpose but she will recognize this if she has no dementia.


It is not bad to be a member of another forum but DP is not good especially for starting editors like you. You might want to consider taking time off from posting in that forum. Only a few editors with experience dealing with people there are members. Just continue editing in your categories.

Theres one message after I have been logged out.
you act fast instead of consulting with "the bureaucracy."

[helleborine]

Here popo, that should explain it. (borrowed from http://www.religio.de/cudef.html, adapted by yours truly)

Their leader/s may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God/AOL.

They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God/metas/AOL if they leave; certain death at Armageddon or to be forever labelled as a lying, corrupt, disgruntled ex-editor; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process.

There will be great emphasis on loyalty to the group and its teachings. The lives of members will be totally absorbed into the group's activities. They will have little or no time to think for themselves because of physical and emotional exhaustion. This is also a vital part of the mind control process.

There will be total control over almost all aspects of the private lives of members. This control can be direct through communal living, or constant and repetitious teaching on "how to be a true Christian/editor" or "being obedient to leadership/meta". Members will look to their leaders for guidance in everything they do.

Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings is discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained.

Members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of "dobbing" on fellow members (including family) under the guise of looking out for "spiritual welfare".
They may be required to deliberately lie (like robjones?) (heavenly deception/theocratic strategy) or give up their lives by refusing some form of medical treatment.

Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats (Neb is the enforcer here?). Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives or have signed a "covenant" and feel threatened by this.

1. ABUSE OF INDIVIDUALITY They adopt a "groupness" mentality. They are not permitted to think for themselves apart from the group and only accept what they are told.

2. ABUSE OF INTIMACY Relationships with friends, relatives, spouses, children, parents etc are broken or seriously hampered.

3. ABUSE OF FINANCES Pressure to give all you can to the group.

4. "US VERSUS THEM" MENTALITY Isolation from the community in general. Anyone and everything outside the group is seen as "of the devil" or "unenlightened" etc. Their enemies now include former friends.

5. ABUSE OF TIME AND ENERGY The group controls and uses almost all the members time and energy in group activities. They are usually in a constant state of mental and physical exhaustion.

6. ABUSE OF FREE WILL They must unquestioning submit to the groups teachings and directions and their own free will is broken. Their "will" actually becomes the groups "will" without their realizing it.

[helleborine]

Crowbar should become a standup comic. He's adorable!!! He's invoking papal infaillibility. I love it.
You have a good point, revr, just out of fairness alone, but knowing the type of metas that we have, and the unimpeachable quality of their characters, the variety of their personalities and backgrounds, and the heavy trust that's been placed in them, I honestly don't see how any misjustice could be allowed to occur by every single one of them, especially when one dissent stops the whole process in its tracks.

And, the meta community has shown they are perfectly capable of and willing to police themselves, when neccessary, and removing a fellow meta that they've known for years, has to be one of the most painful and unpleasant things they'd have to do. They can be trusted.


Now that the laughter has subsided, serious business:
The Meta guidelines on Warning state in full:

Quote:
Warning Editors

The most important meta activities are combating abuses and spam, and taking corrective actions against behavior that seek to harm the directory. To facilitate these activities, Metas should use the dashboard message tool to issue warnings to wayward editors. Instances where the tool may be used include abusive editing, uncivil and inappropriate communications, and other harmful activities as specified in the editing guidelines.

When a dashboard warning is submitted, the warned editor can only continue editing after accepting the warning. All warnings are logged and subject to staff and meta review for appropriateness. While consensus is not required prior to issuing a warning, it's often helpful to get the input of others to ensure that a warning is an appropriate and necessary step.

To ensure proper self-regulation, Metas should avoid issuing warnings over e-mail, AIM, ICQ, and other external communication media.

I personally received no warning of any kind. I have no trouble believing that Annie didn’t, either. Before accusing me of lying about this... show proof.

Quote:
Account removal and permission reductions are serious matters. In many cases, abusive editors may be warned prior to removal if the Meta feels the person will end up editing in good faith and make positive overall contributions. However, the ODP does not benefit by retaining or coddling editors who are not intent on correcting their behavior or acting in anyone else's best interest but their own.

Notice that says "in many cases" and not "alaways' and also, "may be warned" and not "must be warned". It means that a warning prior to removal is discretionary and could be analyzed on a case-by-case basis.

Concerning all cases of removal -and also of warnings- which I witnessed during this time, I have always seen that decisions were made after having done as much as possible to avoid them, going back and forth in a direct communication with the editor.

I've noticed that no removed editor can feel surprised or ignore the reasons of a removal, despite of what the editor pretends in front of the internal/external communities. That's because of the structure of the process itself.
Incorrect. Not a thing was done to avoid canning me, there was zero back and forth, zero warning, and “what the editor pretends in front of the internal/external communities” doesn’t wash with me, because I know the truth about my dismissal.

If any case is the exception to the information blackout guideline, this is it.[...] Good people sometimes make bad choices. It'd be less unsettling for people to be disappointed that a beloved figure slipped off the straight and narrow than to wonder at length if somehow a wrong was perpetrated against her. Guidelines are called guidelines (instead of commandments) for a reason. This is a good time to exercise some managerial discretion and just lay out the facts in a clear matter of fact fashion. I don't know that it would be best in every case, but this one offers a compelling reason to put facts on the table and end debate. Failing to do so won't shake my opinion, I consider the problem to be unfortunate but over... but it might help out overall with others.


[...] what we now need is a system which is knwon and agreed by the community for removals, this doubt about what happened must not be allowed again.

So we need the procedures agreed and then be assured that procedures we all agreed have been followed. So there is transparency in the system but not in an individuals case.

[helleborine]

I think the forces for change have run out of steam. The rear guarde dug in its trenches, and letting the would-be reformers exhaust themselves.

God forbid the dinosaur should evolve, even the slightest bit, in a direction that can only be positive, and avoid some big, costly screw ups in the future, that lead to, for example, ex-editors with very persistent and persky disgruntlement.

I think it's hopeless. I had some hope, but not anymore. The agents of the status quo are at the top, they have no vision except to hang on to shreds of power for themselves, and no change, however minute, will ever occur.

No happy trails here. The slow-witted reptilian relic can go extinct itself.

[Qryztufre]

I think the forces for change have run out of steam. The rear guarde dug in its trenches, and letting the would-be reformers exhaust themselves.

God forbid the dinosaur should evolve, even the slightest bit, in a direction that can only be positive, and avoid some big, costly screw ups in the future, that lead to, for example, ex-editors with very persistent and persky disgruntlement.

I think it's hopeless. I had some hope, but not anymore. The agents of the status quo are at the top, they have no vision except to hang on to shreds of power for themselves, and no change, however minute, will ever occur.


No one ever said the fall of Rome would be a pleasant one, and as the city burns it's up to the populous to either stand up in unison to put the flames out, run for their lives, or be buried within the ashes..

I, and others ran, I guess this is the cowardly way out...but that's OK. It's also OK that my 27 edits did not amount to much. At least I didn't need to call people names to prove my point. I remained civil, I tried staying courteous, and I gave the opposition a chance.

Certain members of Dmoz *coughROBJONEScough* did little else but call names, skirt the actual issues, and be an all around meanies...and with people like that running around, is it really any wonder that insignificant editors with only a handful of edits under their belts leave? I mean, I'd have quit a REAL job for the same reasons...if a person can not feel pride in their work, or their employer, then that person should likely look for a new job...

(any Directory owners out there in need of an editor? I used to work at DMOZ ;) )

[helleborine]

I am sure that *coughROBJONEScough* fancies himself one of the bright lights of the Directory. He would in fact be right, if the ability to concoct large lies with ease was a criterion.

With 27 edits, you can congratulate yourself that you didn't waste precious minutes or even hours. If you had done more, you'd be kicking yourself, and be proportionally disgruntled.

I'll always known that the real reason for my dismissal was my disagreement over the deep linking of Rubylane stores (I believed that they should NOT be deeplinked) or my request for mediation against kctipton, who was, after all is said and done, the architect of my dismissal. It's not that one listing they used as an excuse, because even without my having a chance to explain it, I think they could have easily figured out that it was an honest mistake.

Yes, I can see Rome burning IN THE DISTANCE.

[popotalk]

robjones
item931 Wed 06 Jun 2007 2:16 Message item0
>> Do you think that your post makes us look good?<<

Do you seriously think I care what those foulmouthed trolls think of a post they can't see unless they obtain it by false means and can't print without breaching our rules? This is a private forum. The phrase that applies involves them and the horse they slipped in on.

As for your personal disapproval, you have a right to an opinion. I have a right to think it's at best ill-conceived.

ADDED: My my... he copied the post from here into the DP forum. That's one way of getting this thread back on the stated topic. It's a shame to lose a seasoned man of 27 edits who thinks we are supposed to kowtow to trolls at DP. Don't let the door hit you in the butt junior, and when you pick your NEXT name, buy a freakin vowel.

Wow !! A fantastic man with the cowboy hat, jeans and boots. A truly representative of Texas Best Real Estate (thats the business site) Pioneer of the KKK movement. Scumbag in Real Life. Heartless SOB !!
Ladies and Gentlemen that is your example of a good DMOZ Editor. :rolleyes:

[helleborine]

It's a shame to lose a seasoned man of 27 edits who thinks we are supposed to kowtow to trolls at DP.
Kowtow to what? To us? What???

Speaking for myself only, I hope that they adhere to the status quo as rigidly as possible, because that's the fastest path to their self-destruction. They are already catering to my aspirations with commendable zeal, religious fervor and tunnel vision. I applaud their stubborness and resistance to improvements. Die, ODP, die!

Haha.

They greatly fear that even infititesimal changes are dangerous and destructive influences from the infidels on the outside. Fascinating.

[popotalk]

*Cough* Bad or Good Realtor You Be The Judge ? - Has To Lie in ODP and Accuse People Not Good for Sales in Real Estate *Cough*.

