Dont matter if your white or black

[wanboll]

Apparently it does.

Dont you think its a bit rascist how bush evacuated all the whites before the blacks and the difference in the way they are being treated during this dreadful time?

I dont think bush is handling this very well at all with people still stuck almost a week after the event.

[Roman]

I'm Canadian so I may not know any better, but I find it hard to believe that Bush could actually arrange for the 'whites' to be evacuated before the 'blacks'. At best he gave a general evacuation order and if there was an racism, it was on a lower level.

[SEbasic]

And here was I thinking this was going to be an SEO related thread. :rolleyes:

[Roman]

And here was I thinking this was going to be an SEO related thread. :rolleyes:

Is the prsident a Senior Executive Officer?

[Nitin M]

There was no public transportation made available for transportation out of the city prior to katrina coming into land. This was at a local/regional level, not a federal level. They had hoped/expected the levies to stand. The people that did not evacuate the city were primarily those without the means to do so (those without cars) and in new orleans, the majority of people at that econimic level are black. In many cases what seems to be racial bias is in actuality the reality that economic classes divide the have's from the have nots.

[wanboll]

Good post nitin.

I suppose the difference in class would have played a big part in it. But surely extra help should be given to those who are helpless.

Bush was warned 3 years ago about the 3 biggest problems that could hit the usa.
These were

1. a terrorist attack
2. Climate change
3. a large hurricane hitting the region in which it did

So surely there must, or should have been at least some kind of contingency plan in case this happened.

[debunked]

I posted in another thread about the buses that were sent in before to help evacuate, that basically left empty because no one got on. I don't have confirmation of this so I am hoping to find out if it is true or not. Also, if so, where were they going to bus all of the people?

[Nitin M]

I agree. Imagine how bad it would have been had Ktrina hit as a category 5 and made a direct hit. Hard to see how anyone involved can justify/explain the lack of planning for the worst case scenarios.

[wanboll]

im not from the usa so i may be wrong but isnt New Orleans like, highly prone to this type of weather.

Recent weathere phenomenom should have made us realise that anything is possible.

[zman]

Dont you think its a bit rascist how bush evacuated all the whites before the blacks and the difference in the way they are being treated during this dreadful time?

I dont think bush is handling this very well at all with people still stuck almost a week after the event.

That is by far the most rediculous thing you have ever posted.

I have a WHITE aunt and two WHITE cousins missing in New Orleans. This clearly is not about color.

Americans are trying to help Americans. Who the fuck cares about color?

Insulting to say the least.

[GTech]

I'm surprised it's doing as well as it is, considering an area the size of Great Brittan is under water. Not sure why we don't see anything about the other states that were affected. Maybe because they had a plan and executed it?

I don't think the "racist" BS is getting much traction. I saw Carol Lin on CNN Sunday shamelessly race-baiting Bishop T.D. Jakes in an interview about his reaction to the relief effort. She tried four times, each time more aggressively than the previous, to pull him into the race game, but he refused.

[debunked]

Maybe if people cared more about those suffering and less about their hatred towards bush???

Seems like that is all these threads are about - how much one hates the Pres.

[wanboll]

Im sorry i didnt mean to be insulting and im obviously not racist.

Im very sorry to hear about your family and i hope they are ok and well.

I wont add any more to this post as i dont want to upset anyone else. sorry.

[zman]

Sorry for my outburst Gtech, I am just having a hard time believing people are playing the race card here.

I find it quite insulting and a very low attack from a political standpoint. Politics should have nothing to do with this.

There are bodies floating in rotten water. There are people that were ripped from children and parents. Virtually everyone lost everything they knew to be life. All this is going on and you have people saying that race was involved.

I have family that is missing. I do not know them well but they are still family. Please do not try and make this into a political event. It really is insulting.

[Crazy_Rob]

I am just having a hard time believing people are playing the race card here.

What is your definition of "playing the race card"?

You say it often and I'm just wondering exactly what you mean.

[zman]

CR, refer to the original post.

[GTech]

Sorry for my outburst Gtech, I am just having a hard time believing people are playing the race card here.


I hear ya. I would have never thought it would be played either, but we're talking about the left wing of our country. There is no unsacred ground to which they will not go to. Shameful as it is.

While good Americans pull together in a time of need, we can always count on the left to resort to this level. What else would they do?

[Crazy_Rob]

That doesn't answer my question, zman.

It seems like we have another person that doesn't believe racism exists! :D

You might feel differently if your ancestors were SLAVES just a few generations ago!

I personally know of people who aren't concerned for these people because they are black. They've told me flat out, "Who gives a shit, they're a bunch of dumb N-words!"

Do I think Bush said, "F. 'em, they're blacks!" No, but I really feel that the response would have been more swift had the people been white and/or not poor.

[wanboll]

Well said crazy rob

[GTech]

What is the response time Rob? What about the poor and black in the other states that were hit?

[wanboll]

They should have all been treated like equals as well

[zman]

It seems like we have another person that doesn't believe racism exists!

Racism exists in America. No person disputes that.

What is important to me is that people are dying and hurting in the southern states. We need to help them.

It seems to me that you are more concerned about turning this into a race issue. I understand why, I just dont understand why you cant wait a few days while we try to come together as a country and solve this problem.

If you want to attack the feds then fine, just try and have the decency to wait until this is under control and people who need help have gotten it.

Is that too much to ask?

[Crazy_Rob]

What is the response time Rob? What about the poor and black in the other states that were hit?


There are many stranded and dead in OTHER STATES too, Gtech!

[GTech]

You didn't answer my question Rob.

[Crazy_Rob]

It seems to me that you are more concerned about turning this into a race issue. I understand why, I just dont understand why you cant wait a few days while we try to come together as a country and solve this problem.


I've spent much money and quite a few hours trying to help these people.

Tell me why you think I'm "more concerned" about turning this into a race issue.


You didn't answer my question Rob.

Yes I did. And if you don't think it's adequate, too bad! :p

[GTech]

Tell me why you think I'm "more concerned" about turning this into a rcae issue.

Maybe it was this? :confused:


No, but I really feel that the response would have been more swift had the people been white and/or not poor.


What is the response time?

[zman]

Tell me why you think I'm "more concerned" about turning this into a race issue.


No need. People can read.

[TommyD]

Some stuff I found interesting:

http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/newsrelated/katrinaheedevac.htm

Unused City busses: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050901/480/flpc21109012015

tom

[Crazy_Rob]

No need. People can read.


Yeah, that's what I thought!

As you've done in the past, you've spoken from your ass without thinking first!
:rolleyes:

[soapbath]

Also note alot of the whites saved was only saved first for diplomatic reasons, such as the English and people from other countries, it would be a big issue if Bush left them to die (In political eyes)

[GTech]

Yeah, that's what I thought!

As you've done in the past, you've spoken from your ass without thinking first!
:rolleyes:

Would that classify your comment below as flatulence?


No, but I really feel that the response would have been more swift had the people been white and/or not poor.

[zman]

Yeah, that's what I thought!

As you've done in the past, you've spoken from your ass without thinking first!

Again, people can read. ;)

[Liminal]

Also note alot of the whites saved was only saved first for diplomatic reasons, such as the English and people from other countries, it would be a big issue if Bush left them to die (In political eyes)

got urls?
.
.
.

[soapbath]

Zman, I like you so please don't start being a bitch ;).

devbistro: No, just a thought (based on knowing how many English whites was out there)

[zman]

Zman, I like you so please don't start being a bitch

Huh? What was that supposed to mean? Can you please go back and quote something from me that would warrant such a comment?

[GTech]

megangee, the rep doesn't work when you have zero posts :D

Too afraid to join the conversation?

[zman]

megangee, the rep doesn't work when you have zero posts

I got one as well. Funny isnt it?

[GTech]

Yep, freshly created account too, and drawn to this very post. Makes ya wonder ;)

[soapbath]

That is by far the most rediculous thing you have ever posted.

I have a WHITE aunt and two WHITE cousins missing in New Orleans. This clearly is not about color.

Americans are trying to help Americans. Who the fuck cares about color?

Insulting to say the least.

I know you said sorry, and im sorry also for saying what I said, but a topic like this creates a debate, debates (sp?) should be clean and mature.

[zman]

Calling someone who is offendid a bitch is not clean and mature now is it?

[soapbath]

Z, I was not calling you a bitch, so far its been a nice topic what I mean is don't turn this into a bitch fight (Unless your all hot chicks with oil.. mm)

[debunked]

Bush this, bush that.... Blame bush and hope it sticks.....

I am sure he didn't do everything perfect, but if people only try to blame bush then they will miss where the blame really falls, and NOTHING will get changed. But then again, do people care if change happens or just care they can make the guy they hate look bad??

I am sick of the blame game, just get some facts first. Like- "I saw bush pulling the whites out only and telling black people to go home. " or " Bush called the person in charge of evacuations and said to keep the doors closed on the buses heading into the poor black neighborhoods, and he said to shoot those who disobeyed orders." come on, and get real for pete's sake!

Maybe to make things fair, bush should blow up a pharma plant in some other country to take the focus off of him!

[zman]

There are bodies floating in rotten water. There are people that were ripped from children and parents. Virtually everyone lost everything they knew to be life.

