Calling for help from business owners from the UK!

[xml]

Hi,

I need help with some advertising thingy I stupidly accepted. This was over the phone, for an advert in a yearly planner (profits go to the child research fund).

The cost was £230 ($420).

What happened was I got into trouble finically and the £230 is a big deal to me, so I emailed to cancel it, and said I would give £25 to the fund for good will.

There was no reply so I phoned them, the women on the other side of the phone said it was OK and cancelled it for me.

Now after a month I've got the advert in the post with a bill of £230!!!

I've emailed again and tried to phone them (no answer).

Obviously they can't expect me to pay right? Are there laws in the UK were its legally binding contract if I agree over the phone?

I have the email saved in my sent items folder, will this help my case?

I know like this might not sound like a big deal, but I’m an 18 year old kid tryna get a business started, and this effects me more than you can believe :(.

Thanks in advance!

MG

[T0PS3O]

Send it back with a copy of your e-mail, leave your contact details and ask them to ting you, but you ring them. Just don't pay. They agreed and put the ad in against your will. Did you sign anything to confirm the ad should go in?

Keep trying to get in touch.

[xml]

Thanks for the reply.

No I've signed nothing, just agreed over the phone. I've kept tryna ring them but they're not answering.

Heres a copy of the email I sent them:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Recently you had called about advertising to help the Children's Research Fund.

Unfortunately we are financially unable to pay the £200, for the advertising, so we are no longer able to continue with this. However we understand your efforts and are very grateful and supportive of your efforts, and so have decided to donate £25 to you to be submitted to the Children's Research Fund.

Please if you could get back to me on how I can send the payment of £25 I would much appreciate it.

Regards,
Martin Gallagher

What annoys me most is the fact I was willing to donate £25 even without the frickin advert being shown!

Thanks again,
MG

[T0PS3O]

If nothing is signed, and you both just agreed by phone (you to initially have the ad, she to cancel it) + you have this e-mail; I don't think they have anything legally to go by. They just did you a silly favour and got you free advertising.

I wouldn't worry about it. It is not your problem there is an unpaid for ad. It sounds the same like I build someone a garage when they are on holiday, then ask money for it when they get back, saying it looks nice and benefits them.

[T0PS3O]

What I forgot to ask and is not clear: Have you paid the £200 or not? Do you want a refund or are you worried about the invoice?

[Dominic]

[you are probably dealing with a promoter that gets a commish]

Contact the charity directly - they will return your call or email and be very concerned about ensuring the right thing is done (fair treatment - your money back / purchase cancelled etc).

[xml]

No money has exchanged hands. I just recevied and invoice this morning. This is so major for me because I'm already in a financial "situation" so this nearly gave me heart attack. :(

I'm a bit dissapointed they've caused this issue because I had said I would send em £25 without the advert, its a win-win situation for them then, they get £25 AND lose no ad space.

[T0PS3O]

They can not make you pay afterwards for what you didn't and do not want. Just send it back with a short explanation and contact details and indeed, keep ringing after that. Once something is on paper, things get for real so do write back then discuss.

If you are still scared, look at it this way. They have no proof you wanted it because you didn't sign for it. Even if they monitored your call you can still say you canceled it. Don't worry, you'll be fine. Send them the 25 quid anyway if it makes you feel better (would be nice since it is a charity, i wouldn't have bothered if it was commercial). You promised/offered that in the first place, might as well stick with it.

[Old Welsh Guy]

Sorry Tops your wrong on this. Under European and Uk law a verbal contract is as good as a written one. If I make an offer, and you accept it then we have a valid legally binding contract. It is called offer and accepptance.

That said, it depends on the delay in your cancelling, as to if it is fair and reasonable. If they rang you today, and you immediately rang back and said that you had changed your mind after some thought, then it would not be fair and reasonable for them to hold you to the contract. If however you left it some time, and they had already sold all the spots, and were well on the way to producing the goods, then it would be fair and reasonable for them to seek recompence in the form of the whole amount agreed.

Lastly, you have not been dealing with a charity, you have been dealing with a company who are making money on the back of the charity. Often times the salesman will get 30-50% and the charity can get as little as 5% of the actual value of the sales.

You are in a hole, and you need to take legal advice PDQ. That said, if you can't pay, then you can agree to pay it at £10 a month.

