Ugly Domain Theifs :/

[SaN-DeeP]

One of my friends (Web-Designer) clients reported this issue to us today.

They own a 3-Star Hotel in Mumbai, running on a xyz.com domain name since last 2 years (which represents the name of there hotel) in domain name..
No trademarks are setup on domain name.

Since, these hotel fellows are non technical guys, they missed to renew the domain name and got the same deleted day before yesterday, yet another Domain Hogger registered this domain (backordered) and got it registered.

Yesterday the domain hogger, approached hotel authorities demanding a huge amount in return for the domain name..

[Johnburk]

That's f*ck*d up for your friends client.

Lesson to be learned. Renew your domain on time.

My experiance is that I get a notice 1 month before deadline, 4 weeks, 3 weeks, 2 weeks, 1 weeks, 3 days and the day it expires. Then, 1 week later I still get the final notice.

So that is 8x! Don't know if all companies offer this service, but usally it is atleased 2 or 3 times.

[SaN-DeeP]

Yup i know, there are other non-ethical ways to get back the domain name... completely depends upon the hotel owners.

But, the hotel name is a registered trademark, can something be done over here ?

[INV]

I would say you could put up a fight in court if the trademark is registered in the US. However, even so its very slim chance.

[fryman]

Sorry to say this, but you need to really stupid to let a domain expire. For example I get sent an email 90 days before my domain is going to expire. I then get one 60 days before, then another one 30 days before... I don't know if they continue sending them because I've always renewed my domains before 30 days, but you get the point.

And calling them thieves is ridiculous. You let a domain exprie, that means that it is available, why would someone be a thief for buying something?

[SaN-DeeP]

Sorry to say this, but you need to really stupid to let a domain expire. For example I get sent an email 90 days before my domain is going to expire. I then get one 60 days before, then another one 30 days before... I don't know if they continue sending them because I've always renewed my domains before 30 days, but you get the point. As already mentioned in the first post, hotel fellows are non technical guys

And calling them thieves is ridiculous. You let a domain exprie, that means that it is available, why would someone be a thief for buying something?Domain Hogger registered this domain (backordered) and got it registered.
domain hogger, approached hotel authorities demanding a huge amount in return for the domain name.. under 24 hours after the domain was registered on his name..

What do you call this activity ?

[fryman]

I call it business. I have something you want. Cool, how much are you willing to give me for it?

[spdude]

hmmm.. when a domain expires, doesn't the website just get suspended for a few days. Why didn't your friends notice their website being down?

If like a month later (the website being down the whole time), nothing is done, then only does the domain become available for registration.

I thought that was the way it worked..

[SaN-DeeP]

You have something which already belonged to me couple of hours back.. without my knowledge you got the same..
Now you come over to me, asking a huge sum for same..

I know it is business, but not a real good business.

[fryman]

Well... not realy good business for you maybe, but for the person that was wise enough to see that some guy out there was too ignorant/lazy/dumb/careless about his domain and was going to let it expire then it sure is good business.

And I agree with Spdude, it's not like the domain expired yesterday and today it belongs to another person, there is a process designed to protect people like your friends and give them enough time to realize their screw up and get their domain renewed, if even with that they lost the domain then they just deserved it

[RyanBlank]

the process to lose an expired domain is actually a pretty long one. the initial owner usually has close to 2 months to get his/her act together and re-register. it's not as if the domain goes back into the buying pool one it's expired.

[cpmx]

I pay in advance as many years as I can on my business domains, they are really valuable assets. I guess the hotel in question is not accustom to pay their bills on time.

Two years ago a friend of mine did the same thinking he will be able to re-register his domain. I learnt from his experience, he had a very good domain name.

[SaN-DeeP]

I guess the hotel in question is not accustom to pay their bills on time.Speaking with one the hotel authorities, i understand they are really non-technical people, not sure who/how registered there domain names.

[INV]

Many people consider this kind of activity sleazy and such. However, the market itself is very clean unlike many industries you can 'label' sleazy.
Domain sellers are probably one of the most friendly people to deal with as well.

You don't see too many domain owners spamming you with "Buy this Domain!" message, or never ending popup advertising. It usually always clean transactions in a market place.

Beyond that... I just want to make a real life comparison. For example if you have a nice apartment you are renting, and you miss the monthly due. You get a warning, then another warning, then you finally get kicked out for not paying rent for over 2 months. Would I be sleazy if I move into your nice apartment that you didnt pay rent for?

[joeychgo]

I think about it this way ---


I dont renew my lease for my retail storefront, just paying month to month because I never make it to my landlord's office to sign a new lease. Someone else comes along and offers my landlord more money and a lease and I lose my storefront.

Who's to blame? I am. I didnt do what I was suppose to do. Plain and simple. Thats the point of the lease, to protect myself from someone coming along and offering more money for my space and my losing the storefront. If I didnt execute a new lease, its my fault. Blaming someone else, is just avoiding blame.

[sachin410]

Register a new domain name. Hardly any business comes to Indian hotels via net.

Buy a new name xyz.in or xyz.co.in and inform your "domain hogger " that you dont need that older domain name.

[mcfox]

You can't trademark a domain. What you can do is approach the registering authority, for example, ICANN, Nominet, or whatever, and make the necessary moves to begin a legal process of re-acquiring the domain. There are committees and rules in place for just this type of situation. Since the person has already tried to sell the domain to the original owners, they don't have much of a case to defend.

[joeychgo]

Thats not entirely true.