Just wanted to quote myself and make it known what should be the most important issue here.

[Crazy_Rob]

Just wanted to quote myself and make it known what should be the most important issue here.

So do something about it if you haven't already!

You say it should be the most important issue...yet you can't let anyone else get the last word in in these threads. :rolleyes:

[zman]

Donated $400 to Red Cross. Drove right down to the Newstalk KOH headquarters and gave it right then and there.

Threads are not meant to have last words. They are meant to be open for discussion.

[Crazy_Rob]

Threads are not meant to have last words. They are meant to be open for discussion.

If you want to attack the feds then fine, just try and have the decency to wait until this is under control and people who need help have gotten it.


Let me know when it's ok then, zman!

Just PM me when it's OK to discuss things like this. :rolleyes:

[zman]

Let me know when it's ok then, zman!

Just PM me when it's free to discuss things like this.

lol, you crack me up. Try and make some sense will ya?

Edit:

There are bodies floating in rotten water. There are people that were ripped from children and parents. Virtually everyone lost everything they knew to be life.

Again, this is what is important. Go back and read the original post. If you would like to discuss that then lets move on with the thread. Otherwise we'll just continue to read your pointless attempts to derail the issue at hand.

[Hodgedup]

Racism not only exists, but is everywhere. Racism isn’t just a white against black thing. I’d say there is some form of racism from every ethnicity toward ever other ethnicity.

As far as groups turning this into a ‘race issue’ or playing the ‘race card’ there are a number of groups that specifically use race as an issue at every chance they get (black, white, latino, ect).

I think the slow response time is more an issue of class then race, however since such a large percentage of people in NO are black then it ended up being a race issue.

[zman]

Racism not only exists, but is everywhere. Racism isn’t just a white against black thing. I’d say there is some form of racism from every ethnicity toward ever other ethnicity.

As far as groups turning this into a ‘race issue’ or playing the ‘race card’ there are a number of groups that specifically use race as an issue at every chance they get (black, white, latino, ect).

I think the slow response time is more an issue of class then race, however since such a large percentage of people in NO are black then it ended up being a race issue.

Great post! As much as wish it were not true, I think you are right.

[gworld]

Maybe if people cared more about those suffering and less about their hatred towards bush???

Seems like that is all these threads are about - how much one hates the Pres.

I wonder why?:rolleyes: :)

[zman]

I wonder why?

gworld I was wondering where ya were. Glad you could join. :)

[wanboll]

Whoever gave me the bad rep for not posting facts thats fair enough. but you should get your facts right too. what you see on television and read in the papers are not nescaserily facts. It could be complete bullshit. So if you want to get all these links and prove yourselves right your being very very naive. Everybody knows media lies and the government play a huge part in what is broadcast.

Obviosly you guys are getting all your information from the media.

Try sourcing some real facts and not government released bollox facts.

Heres a start if you need some help


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml

www.schnews.co.uk

There are plenty more of these sites but if you are realy interested and care as much as you make out then you can search for them yourself.

[zman]

Obviosly you guys are getting all your information from the media.


I only watch the news in the morning and turn the sound off. I only need to see what is scrolling at the bottom to get the idea.

I choose to listen to my family. They live in Arkansas and Louisiana and can much more trusted then your opinions or the media.

So if you want to get all these links and prove yourselves right your being very very naive.

That is why I use close family and friends for info. ;)

As far as your links go...

I wrote link number two off because of one of the first few lines I read:
it was all poor black people and old white people

Interesting. My aunt is in her early 40's and my cousins are 19 and 25. We havent heard from any of them. Not a peep. They are not a color, they are American. And they are missing.

I wrote the "whatreallyhappened" link off right away because it really gets old seeing things like:

"Are you angry yet?"
"The lie of the century"

There is a link to the left that says:
"Click for torture scandal links"

And I do not see one thing on the site asking for help for the victims. Not one.

You would be better off going to Micheal Moores website IMHO.


On the other link I read:
In defence of the right to protest, recently criminalised, s132 Serious Organised Crime and Police Act (April 2005) we are defying this law by holding our weekly event in Parliament Square in order to challenge and poke a little fun at the powers.

Oh I see. You want me to trust a news source that openly breaks the law and disrespects the democratic government. :rolleyes:


Care to try again?

[wanboll]

No isaid it all there.

Sop you watch the news and read the bottom, huh. Same thing isnt it.

You get all your information from family members. - what the fuck do they know, if there anytyhing like you then a lot of media bollox. They dont no any more than me, you or any other citizen in the world so its a pretty poor source for info.

So you wrote a link of because you didnt like what it said - nothing new there then, your obviously set in your ways and not even willing to see things from someone elses point of view.

You wrote the whatrealyhappened one of because uv had ebough of things like that. Just because you have had enough doesnt mean its not true. thats a good site and your not going to learn by not reading things. set in your ways.

Has micheal moore even got a website?

the last one, lol, there holding a mini protest by the looks of it. Hardly breaking the law as every person has the right to protest. i think what they meant if you bothered to read was upset the local police, which isnt that bad at all.

So in all you get your info from the news and, lol, family members.
Your unwilling to learn the truth or see things from others points of view.
You are totaly brainwashed by your shite government and you believe everything they say.

GOD HELP YOU

[debunked]

I only watch the news in the morning and turn the sound off. I only need to see what is scrolling at the bottom to get the idea.

I choose to listen to my family. They live in Arkansas and Louisiana and can much more trusted then your opinions or the media.

That is why I use close family and friends for info. ;)
As far as your links go...
I wrote link number two off because of one of the first few lines I read:
Interesting. My aunt is in her early 40's and my cousins are 19 and 25. We havent heard from any of them. Not a peep. They are not a color, they are American. And they are missing.
I wrote the "whatreallyhappened" link off right away because it really gets old seeing things like:
"Are you angry yet?"
"The lie of the century"

There is a link to the left that says:
"Click for torture scandal links"

And I do not see one thing on the site asking for help for the victims. Not one.
You would be better off going to Micheal Moores website IMHO.
On the other link I read:
Oh I see. You want me to trust a news source that openly breaks the law and disrespects the democratic government. :rolleyes:
Care to try again?


You aren't the only one that wrote them off, I did read around some, but found it a waste of time, just like when I get caught up reading stuff about the raelians or some conspiracy theory site, lots of stuff, but little evidence that they are anything but fiction.

[wanboll]

Wheres the evidence for all these facts you lot keep coming up with, the media and lol, famnily friends. your government doesnt let you or the media no anything it doesnt want you to know.

And like i said, theres a start. its all i could be bothered looking for. If you want to know the truth you need to change your sources and look a little deeper

[zman]

No isaid it all there.

Sop you watch the news and read the bottom, huh. Same thing isnt it.

You get all your information from family members. - what the fuck do they know, if there anytyhing like you then a lot of media bollox. They dont no any more than me, you or any other citizen in the world so its a pretty poor source for info.

So you wrote a link of because you didnt like what it said - nothing new there then, your obviously set in your ways and not even willing to see things from someone elses point of view.

You wrote the whatrealyhappened one of because uv had ebough of things like that. Just because you have had enough doesnt mean its not true. thats a good site and your not going to learn by not reading things. set in your ways.

Has micheal moore even got a website?

the last one, lol, there holding a mini protest by the looks of it. Hardly breaking the law as every person has the right to protest. i think what they meant if you bothered to read was upset the local police, which isnt that bad at all.

So in all you get your info from the news and, lol, family members.
Your unwilling to learn the truth or see things from others points of view.
You are totaly brainwashed by your shite government and you believe everything they say.

GOD HELP YOU

Oh ok. After posting the links you posted dont you think your post is a bit ironic? :rolleyes:

You get all your information from family members. - what the fuck do they know, if there anytyhing like you then a lot of media bollox.

First of all. They know how to show respect for the dead and hurting. Secondly, they know about the surroundings they live in and what is heppening in them. Something you only trust links on and try and paint others as doing the same.

Wanboll, dont get upset at those of us who can think for ourselves for doing just that. ;)


EDIT:

Wheres the evidence for all these facts you lot keep coming up with, the media and lol, famnily friends.

lol, yeah it makes sense to not trust those you trust right? Come on man, my family is flesh and blood and I would buy what they say over a site you post anyday.

[wanboll]

im not.

You dont now me and you dont no what i no so who are you to say i only trust links or whatever lol.

So they know what you know? They know what every human should know and thats just basicly common sence what you said then.

I posted them links as an example so dont take them to seriously. AN EXAMPLE. i said do your own research.

[zman]

I posted them links as an example so dont take them to seriously.

Dont worry, I didnt. :)


You dont now me and you dont no what i no so who are you to say i only trust links or whatever lol.

Your right. I dont know you. I also know that you dont know what you are talking about. You have been asked to post proof and you posted links to main pages of sites that are vehicles of the left that aim to hurt America.

Then when I called your BS links you wrote them off as "examples". Well, I dont think you were asked for "examples". :rolleyes:


So they know what you know? They know what every human should know and thats just basicly common sence what you said then.

No. They know what they know. Could it be any easier to understand?

[wanboll]

No it couldnt be any easier

But you say thats where you get your information from. How can they know any more than the rest of us. just seems a silly place to get your info from.

i know what im talking about and now im asking you for proof to back up your claims.

