Thoughts on Cindy Sheehan (anti-Bush lady)

[zman]

Hi all,

As some of you may know, Im quite Independent on my political view. I want everyone to pulll a fair share of the cost of running this country, I want to see us succeed in the war, I want the government to stay out of my house, etc.

That being said, I really think it is insulting to see Cindy Sheehan demand that Bush meet with here A SECOND TIME. Keep in mind that the first time she met with him she spoke very highly of him. Now that Moveon DOT org and Moore have gotten involved, she suddenly thinks Bush is a terrorist.

I see this as a big media ploy and I think Sheehan is simply a pawn for left wing orgs looking to further an agenda.

Just sharing my opinion here.

What do all of you think?

[ehsen]

I believe she is right "Bush is terrorist". USA killed thousands of innocent people in Iraq. When US kill people its "war against terrorism" but when someone other kill us citizens its "terrorism". To me its really difficult to identify who is actually terrorist.

[zman]

To me its really difficult to identify who is actually terrorist

How is that?

Terrorist will saw the heads off of people who are in Iraq to provide food, water, school, etc.

Coalition forces are there to protect citezens and unfortunatly innocent people may end up in the line of fire because of the terrorists lack of ability to show respect for the innocent.

Pretty simple if you ask me.

[GuyFromChicago]

My bro threw in his 2 cents (http://willful-ignorance.com/2005/08/read-this-blog-or-terrorists-win.html) on this issue in his blog awhile back. I tend to share his point of view on most issues...

[zman]

When US kill people its "war against terrorism" but when someone other kill us citizens its "terrorism".

You didnt type that right. It should read:

"When US kill terrorist its war against terrorism but when someone kills innocent people from anywhere in the world its terrorism"

:)


Guy, great entry and thanks for the link.

[mcfox]

I think the lady is very sad.

[gworld]

My bro threw in his 2 cents (http://willful-ignorance.com/2005/08/read-this-blog-or-terrorists-win.html) on this issue in his blog awhile back. I tend to share his point of view on most issues...

Your brother calls Cindy Sheehan the "Useful Idiot" but if you remove the "useful" from the phrase it perfectly describes your brother.

[GuyFromChicago]

Guy, great entry and thanks for the link.

Once my brother gets going on politics he's hard to stop:) Someone go debate him...I dare you;)

[Crazy_Rob]

The media has made this a big deal...and it shouldn't be!

[GuyFromChicago]

Your brother calls Cindy Sheehan the "Useful Idiot" but if you remove the "useful" from the phrase it perfectly describes your brother.

lol, step up to the plate and debate it with him. You'll have to provide some more factual data to back up your commments or he'll make you look silly...

[yfs1]

I feel like she is doing what she *thinks* is right. May none of us ever lose a son or daughter, in war or otherwise. My heart goes out to her and her family (even though they don't see eye to eye)

However......I think its horrible how people like Michael Moore have exploited here to further their cause. Thank God the US is a country where people are allowed to protest. If it was Iraq she would have lost her head.

I don't agree with her but its her right to be there. If only the other 99 people would stop trying to exploit her.

[zman]

Your brother calls Cindy Sheehan the "Useful Idiot" but if you remove the "useful" from the phrase it perfectly describes your brother.

Besides your quick jump to insults, any comment on the original topic?

[ehsen]

I like USA, should i say i love it. However i can't deny the fact that US killed more than 8 million people during last century.

[GuyFromChicago]

I like USA, should i say i love it. However i can't deny the fact that US killed more than 8 million people during last century.

Don't forget to add the fact that they liberated 10 times that:)

[zman]

I don't agree with her but its her right to be there. If only the other 99 people would stop trying to exploit her.

Nicely said.

Don't forget to add the fact that they liberated 10 times that

I dont think it is an issue of forget, rather, it is an issue of ignore.

[gworld]

lol, step up to the plate and debate it with him. You'll have to provide some more factual data to back up your commments or he'll make you look silly...


I am already debating with couple of others like him in the other thread, one more or less doesn't make any difference, ask him to join in. ;)


Besides your quick jump to insults, any comment on the original topic?


It is interesting that everybody is blaming her and others by saying that she is using her son death for political motives, at least her loss is real and she has lost her son while the government is still manipulating the people by taking advantage of the dead in 9/11 without anyone blaming them for that.
How many of those who are so excited to revenge the 9/11 have actually lost some one there?