See: http://arb-forum.com/domains/

Paragraph 4(a) of the Policy requires that the Complainant must prove each of the following three elements to obtain an order that a domain name should be cancelled or transferred:


(1) the domain name registered by the Respondent is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the Complainant has rights;

(2) the Respondent has no rights or legitimate interests in respect of the domain name; and

(3) the domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith.


If the company doesnt hold trademark rights, they have no case against the new owner of the domain. You dont have to hold a trademark registration to have trademark rights however. Research it more and you will see.

[mcfox]

Thats not entirely true.

See: http://arb-forum.com/domains/

Paragraph 4(a) of the Policy requires that the Complainant must prove each of the following three elements to obtain an order that a domain name should be cancelled or transferred:


(1) the domain name registered by the Respondent is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the Complainant has rights;

(2) the Respondent has no rights or legitimate interests in respect of the domain name; and

(3) the domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith.


If the company doesnt hold trademark rights, they have no case against the new owner of the domain. You dont have to hold a trademark registration to have trademark rights however. Research it more and you will see.
The domain, having already been used by the hotel would have the precedent, unless the domain was bought quite innocently and was being put to some other use; however in this case the new owner has already tried to sell the domain back to the hotel for a hefty fee which, based on previous rulings, is typically viewed as being used in bad faith.

[sarahk]

Speaking with one the hotel authorities, i understand they are really non-technical people, not sure who/how registered there domain names.That doesn't wash. We had a situation where the city council botched sending out the liquor license renewal notices and a stack of bars lost their license to sell alcohol. At the end of the day if you have something important you mark it in your diary etc and you don't rely on other people to remind you. It's nothing to do with being technical.

BTW: In NZ we have 90 days to renew

Oh, and I have let a domain expire, I'd lost the email address and the site doesn't get alot of attention from us, and I hadn't diaried the expiry. It only took a day, though, for the emails to flood in telling us that there was something wrong with the site.

[uca]

I would rather change the name of the hotel and register a new domain or look for another available extension rather than financing the greed of such vultures.

Nevertheless it's rightly legal, and the price to pay is the consequence of overlooking the renewal date and the domain itself. If they are not very webfriendly, well, they should be now.

I am sorry but the only alternative is doing nothing.

Good luck to your friends!

PS: what sort of price was asked if you can share the info and give us a better picture?

[Caveman]

The domain, having already been used by the hotel would have the precedent, unless the domain was bought quite innocently and was being put to some other use; however in this case the new owner has already tried to sell the domain back to the hotel for a hefty fee which, based on previous rulings, is typically viewed as being used in bad faith.
That example would only work if the hotel had a TM on the keywords used in the domain. If I find an unregistered or expired domain that has no TM associated with it, am I not allowed to market it to the best prospective buyers? That would mean people/companies that are in that line of business or have a business name that fits the domain name. Without the TM, it will most likely be a wast of $1k on a UDRP case.

[mcfox]

That example would only work if the hotel had a TM on the keywords used in the domain. If I find an unregistered or expired domain that has no TM associated with it, am I not allowed to market it to the best prospective buyers? That would mean people/companies that are in that line of business or have a business name that fits the domain name. Without the TM, it will most likely be a wast of $1k on a UDRP case.
I'm not knocking making cash by picking up expired domains. Nothing wrong with it, imho. The original post was what to do about the situation with the hotel.

In that case, I believe the hotel to have a case with which to approach the appropriate ruling body for the domain name and file a claim for the name to be returned. It does not have to be a trademark-related domain to succeed. The hotel were already using the domain but for whatever reason didn't renew it. This may not have been their fault but that of a third party with which they entrusted the task. In situations such as these, the hotel has a case for having the domain transferred back to them, particularly as the new owner has already tried to sell it back to them, thereby indicating, at least in law, that they registered the domain in 'bad faith'.

It's my opinion that the hotel have a good case for reclaiming the domain.

[fryman]

They don't. They let the domain expire, and now it has a new owner, there is no case at all.

[mcfox]

... the hotel name is a registered trademark, can something be done over here ?
It probably can be but it really depends on the ruling body for the domain and past precedent.

They don't. They let the domain expire, and now it has a new owner, there is no case at all.
They still have a possible case. Just because a domain expires and gets registered by someone else after the grace period does not mean the domain is lost. This case has many similiarities to the situation at hand:
http://arbiter.wipo.int/domains/decisions/html/2002/d2002-1180.html

Not saying it would be easy, or even worth it. It really depends just how valuable the domain is to the hotel and their business.

[SaN-DeeP]

FYI - Domain has been retrived back @ same cost of renewing the domain every year.

Request to close the topic.
Thanks for help and expertise :)

Regards,

[fryman]

Cool, glad to see they were able to fix things up ;)

[sachin410]

FYI - Domain has been retrived back @ same cost of renewing the domain every year.

Request to close the topic.
Thanks for help and expertise :)

Regards,

And how did they do it?

[sridhar kondoji]

Not sure, if this is answered already.
If hotel name is trademarked, then domain name can be transfered easily.

"The new domain owner has approached the hotel owneres". If you can produce a proof of it, then your case becomes stronger.
Also, if the new domain owner does not do anything with the domain, except soliciting a monetary offer from somebody (in this case hotel owners), the case becomes much more stronger for hotel owners.

Please read the case about ipod domain name in UK.
This is something similar.

[uca]

Yes, how did they get it back at the same cost?