I dont want nothing from any media or government sourced proof though.

[zman]

LMAO! Dude you are a funny one. Lets take a look at your post.

But you say thats where you get your information from. How can they know any more than the rest of us. just seems a silly place to get your info from.


ummm... because they live there. :eek:

just seems a silly place to get your info from.


Some people do really trust the people they trust you know?

Silly place to get info? As opposed to what?

These:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml

www.schnews.co.uk

:p


i know what im talking about and now im asking you for proof to back up your claims.


Claims of what?

I have not claimed anything. :rolleyes:

I simply have been saying that Americans are dying and need help and we should make that a focus and play the blame game later.

[wanboll]

Just because they live there doesnt mean they know anymore than me in england or someone in africa or someone at the top of canada.

They are probably even more clueless because of the chaos and lack of communication. They only know whats going on immediately around them.

Just because you trust someone doesnt mean there right

You didnt want to look at them sites because you dont want to find out what your government is realy like

[zman]

Just because they live there doesnt mean they know anymore than me in england or someone in africa or someone at the top of canada.

Its called common sense. :rolleyes:

So I ask you this, and lets put in on an ABC's level, about what you are saying.

You have a brother who is a business partner and has been your best friend all of your life. Something happens in his part of the world and you are 3,000 miles away. The media, the government, and people who think they know better are telling you one thing, brother is saying another.

Who would you trust? I choose the common sense approach. ;)

They are probably even more clueless because of the chaos and lack of communication. They only know whats going on immediately around them.

You know what they say about assuming right?

Anyways, most of my family is in Arkansas (Hot Springs to be exact). My brother drove down south two days ago to try and help but was turned away.

Furthermore, insulting my family isnt going to help your cause. They are not clueless as they too can think for themselves.


Just because you trust someone doesnt mean there right

True statement. You should take heed.

You didnt want to look at them sites because you dont want to find out what your government is realy like

No actually I didnt want to look at them because I didnt want to look at them.

I already know my government leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, but what is important to me and I have said this time and time again is that PEOPLE ARE DYING AND NEED OUR HELP AND SUPPORT.

Seems you would rather try and prove it is about race. :rolleyes:

[wanboll]

Well you turned this post into something it wasnt and now you keep trying to take it back to the point. This debate isnt about whats happened in new oprleans any more. It was but now its just about how much of a prick you are.

Bring on the red reps all you zman lovers

[zman]

So I said this:

I already know my government leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, but what is important to me and I have said this time and time again is that PEOPLE ARE DYING AND NEED OUR HELP AND SUPPORT.

Seems you would rather try and prove it is about race.

And you counter with this:

Well you turned this post into something it wasnt and now you keep trying to take it back to the point. This debate isnt about whats happened in new oprleans any more. It was but now its just about how much of a prick you are.

Bring on the red reps all you zman lovers

You are a real piece of work. :rolleyes:

EDIT:
Well you turned this post into something it wasnt and now you keep trying to take it back to the point.

Its called "staying on topic".

[debunked]

Well you turned this post into something it wasnt and now you keep trying to take it back to the point. This debate isnt about whats happened in new oprleans any more. It was but now its just about how much of a prick you are.

Bring on the red reps all you zman lovers

I think someone needs to step away from the keyboard before he/she gets hurt.....

[zman]

I think someone needs to step away from the keyboard before he/she gets hurt.....

Love to watch the foot in mouth syndrom unfold. :)

[wanboll]

Have to get your head in dont you debunked lol

[zman]

Have to get your head in dont you debunked

Well it is good to see that someone is.

[wanboll]

whats this, your back-up.

[zman]

Back up for what? Are you actually surprised that I am not the only person to disagree with you?

Oh and you never answered this question:
You have a brother who is a business partner and has been your best friend all of your life. Something happens in his part of the world and you are 3,000 miles away. The media, the government, and people who think they know better are telling you one thing, brother is saying another.

Who would you trust?

Also, where are you from if you dont mind?

[wanboll]

you already know who i would trust. read your post again. Not the media, not the government not people like you who think they know better. figure it out.

Nobodys posting because they dont want the bad reps, can you not see that.

Im from chester in th UK. and yes, my government is as corrupt as yours. why you wanna know. fancy a fight

[zman]

Ahh I see. So we have established the following:

1) You would choose the brother and would trust the family
2) You live across the ocean from those who live in the southern part of the states so you really dont know better than those who live there
3) You have not been able to provide proof for your accusations

So lets start all over. How is it that you believe this disaster is so bad because of race?

[isaiasd2003]

Apparently it does.

Dont you think its a bit rascist how bush evacuated all the whites before the blacks and the difference in the way they are being treated during this dreadful time?

I dont think bush is handling this very well at all with people still stuck almost a week after the event.
do you have video of this accusation, or is it just your assumption?:confused: :cool:

[zman]

do you have video of this accusation, or is it just your assumption?

100% assumption. He gave up his rant.
http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=27467

[PlanetAndrea]

the difference in the black/white issue was address on msnbc the other night, the majority of the people left (primarily black) did not have a way out, they didn't have either transportation, or anywhere else to go, and most of them are from extremely low income families.

[debunked]

Anyone care to tell me how many miles it would have been to walk to the nearest city that was not under water? (I am assuming that a person didn't have a car to drive out and didn't want to get on the buses or no buses came?? So if it was me and my family how far would I have to walk?)

[zman]

Ive heard 5 miles for some people.

[PlanetAndrea]

Map of area hit (http://ngs.woc.noaa.gov/katrina/KATRINA0000.HTM)

[wanboll]

I gave up my rant cause i went to bed, You want proof search for it like i said. its there, iv got things to do today.

[digimania]

Is the prsident a Senior Executive Officer?
Wow, looks like this post has given this thread some sense. :D

[minstrel]

That is by far the most rediculous thing you have ever posted.

I have a WHITE aunt and two WHITE cousins missing in New Orleans. This clearly is not about color.

Americans are trying to help Americans. Who the fuck cares about color?

Insulting to say the least.
Exactly. Well put, zman.

[minstrel]

Do I think Bush said, "F. 'em, they're blacks!" No, but I really feel that the response would have been more swift had the people been white and/or not poor.
Or the other way 'round. The Republicans are courting the black vote currently.

I don't think race has anything to do with this. At all.

[minstrel]

Whoever gave me the bad rep for not posting facts thats fair enough. but you should get your facts right too. what you see on television and read in the papers are not nescaserily facts. It could be complete bullshit. So if you want to get all these links and prove yourselves right your being very very naive. Everybody knows media lies and the government play a huge part in what is broadcast.

Obviosly you guys are getting all your information from the media.

Try sourcing some real facts and not government released bollox facts.

Heres a start if you need some help


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/
http://www.indymedia.org/en/index.shtml
www.schnews.co.uk

There are plenty more of these sites but if you are realy interested and care as much as you make out then you can search for them yourself.
Question: What makes you think these are any more accurate as sources of information?

Answer: Because they are presenting a spin which is consistent with what you already believe.

Real journalism is pretty much dead world wide. Reporters don't report any more -- the editorialize. On both sides (all sides) of any issue. If you really want to get an accurate picture of what is going on, read ALL of the reports from ALL sides of an issue. Read them critically. Filter out what is there as rhetoric or opinion or just plain blatant propaganda. Look for what is actually supported by evidence/data and don't assume that because the writer says there is evidence that it actually exists -- never rely on third party data -- go to the source and then verify that information.

Anything else is just another form of brainwashing.

[minstrel]

Just because they live there doesnt mean they know anymore than me in england or someone in africa or someone at the top of canada.

They are probably even more clueless because of the chaos and lack of communication. They only know whats going on immediately around them.

Just because you trust someone doesnt mean there right

You didnt want to look at them sites because you dont want to find out what your government is realy like
Let me make sure I understand you. You put more credibility in propaganda emanating from sources with an obvious axe to grind and sources who haven't been anywhere even close to "ground zero" than in the reports of people who are actually there and living it?

[Reviews]

The journalism isn't in good shape anymore.

[monRa]

That is by far the most rediculous thing you have ever posted.

I have a WHITE aunt and two WHITE cousins missing in New Orleans. This clearly is not about color.

Americans are trying to help Americans. Who the fuck cares about color?

Insulting to say the least.
I think you rpresident does, the same thing happens to Florida, they didn't let black people vote, how do you think bush became presdinet?

[ViciousSummer]

Your crazy, Crazy Rob. 1st of all the president is a puppet. He does not make the decisions. 2nd of all, do you really think it would be in any of his interest to not do everything he could to help. Racism does exist, but this tragedy has nothing to do with racism....I really feel that the response would have been more swift had the people been white and/or not poor.The problem is that these people ARE poor and lack the means of escaping, which is the entire problem to begin with. SO, if these people had not been poor, they would have had the means to get the f*$^ out and the Pres wouldn't need to swoop in and save them :rolleyes:. Since New Orleans is in essence a "poor" city, the demand of so many people needing "saving" completely took the government by surprise and they just didn't have the resources readily available. For example, if a hurricane hit San Diego, everyone would have been evacuated before it hit (since the majority of the people have the means to do so), and we even have BLACK people here :rolleyes:. Again, NOTHING to do with race, if anything it has to do with social class.