Instead of concentrating on methods listen to what both side wants. In one side we have one person that is fighting for peace and stop to killing while enduring many personal losses and on the other side we have people who would like the war and killing to continue while getting rich of the war. I suppose you take side on issue depending on your principals, knowledge and sense of morality.

[zman]

blaming her and others by saying that she is using her son death for political motives

That isnt the case at all. I think most here have said that OTHERS are using her and her son for political motives.

[gworld]

That isnt the case at all. I think most here have said that OTHERS are using her and her son for political motives.

Even so, why others are not permitted to use her son's death politically to fight for peace and putting stop to killing, while the neo-cons are permitted to use the dead in 9/11 politically to make a case for war and hatred while getting rich of the war?

[zman]

Even so, why others are not permitted to use her son's death politically to fight for peace and putting stop to killing, while the neo-cons are permitted to use the dead in 9/11 politically to make a case for war and hatred while getting rich of the war?

I dont care who you are, you shouldnt use someones death to promote a political agenda.

[someonewhois]

I dont care who you are, you shouldnt use someones death to promote a political agenda.
For sure.

Cindy Sheehan is a disgrace. Her son died fighting for his country, and she wants her son honoured by pulling out of Iraq? That's disgusting.

Pulling out of Iraq right now would cause thousands of Iraqi deaths. While I don't think the war was needed to begin with (me and many others, I know), pulling out now isn't practical at all.

[zman]

Pulling out of Iraq right now would cause thousands of Iraqi deaths. While I don't think the war was needed to begin with (me and many others, I know), pulling out now isn't practical at all.

That is a very honest statement without bias. I very much respect that. :)

[GTech]

Oddly enough, I agree with Cindy when she said:


I now know he’s sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis,” Cindy said after their meeting. “I know he’s sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he’s a man of faith.


What's all the fuss? :D

[zman]

Oddly enough, I agree with Cindy when she said:


Quote:
I now know he’s sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis,” Cindy said after their meeting. “I know he’s sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he’s a man of faith.



What's all the fuss?

Exactly!

But now Moveon and the Moore camp have jumped on board and the message did a complete 180.

[gworld]

I dont care who you are, you shouldnt use someones death to promote a political agenda.

I don't think it makes any difference for the dead guy, that is one of the few positive things about being dead that you don't need to think about these things any more.

Unfortunately when you die under such circumstances, it is always used by different political groups. On one side we have his mother who wants to put stop to killing and war and on the other side we have the government and Mr. Bush that say that they have to continue with war and killing because they don't want his death to be useless.

The question in the end is simple, should we stop the further death and war so more people like him don't get killed or should we use his death as the reason to continue the war and for more killing and death on both sides?

[TommyD]

I believe she is right

What? Now what she is saying, or what she was saying 6 months ago, or a year ago, or 6 months from now?

:confused:

[GuyFromChicago]

The question in the end is simple, should we stop the further death and war so more people like him don't get killed or should we use his death as the reason to continue the war and for more killing and death on both sides?

You do understand that is the US pulled out of Iraq right now more people will die than if we stay...right?

[zman]

Unfortunately when you die under such circumstances, it is always used by different political groups.

So just to simplify this for all the viewers, you think it is ok to use the death of a soldier for political gain?

[gworld]

So just to simplify this for all the viewers, you think it is ok to use the death of a soldier for political gain?

It doesn't matter what my opinion about this subject is, the reality is that both side use it. Everything is politics in the end, even people who want that every one should be quite about his death, are serving the political agenda of those who like to see the war continue and try hard people don't see the real human cost and suffering.

[GTech]

You do understand that is the US pulled out of Iraq right now more people will die than if we stay...right?

In my ongoing debates with gworld, that seems to be what he hopes for the most. He seems to have no regard that terrorists are the ones killing Iraqis daily and that we are there to help them.

One might get the impression that gworld supports the terrorists killing Iraqis by calling for the US to pull out and stop efforts to protect and help them. Why anyone would want terrorists in Iraq to win is beyond me, but it exemplifies a sad discourse towards a people who do not deserve killing by terrorists.

[zman]

It doesn't matter what my opinion about this subject is, the reality is that both side use it.

I dont care about the "sides". Im an independent and I answer only for myself.

So for the record, you arent going to answer this question.

Is it ok to use the death of a soldier for political gain? My answer is no and it takes me only the amount of time to type this to come to that conclusion.

You on the other hand dance around in your posts suggesting that you are refusing to say no and that leaves us to assume one thing.

Do you care to prove otherwise?

[gworld]

I dont care about the "sides". Im an independent and I answer only for myself.