Part of DMOZ profile
Here at the Open Directory Project I mostly edit Texas categories, History sites, and a couple of others. I've been an editor here since Sept 1999, and though I've been entrusted with directory-wide editing privs, I vaguely remember promising to use the super-powers for good, not evil.
.
not dp member so no report on attacking/harrassing.

[gboisseau]

Don't let the door hit you in the butt junior, and when you pick your NEXT name, buy a freakin vowel.

Let's see

Q r y z t u f r e = so the count is: 3 vowels, 6 consonants for Q
R o b j o n e s = so his count is 3 vowels, 5 consonants for the Texan

Q wins by a consonant!

Now lets see - g b o i s s e a u = 5 vowels and 4 consonants - skunky wins the Vowel War!!!

Isn't this the most r i d i c u l o u s post you have ever seen?

[helleborine]

As much as I dislike robjones' lack of regard for the truth and lack of scruples, lying to unjustly vilify others, I don't think it's fair for anyone to sabotage or hurt in any way his business and livelihood.

You have to feel sorry for the guy, because one day he'll realize what a monumental waste of time the ODP was, and he's going to want to take back that lost time and spend more of it with his family (if they haven't run away), his hobby (probably guns or a virus collection), and his horse (or donkey). He will be forced to come to terms with his mortality, the finite time we spend on earth, and wish he'd spent 10% of it cursing the ODP like us DP trolls, rather than contributed to a vanished collections of 0's and 1's.

Hey skunky... whassup... you're a funny guy today! When I switched from "uroboros" to "helleborine" I gained a vowel! Swweeeeeettttt...

[popotalk]

Lissa participated in the Avon Walk for Breast Cancer in May 2004 and 2005 in Washington D.C. Thanks to everyone who donated—she has raised over $5200 to date! She skipped 2006 since Luke arrived just a few weeks before the walk.
You walked and raised money for breast cancer and just understanding a sick comrade is very difficult ?

Damn it ! Wheres my French Fries " Damn I am Missing 2 French Fries ".

[gboisseau]

Damn it ! Wheres my French Fries " Damn I am Missing 2 French Fries ".

Looks like from your avatar, they may be up your nose. Try looking there. ;)

[popotalk]

Looks like from your avatar, they may be up your nose. Try looking there. ;)

Thats something I am still looking to sling the contents. Minnie, Minnie Miney, Moe. :D

[Qryztufre]

Q wins by a consonant!

To be f r a n k (1 & 4) I'm really unsure what username has to do with editing at all. It seems that when people must resort to such 'debate tactics' its generally due to a lack of anything more substantial.

I laid out my points as civilly as possible, he ignored most of those points and opted for petty and childish behaviour (such as name calling). It's also sad that he thinks (or even assumes) that I'll try making a new account. It should be obvious that I quit on a matter of principle. If DMOZ suddenly changes I may try again, but certainly not before then.

Though, heh...What do you think the reaction would be if I asked for reinstatement?

[Ivan Bajlo]

I personally received no warning of any kind. I have no trouble believing that Annie didn’t, either. Before accusing me of lying about this... show proof.

Incorrect. Not a thing was done to avoid canning me, there was zero back and forth, zero warning, and “what the editor pretends in front of the internal/external communities” doesn’t wash with me, because I know the truth about my dismissal.

Only communications I had unless we count my discussion here with brizzie but he was no longer active editor at that time was single warning, too bad I clicked Yes without saving content of that crap so I could post it here, sent reply to that warning and was removed few days later.

First part was about revealing content of the note (NOT identity of the editor for trolls lurking here), okay my fault, been too long on wiki and forgot about paranoid secrecy of useless information, second part was taking parts of the sentences from my posts here and using it to prove self-interests - same tactic they are using to prove Annie is bad - they couldn't find any evidence in my edits so they frame you with whatever they can find. :mad:

I think it's hopeless. I had some hope, but not anymore. The agents of the status quo are at the top, they have no vision except to hang on to shreds of power for themselves, and no change, however minute, will ever occur.

What are you saying? Of course change is coming it will be renamed Closed Directory Project and they'll start charging people openly $500 per link. :D

Wow !! A fantastic man with the cowboy hat, jeans and boots. A truly representative of Texas Best Real Estate (thats the business site) Pioneer of the KKK movement. Scumbag in Real Life. Heartless SOB !!
Ladies and Gentlemen that is your example of a good DMOZ Editor.

Darn no wonder I got kicked out, I got commies on my websites and they are shown in better light then Nazis and I even got few lines about Holocaust. :D

And I'm about to add some info on some Tuskegee airman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen) which got shot down over Yugoslavia and got rescued by commies... blacks and commies, I got a feeling my website might get removed very quickly. :rolleyes:

[Ivan Bajlo]

Though, heh...What do you think the reaction would be if I asked for reinstatement?

Same as mine when I naively sent my case to the admin, if your lucky it will be promptly deleted or they'll laugh at it but don't except to get any reply - ever. :mad:

[helleborine]

You weren't uncivil, quite the contrary, Q.

The ODP doesn't tolerate any dissent, no matter how civilized the tone. Your civility wasn't at fault. What was a fault is that you expressed disagreement with some of their pratices. That was a cardinal sin. Had you not quit, they would have shut the door in your face within hours. Regardless of your vowels.

When bldarter who is an admin (amazingly if AOL cares about DMOZ, or by design if it hopes for a quick self-destruction) replies to every one of your posts with "Quit trolling" you know that every single one of your edits goes through a fine tooth comb. One misstep, you're out. No warning, no explanation.

As for your reinstatement... your chances are as good as mine - but trust me it's for your own good.

[popotalk]

A crowbar post in DMOZ Forum

Quote:
And while it likely does not mean much, I quit. I do not like my name attached to this place, it mares my reputation more then Digital Point ever could. At least there, people are open and honest.
crowbar answers
Why does the air seem suddenly a lot fresher? Let's open the window again.

And crowbar you a member of this Association ? :eek:
The New York State Community Action Association

Pffft. Please could someone take my sandwich away. I am not in the mood to bite it as people are so hypocrites. :rolleyes:

Someone who uses a name of Steve Austin must be really a Village People Member. :D

[Qryztufre]

And while it likely does not mean much, I quit. I do not like my name attached to this place, it mares my reputation more then Digital Point ever could. At least there, people are open and honest.
crowbar answers
Why does the air seem suddenly a lot fresher? Let's open the window again.
[B]

I do apologize, it was 93 degrees yesterday, and I didn't shower till after I quit. I'm sorry ODP...

_________

Though I do wonder if this was another case of ignoring every point I made for a personal attack. Are these people really that unwilling to back up their illustrious establishment? Maybe unable? Is it really that difficult to be civil.

I do hope that by now this thread has been pointed too in their forums, and that the various "innocent" editors that have yet to form a proper opinion have seen such utter trash talking. In fact, I think I'll social book mark this thread in everything I'm a member of. I encourage the same thing for everyone else. Let's get the word out to all the editors that don't bother with the internal forums...let them see just who their colleagues are.

[minstrel]

Why does the air seem suddenly a lot fresher? Let's open the window again.

I told you previously. He and his sleazeball buddies have been sniffing the stench of the DMOZ cesspool for so long they can no longer tell which way the wind's blowing or where the stench originates.

[paidhosting]

I haven't talked with Annie for awhile and I am sorry to hear this since it was not long ago that a member of her family passed away from cancer. If you talk to her, just say hi for me and tell her, she shouldn't be upset or care. The DMOZ Mafia are just bunch of coward assholes anyway and who cares about such people's opinion.

Alright i will quote what she said , you might want to grab ur phone and dial 911 cause when i find out where u live u gonaa get that slap :p

[20:34] me: annie gworld said hi :)
[20:35] compostannie: give him a hug for me, then slap him for staying away from my messenger for so long



Lol Minstrel ur improving my vocabulary day by day. Merci.

I told you previously. He and his sleazeball buddies have been sniffing the stench of the DMOZ cesspool for so long they can no longer tell which way the wind's blowing or where the stench originates.

[gworld]

As much as I dislike robjones' lack of regard for the truth and lack of scruples, lying to unjustly vilify others, I don't think it's fair for anyone to sabotage or hurt in any way his business and livelihood.


Are you sure DMOZ is not his business? Real-estate sites are one of the more corrupt areas of DMOZ. ;)

[Freewebspace]

Its good news for me that editors are resigning as

I can have some of the editors in my directory!

[helleborine]

Are you sure DMOZ is not his business? Real-estate sites are one of the more corrupt areas of DMOZ. ;)

I stand corrected.

bldarter came out of the trenches to announce that Annie had received a "dashboard warning."

Since robjones can make up huge lies with pomp and gusto to slander ex-editors in order to prop up the credibility of metas that live in houses with wheels, I don't think doing the same is beneath bldarter. If there was dashboard communication I would bet the farm that it was as ambiguous as the purgatory, and I doubt it was meant to be understood as a warning of impending dismissal.

I am still waiting for the editors to look up my record, see that the only site I cooled wasn't mine and therefore I did not re-cool my website 3 times as charged by robjones, and see that I never removed my competitors. If they do check, they will be satisfied that robjones is an egregious liar, and hopefully will give little credibility to any assertion coming from him, past, present or future.

[minstrel]

Its good news for me that editors are resigning as

I can have some of the editors in my directory!

This thread is not about your directory or any other "links factory" directory. You have a whole subforum for that sort of thing - please use it.

[Ivan Bajlo]

I am still waiting for the editors to look up my record, see that the only site I cooled wasn't mine and therefore I did not re-cool my website 3 times as charged by robjones, and see that I never removed my competitors. If they do check, they will be satisfied that robjones is an egregious liar, and hopefully will give little credibility to any assertion coming from him, past, present or future.

You are really an optimist. :D

[minstrel]

People like bldarter and robjones are pathetic - transparent liars defaming and bullying anyone with principles and values in a sad attempt to defend and protect the "integrity" (sic) of their little after-school old boys club. Attacking Annie was simply the last - and most dusgusting - straw. But in truth it's nothing new for them.