[wanboll]

When you live in an area prone to hurricanes there should be enough resources to hand in case of a crisis like this, especialy in the hurricane season.

[monRa]

crisis like this, especialy in the hurricane season.
you forgot everyone goes to Iraq

[wanboll]

What do you mean monRa

[docquesting]

You know people that blame everything bad that happens on the President are a bunch of lunatics and dont use their brains. These type of people have thier head in the sand by the other parties that want them to think bad things.

Fact 1. Its not The Presidents fualt that those who were warned by local gov officials didnt get out when they were told to. he had nothing to do with it.

Fact 2. He is the only President that I know who "gets his hands dirty" by getting in there and auctully doing physical labor to help people. No other President has done such a thing. Tell me who cares more now. Another example of this when Florida got hit. Instead of preparing his spech during his last Florida campaign he was passing out water and other items to those in need in that hurricane.

Fact 3. He has got on the ball and passed over 60 billlion in relief funds and allowed other countries to send aid.

Fact 4. There are many other examples I could pull up if I wanted abut how he has helped hands on without being political about it but becuase he cares.

Fact 5. Where is Oprah with her millions and The Black poloticians and other liberals who claim to care about black people? They are sitting in thier cozy offices spreading hate and other lies and not doing any hands on work that you are bashing the ones who are doing it.

Some people really dont make sence and zyam has said some very good points all ready about things along this line. You guys who are bashing need to take a step back and reavulate who really needs bashing. Think before you type and dont be just a sheep being lead along.

Actions speak louder than words.

[wanboll]

Fact 1, fair enough, they should have listened.

Fact 2, If hes passing water out think how many people are there gaurding him, they could be put to better use if he wasnt there doing his publicity stunt.

Fact 3, hes passed over 60 billion and hes ALLOWING aid, to fuckin right he should, Its a lot more than he done when the tsunami hit. The british public raised a few hundred million for the tsunami and we felt pretty proud of ourselves even though it was measly, we will do the same for this. Still not a patch on 60 billion. He was even struggling to cancel africas debt during the g8 the stingy cunt.

Fact 4, i cant think of any.

Fact 5, Dont have a clue what there doin and i dont rearly care, If they care like they so they do they are probably doing something to raise money.

[zman]

lmao! Someone just shot a red rep my way on this thread that says

"DONT WRITE BAD WORDS"

A) Grow up!
B) Your new so your rep doesnt mean SHIT

[mikmik]

Some people really dont make sence and zyam has said some very good points all ready about things along this line. You guys who are bashing need to take a step back and reavulate who really needs bashing. Think before you type and dont be just a sheep being lead along.

LMAO!!!
Poll: Most Say Abandon Flooded New Orleans - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050909/ap_on_re_us/katrina_ap_poll_hk1)
Friday, September 09, 2005 5:51:14 AM GMT-7


Almost two-thirds, 65 percent, say the country is headed in the wrong direction ? up from 59 percent last month.

President Bush's job approval was at 39 percent, the lowest point since AP-Ipsos began measuring public approval of Bush in December 2003.

Two-thirds of those surveyed say the federal government was not adequately prepared to respond to the disaster. And about the same number said the state and local governments deserve much of the blame for the slow response.


Bush appointed Brown, and he passed the law that said disaster relief is a federal responsibility.
Bush faces new questions on relief (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050909/ts_nm/katrina_dc)- Yahoo! News
Friday, September 09, 2005 5:56:18 AM GMT-7


NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - With

President George W. Bush promising to speed help to anxious and frustrated survivors of Hurricane Katrina, questions emerged on Friday over the qualifications of those leading the relief effort.


Many of those at the top of the U.S. agency charged with managing disaster relief had no emergency oversight experience but did have political ties to Bush, the Washington Post reported.

In addition, embattled

Federal Emergency Management Agency director Michael Brown had less experience in disaster relief than described in his official agency biography and cited during his confirmation hearing, Time magazine reported. It quoted a local official as saying a prior job was "more like an intern" than a manager.

Along the U.S. Gulf Coast rescue and recovery teams continued searching for the dead and trying to evacuate the few remaining holdouts from the once vibrant New Orleans, today a flooded and stinking ghost town.

In Washington, Bush administration officials were busy rushing fresh aid to the region while also trying to blunt the political fallout over the federal response to what, at an estimated $100 billion to $200 billion, could be the costliest natural disaster in U.S. history.

A Pew Research Center poll found 67 percent of Americans thought Bush could have done more to speed up relief efforts, and just 28 percent believed he did all he could. The president's approval rating fell to 40 percent, down four points since July to the lowest point Pew has recorded


Again:Poll: Most Say Abandon Flooded New Orleans (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050909/ap_on_re_us/katrina_ap_poll_hk1) - Yahoo! News
Friday, September 09, 2005 5:51:14 AM GMT-7


Almost two-thirds, 65 percent, say the country is headed in the wrong direction ? up from 59 percent last month.

President Bush's job approval was at 39 percent, the lowest point since AP-Ipsos began measuring public approval of Bush in December 2003


May I remind you of this incredibly gross incometence:
Media provide forums for administration officia ... [Media Matters]
Thursday, September 08, 2005 5:59:10 AM GMT-7


In the past week, Bush administration officials and conservative commentators have repeatedly used the national media to spread misinformation about the federal government's widely criticized response to the devastation caused by Hurricane Katrina.

1. Bush: "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" (http://mediamatters.org/items/200509080002)


[QUOTE]1. Bush: "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees"

On the September 1 broadcast of ABC's Good Morning America, President Bush told host Diane Sawyer, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" that protected New Orleans from flooding. As Media Matters for America has noted, Sawyer did not challenge Bush's claim, despite numerous, repeated warnings by government officials, experts, and the media that a major hurricane could cause levee breaches resulting in catastrophic flooding. A September 2 New York Times front-page article repeated Bush's false claim without challenge -- even though a Times editorial the same day declared, "Disaster planners were well aware that New Orleans could be flooded by the combined effects of a hurricane and broken levees."

A September 5 CNN.com article reported that Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff falsely told reporters that "planners" did not predict a breach of the levees that would flood the city. As CNN.com reported, Chertoff said, "That 'perfect storm' of a combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners, and maybe anybody's foresight." But unlike the Times, CNN.com noted that "officials have warned for years that a Category 4 [hurricane] could cause the levees to fail." The CNN.com article added that in an August 31 interview on CNN's Larry King Live, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) director Michael Brown said, "That Category 4 hurricane caused the same kind of damage that we anticipated. So we planned for it two years ago. Last year, we exercised it. And unfortunately this year, we're implementing it." But in the same Larry King Live interview, Brown responded to complaints that rescue efforts were not moving quickly enough by insisting, "And I must say this storm is much, much bigger than anyone expected."

Additionally, as journalist Joshua Micah Marshall noted in his Talking Points Memo weblog, National Hurricane Center director Max Mayfield "talked about the force of Katrina during a video conference call to President Bush at his ranch in Crawford, Texas" on August 28 [St. Petersburg Times, 8/30/05]. The Washington Post quoted Mayfield on September 6: "They knew that this one was different. ... I don't think Mike Brown or anyone else in FEMA could have any reason to have any problem with our calls. ... They were told ... We said the levees could be topped."

[mikmik]

2. Chertoff strained credulity in defense of Bush, claimed levee breaks and massive flooding came as a surprise -- more than 12 hours after local media reported them

On September 4, Chertoff appeared on NBC's Meet the Press and attempted to explain Bush's discredited claim that "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." After host Tim Russert asked Chertoff how the president could "be so wrong, be so misinformed," Chertoff suggested that Bush had been referring to newspaper reports the morning after the storm that New Orleans had "dodged a bullet" because the eye of the storm had passed to the east of the city. But more than 12 hours before the appearance of those headlines in print, a post on the weblog of the New Orleans Times-Picayune -- dated August 29, 2 p.m. CT -- reported, "City Hall confirmed a breach of the levee along the 17th Street Canal at Bellaire Drive, allowing water to spill into Lakeview." This initial report on the Times-Picayune weblog was followed throughout the afternoon and evening of August 29 by reports of other levee breaks and massive flooding.

While Chertoff said he recognized that the city's levee system failed sometime Monday night or Tuesday morning -- in fact, the first breaks occurred earlier, as noted above and as Think Progress noted in its detailed Hurricane Katrina timeline -- he insisted that "it was midday Tuesday that I became aware of the fact that there was no possibility of plugging the gap and that essentially the lake [Pontchartrain] was going to start to drain into the city." According to Chertoff, this "second catastrophe really caught everybody by surprise" and was a major reason for the delay in the government's emergency response.

Questioning Chertoff further, Russert pointed out that the Times-Picayune published a five-part series in June 2002, in which it warned that if a large hurricane hit New Orleans, the city's levees would likely be topped or broken -- resulting in catastrophic flooding and thousands of deaths. Russert added that "last summer FEMA, who reports to you, and the LSU Hurricane Center, and local and state officials did a simulated Hurricane Pam in which the levees broke. ... Thousands drowned."