So for the record, you arent going to answer this question.

Is it ok to use the death of a soldier for political gain? My answer is no and it takes me only the amount of time to type this to come to that conclusion.

You on the other hand dance around in your posts suggesting that you are refusing to say no and that leaves us to assume one thing.

Do you care to prove otherwise?

More relevant and important question is who has the right to decide over his memory and how it is going to be used, you that have no relationship with him and didn't know him or his mother that has given birth to him, raised him and still mourns his death?

[zman]

Ok, Im glad we have it established that you refuse to answer a simple question and we can now assume that you feel it is ok to use the death of a soldier to further a political agenda.

:rolleyes:

[mizt]

Anyone see the video clip of Cindy last night on the O'reilly factor. She called the bush out as a terrorist but went one to say stuff about how the United States is wrong in supporting Israel and how the United States is a hypocrite for not allowing Lebanon to occupy Syria. What those issues have to do with her sons death I have no idea, Bush has met with her once and it would be crazy for him to do it again. Cindy is now a pawn in the far lefts game and she loves every minute of it. Blogging on Michael Moore's website, come on now, I'd give her much more respect if she protested in a responsibly way. I'm tired of people like her, Michael Moore and the moveon campaign exploiting everything they can find for political gain and abusing there freedom of speech which they so happen to have because of our great troops. Are the democrats (and others) terrorist for not securing our borders, where are the mom's at protesting this issue when there son was killed by someone who had entered this country illegally?

[zman]

Anyone see the video clip of Cindy last night on the O'reilly factor. She called the bush out as a terrorist but went one to say stuff about how the United States is wrong in supporting Israel and how the United States is a hypocrite for not allowing Lebanon to occupy Syria. What those issues have to do with her sons death I have no idea, Bush has met with her once and it would be crazy for him to do it again. Cindy is now a pawn in the far lefts game and she loves every minute of it. Blogging on Michael Moore's website, come on now, I'd give her much more respect if she protested in a responsibly way. I'm tired of people like her, Michael Moore and the moveon campaign exploiting everything they can find for political gain and abusing there freedom of speech which they so happen to have because of our great troops. Are the democrats (and others) terrorist for not securing our borders, where are the mom's at protesting this issue when there son was killed by someone who had entered this country illegally?


Great post.

She also says that "America is not worth dying for" and it was discovered today that she is trying to use the name of a mom organization to build on the brand and now the org is pissed. Im not sure what org it was so I'll have to dig a bit. I'll get back on that one.

[Henny]

She's a publicity WHORE! She will stop pissing on her son's grave when the camera's fade away..... Makes me sick, her son and his brothers in arms will always be hero's and she cannot take that away...

[TommyD]

She's a publicity WHORE! She will stop pissing on her son's grave when the camera's fade away..... Makes me sick, her son and his brothers in arms will always be hero's and she cannot take that away...

Not saying you are wrong, but she's attacked the media saying they made her look like a clown, since many aired how's she's flipped/flopped on her position many many times.

Her children now call her names, and her husband has filed for divorce. I kinda feel sad for her. Since she radically changed her position, I suspect she is in the back pocket of someone. Hope the money was worth it.

:(

[zman]

Her children now call her names, and her husband has filed for divorce. I kinda feel sad for her. Since she radically changed her position, I suspect she is in the back pocket of someone. Hope the money was worth it.


Curious. How can you say "I kinda feel sad for her" and "Hope the money was worth it" in the same paragraph?

Kinda strange no?

[TommyD]

Kinda strange no?

No. :confused:

[zman]

Ok so person accepts the position of "pawn" for left wing political groups. Insults America and everything it stands for, probably gets funding and support in many other ways and you feel sorry for her?

You reap what you sow.

[TommyD]

You reap what you sow.

Yes.

Also, when people are emotionally charged, or taken advantage of and make decisions that has long term negative fallout, I feel sorry for them.

So...?

tom

[zman]

Ok , whatever floats your boat.

I feel sorry for anyone who loses a son or daughter in war or anywhere else for that matter. With that being said I do not feel sorry for a person who asks for it and then doesnt like it when it comes.

[gworld]

It is so stupid that you people blame her for changing her mind. Do you still believe that the world is flat or sun rotates around the earth? After all that was the popular belief at some time.
I don't how much she has learned or knows during this time but the ability to progress, adopt and discard illogical beliefs is a sign of intelligence but on the other hand the people who blame her never think or try to learn, so they don't need to change their mind about anything.