[Arnie]

That all reminds me to "Le Miserable"

[minstrel]

That all reminds me to "Le Miserable"

1. That's "Les Miserables".

2. What does that have to do with the topic in this thread?

[popotalk]

New ODP Troll by the name of Nil just registered today and reading post. :rolleyes:

[dogbows]

Ever since I was informed of Annie’s removal and pointed to this thread, I have had a long debate with myself about whether to post. As you can see myself lost the debate. For there was another “dmoz scandal of the year” a few years back that totally compromised the whole of editor removal based on self-interest, self-promotion, or favoritism. Because of the events that took place in that other scandal, there is no longer any justification whatsoever in the removal of any editor---past, present, or future based on these grounds---guilty or not.

At the time of this previous scandal I was an editor totally disgusted by the whole situation and had my mouse over the removal button at least once every day. I only hesitated because other editors who had more inside knowledge of the situation kept persuading me to wait because those editors were putting their editorship on the line to argue the injustice that had been committed against the editing community as a whole. In the end they lost the debate but were convinced that they done all they could do, and the mass walkout never occurred. To my knowledge only one editor who happened to be an administrator had enough principle to resign and never look back. At that time I was not informed of the real reason they lost the debate, but even “I” was guilty of not following my gut instincts to resign then and there. It took another issue to bring me to the point of resignation. However, once I found out the reason behind this evil crime, which was long after I had resigned, I have regretted deeply that I did not resign at that time. The reason gave more ethical cause to resign than the abuse itself. The reason is what compromised editor removal of any sort based on the same grounds.

Because of the status of the guilty editor, he was allowed to do an end-run around the whole editing community to perform the ultimate in editor abuse of all time. Being the “founder” and “original owner” of what is now known as the Open Directory Project, he was in a position to request and be granted special permission from the “current owners” to flood the directory with deep links to his own site for the sole purpose of increasing the value in order to reap huge profits. So because he had “special” permission, in the end his removal was overturned in a matter of days and he was granted full reinstatement to his previous status. The only good that came from this situation was the fact that editors were now allowed to remove these deep links if found to have insufficient relevancy to any given category. The sad truth is that the website itself contained zero, nada, absolutely no “unique content” whatsoever. It is not even a listable site. So now you see where no justification can be found in any editor’s removal for the same crime unless the most evil abuser of all time is removed and all his websites banned from the directory. Corruption begats corruption and when corruption of this magnitude is found at the very top, there is no hope.

I only have one more point to make and that is that Annie very well could have received a dash warning without knowing it was there. I don’t know her method of editing, but I do know that as an editor I seldom logged-in to my dash. An editor can log-in to edit from any category that they have permission to edit. Since I edited mostly in the lower categories, it was much more convenient to have the categories that I frequented bookmarked and go directly to those categories therefore bypassing my dash.

In conclusion I apologize for such a lengthy post. But since my sweetheart is on vacation partying it up with Floosies, I borrowed his long-winded cap. LOL

[Ivan Bajlo]

Topix scandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Directory_Project#Controversy_and_criticism) is even covered at wiki so no need to be shy about it. ;)

It nice to now that I have been accused of self-interests by the same people who allowed thousands of worthless links to be added. :rolleyes:

[helleborine]

I gather you are referring to rskrenta. Thank you for taking the time to write out the story; it is new to me, at least. It makes me wonder what sort of deal the ODP has with Rubylane.com, such that no matter how many editors over the years independently realize that it's receiving special treatment over other websites that work on the same model, the only counter-argument ever brought forth by the powers that be is a short, curt "Rubylane stores are listable, that's it, that's all."

The ODP compromised its integrity over tens of thousands of rather worthless links, but when they are that many... they do add up.

I see your point, which is, if that was not cause for removal of an editor, then what is? There is a simple explation. Double standards. The ODP will let a few bigwigs walk all over them, and I am sure that AOL has chosen what it felt would be a pliable and amoral body of admins. In contrast, straying minions and minor mistakes are handled with a ruthlessness that is just plain cruel and inhumane.

[popotalk]

No need to hold your breath just spit it out. Two sides of a coin and might need to choose. ;)

[gworld]

I see your point, which is, if that was not cause for removal of an editor, then what is? There is a simple explation. Double standards. The ODP will let a few bigwigs walk all over them, and I am sure that AOL has chosen what it felt would be a pliable and amoral body of admins. In contrast, straying minions and minor mistakes are handled with a ruthlessness that is just plain cruel and inhumane.

It is not a double standard, it is a simple standard that they are fine with abuse as long as the "senior" editors get their share and you are useful for them but they get rid of "independent" corrupt or if you make problem for them.

One of the "pillars" of "integrity" in attacking Annie is robjones, may be people should look at his categories and see how many interesting "edits" they can find there. ;)

[Qryztufre]

Hotest topic on DP at the moment? 4,352 views as of this writing (which may be up to an hour off, with several posts in that time).

I wonder if this source is considered "credible" in the eyes of Wiki?

Uninhibited discussion of ODP's purported shortcomings has become more commonplace on mainstream Webmaster discussion forums.[citation needed] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)

As I'm pretty sure this is a webmaster forum, and that this thread at least is outlining at least one of the ODP purported shortcomings.

[popotalk]

This might be of interest to readers. Paidhosting you made a name for yourself. :)

Resource Zone Editors Only


#1 February 16, 2007, 01:50 AM
pvgool

fake DMOZ Resource Zone

I noticed this site http://www.dmoz-resource-zone.com/
see also http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=245366

By its texts it is pretending to have the same status as Resource Zone.
Do we need to stop him? And how can we stop him?

Last edited by pvgool : February 16, 2007 at 02:04 AM.
==================
#2 February 16, 2007, 02:14 AM
photofox

Hmmm. I don’t know what we can do? They are walking a thin line though, the name they picked is too close to the name of this forum IMO.

===================
#3 February 16, 2007, 03:55 AM
crowbar

Looks like it is run by a webmaster/webmasters, and they maybe have two ODP editors in their ranks to make it sound legitimate. The admin is not an editor but a webmaster.

The only editor I recognize is compostannie and from our forum threads I think I read that she resigned from it, but it looks like they kept her editor name in there for legitimacy.

They apparently want to give status reports over there, so that could be a problem for us, posters here might get confused. I see now, that they’re offering editors incognito status, if they want to join.

I don’t see them gettin very far, as long as real editors don’t join, or don’t give real status reports. Looks like they’re just getting started. Ex-editors with an axe to grind might be a problem, but it’s probably going to end up being another SEO bitching site.

==================
#4 February 16, 2007, 05:04 AM
sfromis

Looks like a reaction against this forum persistently rejecting being helpful to webmasters wanting to ask about where/whether their site is listable.

==================
#5 February 16, 2007, 05:54 AM
crowbar

We’re in a cache 22 here. We can’t give posters the kind of help that 90% of them are coming here for, and it’s difficult to find a way to improve relations between editors and the public without doing so.

Lacking specific help, I seriously think that what’s more important than anything else is the perception that a poster leaves here with. If we don’t give them what they want, but they leave here empty handed and smiling, we’ve accomplished our purpose.
Not all of us have the talent to be firm, but friendly and relaxed at the same time. Many replies, including some of my own, are gruff and tense or formal, creating a similar response from the poster, which is counter productive, though I’ve seen improvements in our responses.

We can’t let posters walk all over us, but, the impression they leave here with gets touted out on the web, I think.

==================
#6 February 16, 2007, 06:51 AM
Eric-the-Bun

It is very interesting reading their tentative ‘guidelines’, seeing their assumptions etc. I think they have a reasonable grasp on aspects of the downside of running something like resource-zone .

However I don’t see how they can deliver anything unless they have enough editors with the right sort of privs to give status checks etc. I don’t think that there would be many editors that would chain themselves to the treadmill that is envisaged for it to be successful.

Though I am a volunteer editor, my opinions do not constitute an official ODP statement.
I reserve the right to be human and make mistakes.
Private messages asking for submission status or preferential treatment will be ignored.

==================
#7 February 16, 2007, 06:59 AM
crowbar

Well, if they do, they’ll soon discover they have a new full time job, I would imagine, . I wasn’t here when RZ did it, but, it doesn’t take much thinking to realize what would happen once the floodgates are opened. And then, the next question, why not? and then a little arguing, leading to “Can you tell me how to fix it, so it will get listed? “ and on and on.

Next thing you know, you got a personal listing service instead of a Directory.

Last edited by crowbar : February 16, 2007 at 07:06 AM.

==================
#8 February 16, 2007, 07:16 AM
pvgool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-the-Bun
I don’t think that there would be many editors that would chain themselves to the treadmill that is envisaged for it to be successful.

At this moment there a 5 editors signed up fot that forum
someone calling himself michael (who is one of the 2 founders of the forum)
someone calling himself billy (I have a suspision which editor this is, a SEO person with only access to 1 small Regional category and who - IMHO - just makes enough edits not to time out)
someone calling himself shredder
compostannie
sarahk

and that on a complete memberlist of 14 people
with 2 people who by their name are not editors anymore (I guess these are 2 of the Digitalpoint regulars)

==================
#9 February 16, 2007, 07:18 AM
pvgool

Quote:
Originally Posted by crowbar
“Can you tell me how to fix it, so it will get listed? “ and on and on.

Next thing you know, you got a personal listing service instead of a Directory.

which would ofcourse lead to editor abuse

==================
#10 February 16, 2007, 08:05 AM
crowbar

Since I’ve been hangin out over here, pvgool, I’m getting so I can recognize some of the slippery slopes a good idea can lead to, but, I missed that one.

It would be real easy to originally join an outfit like that, thinking you were going to be helpful, and only a very tiny step to go over the line and accept money for it.

Editors can’t afford to have even the appearance of being suspect, let alone actually doing it. I’d rather be right here, where I’m monitored and supervised, and can be investigated if neccessary.

I think one of those editors might possibly be dogbows, an ex-editor, I don’t know that for sure, I just suspect it from a PM he sent me. I’ve saved all my PMs, in case an admin or another meta wants to look at them.

Last edited by crowbar : February 16, 2007 at 08:22 AM.