Chertoff then clarified, "What I said was not that we didn't anticipate that there's a possibility the levees will break. What I said was, in this storm, what happened is, the storm passed and passed without the levees breaking on Monday. Tuesday morning, I opened newspapers and saw headlines that said 'New Orleans Dodged the Bullet,' which surprised people. What surprised them was that the levee broke overnight and the next day and, in fact, collapsed. That was a surprise."

Even accepting as true Chertoff's incredible suggestion that he -- the secretary of Homeland Security -- and the president of the United States relied on the print media for their information on the situation in New Orleans, as Think Progress points out, had administration officials "bothered to read the full text of the three articles they found with favorable headlines, they would have realized that federal government help was needed immediately." Moreover, while Chertoff did not indicate which headlines he was referring to, many newspapers -- in addition to the Times-Picayune -- did report on broken levees and significant flooding. For example, on August 30, the Los Angeles Times reported that a levee break had occurred by late morning August 29, with water from the break "spill[ing] through the area, flooding the town's two main shelters and swamping the local National Guard armory, leaving even public safety officials homeless."

Or Chertoff could have turned on the television. On the August 30 broadcast of NBC's Today, NBC Nightly News anchor Brian Williams reported at 7:05 a.m. ET, "There has been a huge development overnight ... the historic French Quarter, dry last night and it is now filling with water. This is water from nearby Lake Pontchartrain; the levees failed overnight."

Indeed, Chertoff's and Bush's professed ignorance notwithstanding, the federal government was well aware of the continuing threat of the levees breaking. Just hours after the storm passed on Monday, August 29, FEMA director Brown confirmed that the potential for catastrophic flooding remained. In an interview with Brown, NBC Today co-host Matt Lauer noted, "In New Orleans, in particular, they're worried about the levees giving way or the canals not holding, and they're worried about toxic runoff." Brown responded that even though the storm had weakened, there was still a 15- to 20-foot storm surge causing "the water out of Lake Pontchartrain and the Gulf and the Mississippi continue to converge upon Louisiana." Brown added, "So we're still ready for a major disaster."

3. Brown: "We've provided food to the people at the Convention Center so that they've gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day"

On the September 2 broadcast of NBC's Today, FEMA director Brown told host Katie Couric, "We've provided food to the people at the [New Orleans' Morial] Convention Center so that they've gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day." Couric did not challenge this statement.

But on September 1, NBC News photojournalist Tony Zumbado reported on MSNBC Live:

ZUMBADO: I can't put it into words the amount of destruction that is in this city and how these people are coping. They are just left behind. There is nothing offered to them. No water, no ice, no C-rations, nothing, for the last four days. They were told to go to the convention center. They did, they've been behaving. It's unbelievable how organized they are, how supportive they are of each other. They have not started any melees, any riots. They just want food and support. And what I saw there I've never seen in this country. We need to really look at this situation at the convention center. It's getting very, very crazy in there and very dangerous. Somebody needs to come down with a lot of food and a lot of water.4. Chertoff: "Apparently, some time on Wednesday, people started to go to the convention center spontaneously"

On the September 1 edition of CNN's Paula Zahn Now, Brown claimed, "Every person in that convention center, we just learned about that today [Thursday, September 1]." During a September 4 interview with Chertoff on CNN Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, host Blitzer replayed Brown's comments. In response, Chertoff said:

CHERTOFF: Well, I mean, this is clearly something that was disturbing. It was disturbing to me when I learned about it, which came as a surprise. You know, the very day that this emerged in the press, I was on a video conference with all the officials, including state and local officials. And nobody -- none of the state and local officials or anybody else -- was talking about a convention center. The original plan, as I understand it, was to have the Superdome be the place of refuge, of last resort. Apparently, some time on Wednesday, people started to go to the convention center spontaneously.

Chertoff's claim that hurricane survivors sought refuge in the convention center under their own initiative echoed his September 4 Meet the Press interview, in which he suggested, "We became aware of the fact at some point that people began to go to the convention center on their own, spontaneously, in order to shelter there." Chertoff's statements were false, but neither Blitzer nor Russert challenged them.

Though scenes of thousands of hurricane victims awaiting water, food, and buses at the convention center were not broadcast on television until Thursday, September 1, Chertoff and Brown would have had access to media reports about the convention center before then. As early as August 29, Times-Picayune staff writer Bruce Nolan wrote an article for the Newhouse News Service in which he reported, "City officials said they might open the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center as a temporary refuge to shelter an estimated 50,000 people made homeless by the storm." Nolan's article appeared in the Times-Picayune on August 30.

Beginning August 31, other reports of survivors at the convention center emerged:

Knight Ridder, August 31: "Derwin DeGruy had been kicked out of two hotels, the first on Sunday right before the storm hit, and the second one on Tuesday morning after it hit. He and about 50 other people found makeshift shelter on a ramp leading to the mall and parking garage at the New Orleans Convention Center. They rigged places for people to go to the bathroom, pooled their water for the babies, placed some blankets on the concrete and decided to wait and see what happened."
Associated Press, August 31: "The 37-year-old banker -- who admitted to looting some food from a nearby supermarket -- said the hotel guests were told they were being taken to a convention center, but from there, they didn't know."
Associated Press, August 31: "After several hours, a small fleet of rented moving trucks showed up to take the people to the downtown convention center so they could be taken out of the city. Police herded people up metal ramps like cattle into the unrefrigerated boxes."
By September 1, when Brown claimed FEMA first learned about the situation at the convention center, TV networks were broadcasting footage of thousands of survivors waiting for water, food, and evacuation buses. Despite Chertoff's later insistence that New Orleans residents "spontaneously" converged on the convention center, the September 1 broadcast of ABC's Nightline included footage of a law enforcement official instructing survivors to go there:

SURVIVOR: Ain't nobody helping us.

LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL: I understand.

SURVIVOR: No, ain't nobody doing anything for us.

LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL: Y'all got to go to the convention center.

[mikmik]

5. Chertoff pointed fingers: "New Orleans officials and the state officials ... called for the Superdome to be the refuge of last resort"

In his September 4 interview on NBC's Meet the Press, Chertoff attempted to place blame for the conditions at the Superdome solely with state and local officials. Chertoff asserted, "My understanding is, and again this is something that's going to go back -- we're going to go back over after the fact -- is the plan that the New Orleans officials and the state officials put together called for the Superdome to be the refuge of last resort."

But this claim is misleading at best. As The Washington Post reported on September 3, a FEMA official acknowledged participating in meetings in which the plan to use the Superdome as a shelter for thousands of evacuees was discussed:

Brown, the agency's director, told reporters Saturday in Louisiana that he did not have a sense of what was coming last weekend.

"I was here on Saturday and Sunday, it was my belief, I'm trying to think of a better word than typical -- that minimizes, any hurricane is bad -- but we had the standard hurricane coming in here, that we could move in immediately on Monday and start doing our kind of response-recovery effort," he said. "Then the levees broke, and the levees went, you've seen it by the television coverage. That hampered our ability, made it even more complex."

But other officials said they warned well before Monday about what could happen. For years, said another senior FEMA official, he had sat at meetings where plans were discussed to send evacuees to the Superdome. "We used to stare at each other and say, 'This is the plan? Are you really using the Superdome?' People used to say, what if there is water around it? They didn't have an alternative," he recalled.

Moreover, the plan to use the Superdome as a shelter for evacuees was widely known. The 2002 Times-Picayune series on the potential for a catastrophic hurricane reported that of the estimated 200,000 New Orleans residents who would likely remain in the city, "[s]ome will be housed at the Superdome, the designated shelter in New Orleans for people too sick or infirm to leave the city."

6. Chertoff falsely minimized federal government's role in Katrina response as subordinate to states

The Bush administration has responded to criticism of its role in the Katrina disaster by attempting to deflect blame onto state and local officials in Louisiana [The New York Times, 9/5/05]. One way they are doing that is to claim that the federal government's role in a natural disaster of this magnitude is to provide support to state and local governments and work at their behest. Conservative media figures immediately fell into line, echoing the administration's claim that the federal government's role was subordinate (see here and here). In fact, the Department of Homeland Security's December 2004 National Response Plan clearly indicates that in these situations, the federal government will pre-empt state and local efforts and provide immediate assistance to the affected area.