[zman]

It is so stupid that you people blame her for changing her mind.

I dont blame her, I blame Haliburton and Bush. They cause everything. :p

[gworld]

I dont blame her, I blame Haliburton and Bush. They cause everything. :p

You can't blame them for making money, that is the American way. War, death and killing is the unfortunate side effect of their business enterprise.

[zman]

You can't blame them for making money, that is the American way. War, death and killing is the unfortunate side effect of their business enterprise.

Sure thing. :rolleyes:

[toocoolforschool]

Okay, I've been convinced by Zman in PM to ask this, but:

I think we can all tell just by looking at Sheehan that she's a diehard Hippie, right? The uncomb hair, no makeup, tattoos all around her ankle, etc. She's an aging hippie, because this is how all female aging hippies look like. We all know she was smoking pot during Woodstock (or wish she was there) and doing her best "flower power" impersonations during the '60s and '70s, and probably protesting Reagan in the '80s, right?

So how does the son of a diehard hippie grow up to join the Army????

I'm not saying anything about Sheehan being right or wrong, etc, I just can't figure out that last part. I know some kids grow up to rebel against their parents, so do you think that's what happened?

Very curious about this.

[Design Agent]

1 point:

Millions were convinced the war was right based on UK documents STOLEN from a 10 year old thesis. AS she and her son probably were. Since then HER son has died and she has discovered that the war was WRONG.

She has changed her mind and being a media WHORE as you put it is the only way to get attention and try to STOP anymore dying. Leaving Iraq is no longer an option.

Do you guys not see the ONLY people saying the war was OK are from the US?????
Do you think the rest of the world wants you to be wrong ? I dont care if she wears a bright pink wet tshirt to make a point.... isnt a flying cokehead landing on a battleship media whoring??? These days it IS the way the world works, Im sure every other antiwar mother whose son is dead that is quietly saying "its wrong" is getting well respected but getting NO attention.

Yes she is using her son, she HAS to..and if it saves someone elses son then its a good thing. Too many people here are talking about war like its a video game or TV show.. Have you ever heard a bullet fly over your heads ? Have you ever seen someone die att the hands of another ?


So, Zman you feel no sympathy for someone that died even though they knew they might??? Obviously you have no comprehension of someone dying, because if you did then you would feel sympathy REGARDLESS of what their ideology was in the first place.

Most soldiers are 17ish when they sign up... so Kids cant make mistakes huh??

So what if she was a 'hippy' I have never seen anyone smoke weed and go shoot someone, or cause a fight..

[gworld]

So how does the son of a diehard hippie grow up to join the Army????



I don't know about this specific case but here is the why for others according to military stats:

"Factors Influencing Propensity

Regardless of their propensity for military service, YATS respondents are asked to provide, in their own words, reasons for joining and not joining the military. The most frequently mentioned reasons for joining are money for college, job training and/or experience, duty to country, pay, travel, and self-discipline.

Most young men and women see postsecondary education as the key to prosperity and job security. The percent of youth going to college is increasing, and YATS results show that young people are aware that the military offers money for a college education. Educational funding is the most frequently cited reason for enlisting, and the percent of youth mentioning education funding is growing.
............................

For many noncollege youth, military service offers an opportunity for job experience and specialized training.

CONCLUSION

Both men’s and women’s propensity remain substantially below pre-drawdown levels and, if past experience is a guide, below the levels needed to meet increased accession requirements while maintaining the high quality required for today’s military. These findings underscore the need for college funds to attract an important segment of college-bound youth (those needing money). Many other youth, however, are attracted by the prospects of job training and experience, and by the discipline universally viewed as intrinsic to military service. To meet recruiting goals, DoD must address the needs of all market segments."

http://www.defenselink.mil/execsec/adr98/apdx_g.html

[zman]

So, Zman you feel no sympathy for someone that died even though they knew they might??? Obviously you have no comprehension of someone dying, because if you did then you would feel sympathy REGARDLESS of what their ideology was in the first place.

DA, putting words in my mouth is my job. I never said I feel no sympathy for the person that died. Go back and read my post, Im too lazy to be repeating myself tonight. I said I have no sympathy for someone who sold her soul to the left wing orgs and then isnt happy that people pointed it out.

My sister is in Bagdad with the Air Force and I would have a hell of a hard time grasping reality for quite a while if she was taken in a fight, but I sure as f**k wouldnt say "Bush is a very compassionate man" and then a year later at the request of the left wing of this country "change my mind".