[xml]

:(

I'll have to seriously get on the case on Monday then :@.

[xml]

To: Old Welsh Guy

Thanks for the information regarding the matter. But I'm a bit mythed.

Under what terms and conditions was the verbal contract made? I sure as hell never agreed to anything legally binding, I received no terms and was not read any via the phone.

It was a simple: "Would you please advertise in the CRF year planner for £230?", "Yes, Goodbye."

Surely contracts vary for each situation, so therefore there must be a generic set of terms and conditions which apply when further information regarding terms has not been made available for it to be legally binding?

I have received no such T&C, so I assume the generic verbal contract terms apply (whatever they may be)?

But IF this is true (I'm not doubting you, infact its probably true, it just DOESN'T make sense!) then surely I could easily become rich beyond my wildest dreams by acquire the telephone numbers of a number of several elderly people, naive people over 16 etc, which I could then phone (recorded call) and say "Please say YES if you agree to pay me 1 trillion dollars", in the off chance someone is naive or silly enough to say yes I would be owed $1000 000 000 000.

As you can see this system is truly flawed.

[Old Welsh Guy]

Hang on the laws of selling to business are completely different to the distance selling to individuals, under those terms they have an automatic cooling off period. Business to business sales do not. It all rests on what is fair and reasonable.

They made you an offer, you accepted it. Offer and acceptance are the two main elements of a verbal contract.
read the first one, it actually names this hole you have fallen into.

http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/herefordshire/busi16.htm

http://www.thisismoney.com/20030117/sb58003.html

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but We used to sell about £20,000 of advertising a week over the phone, and ended up taking people to court on a daily basis. This was for a newspaper though that was all above board.

[xml]

Ok thanks for the info!

But what agreements on payment were made? E.g. should I be expected to pay the full price in one lump sum, I can't see this being the case. I will only agree to what you previously said about paying £10 per month.

Isn't cold-calling breaking the law in the UK? I hadn't asked for them to call me :mad:.

Its really sad because now if something else like this happens and is for a legit cause I will 100% say NO. The goverment should crack down on this crap, because it sure isn't going to help the charities.

[DarrenC]

OWG is spot on!

A lesson learnt XML, don't buy a service or product unless you can afford to pay for that service or product.

Don't worry about it - we've all been there as business owners, just learn from the lesson, it'll make you and your business stronger.

Darren :)

[xml]

Lol in that way you are 100% correct.

However if I ever aquire any financial power I'll make it a priority to take these arseholes DOWN BIGTIME.

[xml]

The important parts of the contract, like price, must be agreed and if this was still outstanding, say, trading hadn’t begun, then it is not a binding contract.

On my Companies House documents I had stated I had not begun trading as XMLSoft Ltd. yet. Will this help me?

I also have a sent email stored which could be classed as evidence. I telephoned them and had them agree to cancelling. So I will throw these facts at them first before I even think about paying.

If I do have to pay... (I know this may sound childish but...) I looked at the SERPS for their company name and looks EASY to get numero uno placement in Google. So I guess I might resort to gorilla tactics and post my incident publically and SEO for their company name.

[Penelope]

To XML
I've been searching the net as my son has been cold-called by CRF to the tune of £495. You are the only person I have come across so far to mention their name. What was the outcome of your situation last year? They quite helpfully sent my son a year planner so I am working my way through it telephoning the people... it follow a very definite pattern. If you know anything interesting - can you let me know? I don't see why ordinary, decent people should be targetted by these vile people. Tks ever so.
Penelope

[T0PS3O]

I lost track of this thread and see now I was wrong to an extent indeed.

However, just to recap, if this line is a legally binding contract:

It was a simple: "Would you please advertise in the CRF year planner for £230?", "Yes, Goodbye."

Than surely, within reasonable time, this line is as legally binding and final:


There was no reply so I phoned them, the women on the other side of the phone said it was OK and cancelled it for me.

Yes or no?

[Penelope]

How do I think I did? I have a lot to learn... about forums..

I'll keep taking the vitamins in the meantime, while calling Trading Standards on Monday.