On September 1, two days after the levees were breached, Chertoff, at a press conference announcing the start of "National Preparedness Month 2005," characterized the federal role in response to Katrina as that of providing support to state and local officials: "The Department of Homeland Security will continue to work with federal, state and local partners to support efforts on the ground in Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi and Florida. We are working tirelessly to make sure that federal resources are being applied where they are needed all across the Gulf" [Federal News Service, 9/1/05]. But on September 2, Chertoff told reporters that the situation had changed and that federal agencies would now take over the primary role: "The fact of the matter is, this set of catastrophes has broken any mold for how you deal with this kind of weather devastation, and so we're going to break the mold in terms of how we respond. The federal government is not going to play merely its customary role in giving all necessary support to first responders. The federal government is going to step up and take a primary role, working with state and locals to deal with the outcome of this tragedy." [National Public Radio, 9/3/05]

But Chertoff's September 1 statement ignored the administration's own homeland security response plan, which directed the federal government to act on its own authority to quickly provide assistance and conduct emergency operations following a major catastrophe, pre-empting state and local authorities if necessary. According to DHS' December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP), "catastrophic events," such as what occurred in New Orleans, call for heightened and "proactive" federal involvement to manage the disaster. The response plan listed "guiding principles" to govern the response to these major events. The "Guiding Principles for Proactive Federal Response" make clear that, in these "catastrophic" cases, the federal government will operate independently to provide assistance, rather than simply supporting or cajoling state authorities:

The primary mission is to save lives; protect critical infrastructure, property, and the environment; contain the event; and preserve national security.
Standard procedures regarding requests for assistance may be expedited or, under extreme circumstances, suspended in the immediate aftermath of an event of catastrophic magnitude.
Identified Federal response resources will deploy and begin necessary operations as required to commence life-safety activities.
Notification and full coordination with States will occur, but the coordination process must not delay or impede the rapid deployment and use of critical resources. States are urged to notify and coordinate with local governments regarding a proactive Federal response.
State and local governments are encouraged to conduct collaborative planning with the Federal Government as a part of "steady-state" preparedness for catastrophic incidents."
The NRP also says that, when responding to a catastrophic incident, the federal government should start emergency operations even in the absence of clear assessment of the situation. "A detailed and credible common operating picture may not be achievable for 24 to 48 hours (or longer) after the incident," the NRP's "Catastrophic Annex" states. "As a result, response activities must begin without the benefit of a detailed or complete situation and critical needs assessment."

A September 5 Los Angeles Times article quoted former FEMA chief of staff Jane Bullock saying that "[t]he moment the president declared a federal disaster [on Aug 29], it became a federal responsibility. ... The federal government took ownership over the response." Moreover, DHS' own website declares that DHS "will assume primary responsibility on March 1st [2005] for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort."

7. Wash. Post, Newsweek, Gingrich falsely claimed that Blanco did not declare a state of emergency

In recent days, two news articles falsely reported that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco had failed to declare a state of emergency, which had supposedly hampered the federal response. An article in the September 13 edition of Newsweek claimed that "Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco seemed uncertain and sluggish, hesitant to declare martial law or a state of emergency, which would have opened the door to more Pentagon help." Likewise, a September 4 Washington Post article incorrectly claimed that "As of Saturday [Sept. 3], Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency," citing an anonymous senior Bush administration official. (The Washington Post's article was later corrected, although Newsweek has yet to correct its article.) Fox News political analyst Newt Gingrich repeated the point on the September 5 O'Reilly Factor, saying, "As you [O'Reilly] point out, the governor [Blanco] failed to call the emergency. And initially, it was the governor who had to call an emergency." In fact, as the Post later noted, Blanco declared a state of emergency on August 26.

[minstrel]

When you live in an area prone to hurricanes there should be enough resources to hand in case of a crisis like this, especialy in the hurricane season.
Well, evidently (judging from your posts) you live in an area prone to idiocy -- shouldn't your government be doing something about THAT?

[mikmik]

8. Gingrich falsely claimed that Nagin could "have kept water pumped out" of city had he ensured that pumps worked

On the September 5 O'Reilly Factor, Gingrich also claimed that if New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin had been able to keep the New Orleans pumps working, the flood waters could have been pumped out of the city. "[F]irst of all, the mayor of New Orleans had a real obligation to make sure the four pumps could work. Three of them didn't. It would have kept water pumped out." In fact, New Orleans has 22 "notoriously fickle" pumping stations, according to an August 31 New York Times article. The Times also reported that, according to Dr. Shea Penland, a coastal geologist, "When the pumping systems are in good shape, it can rain an inch an hour for about four to six hours and the pumps can keep pace. More than that, the city floods." The Times also noted that "[e]fforts to add backup power generators to keep [the pumps] all running during blackouts have been delayed by a lack of federal money." A June 2002 Times-Picayune article, part of a series exploring the probable consequences of a major hurricane hitting New Orleans, indicated that New Orleans' pumps would have been overwhelmed by the rapidly rising floodwaters:

Soon waves will start breaking over the levee.

"All of a sudden you'll start seeing flowing water. It'll look like a weir, water just pouring over the top," [Louisiana State University engineer Joseph] Suhayda said. The water will flood the lakefront, filling up low-lying areas first, and continue its march south toward the river. There would be no stopping or slowing it; pumping systems would be overwhelmed and submerged in a matter of hours.

"Another scenario is that some part of the levee would fail," Suhayda said. "It's not something that's expected. But erosion occurs, and as levees broke, the break will get wider and wider. The water will flow through the city and stop only when it reaches the next higher thing. The most continuous barrier is the south levee, along the river. That's 25 feet high, so you'll see the water pile up on the river levee."

[/QUOTE]

I don't want to be hearing any more BS about Bush 'doing his job' or 'your just anti Bush.

Thousands of people lost their lives because of his stupidity. He didn't even address the matter for two days!!!! The people he put in charge, FEMA, screwed up because they were incompetent.

IT IS SO GLARINGLY OBVIOUS!!!! tHERE IS NO ARGUEING THAT BUSH AND CO. MAJORLY SCREWED THIS UP, SYATING YEARS AGO.

YA GET IT????

[zman]

You copy and paste jobs are crap. They prove nothing. I can show you exactly the opposite of that from copy and pasting from a source I chose.

Hows the koolaid taste?

http://www.private-designs.com/nokoolaid.gif

Question, do you always believe what you read or do you try and think a little for yourself once in a while?

[yfs1]

I'm not quite sure what that poll shows..It says:

And about the same number said the state and local governments deserve much of the blame for the slow response.

So which is it...Is it all Bush's fault or not?

[SEbasic]

You copy and paste jobs are crap. They prove nothing. I can show you exactly the opposite of that from copy and pasting from a source I chose.There is *no way* you could have read all that already...

I like that in a character - Able to decide the truth before they know the facts about something :rolleyes:

[Crazy_Rob]

There is *no way* you could have read all that already...

I like that in a character - Able to decide the truth before they know the facts about something :rolleyes:

zman doesn't like to read things. He'd rather throw insults and accusations around. You know, like a ten year old kid!

[Hodgedup]

Haha reading is FUNdamental.

[SEbasic]

Meh - I'm trying really hard not to get involved in these threads...

Like I said on page one - I thought this was going to be about SEO...

Shame it wasn't really...

I just don't think that any views will ever be changed through these sorts of discussion.

[Crazy_Rob]

Like I said on page one - I thought this was going to be about SEO...



A six page thread about SEO? Get real, MAN! :p

[SEbasic]

Yep - What was I thinking?!?!?

THis is DP we're talking about man ;)

It is a shame though - I could do a lot of flaming on a thread like that...

I haven't had much of an opportunity to recently... :(

[minstrel]

Meh - I'm trying really hard not to get involved in these threads...

Like I said on page one - I thought this was going to be about SEO...

Shame it wasn't really...

I just don't think that any views will ever be changed through these sorts of discussion.
I totally agree, Oliver. Every now and then I get involved against my better judgement and I always regret it.

There must be a million political forums out there -- why drag all this crap into a webmasters forum? Whatever your opinion, do you really think Bush or the US government or anyone who might actually do anything about your complaints is reading any of the threads on this forum? :rolleyes:

[Crazy_Rob]

Whatever your opinion, do you really think Bush or the US government or anyone who might actually do anything about your complaints is reading any of the threads on this forum? :rolleyes:

No way, he's too busy fishing! :eek: :p

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/robZ1/bush_fish.jpg

[SEbasic]

Awesome PS work - Where did you find that?

[Crazy_Rob]

Yeah, I thought it was pretty hilarious.

Someone sent it to me this morning.

[zman]

zman doesn't like to read things. He'd rather throw insults and accusations around. You know, like a ten year old kid!


Oh yeah accuse me of throwing around insults and end it with an insult. Real piece of work there Rob. :rolleyes:

[Hodgedup]

Does Bush not read the news? I mean doesn't he know what's in the water? Gross.

[debunked]

Does Bush not read the news? I mean doesn't he know what's in the water? Gross.

He was showing it was safe, like the old DDT commercials where they sprayed the people with the pesticide.

[Hodgedup]

He was showing it was safe, like the old DDT commercials where they sprayed the people with the pesticide.

Yeah my uncle did that. He now chases cars and pees on the carpet.

[minstrel]

Is that Venice?

[Hodgedup]

Yeah sorry about the rug, minstrel.

[debunked]

Is that Venice?

Are you suggesting we leave the water their and just rename the city?

You might be onto something..

[Hodgedup]

I thought he was asking if my uncle Venice was the one that pees on carpet.

[Blogmaster]

And here was I thinking this was going to be an SEO related thread. :rolleyes:
Me too :) I don't get into politically discussions anymore, so I'm out :D

[ViciousSummer]

...Nobodys posting because they dont want the bad reps, can you not see that....Like the one you gave me for posting :rolleyes:? I love two-faced people....haha.

[Crazy_Rob]

Like the one you gave me for posting :rolleyes:? I love two-faced people....haha.


Welcome to the DP political discussions! :D

[Blogmaster]

Like the one you gave me for posting ? I love two-faced people....haha.
We've got quite a few of them here :(:mad: ;) :cool:

[minstrel]

Me too I don't get into politically discussions anymore, so I'm out
No you're not. You came back in.

[Blogmaster]

No you're not. You came back in.
wow why did I have to click on "view post"? What do you care? And for the record: I didn't respond to the original political topic. So what's your point?