I have no sympathy for Sheenan. She sold out to those who have a political agenda. She is allowing them to use her sons death to further what they want.

Simple really.

Yes she is using her son, she HAS to

She isnt using her son, the left wingers are. They have just offered her a first class seat for the ride.

[Crazy_Rob]

I have no sympathy for Sheenan.


That's a pretty awful thing to say. Who told you to feel that way?

[zman]

Why aweful?

Do you think it is aweful that she says America is not worth dying for when her son signed up willing to die for it?

I always wonder what he would think if he could look up and see what is happening.

Personally, I would find it insulting. I wouldnt be able to find the words.

As I said, I have sympathy for her son, it sucks. I HAD sympathy for her until this happened.

[Design Agent]

"With that being said I do not feel sorry for a person who asks for it and then doesnt like it when it comes." - kinda says I ate a meal that I knew was off, so I cant complain about my stomach ache the way I read it.

left wingers?? that makes you right wing I guess.. birds and planes have wings to me.
To me there is actually no such thing.... its a big long line from left to right and everywhere inbetween. people become 'left wing' to counter balance the 'right wing' and vice versa. Go have a look at Bill Gates campaign contributions and you will see NO left or right. Just a corporate funded govt. I am of the belief whoever gets in power HAS to do exactly the same, so take a bush or clinton, a blair or a howard it makes no difference anymore..

Iraq had WHAT to do with binladen? Iraq had WHAT to do with ALmadeuporganisationthatcancoveranyonethatdisagrees?

Ok so based on the example of your sis: right now you believe the war is justified - but maybe in the future you wont. Opinions can change. Tomorrow bush could save my life and I will love him forever...


I dont think she is 'allowing her sons death to be used' to me its a case of "my son is dead, he will NOT die in vain. What 'they' want is less war


Twin towers = political agenda
Iran = political agenda
China = political agenda
Korea = political agenda
Axis of evil = political agenda

Its just the 'left wingers'. IMO the trouble is the 'left wingers' are much weaker and wont fight back like the 'right wingers' the 'left wingers' have a "Cindy" whereas the right wingers have almost everything else.

When the mexicans and blacks in the US realise their votes are being stolen then the political situation in the US will erupt.

[gworld]

I always wonder what he would think if he could look up and see what is happening.

Personally, I would find it insulting. I wouldnt be able to find the words.

As I said, I have sympathy for her son, it sucks. I HAD sympathy for her until this happened.

zman

You are such a passionate and smart man, are you sure that it sucks to be dead? :rolleyes:

What happens if he looks up from the grave and agree that it sucks that he is dead for nothing, are you going to take back your sympathy?

[Crazy_Rob]

As I said, I have sympathy for her son, it sucks. I HAD sympathy for her until this happened.


No offense man, but I think you clearly need to re-evaluate you views and values.

You seem a little too wrapped up in being a "right wing" conservative. So much so that you have no sympathy for a woman who lost her son. And just because she doesn't agree with your views.

That's pretty sad- IMO.

[zman]

left wingers?? that makes you right wing I guess.. birds and planes have wings to me.

Nope, not at all. Read the article (http://rgj.com/news/stories/html/2005/06/17/102100.php?sps=rgj.com&sch=Umbrella&sp1=rgj&sp2=umbrella&sp3=umbrella&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=umbrella&jsmultitag=umbrella.rgj.com) about me found on the front page of the Reno Gazette Journal not to long ago. Ive been arguing with both Republicans and Democrats. I really cant stand either. Im an Independent and will be backing an Independent running for Gov here in Nevada Next year. No right wing for me. ;)

You are such a passionate and smart man, are you sure that it sucks to be dead?

G, seriously bro, that is a sad attempt at a "gotcha".

It sucks that he died. A is for apple... :rolleyes:

[zman]

No offense man, but I think you clearly need to re-evaluate you views and values.

That is your opinion. Your entitled to it just as I am mine. :)

You seem a little too wrapped up in being a "right wing" conservative. So much so that you have no sympathy for a woman who lost her son. And just because she doesn't agree with your views.

Huh? Why is it that anytime I disagree with an anti war person or someone who backs an anti war person the labels come out.

Look dude, I curse like a sailor, drink like a fish and support pot being legal. Im not sure where you get right wing out of that but whatever turns your crank.

[Crazy_Rob]

Fair enough, zman. Insert "left-wing basher" (or whatever you like) in place of "right-wing".

[zman]

Fair enough, zman. Insert "left-wing basher" (or whatever you like) in place of "right-wing conservative".