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#11 February 16, 2007, 08:46 AM
pvgool

I was’t thinking about that final step (money).
But listing websites because of people asked you to do so in forums is in my eyes already abuse. And helping people to get their sites listable is probably already on the wrong site of the line (atleast if you do so in your function as DMOZ editor)

==================
#12 February 16, 2007, 09:22 AM
sfromis

The lines are getting blurred..... Listing some good site after participating in same forum thread as the owner is not abuse. Depending on the circumstances it may not be a good strategy, especially if the listability is not unquestionable. And if the editor has some sort of gain (including popularity, being “the good guy”) from it, some sort of “behavioral modification” may be relevant.

==================
#13 February 16, 2007, 09:43 AM
crowbar

Well, I listed one charitable organization site from here, that I “accidently” found in his profile, but, I kept my mouth shut about it, and there was a lawyer site that I readded to the unreviewed in a cat, that was lost during the crash, but, I left an editor note stating I didn’t feel comfortable about reviewing it myself, because I got it from over here, and we don’t do that.

There was one other site that I did review and list in Regional, I forget why, but I think it was because it had been submitted to a Topical, and qualified to be in Regional also, so I felt comfortable doing that. There was another compelling reason, also, but I can’t remember what it was.

I think if an editor finds a listable site over here, in someones profile, it’s perfectly legitimate to list it, but, as a practical matter as well as a moral one, I don’t think it’s a good idea to, because then it looks like we’re granting a request from here.

None of these three were asking to be listed, they had other questions, if I remember right. They’re in my detailed editing logs, so, they can be easily checked.

Last edited by crowbar : February 16, 2007 at 10:04 AM.
==================
#14 February 16, 2007, 09:55 AM
pvgool

Listing site an editor found on a forum is no problem at all. But I clearly stated “because people asked you to do so”. Which was only a reaction to crowbar’s post (tem #7).

But this is all getting a little bit off-topic

==================
#15 February 16, 2007, 10:22 AM
crowbar

Understood, and I agree wholeheartedly, . I was just being open about my activities over here.

In any case, they probably look a lot like RZ because they’re using the same vBulletin® Version 3.6.4, and covering the same topics. The name, though, is deceiving to the general public, but, the ODP staff lawyers have to take care of that, and the meta community would have to give editors a warning about participating over there, what’s allowed, and what isn’t (like helping submitters rig their sites for inclusion).

==================
#16 February 16, 2007, 11:06 AM
pvgool

It is already going to far (atleast in my opinion). They started helping editors to create good applications.
http://www.dmoz-resource-zone.com/fo...hread.php?t=23

==================
#17 February 16, 2007, 11:29 AM
Eric-the-Bun

The forum policy here is clear that no one can expect listing as a result of posting at RZ. If an editor subsequently checks it out and finds a site worth listing, it is up to them, provided that there is no public connection that embarasses RZ or other editors. Same goes for visiting any forum or site (what the eye does not see...).

The problem with the ‘alternative’ is that they are launching the site on the basis of a core of dmoz editors who are going to be ‘helpful’ and are deliberately setting themselves up as a competitor to the Resource Zone rather than as a complimentary site. Not very wise.

I can see no harm in advice on whether a site is listable or not (spoon feeding) but the response to a ‘yes it is listable’ will be ‘ok list it then’. The success of the forum will depend on results and the results most SEO’ers want is jumping the queue. As the editors are going to be ‘helpful’ and the site is looking to be direct competitors to us, any site listed as a result of posting in that forum could be seen as editor abuse.

The ‘Are you Dmoz Editor Material ?’ section is somewhat worrying as it will be difficult not to raise anticipation and raise the spectre of who is writing the applications (gworld?). I predict tears before it is all over.

I think another problem is that its geared to ‘webmasters’ not ‘someone who happens to have a website’. I know that I am a webmaster in that I have a website, but it is not the first thing I would describe myself as. The site is responding to the complaints of those who are producing websites as a business.

I must admit some anticipation to see how it will go - I love the ban warnings all over the place and the ability of proven editors to clobber posters with infractions leading to bans ( This is obviously to satisfy our power-crazed natures. ). It appears that you have to accept the perceived DP wisdom of evil metas, irrational bans on sites and the ability of outsiders to improve the ODP through forum postings.

==================
#18 February 16, 2007, 11:36 AM
freestyler

I, for one, am excited about an alternative to R-Z, especially if it’s run by a Dmoz editor. I think R-Z isn’t taking advantage of the positive impact it can have on people’s opinions of editors and Dmoz in general. It’s nice to have a forum that’s not overly moderated, not to restrictive on the help it offers, has very little micro-managing, and isn’t too quick to close threads because the moderators don’t like the opinions being expressed. Hopefully, this new forum will be everything R-Z isn’t, but isn’t to the point where anything goes like Digital Point. No offense to the nice people that post here.

Also, why would AOL’s legal department get involved in R-Z matters? I was under the impression that this forum is a separate entity from Dmoz and is, in fact, NOT an official Dmoz forum. No editor has a right to speak officially for Dmoz or other editors, therefor the opinions expressed here are those of the respective editors, and their opinions don’t represent mine.

There’s nothing wrong with competition, it’s good for the end users when they have more than one choice, and I hope the editors that post at this new forum will give a better impression of Dmoz editors than what people will find at R-Z.

==================
#19 February 16, 2007, 11:56 AM
crowbar

This RZ might not be official, freestyler, but it does have the approval and input of staff and the meta community, and what you might like has been already tried and shut down for good reason, .

==================
#20 February 16, 2007, 12:02 PM
pvgool

> There’s nothing wrong with competition, it’s good for the end users when they have more than one choice

I find it strange that we have to tell editors that webmasters are not our “end users”. But to be honest I can’t remember to have seen many (if any) of our real users asking questions here.

==================
#21 February 16, 2007, 12:43 PM
Eric-the-Bun

> There’s nothing wrong with competition, it’s good for the end users when they have more than one choice
It is not too good for users if they end up being confused between this forum (see title) and the new forum (see title). I think the impressions are not based on what it might become but on what it is and how it presents itself now.

There is nothing wrong with trying something new (or retrying something old), provided the rules are not broken, but the raison d’etre seems to be more anti than creating something unique and new. The problem with the anti-attitude is that it causes unnecessary friction.

==================
#22 February 16, 2007, 01:10 PM
freestyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by pvgool
> There’s nothing wrong with competition, it’s good for the end users when they have more than one choice

I find it strange that we have to tell editors that webmasters are not our “end users”. But to be honest I can’t remember to have seen many (if any) of our real users asking questions here.

How weird that you thought I was talking about people who might want to browse Dmoz looking for sites to visit. Sorry, I gave you that impression. I’m talking about people who might find these types of forums interesting, usually webmasters. I’m very aware of who Dmoz’s “end users” are. R-Z is not Dmoz.org.

==================
#23 February 16, 2007, 01:19 PM
crowbar

Looks like pretty slim pickins over there, the admin needs to use spellcheck and learn how to write a full sentence, the ODP editors seem a little shy of using their real editor names, and they don’t seem to be too anxious to participate much. (if they’re really still members at all)

Most of the advice they’re handing out is pretty bogus and unhelpful. You might say, no real content. Right now, it looks like they’re just fumbling around.

I do like the friendly atmosphere, and I think we’d be wise to emulate that attitude over here, as I’ve mentioned before, but other than that, it’s looking pretty lame over there so far.

It’s kind of fun to read, though, . Let’s see if freestyler signs up using his real editor name.

Last edited by crowbar : February 16, 2007 at 01:34 PM.

==================
#24 February 16, 2007, 01:51 PM
freestyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by crowbar
It’s kind of fun to read, though, . Let’s see if freestyler signs up using his real editor name.

You don’t have to talk about me like I’m not in the room.

But, if you really care, I usually don’t use my editor name over the Internet on any message board; not many people at soap forums care about Dmoz, you know. I usually go by a version of my real name, and I’m a woman.

Whether or not I sign-up would be my business, sorry.

==================
#25 February 16, 2007, 02:09 PM
freestyler

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-the-Bun
>
There is nothing wrong with trying something new (or retrying something old), provided the rules are not broken, but the raison d’etre seems to be more anti than creating something unique and new. The problem with the anti-attitude is that it causes unnecessary friction.
regards

Now, that you’ve mentioned it, I’ve taken the time to read most of the posts on that forum and I see nothing that would indicate that it’s anti-Dmoz, anti-R-Z, maybe, but not anti-Dmoz, and I certainly don’t see any bad attitudes over there. The first thing I look for before I register for a forum is how the members treat each other, and especially the new members; I wouldn’t have a problem with registering with that forum, it’s exactly the kind of atmosphere I like and the people posting there come off as very friendly. I also like the helpful suggestions regarding site listability. So, far, I haven’t read anything that would be considered bad, or incorrect, information regarding what Dmoz is and does. It’s exactly the kind of forum I like so far and will keep an eye on it in the future. I’m desperately bitting my tongue on the part I put in bold.

Regarding this quote of yours, Ericthebun, in item17,

Quote:
If an editor subsequently checks it out and finds a site worth listing, it is up to them, provided that there is no public connection that embarasses RZ or other editors.

Are you actually implying that editors have an obligation to R-Z? I hope I’m interpreting it wrongly, because my obligation is to dmoz.org, not resource-zone.com.

Last edited by freestyler : February 16, 2007 at 02:12 PM.

[helleborine]

Resource Zone Editors Only
You're spying on RESOURCE-ZONE???? Have you no shame. You are stigmatized with the double embarassment of dmoz editorship AND resource-zone membership? Your mother must be disppointed...

Too funny...

[helleborine]

I wonder if this source is considered "credible" in the eyes of Wiki?

Of course it is! The thread contains undisputed quotes from their internal fora.

[gworld]

You're spying on RESOURCE-ZONE???? Have you no shame. You are stigmatized with the double embarassment of dmoz editorship AND resource-zone membership? Your mother must be disppointed...

Too funny...