[minstrel]

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist :D

Now please put me back on ignore... I've been enjoying the peace...

[Blogmaster]

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist :D

Now please put me back on ignore... I've been enjoying the peace...
lol whatever dude, seeing a post of yours right after one of mine makes me suspicious :cool:

[minstrel]

Oh? Suspicious of what exactly?

[smindsrt]

Does Bush not read the news? I mean doesn't he know what's in the water? Gross.

He's more of a catch and release fisherman.

[Crazy_Rob]

Mike & Minstrel....YOU'RE BORING US!

http://www.tripsource.com/images/photos/JohnSones/john/BoyYawning%20OldQuarte.jpg

[minstrel]

He's more of a catch and release fisherman.
But how does he decide what to keep and what to release? :eek:

[smindsrt]

But how does he decide what to keep and what to release? :eek:

I guess you haven't been watching the news.

[minstrel]

Wlould it tell me what he's keeping? :eek:

[Blogmaster]

Oh? Suspicious of what exactly?The unpredictability of Minstrel.

[Blogmaster]

Anyways, I'm up for peace ... how about you? :cool:

[Blogmaster]

Mike & Minstrel....YOU'RE BORING US!

http://www.tripsource.com/images/photos/JohnSones/john/BoyYawning%20OldQuarte.jpg
Don't want you to fall asleep again :)

[ViciousSummer]

We've got quite a few of them here...Definately. It's always funny to catch people being two-faced since most of the newbies don't know that I can see who leaves rep :rolleyes:.

(And just for the record, I did not give him red rep back, since that wouldn't really be fair. He thought he was being sneaky...haha)
:D

[Blogmaster]

(And just for the record, I did not give him red rep back, since that wouldn't really be fair. He thought he was being sneaky...haha)
:D
Somehow I have a feeling he will get what he has coming without that ;)

[mikmik]

You copy and paste jobs are crap. They prove nothing. I can show you exactly the opposite of that from copy and pasting from a source I chose.

Hows the koolaid taste?
Good point. You win. Koolaid is great.

Christian cults drink kool aid, BTW. Oh, if you insist, go ahead then, show the opposite. I am waiting.....

Hurry up, you are boring me now. Let's see some scintillating logic, your majesty with deuction, your upending my paltry bleatings with one pull of the rug..

It is so easy, go ahead. I believe that I could swallow a gram of HCN and still outwit you.

Cmon, zman, start here:

. Bush: "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees"

On the September 1 broadcast of ABC's Good Morning America, President Bush told host Diane Sawyer, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" that protected New Orleans from flooding. As Media Matters for America has noted, Sawyer did not challenge Bush's claim, despite numerous, repeated warnings by government officials, experts, and the media that a major hurricane could cause levee breaches resulting in catastrophic flooding. A September 2 New York Times front-page article repeated Bush's false claim without challenge -- even though a Times editorial the same day declared, "Disaster planners were well aware that New Orleans could be flooded by the combined effects of a hurricane and broken levees."

A September 5 CNN.com article reported that Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff falsely told reporters that "planners" did not predict a breach of the levees that would flood the city. As CNN.com reported, Chertoff said, "That 'perfect storm' of a combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners, and maybe anybody's foresight." But unlike the Times, CNN.com noted that "officials have warned for years that a Category 4 [hurricane] could cause the levees to fail." The CNN.com article added that in an August 31 interview on CNN's Larry King Live, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) director Michael Brown said, "That Category 4 hurricane caused the same kind of damage that we anticipated. So we planned for it two years ago. Last year, we exercised it. And unfortunately this year, we're implementing it." But in the same Larry King Live interview, Brown responded to complaints that rescue efforts were not moving quickly enough by insisting, "And I must say this storm is much, much bigger than anyone expected."

Additionally, as journalist Joshua Micah Marshall noted in his Talking Points Memo weblog, National Hurricane Center director Max Mayfield "talked about the force of Katrina during a video conference call to President Bush at his ranch in Crawford, Texas" on August 28 [St. Petersburg Times, 8/30/05]. The Washington Post quoted Mayfield on September 6: "They knew that this one was different. ... I don't think Mike Brown or anyone else in FEMA could have any reason to have any problem with our calls. ... They were told ... We said the levees could be topped."

Let's have it , zman, tell me CNN is wrong:
A September 5 CNN.com article reported that Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff falsely told reporters that "planners" did not predict a breach of the levees that would flood the city. As CNN.com reported,....

They are leftwingnuts at CNN, dispose of it!

Zman, let's go. That statement by Bush, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" is probably the single most stupid sentence ever spoken by a politician.

Don't you agree? I mean, it was all over the news for two days, predicting what would happen if a Cat. 3 or 4 hit, they even said 80% flooding, they said a twenty foot swell would breach. It was all over the news. I almost choked on my Botulin beverage when I read that remark. No one is that stupid, but yes, not only is Bush dumber than dorrknobs, but even a week later, people still try to defend him!!! That is even dumber, don't you think??

There is zero doubt what was predicted, what would happen if it hit, and it did!! Exactly as predicted, one day, two days, one week, one year, three years before it happened, EXACTLY. Everyone on the planet knew, we held our breath and prayed the miracle would occur, that at the last minute the Hurricane would divert enough, just like several times before.

But no, then it still seemed it might be okay, we prayed and hoped no one would die, but it happened, it happened in such a dramatic fashion that the whole world was spellbound, and scared beyond our wits.

Then ....... he said it. The single most immature and criminal evasion of culpability and asinine ignorance ever displayed, and he is supposed to be the leader.

Go ahead, zman. I await your refutation that it never happened.

I would have a hard time not turning my brother in if he commited murder, and could stop him. My brother.

Yet you defend the person you should be able to trust beyond anyone in your nation, the man-boy who spits in your face, his lies are so insulting, he cannot show any more contempt for the people if he tried.

You defend that?

You know, if he came out and said "I am sorry, I am very shaken, and what I said was a mistake, please forgive me and let's unite ourselves in the rescue" I would say "That's fine, I can understand, I respect that honesty and the leadership it shows".

Zman, you are up.

[toocoolforschool]

Don't you people ever get tired of rehashing the same crap over and over? :rolleyes:

[ViciousSummer]

Don't you people ever get tired of rehashing the same crap over and over? :rolleyes:
I was thinking the exact same thing...:rolleyes:

[mikmik]

You better believe it. It is great to get worked up, lose my perspective, then laugh at how seriously I take myself :O)))

[Worldwid]

I saw on the news, a police officer saw a 3 year old girl getting raped in the superdome and could do nothing to stop it. Madness, absolute madness. If I was there I would have done something to that low-life.

[wanboll]

http://www.topplebush.com/humor/proud.jpg

[ZuraX]

I love how all the Bush bashers put this on him. Where was the BLACK mayor? Why did he let all them buses get flooded instead of using them to get people out?

[Blogmaster]

Here is something for everyone who clicks on the thread thinking it is seo related ;) http://seoblackhat.com/

[SEbasic]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to wanboll againDamnit...Here is something for everyone who clicks on the thread thinking it is seo related And just incase they feel like continuing this thread, please see this post :)
http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=314002&postcount=46

[mikmik]

I agree with you to a point, SEbasic, and you know I have the same, or very similar, values to you regarding humanitarian intentions.

I also realize that hardly anyone at all changes their minds in these discussions. However, the problems here, as in my country, and many, many societies, is lack of education, and lack of knowledge of current events. We try to reach people when, as individuals, we feel there is a lack of understanding in areas that are important to everyone.

We also are in a section specifically set aside to talk about non web development and SEO stuff. There are all sorts of topics here, and I do not think it is balanced to say this topic is out of line, while all others that are non webdev and SEO are not.

Mostly though, it is a problem with the attitudes and lack of respect for each other in this thread, not the topic per se. Yes, I am extremely guilty of this type of behavior, and I am embarrassed at my replies in the past (and probably still will be ignorant at times in the future, I don't always have good judgment)

Everyone also has a choice to ignore these threads, what goes on is not an imposition on you or anybody, and I think that is a very important point. No one is forced to look at this or especially, participate.

I am very much against removing choices for people to make when these choices do not impose on anyone's rights.

That said, I do also think there is a time and a place for everything, and I must point out that at my forum, I discourage (now that I've learned some self restraint - well, some!) these types of discussions. I am not saying I disagree with these threads being counterproductive in a place like DP, and that they specifically can lower the standards of conduct to an unreasonable level for Digital Point, just that this is an open category, and I wish to make choices based on ethics, and not have them decided by what I consider are inappropriate reasons.

Again, I think the main problem are lack of reasoning skills, and mostly, plain lack of respect and attempts to understand each other. That is what makes these discussions so distasteful and wrong.

Myself, I am a childish hothead and abusive. I have growing to do, and I am trying to learn to make posts without name calling and insults and presenting my opinion as fact. Yeah, I have a long way to go, but I am just pointing out one little way that I can try to make something positive come of these types of discussions - learn to analyze myself and treat others with more respect, and don't take offense so quickly and easily.

Mostly, I just ignore the threads, when I have a clear head, LOL, realize that how I feel, and what I react to, and how, are my choice. I don't have to be a victim, and I don't have to let anybody get to me, or try to make them behave a certain way. As soon as I get upset at others and react to control them, I give away personal power.