LOL. Now that was funny! :D

I bash both sides plenty bro. ;)

EDIT: I even tried to give you green rep for that, It cracked me up man.

[Design Agent]

conservative independent huh? or is it independent conservative huh?

protest warriors ?? hold your own rallies, dont gatecrash others - that sounds like trouble to me..

So you like the principles, just not the way its run... I dont find that independent personally.

No offence, I dont know the ins and outs of your politics..

Any chance you feel like responding to anything I actually had to say ? ;)

[zman]

independent conservative

Yes. That is exactly what I am. I'll lay out the reasons.

I am Independent because
A) I should be responsible for my own life.

I am Conservative because
A) The country was working fine back in the day
B) I think the constitution was created for a purpose and we should hold to it
C) I am an unabashed capitalist

protest warriors ?? hold your own rallies, dont gatecrash others - that sounds like trouble to me..

Actually trouble is when I have to stop in the middle of an intersection to watch people spit on a flag and shout out against America. They have that right, I also have the right to counter them. It's called freedom, it cant work for just one side.

No offence, I dont know the ins and outs of your politics..

Bro I get death threats, dont worry about offending me. ;)

Any chance you feel like responding to anything I actually had to say ?

Its possible, but I usually dont respond to posts that seem to point my posts out as somehow invalid due to a disagreement. Gworld is one of the few because his are quite entertaining.

[zman]

kinda says I ate a meal that I knew was off, so I cant complain about my stomach ache the way I read it.

Thats about right- yes. Well, you can complain, but others can also say well you shouldnt have...

[Design Agent]

I am Conservative because
A) The country was working fine back in the day
B) I think the constitution was created for a purpose and we should hold to it
C) I am an unabashed capitalist


A) back in the day when ??? Martin Luther King's day ? The cotton trading days ? Emancipation proclamation ? When the original inhabitants owned and lived on the land (before us europeans stole it away) ? when madonna was number 1 for like a virgin ? when you kicked the english out? when the axis of evil was discovered? maybe vietnams days ? im looking for that time when the country was 'fine' - depends who you were born to huh?

B) The constitution was created to stop those in power abusing their powers fundementally. It has and needs to change. The UK has never had a written constitution. There is still less murder, ore freedom of speech (until recently - and why because everyone screams terrorist)

C) Your choice, I guess Im an abashed capitalist - I dont believe the world is ours to destroy as we do, but Im not going to wear vegan socks either.


Actually trouble is when I have to stop in the middle of an intersection to watch people spit on a flag and shout out against America. They have that right, I also have the right to counter them. It's called freedom, it cant work for just one side.

Yeah, you do have the right to counter them, but I am SURE if they came to your rallies and protested you'd have a fit. - You are insighting trouble. Ps its a FLAG (infact they bought the flag, thereby funding the flag manufacturers, making patriots more money), when they spit on you, knock em out. To me a flag and a country are NOT the same thing at all.


Bro I get death threats, dont worry about offending me. ;)

It was a figure of speech.. Brittney probably gets death threats - whats your point ? "look at me Im standing up for what I believe in"


Its possible, but I usually dont respond to posts that seem to point my posts out as somehow invalid due to a disagreement. Gworld is one of the few because his are quite entertaining.

Yours (as are mine) are opinions. That sounds like the answer give by someone who doesnt actually want to confront an issue. btw your opinions *can* be 'invalid' (see A above) - most people I know call this kind of thing a 'debate' - if you want to just pick out 1 liners to respond to then as a politician you should know that people see straight through soundbites ;)

[Design Agent]

Thats about right- yes. Well, you can complain, but others can also say well you shouldnt have...

They may say I shouldnt have, but they will be sympathetic.

You have no sympathy if I crash a car and die, because I chose to drive it??

another *invalid* im afraid


excuse the double post ;)

[zman]

Wow, thats a heavy post. I disagree with all of it. :p

as a politician you should know that people see straight through soundbites

I'm no politician, Ive got too many tattoos and an ugly face. I'll stick with being an activist, its more fun.

[toocoolforschool]

I ran across this movie about Iraq called "The Voices of Iraq" -- a documentary where the filmmakers handed out cameras to Iraqis, and then assembled a film out of what they had to say/shoot. It's very revealing, and I think it's a shame not a lot of people has seen it, much less even heard of it.

Look at it this way -- we ALL have opinions on Iraq, but are ANY of us Iraqis? Well, these people are. They're living there right now, and this is what they have to say. Don't take it from Michael Moore or George W. Bush or Cindy Sheehan. TAke it from the IRaqis.