It is actually the mother of some editors who should be ashamed of giving birth to such jerks. ;)

Crowbar posting to Annie in Feb. before Annie removal:


Your trustworthiness and judgement is unquestionable in my book



Well, it’s good to know we have a trustworthy editor over there, with her eyes wide open (posting about Annie joining the other forum- my comment).


Crowbar posting after Annie removal:


If an abuser is caught, then attack those who caught him, or the system that allowed it, but, by no means hold the abuser personally responsible.

What many of you want are all the juicy details, so you can make your own judgement. My comment is that you're not entitled to it. Become a meta, and then you can look into it, but until that time, trust the people who have been given that entitlement, they've earned it.




The only thing I can say about Annie, Laisha, or any other editor (including myself) is that no matter how many times you go to church or donate to charities, once you rob the bank, you're a bank robber. Unfortunately, it's not what you were that matters, but what you are.


It seems the word JERK doesn't even start to describe this guy. :rolleyes:

[Qryztufre]

Crowbar posting to Annie in Feb. before Annie removal:

Crowbar posting after Annie removal:


It seems the word JERK doesn't even start to describe this guy. :rolleyes:

I recall both quotes while still an editor, and any editor still around could likely verify both now...unless of course they get changed to save face.

It really does seem to me that the 'bad apples' of the ODP all hang out at RZ. I bet there is a super secret forum there specifically for discussing things that would otherwise raise all sorts of flags...but then, that's speculation. Regardless though, it should be obvious that many of these people are two faced. If any editor claims these people as friends, they would be wise to take a step back and look how CompostAnnie was treated!

[Ivan Bajlo]

I wonder if this source is considered "credible" in the eyes of Wiki?

What is Reliable source for wiki is very hard to determine best is to ask Jimbo. :D

You're spying on RESOURCE-ZONE???? Have you no shame. You are stigmatized with the double embarassment of dmoz editorship AND resource-zone membership? Your mother must be disppointed...

So many spies... poor dmoz... no wonder they are so paranoid. So when do we start posting all those meta forum threads we have copied? :D

[Ivan Bajlo]

It seems the word JERK doesn't even start to describe this guy. :rolleyes:

Don't insult him, he is only doing his job at Ministry of Truth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Truth): "Annie was never honest editor, she was corrupt from day one, metas attempted to help her for years but failed and decided to remove her." :p

[dogbows]

To helleborine: Yes, I was indeed talking about skrenta.
To Ivan: Good gosh, Ivan, even you should know me well enough to know I don't have a shy bone in my body.
To PooPooButt: Thanks for letting me know which editor thought I was affiliated with the new resource-zone. Until I was accused of being a member I didn't even know the site existed. I am not and never have been a member of that forum to anyone who cares.

For the record: The reason for my personal debate about posting is simply that I actually have a life that does not include anything to do with ODP. I have made it a point to distance myself as much as possible from all forums related to or post about the ODP whether good or bad. The directory is a lost cause for which I had just as soon forget was ever a part of my life.

[Ivan Bajlo]

To PooPooButt: Thanks for letting me know which editor thought I was affiliated with the new resource-zone. Until I was accused of being a member I didn't even know the site existed. I am not and never have been a member of that forum to anyone who cares.

From Ministry of Truth: dogbows was never honest editor and has been working against DMOZ from first day, spying for bunny years before he started his website. :D

Talk about conspiracy dozens of editor infiltrating DMOZ for years so they could bring it down... reminds of certain scammer which posted fake job ad and had hundreds of people do free translations for him when similar forum thread started I posted his identity details and that he was already charged with all sorts of felonies (yes, I'm real scum :p) so his reaction was to start bashing me that I worked in his company and stole a laptop (could really use one so if anyone has one... :D), in the end he become so paranoid to accuse that I faked entire thread and hundreds of nicknames, same scammers seems to have later become admin of that same forum so he could prevent same thing from happening to him again.

The directory is a lost cause for which I had just as soon forget was ever a part of my life.

I know that but I'm like vulture gathering over corps. :o

[helleborine]

I have made it a point to distance myself as much as possible from all forums related to or post about the ODP whether good or bad. The directory is a lost cause for which I had just as soon forget was ever a part of my life.
I tried to do the same, but what they did to Annie broke my resolve! They are a lost cause indeed, they have demonstrated this over and over again. I do hope to turn up and expose them to full light with every major screwup, for a long, long time. If only as a reminder that when you do people wrong, the blowback is not always only short-term pain. It could be a persistent agony, haha.

[Qryztufre]

I tried to do the same, but what they did to Annie broke my resolve! They are a lost cause indeed, they have demonstrated this over and over again. I do hope to turn up and expose them to full light with every major screwup, for a long, long time. If only as a reminder that when you do people wrong, the blowback is not always only short-term pain. It could be a persistent agony, haha.

I think it would be wonderful if we could find more editors to relay their stories. See how big this really can get.

I think that the better majority of those let go are likely silent, just like the majority that stay say nothing. It takes a certain amount of courage to stand up, and such courage is something I applaud.

They can't discredit us all with soul language and lies. Eventually things will come to an end, as each additional Editor comes forward, that is potentially one more editor that remains saying "OMG, them too?!?!?"

When enough nerves have been struck, a nervous breakdown will follow.

[dogbows]

Annie, I know you are not logging into this forum, but just in case you are following this thread as a guest. I am taking this opportunity to openly remind you that you do still hold the position as Editor-in-Chief of another although tiny niche directory. Once you feel better, there is nothing I would like better than to see you take that little bull by the horns and run with it!

[minstrel]

It is actually the mother of some editors who should be ashamed of giving birth to such jerks. ;)

Crowbar posting to Annie in Feb. before Annie removal:

Crowbar posting after Annie removal:

It seems the word JERK doesn't even start to describe this guy. :rolleyes:

How about slimy backstabbing treacherous unprincipled opportunistic sycophant?

[gboisseau]

How about slimy backstabbing treacherous unprincipled opportunistic sycophant?

Not crowbar!! :D

[Ivan Bajlo]

I think it would be wonderful if we could find more editors to relay their stories. See how big this really can get.

Don't hope for much most editors simply got fed up and quit on there own and forgot about DMOZ long time ago, only few die hards optimists like annie, gboisseau... stayed on the sinking boat hoping for a miracle. Many removed editors also forgot about DMOZ i.e. ViciousSummer (http://www.viciousenterprises.com/summersblog/2006/04/dmoz-is-such-joke.html). So that leaves only few grudge holding bastards who want revenge I mean justice! :o

How about slimy backstabbing treacherous unprincipled opportunistic sycophant?

So that was the real reason - I was removed because DMOZ was just too small for two of us! :D

[popotalk]

I only stayed quiet because of Annie. I even met some of them personally in a FORUM. I cant say anything about the OTHERS that I have met because they are quiet for now. One thing for sure when you say that your a FRIEND and NOT STAND UP and defend your FRIEND while their BEATING her DOWN is a QUESTION MARK to ME. :mad:
I dont speak anymore of my removal, my avatar doesnt fit in there and I want it. :D

Now back to recent DMOZ Forum Posts.


crowbar
item957 Thu 07 Jun 2007 13:38 Message item0

I don't know what trolling is, but I stand by all three quotes. I don't see anything false about them.

In any case, I think I'll take some good advice and get back to editing, this really isn't any of my business, and you probably don't want hear anything that doesn't support your cause.

For the record, though, my comments were more about the system and the trust we have in the meta community. I have no opinion about annie or yourself, it's none of my business, and I've stated several times that your specific situation is a private matter between you and the meta community. How much more neutral could I be?

Some of it was in reference to our posts being quoted at DP, which is abuse of confidentiality, it had nothing to do with annie.

I do have some specific information about annies activities, from annie herself, but, I will continue to keep my mouth shut about them as being her business, and no one elses.

And you know damn well crowbar about what a TROLL is and what is the meaning of a LYING SCUMBAG. This is important crowbar : if you only knew what others say about you behind your back you'd go crawl under a rock and cry.

[helleborine]

Interesting. He has "no opinion" but he has "specific information about Annie's activities" - strange comibination...

Why do I have this nagging impression that crowbar did have, at some time, a very strong, and unfavorable opinion? Maybe it's posts like the ones below?

Getting 5 metas agreeing on a removal has to mean there more than just a little smoke, there's probably a regular ole weiner roast goin with lots of fire.[...]Not much need to talk to the fox when he's got a chicken in his mouth.

The only thing I can say about Annie, Laisha, or any other editor (including myself) is that no matter how many times you go to church or donate to charities, once you rob the bank, you're a bank robber. Unfortunately, it's not what you were that matters, but what you are.

[popotalk]

Originally Posted by crowbar the future admin
The only thing I can say about Annie, Laisha, or any other editor (including myself) is that no matter how many times you go to church or donate to charities, once you rob the bank, you're a bank robber. Unfortunately, it's not what you were that matters, but what you are.
Yeah Robin Hood is my HERO.

[gworld]

How about slimy backstabbing treacherous unprincipled opportunistic sycophant?

I wasn't aware that you know crowbar, it seems you know him very well. :D

[paidhosting]

[QUOTE=popotalk;3381395]This might be of interest to readers. Paidhosting you made a name for yourself. :)

[quote]

Making a name for myself is not a goal , since i have been in company of ivan for so long now, i think i will making a "Mark" is my goal:p.

Anyways Editors Experiences (http://www.dmoz-resources.com/zone/forumdisplay.php?f=38) is new thread I added to puny forums called dmoz resources (http://www.dmoz-resources.com/zone/) , so go ahead if you were or are editor feel free to indulge yourself no restrictions to the special ones :D .

Will start reading what you posted now :).


Edit: Alright i read the discussions they had.

freestyler seems to be the smartest of the bunch that are quoted, along with somewhat eric-the-... . Those forums were never started to bash ODP and never will take that route either cause its not odps fault that its filled with corrupt and power hungry metas.

But that was when forums were launched but would like to see what the members are saying now, cause its good enough time to base some judgments now dont u think ?