Tks
Penelope

[Solicitors Mortgages]

Isn't cold-calling breaking the law in the UK? I hadn't asked for them to call me :mad:

check this out....
there may be some small print in there you can use
http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/tps/

cold calling residential numbers is outlawed but you have to register
(i have, and the 99% of the calls stopped)
now i just say
"tell me your company details, i am going to prosecute you"
and they hang up :D

[Penelope]

thank you, yes I have registered with TPS and done so for a lot of people now. Its rare to have these sorts of scams in Jersey, where I am based, so I will be highlighting it locally soon to help anyone else just starting out in business. How sad to have to sit there scanning the yellow pages to try and target new businesses? Naturally when they picked on my son it made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck with outrage (but hey, I will still take the vitamins and think calming thoughts..).

Penelope

[Solicitors Mortgages]

How sad to have to sit there scanning the yellow pages to try and target new businesses?


AHA...there's your problem.......
if you are in yellow pages...you are screwed..
they SELL your information on to these companies on a huge database !!
people don't need to sit there scanning the pages!!

i set up a phony business to prove it...
all i did was make an enquiry into possibly placing an ad..using the name of a company that i made up, didn't place an ad (obviously)

and 3 days later the calls started...up to 30 a day from assorted businesses trying to sell me their wares...i even got PENS sent to me with my fake companies name on them!!

yellow pages denied they tell anyone...so i explained to them how i made up the name ..and they were the ONLY people to have heard that name....

suffice to say they were a touch on the backfoot.

(6 months later i still get the odd letter and the odd call)

not bad for a company that didn't even exist, and didn't even place an advert!!
DONT GO NEAR YELLOW PAGES


(there's a good place to advertise.... in my sig) :D :D

[nevetS]

I had the same problem with OC Family (for profit, not a non-profit). They still send me mail once in a while, and I call and they say "sorry". I really am curious if they are going to one day send me to collections.

The LA Times has a thing out here of calling you to subscribe and when you say no, they send the paper anyways and then bill you for it - figuring that in a lot of families the husband will figure the wife said yes or vice versa. I actually had to wait outside my house at 4am to get the delivery guy to stop and even then it started up again a few weeks later.

Think of how much money we'd all be making if we just sold products to poeple who didn't ask for them.

[softus]

If "raider" is still reading this post, please could you bring everyone up to date on the outcome of your problem with Barrington House?

Thanks
softus

[uca]

Yes, a verbal agreement is as good as a written one, only it's harder to prove.

Nevertheless, I don't remember how long, but in Europe there should be a length of time during which you can cancel any agreement to buy that was done from remote. Maybe a week. Did you chenge your mind in time?

Still, they can't prove much without anything in writing, so you're in a good position as if they don't accept it you can deny everything IMO.

I wouldn't give them anything, in particular before the cancellation of the order.

And if you are in financial trouble, don't do it, if it's for charity you might be able to give 50 pounds later on once you've sorted your problems.

All the best...

[mcfox]

Earlier in this thread is the position a verbal agreement places someone in, courtesy of OWG, who knows the ropes in such situations. The information is spot on.

[I, Brian]

The trouble with a verbal agreement is that it can be difficult to prove - it can take county court action (in the UK), which in itself can cost thousands to bring an action, and even then, effectively has to weigh up one person's testimony against another.

From a business point of view, you should always get written acceptance of contracted services where possible, or else set up payment so that consumer acceptance of said services is clearly a matter of volition.

(That's just a general point aside from the original post circumstances)

[lpmcemap]

The company that sold you the advertising are not a noce company, i worked for then about 10 years ago when they were based in ormskirk, now i belive them to be in liverpool. They pay a lump sum to the charity per year and try to make it sound like you sponsoring kids in your local area in exchange for advertising on a wall chart callender. They will tell you they have a local distribution network ready to go round local businesses offering the wall charts for charitable donations.

Not very nice as scams go. Only a few are printed with the adverts just enough to offer out copies for proof and a couple af copies for each advertiser as a matter of good will.

I would ask them for the number or contact details for the distribution network, also i would ask to see the proof that the wallcharts have been printed in the volume that they have specified, If this company has lied to get you to part with mony or they are trying to they are breaking the law, start recording your telephone conversations with them.

[Penelope]

I understand that Barrington House are in administration - their website has been closed for some time.

Readers should (perhaps?) be aware of a new company called Hamilton Forbes who may operate in the same way? time will tell....

Penelope