Here's a review I found of it: http://www.themovieblog.com/archives/2005/08/richard_reviews_voices_of_iraq.html#more

You can find out more about the film at it's official site here: http://www.voicesofiraq.com

[zman]

Interesting. I havent heard about this flick yet. I may just pick up a copy.

Oh by the way, your link is a bit off there.

http://www.voicesofiraq.com

That one should work.

[Design Agent]

Wow, thats a heavy post. I disagree with all of it. :p

I'm no politician, Ive got too many tattoos and an ugly face. I'll stick with being an activist, its more fun.
You sound like a politician - you just think 'activist' sounds cooler :p

Answer 1 question:

WHEN was it better back in the day ?

[zman]

You sound like a politician - you just think 'activist' sounds cooler

You may have a good point there but Im not sure Im willing to accept it just yet. :D

WHEN was it better back in the day ?

When I say better I am speaking of WAY back. When those men first sat down and decided they didnt want to pay too much in taxes, they didnt want to be told they were less than what they were. This was long before my time.

Sure times have changed, that is why we have amendments. ;)

[Design Agent]

You may have a good point there but Im not sure Im willing to accept it just yet. :D


Only because your spirit will die if you believe you are a politician :p


When I say better I am speaking of WAY back. When those men first sat down and decided they didnt want to pay too much in taxes, they didnt want to be told they were less than what they were. This was long before my time.


What ??

Mexicans, native americans, afro americans, chinese, Irish - It was NOT better for them..

It sounds like you care about how it was for 'white' americans generally.. is that it?

[toocoolforschool]

gworld,

Thanks for the stats, but you're wrong. Casey didn't join the Army to get money to go to college. HEre's an article in the AP about him after he died:

"Sheehan was killed Sunday in a fire-fight outside Baghdad. Sheehan’s family members said his sergeant told them he and another soldier, Cpl. Forest J. Jostes, volunteered to be part of a quick response team when rioting started in Baghdad.

“He didn’t have to go,” said Sheehan’s 23-year-old sister, Carly. “He would do anything for anybody. He’d give you the shirt off his back. He was just a loving and caring person.”

Carly Sheehan said her brother was active in his Catholic church, spending 10 years as an altar server and serving in the youth ministry.

“That’s all he wanted to do was serve God and his country his whole life,” Carly Sheehan said. “He was a boy scout from age 6 or 7 and an Eagle Scout. It was kind of a natural progression to go into the military from that. He said he was enjoying the military because it was just like the boy scouts but they got guns.”

You can read the full link here: http://www.militarycity.com/valor/257123.html

[zman]

Only because your spirit will die if you believe you are a politician

Only because I am more interested in building my student travel sites and starting my floating hostel business in Europe. Capitalism is my long term goal, not politics.

It sounds like you care about how it was for 'white' americans generally.. is that it?

Not the race card. :rolleyes:

Seriously, the race card gets old. This has nothing to do with race and to bring that in is sad and desperate.

I was born in 1979, I had absolutly nothing to do with what happened in those times. I cant go back and change it so I strive to make the best of what I have today.

Since you are trying to derail the thread and move on to desperate tactics let's try and get back on topic shall we?

Cindy Sheehan, I disagree with her tactics. You on the other hand feel that that her being there letting the left wing groups use her sons death to promote a political agenda is ok.

I think her son did what he wanted to do, he faught for America and felt it was worth dying for. His mother felt the same way before Moore and Moveon came along.

Now her husband has filed for divorse, her mother is suffering from a stroke, and she is more miserable than she was a year ago.

I have shared my opinion and you have shared yours. Would you like to expand on that opinion or can you find it in yourself to agree to disagree? ;)

[debunked]

It is so stupid that you people blame her for changing her mind. Do you still believe that the world is flat or sun rotates around the earth? After all that was the popular belief at some time.
I don't how much she has learned or knows during this time but the ability to progress, adopt and discard illogical beliefs is a sign of intelligence but on the other hand the people who blame her never think or try to learn, so they don't need to change their mind about anything.

Sorry guys for pulling the old post up - but I was laughing about this one.

Flat world?? We are on a turtles back for pete's sake, didn't you know. (flat world is what them scientist who didn't listen to mohamad think)
:eek:

[zman]

Sorry guys for pulling the old post up - but I was laughing about this one.

lol, I got a kick out of that one as well.

(Little off topic debunked, but did you ever hear back from that guy about the forum posts? I never got a reply.)