BTW, I only just figured this out for myself, in the last couple of weeks. I am no better than anyone, just different, like we are all individuals. I try to see as that; different but not right or wrong, because although I know they are wrong according to my values, I have no right to suppose that my values are fundamental.

[SEbasic]

I recently gave you rep mik, otherwise I'd do it again...

I hear ya, I'm just amazed at the quantity of these threads now on DP and the way they seem to span completly out of control and end up with people resulting to personal insults and accusations.

Anyway, I've deemed to stay out of these threads now - I learnt that back when AC was still around... ;)

Cheers

Ol

[debunked]

Great post Mik!

[gworld]

There has been a lot of posting that politics or in reality Mr. Bush should not be discussed in DP and some how DP should stop these threads. The usual argument is that he and the subject has got nothing to do with SEO.
This argument is pushed forward by those that who know very well the postings are done in General chat area and most subjects in this section has nothing to do with SEO.
It is very funny that the same people who try to force everyone to silence and support censor, are the same people that support war in Iraq because it is supposedly exporting democracy to that country. :rolleyes:

[palespyder]

It is very funny that the same people who try to force everyone to silence and support censor, are the same people that support war in Iraq because it is supposedly exporting democracy to that country. :rolleyes:

That's quite the generalization man...Jesus do you think before you speak?

Dude I have kept my mouth shut for the most part, but, last I checked your Government was backing ours in that sand, we are not alone there man. How many American's do you see badmouthing your government every chance we get. How many others here are supporting terrorism like you so eloquently do every fricken chance you get. As I said in a previous post, don't like it??? Don't move here, we are much better without ya.

[mikmik]

Thanks, folks! It is a constant battle to know what is right these days, for me anyways. I learn a lot from everyone here, everyone. Even people I disagree with on one specific discussion, I try to remember (it's true whether I remember or not, LOL) that they know a whole heck of a lot of other things I don't.

It is pretty stressful these days with all the heavy stuff we read and see in the news, let alone our own personal lives. I have to remember that this affects all our behaviors, and it is probably a good idea to give veryone extra benefit of the doubt. I just believe that we all wish, in our own way, that everything was better for everyone, that we could all be happy and succesfull.


I feel very welcome here at DP, thanks guys :O))))))))))!!!

[mikmik]

Okay, that's it, I am covering my ears and going "lalalala..."

;O]

[Henny]

Well, let me tell you, all you bushwackers are just cementing the opinions of conservatives. Typically, when you blame a president for a hurricane, or the fact that FEMA was slow to act (no jurisdiction to do so) you just prove to me I made the right choice.

[palespyder]

Nah mikmik you don't have to, it's like when brothers and sisters fight, we argue, but, it's all love. I am not going to waste my time being angry with someone online, I like it here,

I don't argee with senseless bashing of a government that one does not pay taxes to, has no voting rights in, and has absolutely no right to judge. thats all. :) That would be like me badmouthing the British Monarchy....last time I tried just being funny, a girl from Bristol kicked me squarely in the junk, there was a lesson in that ;).

[gworld]

don't like it??? Don't move here, we are much better without ya.

I am sure a lot of dead Iraq's civilian felt the same way too, the only problem was your government insisted on exporting "democracy" and getting them killed. ;)

[zman]

I am sure a lot of dead Iraq's civilian felt the same way too, the only problem was your government insisted on exporting "democracy" and getting them killed.

Actually, the several hundred thousand who were killed by Saddam may disagree with you gworld. Then again, you are used to that. ;)

[gworld]

Actually, the several hundred thousand who were killed by Saddam may disagree with you gworld. Then again, you are used to that. ;)

Can you please show where did you find the several hundred thousand? Are you referring to Iraq-Iran war? I think the biggest massacre that they did was about 5000 Kurds in a village which by itself is unforgivable action but it is much lower the number of people killed during the last few years.
It was brutal and corrupt government but the alternative has not been better for average people and possibly worse.

[seant]

democratization of the region might not be a bad idea-bad reasons for going or not. The fanaticism in the area is a huge economic and security concern. Imperialism is fine by me so long as both sides benefit from the changes.

[zman]

yeah it was 5,000 at one single time. My bad.

It was brutal and corrupt government but the alternative has not been better for average people and possibly worse.

Now in return, can you tell me where you got that idea? 5,000 gassed is worse than what? going to school, starting businesses, voting for a new government.

I'm confused.

[gworld]

yeah it was 5,000 at one single time. My bad.



Now in return, can you tell me where you got that idea? 5,000 gassed is worse than what? going to school, starting businesses, voting for a new government.

I'm confused.

So from 5000 , you reached the conclusion of hundreds of thousands? :confused:

If you think that people getting killed by missiles, bombs, lack of food and security and a government which wants to turn back the clock and send women to home again and enforce religion ruling is progress then I have to agree with you.

[zman]

If you think that people getting killed by missiles, bombs, lack of food and security and a government which wants to turn back the clock and send women to home again and enforce religion ruling is progress then I have to agree with you.


That is past tense. Talk to a person in the military about the CURRENT situation. Much better now, but that wont matter to you.

Just like the fact that I agreed that I made a mistake in my post and claimed it was my bad. Doesnt matter to you. :p

[SEbasic]

And here I was thinking we had rescued this thread ;)

[zman]

And here I was thinking we had rescued this thread

You just made me realize how far off topic we are. :eek:

Sorry bout' that.

[Blogmaster]

LOL sometimes you just have to look at the title of the thread in your browser to recall what it was again ;)

[SEbasic]

DP has a habit of doing that it seems.

[mikmik]

:confused: Let's keep all the bravado for when Iraq has a stable, uncorrupt democracy. Untill then, it is all a fantasy.

You cannot force anyone to be anything, let alone a 5000 year old civilisation. What gets me is that people think Iraq views the US as saviors. Sure, just as the US people would view an invading army that tried tro impose a socialist government.. And believe me, there are a lot of examples of socialist demacracies that work better than the US at the moment.

The point is, though, that you cannot force people to be a certain way. They have to decide for themselves.. You can talk all you want about what the US invaasion means to US people, but the fact is that Iraq is more unstable than ever in history, and the whole middle east is a powder keg that is more unstable than ever in history.

This is much more than about Suddam, this was a war based on a lie, and it is a war without a plan, and it is a mess that needs to be handled with more astuteness than Neocon has shown.

Two times now, two. The US has been told to leave. The Iraq Gov't is aligning with Iran, and fumdamentalist Islam. That has already happenned, Iraqi's are waging war on Iraqi's, and overlords and Clerics are ruling their own militias.

It is obvious that everything is not going according to plan. My god, Bush declared the end of hostilities in 2003, 2 and a half years ago! More money goes for policiing than it does rebuilding. More people are without power and water than before the invasion.

Over 60% of Americans think the war was a mistake. Over 80% of the rest of the world does.

What does it take to convince people that things are not right in Iraq? What more could you possibly want to see wrong to understand that this is not the situation anyone wanted, in fact is the very situation that was feared as a worst case scenario?

Please, tell me this.

[zman]

Well I would comment on that post but I think it belongs in another thread. This thread was started about New Orleans and whether or not it is race related. :rolleyes:

[MELLA]

I think Bush is a big bastard titwanky arsewipe, but I dont think this had anything to do with race.

[minstrel]

"titwanky arsewipe"?

That seems a bit harsh... :eek:

Love,

Squishy

[Crazy_Rob]

I think Bush is a big bastard titwanky arsewipe, but I dont think this had anything to do with race.

Wow! MELLA brought this thread back ON-TOPIC!

Petty politics aside... :p

I really don't think these people would have been left like this for four days had they been white.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050910/capt.wx10409102235.katrina_calculating_costs_wx104.jpg?x=380&y=263&sig=7ormjUBNezu54UBVPLOE4g--
Out of food...

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/afp/20050904/capt.sge.emp30.040905002022.photo03.photo.default-269x384.jpg?x=241&y=345&sig=tXGrTMtvQLbf8XLv1b5UNg--
Out of water...

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20050901/capt.laeg10509011725.hurricane_katrina_laeg105.jpg?x=232&y=345&sig=SFEDVNRliszuDb.Aoz.0.A--
Dead.

[minstrel]

Smack him, Mellie!

[mikmik]

yA, AND WHEN'S THE LAST TIME A WHITE GUY WON THE 100 M?

Sorry, that was a caplock mistake. But I digress. Roger Bannister broke the 4 minute mile, and still Wayne Gretzky has yet to comment on that. This is surely a sign that pre-pubescent females domination in the un-even bars is more than a hindsight.

Brought to you by 'The Commitee For Obfiscasion'.

female's, I meant, in a muddy sort of way.

One question, if I may. Where, exactly speaking, is the cut-off between, let's say, a tree and a bush? Is it a matter of height? Or, number of trunks?

If so, wood that be an elephant?

Crazy Rob, I have a few images: http://mikx2.com/assetts/pics/link/flood.jpg

here is a close up (http://mikx2.com/assetts/pics/link/dead.jpg)

I really don't think these people would have been left like this for four days had they been white.
Mayhaps, but I doubt they would be left for days with a sentient being in charge of things, :O)