Anyways what i do not understand if R-Z is not the official forums as they claim who the hell gave them right to include a link to their forums at DMOZ itself owned by AOL. aka at http://dmoz.org/guidelines/

Quote : Non-editors should consult the ODP Public Forum, where editors are available to answer any questions you have about the ODP.

Ok is that right? To included a url to forums run by the person who probably inserted the url,is that not called favoritism ? Whoever included that link should be the one removed not Annie. And i doubt it was any AOL Staff.Some meta for sure. And hey metas if you are so much against favoritism you better remove that forum url else thats gonaa keep slapping you guys in your faces.

Think about it, on a site owned by AOL you insert your forums url ? Was it Vbmain or motsa that inserted the shameless link there? And by the way what help does that RZ offers, all members here and everwhere i go say is "It stinks" or "Its piece of shit" and have not heard anything +ve about the same and yet on the guidelines page of dmoz they dare to put their url.

[gworld]

freestyler seems to be the smartest of the bunch that are quoted, along with somewhat eric-the-...

LOL. :D:D

Thanks for the laugh, you obviously don't know who you are talking about. ;)

[popotalk]

Here is what kind of people the ODP has. Freestyler you have given me a clear view of what a 2 Face Bi*** is all about.

#39 February 16, 2007, 07:45 PM
freestyler

Originally Posted by crowbar
Well you weren’t there at that moment, freestyler. My apologies, ma’am. If you sign up representing yourself as an editor, why hide your editor name as if you were ashamed, I would think it would be helpful to you in that particular forum.
Freestyler
Firstly, I said I might register, never said anything about posting.

Originally Posted by crowbar
What you do as an editor is your business and the meta communities business, not mine, but any misconduct by any editor reflects back on all editors, so, I do have a right to be concerned, and you sound like a loose cannonball, .
Freestyler
You seem to make highly offensive remarks like this when you don’t agree with someone. Too bad you’re suspicious of everyone who doesn’t agree with your views. If you have a problem with anything I’ve said then fill out an abuse report, because I certainly don’t have to be apart the groupthink that goes on here at R-Z. Good luck grasping for those straws. Surely you can have a rational conversation without insinuating “traitor” to everyone who disagrees with you? Apparently, judging from some comments on the Internal forums, I’m not alone in my assessment of R-Z. But, we have communicated by PM in the past and also judging from your posts on the Internal forums I’d have to say that we have absolutely nothing in common.

...actually, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised at your attitude toward me when I think about the allegations people on this forum have made against other editors who disagreed....Good luck with your very long R-Z posting career, you’re fitting right in and thanks for affirming how much I’m beginning to hate this place.


freestyler
item959 Thu 07 Jun 2007 23:31 Message item0
Sorry, to take this off topic again, but I just have to say something.

It's bad enough to go to DP and see comments attributed to me that I didn't even say, but, when they actually get the quotes right, it's very upsetting to see my quotes used in such a way to bolster their arguments. Just for the record: I do not support them, I Do Not Support Them, I DO NOT SUPPORT THEM.

I do not agree with their tactics to bring about change within the ODP. I don't not agree with the things they say about editors/ODP, and I do not agree with what they think of the ODP. In fact, I don't care what they think about me as an editor or the ODP, but I do care enough to say that I don't know them nor support them and I would never associate with them. Now, they can quote me and most likely call me all the names they want, including their favorites of immoral, sycophant, and say I stink of the cesspool called the ODP (that's actually kind of funny when I think about it). But, those words are something I've read many times before, specifically in their little boo-hoo, "bad ODP" thread, where they mention those words every 3rd post. They sound like a bunch of broken records, or, in this day and age, a CD with a nice long scratch on it.

And, just for the record, I do have morals and principles and I'm glad they're not inline with those of the folks at DP because I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. And, I hope TPTB are working hard to plug the leak by the self-important ex-editor who I've never even heard of but seems to think very highly of himself. And, apparently, he's also a proud member of the Resource-zone forum, too.

And, just an FYI to the leaker, I was completely wrong about the dmoz-resources forum. Its quite funny that s/he wants more editors to participate but shows such an anti-editor/Dmoz attitude.

[gworld]

Here is what kind of people the ODP has. Freestyler you have given me a clear view of what a 2 Face Bi*** is all about.

#39 February 16, 2007, 07:45 PM
freestyler

Don't be hard on freestyler, the poor woman already mentioned that she has morals and principles but she didn't say anything about courage and how can you expect her to stand for her morals and principals without courage, while being threatened by "senior" editors. ;)

[Misato]

And, just for the record, I do have morals and principles and I'm glad they're not inline with those of the folks at DP because I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.
How pathetic is this ? Should I become a DMOZ Editor to have morals and principles in life ? Does being a member here at Digital Point eliminates me of a good moral character and principles in life ? And you are far better than us is that what you mean ?

[Qryztufre]

Think about it, on a site owned by AOL you insert your forums url ? Was it Vbmain or motsa that inserted the shameless link there? And by the way what help does that RZ offers, all members here and everwhere i go say is "It stinks" or "Its piece of shit" and have not heard anything +ve about the same and yet on the guidelines page of dmoz they dare to put their url.

RZ is privately owned and privately hosted. It's called Resource Zone because it was started as a forum with a different cause that seemingly was not worthy of being listed in DMOZ as it was a complete and total failure. Rather then letting that $160 for the vB license go to waste the guy that owns it let the editors play.

Also to note, the editor that owns has left the ODP at least once and returned...likely only getting his job back because he has rights on pulling the plug on such favoritism.

I can not recall the owners name...but he was not nice enough to reply to me via PM when I kindly pointed out the link in his sig was broken.

[helleborine]

What's that all about? Very strange in light of the fact that I've been singing her praises to high heaven, because she was quite courageously vocal in trying to convince a few stubborn and unreceptive metas that they should have an SOP for editor dismissal that includes a clear and unambiguous warning. I guess the metas are not receptive because it would deny them to privilege of hurting people in the pursuance of their private agendas and personal vendettas. Freestyler struck me as someone who is not easily influenced, and has a mind of her own. I've said as much quite clearly.

Did I misquote her to "bolster" my arguments? I think I quoted her in entirety, so there is no issue about context, and I praised her. What is our argument, BTW? I can't speak for everyone, but surely, it is obvious enough that I am arguing for a more humane, and more forgiving procedure. Not even for transparency... I hardly care for transparency, if it's done the proper way. Not just cut someone off for one bloody mistake out of tens of thousands, no appeal, door shut in your face.

She has to shout that she does "NOT SUPPORT" us??? What does she not support? Our heartfelt and unshakable defense of Annie, or our calls for a better dismissal procedure? For crying out loud, the ODP isn't national security, it's just a link farm. Do people need to hurt and crush over each other over a dinosaur that's more out of date with every passing day? Seriously folks, what is more important? Annie, or a handful of stupid links? The right answer is obvious to me; if you pick wrong, you're subhuman.

She can claim to disagree with our co-called "tactics" to bring change at DMOZ. What tactics? Anybody sees any tactics? There are not tactics because each one of us knows that it's impossible to get the dinosaur to twitch and make an iota of change, whether from within, or from the outside. We know it's a hopeless cause. We're not really trying. All that we have, is a huge collective heartbreak and outrage at the way an exceptional human being like Annie was treated. I am glad that you have "morals and principles" and that you wouldn't "sleep at night" if, like us, you were vexed and indignant about what they did to Annie. Do you even realize what you're saying?

Excuse me if part of this outrage includes describing the ODP as an amoral cesspool. I apologize if it's impossible to resist the temptation of invoking the word "sycophant" when reading crowbar's oeuvre.

If I sound like a "broken record" - so be it. You're going to have to hear the same lines until my heartbreak goes away - I hurt for Annie.

When they do the same to you, freestyler, I'll be there for you. I mean that sincerely. And BTW, I don't know where your brain was when you wrote that post, you probably left it to soak overnight in Pepsodent instead of your dentures, because I honestly think that, having read the your earlier posts, your heart IS in the right place, and I highly suspect that you panicked after someone higher up gave you a dire warning. I see no other explanation for your 180 degree turn. Godspeed.

[Qryztufre]

When they do the same to you, freestyler, I'll be there for you. I mean that sincerely. And BTW, I don't know where your brain was when you wrote that post, you probably left it to soak overnight instead of your dentures, because I honestly think that, having read the your earlier posts, your heart IS in the right place, and I highly suspect that you panicked after someone higher up gave you a dire warning. I see no other explanation for your 180 degree turn. Godspeed.

I think you are wording things incorrectly. I think a "dire warning" would be through the dashboard system, and I think it's clear that is not used ;) though I'm willing to agree that Freestyler either got a 'talking too' of some nature, or thought she was going to.


She has to shout that she does "NOT SUPPORT" us??? What does she not support? Our heartfelt and unshakable defense of Annie, or our calls for a better dismissal procedure? For crying out loud, the ODP isn't national security, it's just a link farm. Do people need to hurt and crush over each other over a dinosaur that's more out of date with every passing day? Seriously folks, what is more important? Annie, or a handful of stupid links? The right answer is obvious to me; if you pick wrong, you're subhuman.

I'd like to point out that if you agree with us, it does not mean you are "with us" or "support us" in any way. I agree that we all need to work together to save the planet, but I do not "support" greenpeace. I agree that slaughtering puppies is a bad thing, but I do not support PETA. I agree that "humans do it better" but that certainly does not mean I support the closed internal systems of DMOZ. In fact, I'd like for nothing better then the ODP to raise to it's former glory, and I'd love to participate in a fair and OPEN project such as what DMOZ SHOULD be....but I can not currently, not with how editors are treated. I mean, look at your recent post, and tell me, do you see fear? Should you?

[Ivan Bajlo]

I'd like to point out that if you agree with us, it does not mean you are "with us" or "support us" in any way.

At DMOZ your either with us or against us, anyone not obeying meta system lords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Lord) is enemy and a traitor and must be merciless hunted down! :p

[minstrel]

Digg it here: DMOZ reaches a new low (http://digg.com/tech_news/DMOZ_reaches_a_new_low/blog)

[helleborine]

At DMOZ your either with us or against us, anyone not obeying meta system lords (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Lord) is enemy and a traitor and must be merciless hunted down! :p

What is the prize that causes so much pain and heartbreak? What is the prize? Just a buncha dumb links. All this hurting people, cult mentality, entrenched status quo, veiled threats, mindless groupthink, cruel ostracizations, quashing anyone with half a voice and half a mind, and pecking order fights, for a buncha dumb links.

Dumb links that are worth less and less every day.

It gets under my skin. It really does.

They seem to forget what's important in life. It's not dumb links - it's people. It's each other. That's all we have, in the end. Dumb links count for zero in the grand scheme of things. It's just a stupid link farm. Get a grip. No one should get hurt over a stupid link farm.

They could have said... "Annie's been our friend for years. She's having a hard time. Let's suggest she take a short break or alternative ways she can help if she's up for it. Let's first deal with our friend in a humane, compassionate, caring way, then we'll worry about fixing the links, and all that less important nonsense." But no. They shut the door in her face.

[popotalk]

And, I hope TPTB are working hard to plug the leak by the self-important ex-editor who I've never even heard of but seems to think very highly of himself.
TPTB in DMOZ are fools and they did not see it coming. ;)

[helleborine]

There is no such thing as privacy on the internet. It's not always about spying to find the "ugly" - sometimes, it's to find a glimmer of hope to hang on to.

I don't know why robjones decided to remove himself.

I am going to keep my fingers crossed that his respect for Annie has won out, in the end.

08/Jun/2007 12:24:16 EDT robjones removed Gotta go sit under a tree and think. Best wishes - Rob

Good luck with your contemplation, robjones. I forgive your allegations that I cooled my website repeatedly, if you are taking a break in solidarity with Annie. Wishing you a gentle breeze, the sound of cicadas, and sunshine - all things that heal.

[Qryztufre]

Good luck with your contemplation, robjones. I forgive your allegations that I cooled my website repeatedly, if you are taking a break in solidarity with Annie. Wishing you a gentle breeze, the sound of cicadas, and sunshine - all things that heal.

I hate cicadas, but I understand the meaning behind the statement (and well wishes).

I also hope the following is true:

I am going to keep my fingers crossed that his respect for Annie has won out, in the end.

I wish ya the best Rob, and I hope that the 'good of the directory' is your true goal in this, and that you return to help it each that potential.

[popotalk]

That leaves spectregunner and alucard in which Annie regards them as DEAR FRIENDS.

spectregunner - Met him at itsallworthwhile in oneeye's niche directory. We exchanged nice greetings and a veteran man of war. As I understand military stand up and fight with dignity.

alucard - Annie still regards as a friend and is working on something secretly. Whatever it is alucard There is more than just DMOZ. Your a principled man and I hope those principles still in there. Its not about me or the hated people in DP its about your FRIEND Annie.

[dogbows]

Hmmm! That is somewhat encouraging. It sounds more like the Rob Jones I remember. I was never that closely associated with him as an editor. However, as I remember it, although he was not afraid to speak his mind, I can't recall his ever having stooped to petty name-calling and mud-slinging. Maybe I just didn't see it, but I was shocked to see some of his recent internal posts.

[Qryztufre]

Hmmm! That is somewhat encouraging. It sounds more like the Rob Jones I remember. I was never that closely associated with him as an editor. However, as I remember it, although he was not afraid to speak his mind, I can't recall his ever having stooped to petty name-calling and mud-slinging. Maybe I just didn't see it, but I was shocked to see some of his recent internal posts.

Personally I would like to think that the better majority of the meta and admin teams got their jobs for a deeper love of the project and a longing to see it the best it could possibly be. I'd also like to think that rather then being evil, it's simply something they have become. Whether it's due to IRL issues, or even (more likely) years of dealing with crappy webmasters trying to get crappy sites in. But I do hope that they DID start there with pure hearts and clean minds, and that they grew into such bitter creatures.

Kind of like Gollum and his precious ring...

http://users.telenet.be/bigchief/smeagol.jpg

Remember, even he was once good (Smeagal).

[Ivan Bajlo]

Kind of like Gollum and his precious ring...

Its mine give it to! My precious! (hint: read biography in my profile :D)

http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/v2/media/galerie/sonstiges6/schatzzzz.jpg

EDIT: This is my 666 post! :D :D

[minstrel]

I'm prepared to wait and see. Let them all struggle with their consciences. Eventually, we'll see where it all falls out and who is left standing (i.e., standing up for principles and fair play) and who is still kneeling before the hallowed admins and metas hoping for promotion.

In the meantime, digg it (http://digg.com/tech_news/DMOZ_reaches_a_new_low) and let's turn up the heat a little on those who are still nervously teetering and wondering which way to move.

[paidhosting]

RZ is privately owned and privately hosted. It's called Resource Zone because it was started as a forum with a different cause that seemingly was not worthy of being listed in DMOZ as it was a complete and total failure. Rather then letting that $160 for the vB license go to waste the guy that owns it let the editors play.

Also to note, the editor that owns has left the ODP at least once and returned...likely only getting his job back because he has rights on pulling the plug on such favoritism.

I can not recall the owners name...but he was not nice enough to reply to me via PM when I kindly pointed out the link in his sig was broken.

But than again the question stands how can the forums link be put on dmoz without aol's permission ? And that too under guidelines? Is that favoritism or what towards his/her own forums? And they talk about favoritism. Lets see it getting removed from dmoz guidelines pages and than they can talk all they want about favoritism. What a bunch of ------ << fill it up yourself will yaa.

@minstrel , you never know some might resign and decide in few months when dust has settled to join again, now how can we all be sure whoever resigns is not a showoff ? Skunky seems not a showoff for sure, cause he wants to feed a bunny to a meta everyday :).


Cheers

[helleborine]

This editor dates back from 2000

03/Jun/2007 17:45:47 EDT
euroka
removed
"This project has no more future IMO. Just a matter of time I am afraid. I hope I am wrong but I doubt it."

[Ivan Bajlo]

This editor dates back from 2000

And once all editor leave or are removed, we should se Adsense all over the place and new automated (monthly) paid submissions system running, no guidelines, only relevant is PR of category which will be proportional to the price so links on main PR8 page will cost a nice sum each month. :D

[dogbows]

I am not familiar with that editor name at all. I am curious though about the date of removal which says June 3. Is that the actual day Annie was removed?

[helleborine]

[...]Adsense all over the place and new automated (monthly) paid submissions system running, no guidelines, only relevant is PR of category which will be proportional to the price so links on main PR8 page will cost a nice sum each month. :D
You're almost correct. The issue of remunerating the editors some way or another is being hotly discussed at the moment.

[gboisseau]

I am not familiar with that editor name at all. I am curious though about the date of removal which says June 3. Is that the actual day Annie was removed?

That was the date editor euroka quit.

[dogbows]

That was the date editor euroka quit.

I understand that full well skunky! What I am asking is: "Is that also the day that Annie was removed?" Because I don't know the actual day of Annie's removal.

[Ivan Bajlo]

You're almost correct. The issue of remunerating the editors some way or another is being hotly discussed at the moment.

Well that is directly connected to everything else, until ODP decided to become truly open it is doubtful anyone would want to work in that paranoid environment where everyone is guilty and proving innocence is impossible since nobody even wants to even hear your defense - people prosecuted by Stalin had better chance of defending themselves despite the verdict already been made. :mad:

[helleborine]

She was removed on June 1.

[dogbows]

Thank you kindly, my dear!

[paidhosting]

Thank you kindly, my dear!

Wow a flirt is in the house :D .. Hey no hitting on hot editors allowed in this forum.

But wait was dear meant as in dear sir, dear mam kinda thing :p, sorry not the bestest of the best when it comes to english here. :eek:

But is dmoz now dead officially that lots of editors have started to resign? Well dead cause metas are pretty much useless and care more about booting people rather than listing sites as their job description.

[dogbows]

Wow a flirt is in the house :D .. Hey no hitting on hot editors allowed in this forum. Well in that case is flirting with hot webmasters ok, Sweetie?

[paidhosting]

Well in that case is flirting with hot webmasters ok, Sweetie?

Hehe sweetie, check out my avatar , do i look sweet ? By the way thats my pic when i was like 2 or something. :p . Was i cute or what :eek:

[dogbows]

Hehe sweetie, check out my avatar , do i look sweet ? By the way thats my pic when i was like 2 or something. :p . Was i cute or what :eek:
You were very cute. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/dogbows/Smileys/BigBatEyelashes.gif

[popotalk]

Inner Forums and RZ Editors Only has been quiet. You know why. :D

[SasaVtec]

Well that is directly connected to everything else, until ODP decided to become truly open it is doubtful anyone would want to work in that paranoid environment where everyone is guilty and proving innocence is impossible since nobody even wants to even hear your defense - people prosecuted by Stalin had better chance of defending themselves despite the verdict already been made. :mad:

Tebi je najbolje da se umijes i napijes se malo vode. :)

[paidhosting]

Inner Forums and RZ Editors Only has been quiet. You know why. :D

Let me guess --- cause they just found out that i am a gangsta from early age :D:eek:

[helleborine]

[...]until ODP decided to become truly open it is doubtful anyone would want to work in that paranoid environment where everyone is guilty and proving innocence is impossible since nobody even wants to even hear your defense - people prosecuted by Stalin had better chance of defending themselves despite the verdict already been made.
I remember the days, back in 1997, pre-eBay and pre-YouTube, when there wasn't much on the internet, when I first sat on a computer and learnt of the existence of "www."

I am not making this up. A fellow grad student introduced me to the new technology. The first thing he did was to show me how to FIND things. There were two ways, he said. "Directory" and "Search Engine." He had bookmarked DMOZ and Altavista on the computer that all 7 of us had to share. He first showed me the directory, commenting that it was difficult to find what you are looking for, because of the complexity of zeroing in on the right category. Then, he opened Altavista, typed in a keyword, and bang! All the info was there. I tried both methods for a brief period of time; after a few days, I was sold on Altavista.

A few years later, when Nature (the respected science magazine) published a comparison of search engines, the little known "Northern Lights" and "Google" were deemed the best - we all switched to Northern Lights, until they started to try to charge to view some web content! After that, it was Google all the way.

You can see here on this graph, courtesy of Alexa, how Google took off, and left DMOZ biting the dust:
http://canada-gardens.com/images/alexa1.jpg

But perhaps a more fair comparison would be to, say, digitalpoint; as you see, digitalpoint now gets more traffic than DMOZ (including editor actions).
http://canada-gardens.com/images/alexa2.jpg

For some time, editors could feel that they were doing something of use, because although they've always known that no one uses DMOZ anymore, they might have had some influence on search engines, guiding them to the better sites. The Google front page link and Google Directory fueled this belief. It might have been true at the time; but only die hard faithful ODP'ers still believe there is any truth to this, nowadays.

If no one uses the Directory, and if it has no influence on search engines, beyond the value of a link on some god-forsaken low-PR deep directory page, what's the use of spending so much time visiting websites, writing boring descriptions, ferreting out the proper categories for wayward submissions, checking the whois for irregularities, sniffing out fraternal mirrors, etc.?

It's all for naught.

And all that we see happening is in the context of a painful realization, perhaps exacerbated by the recent AOL blackout, of how futile the near-decade long exercize has been. Everyone is cranky. There is little patience for, say, an editor like curtmonash, to be bullied by the likes of kctipton (the guy against whom I had an mediation request that was acknowledged, but ignored, and pushed for my dismissal). kctipton left for the ODP for the millionth time when it was suggested to him that he apologize. There is also an increased urgency for reform; however, this is the ODP, and the ODP will die, before it changes. The question has shifted from "where do we go from here" to "is there anything worth rescuing."

I may be mistaken, but since the pre-crash editor notes on individual sites have been lost, all the previous labor of finding fraternal mirrors etc. has to start from scratch. It is disheartening at best. And when you start seeing fellow editors eating each other alive, quitting in droves, being kicked out in the cruellest of fashion... a dinosaur that will never evolve... the culture of grovelling and waking on eggshells... it's high time to find something better to do.

We have so little time on this beautiful planet.

Many "editors" (I prefer the name "link approver") have come to their senses and moved on to activities that are more gratifying and more useful. I am sure that for every editor that finally gets to the end of his road, there is a happy and relieved spouse, children that spend more time with their parents, hobbies that grow healthy, gardens with fewer weeds and sinks with fewer dirty dishes.

[paidhosting]

We have so little time on this beautiful planet.



It hurts that people are killing our planet as we speak, trees being cut down and what not, for how long will our planet last is what aliens might be betting on right now for sure.

[popotalk]

Many "editors" (I prefer the name "link approver") have come to their senses and moved on to activities that are more gratifying and more useful. I am sure that for every editor that finally gets to the end of his road, there is a happy and relieved spouse, children that spend more time with their parents, hobbies that grow healthy, gardens with fewer weeds and sinks with fewer dirty dishes.

LOL. You forgot to say about the pet cat.

Now tell me this and they so hated the webmasters as its not their clients. Then who are the NORMAL users they are reffering to. Actually the NORMAL users don't even know DMOZ and its existence. These Peeps either uses Yahoo, MSN or Google for search and if they want friends they go to myspace or friendster.

[brizzie]

Hmmm, lots of reading there.

Like everyone else posting here I have no idea what "evidence" justified Annie's removal. However, I cannot believe that this lady is ever capable of abuse or corruption, she's an open book and a strident anti-abuse campaigner.

In stable democratic nations there are employment rules which give employees rights that protect them against arbitrary dismissal and that means that the employee gets to hear and respond to the accusations. And can take legal action if the dismissal goes ahead unfairly. So how does the ODP get away with secret cabals, secret evidence, no right of reply etc. Because editors are not employees but volunteers. A decently run organisation would nevertheless adopt good employment practises. Unfortunately the ODP is run by amateurs with no idea about good employment practises.

In stable democratic nations there are judicial practises where an individual is accused of corrupt practises. If an investigation shows a case to answer then the individual is questioned and given the right to give evidence in their defence. If sanctions are to be imposed the accused has the right to an open trial and confidence in the judicial system comes from the fact that proceeding are open and public. Secret trials and sentencing with the accused not present are the province of totalitarian regimes that sooner or later generally get their comeuppance.

I have heard the arguments about the "need" to protect the ODP by not revealing evidence but it seems far far more damage is done to the project by adopting practises Robert Mugabe and the government of Burma would be proud to have devised. No doubt they could come up with the exact same protection of the state arguments.

At the same time the ODP has used its secrecy rules to protect wrongdoers at the highest levels - Topix was one gross violation of its own rules, another was the "rules" about Adult listings that permitted a meta editor to list dozens of her own sites, and her sidekick to do the same. It is apparently no secret amongst meta and admin editors that organised crime has been involved in the Adult branch, at least in the past, yet it continues to exist. And not only exist but exist in a totally irresponsible way when it comes to the protection of minors who are editors and users of the ODP.

So you have an organisation which combines a lack of regard for good human resource management practises, a judicial system worthy of a banana republic, and hypocracy when the offender is at the top of the food chain. It is no wonder it gets bad press, it is totally self-inflicted.

There are quite a few removed editors who post here and I have no idea whether they were guilty of heinous crimes, simple correctible errors, or were set up. Once upon a time I believed that the removal processes were so devised as to avoid miscarriages of justice because most were very obvious, the offender knew what they had done, and because there were metas with backbones and a professional editor in chief with common sense. Once power was handed over to an unelected committee of amateurs the rot set in, there was no longer an "executive" to provide checks and balances on the power-hungry. And therefore a need to introduce transparency in those areas open to abuse such as removals.

The absence of transparency has another effect in that it is impossible to tell the true abusers and corrupt editors from those who are committed to the concepts and principles of the project but disgusted at the maladministration and hypocracy and who speak out. The habit of pushing all critical ex-editors into the abuser/corrupt category wherever possible is also reprehensible. In an open and transparent system, everyone could see whether an editor was guilty of corruption or wrongdoing, justice would be seen to be done. I have no doubt that the critics here would all support the removal of proven corrupt editors.

Two internal comments I've read that I think need a response...

I don't know why any of us would not trust our meta community to make the right decisions, is there that much disrespect and mistrust for people who have earned meta responsibilities? [crowbar]

It is a self-regulating elite with no transparency or accountability to the community of editors. It is a Zimbabwe or Burma in microcosm. Trust has to be earned by those who seek to govern - the alternative is intolerant dictatorship. When things are hidden it is natural to ask what is there to hide if everything is above board? The answer, I suspect, is that what is being hidden is likely to be far more embarrassing and cause more damage than the criticisms of secrecy. Questioning authority is a well-respected and effective (eventually) route to obtaining change in a good way, of achieving accountability and transparency, of putting the right people with the right skills in charge. When you are trying to change a totalitarian regime there will be casualties along the way history tells us. So no-one in Nazi occupied Europe or the subsequent Communist dictatorships should have questioned their governments? On that basis Europe would still be under a jackboot of one flavour or another.

And helping people to get their sites listable is probably already on the wrong site of the line [pvgool]

What nonsense. The ODP publishes guidelines describing what sites are listable and editors pointing out where a site fails, providing said site is clearly not marketing hype/drivel/scam, and getting them to change their site accordingly helps people find good quality unique content on the Internet. Encouraging genuine people to produce great sites is a commendable activity and genuine honest ODP editors are in a perfect position to do that given the thousands of sites they view and the nose for a scam that many develop.

And finally... those who criticise posters in this forum... much of what is said may be nonsense but it is free and uncensored and you can pick what is sensible and useful from the crap and nonsense. That makes it 100 times more valuable than forums where dissent and opposing views are not tolerated. Accepting and using criticism is the only method by which individuals and organisations can grow and improve.

[popotalk]

An update too on certain people in DMOZ who elect to say that multiple accounts are prohibited are now banned in DP for having the same. ;)

Nice to see you again brizzie. All the readings are posted so please take your time. :)

[brizzie]

All the readings are posted so please take your time
I read everything before posting Jude;)

[dogbows]

Welcome home, Sweetheart! That was PooPooButt, not Ivan! :D

[brizzie]

That was PooPooButt, not Ivan
You go away, they change their avatars... its not good enough... :( I swear that looks like a younger Ivan.

[login]

Editors should not hang up in Digital Point or be a Webmaster or else you are going to be FIRED.



Is this the official rules of editors ?

[brizzie]

Quote:
Originally Posted by popotalk

Editors should not hang up in Digital Point or be a Webmaster or else you are going to be FIRED.


Is this the official rules of editors ?
At least 50% of editors are webmasters and it depends what they say on an external forum that decides whether they remain an editor. Breaching the secrecy rules would result in removal in most cases.

[helleborine]

I love to read your thoughts, Brizzie. Welcome back!

@login
It is not an official rule. Some editors that have some association with DP are sometimes warned to stay away, either directly, or indirectly with veiled warnings in the internal forums.

The warnings on the internal forums have recently been reiterated with regards to annie's dismissal; in the reason for her dismissal, as stated in her permission logs, there is disguised claim that she might have favored her DP acquaintances. So you can imagine that the new editors will not want to be seen here.

You'll notice that "jinx" (meta-editor jcand) is refraining to post since his identity has been exposed, and that the meta with the multiple accounts (believed to be jimnoble) "copperdrum" and "martty" and "jimnoble" and "DPlurker" have been banned (presumbly for having quadriplicate accounts).

Perhaps they don't want to be accused of leaking the contents of the internal forum to us as well.

The DMOZ editors that used to hang around here have cleared the place. That's interesting.

[popotalk]

And they say I can't connect the dots. Dot1 (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/member.php?find=lastposter&t=15657) to Dot2 (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/member.php?u=23794).

Ahhhhh Nebbie "Boy" again I beat you. :D

Theres a new DMOZ troll in town and the name is.....Nilt...My eyes on you. :p