[gworld]

gworld,

Thanks for the stats, but you're wrong. Casey didn't join the Army to get money to go to college.

The first line of my posting was that I don't know about his case but to answer why most people do it. If his death can be used to stop the death of other poor youngster who just joined so they can get out of the poverty and instead getting killed for commercial interest of few then may be his death will serve a purpose as he wished for.

[zman]

The first line of my posting was that I don't know about his case but to answer why most people do it. If his death can be used to stop the death of other poor youngster who just joined so they can get out of the poverty and instead getting killed for commercial interest of few then may be his death will serve a purpose as he wished for.

To assume that is silly.

I scored high on the asvab and was ready to go into the AF as air traffic control only to find upon arrival at meps in Sacramento that I had a physical problem that would keep me out of the military.

I wasnt poor, I owned a window cleaning business at only 19 and would have given it up for my country.

My sister joined and went gladly, my little brother went through a hell of a basic in the winter in Chicago to join the Navy and he wasnt poor or desperate for anything.

G, dont try and make up shit to pretend everything conforms to your opinion.

[gworld]

To assume that is silly.

I scored high on the asvab and was ready to go into the AF as air traffic control only to find upon arrival at meps in Sacramento that I had a physical problem that would keep me out of the military.

I wasnt poor, I owned a window cleaning business at only 19 and would have given it up for my country.

My sister joined and went gladly, my little brother went through a hell of a basic in the winter in Chicago to join the Navy and he wasnt poor or desperate for anything.

G, dont try and make up shit to pretend everything conforms to your opinion.

I haven't assumed anything, look at the link, it is army's own material.

[zman]

I haven't assumed anything, look at the link, it is army's own material.

So you are going to insult the guy by saying he didnt go in for America? He didnt go in to protect freedom?

Why do you think the re-enlistment levels are at record highs? Why do you think people join the military knowing they very well could die for thier country? Im curious.

[isaiasd2003]

Man! I so wish I could put my adsense ad on my signature stuff or whatever. I'm guessing the big G. would call it spamming :(, but can't blame a dude for dreaming :D . Speaking of that, I'm getting sleepy zzzz

[zman]

Man! I so wish I could put my adsense ad on my signature stuff or whatever. I'm guessing the big G. would call it spamming , but can't blame a dude for dreaming . Speaking of that, I'm getting sleepy zzzz

Huh? :confused:

[eiso]

I feel you should not discuss politics in a forum, always ends up in fights or making enemies.

[zman]

I feel you should not discuss politics in a forum, always ends up in fights or making enemies.

I disagree. DA and I have argued here, but we both have talked via PM or rep. You can debate and still be an adult you know.

You say fight, I say debate. As long as it is left at debate it is fine.

[gworld]

So you are going to insult the guy by saying he didnt go in for America? He didnt go in to protect freedom?

Why do you think the re-enlistment levels are at record highs? Why do you think people join the military knowing they very well could die for thier country? Im curious.

What part of my posting don't you understand?

IT IS ARMY'S OWN RESEARCH AND WEB SITE.

IF YOU THINK ARMY INSULTS THE SOLDIERS BY TAKING THE TEST OR PUBLISHING THE RESULT,

that's your problem.

[zman]

The first line of my posting was that I don't know about his case but to answer why most people do it. If his death can be used to stop the death of other poor youngster who just joined so they can get out of the poverty and instead getting killed for commercial interest of few then may be his death will serve a purpose as he wished for.

that is the only thing I saw in your post. Did I miss something? If I did I'll eat my words and wear the dunce hat for a few minutes. ;)

[Joe Blow]

So you are going to insult the guy by saying he didnt go in for America? He didnt go in to protect freedom?

Who's freedom was he protecting?

Man, seriously, you sound like Fox News.

[zman]

Man, seriously, you sound like Fox News.

lol, funny stuff. Maybe I should start watching Fox news then. ;)

[gworld]

that is the only thing I saw in your post. Did I miss something? If I did I'll eat my words and wear the dunce hat for a few minutes. ;)


Here is the link to my original posting (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=288813&postcount=48).

"Most young men and women see postsecondary education as the key to prosperity and job security. The percent of youth going to college is increasing, and YATS results show that young people are aware that the military offers money for a college education. Educational funding is the most frequently cited reason for enlisting, and the percent of youth mentioning education funding is growing.
............................

For many noncollege youth, military service offers an opportunity for job experience and specialized training.
..............................

These findings underscore the need for college funds to attract an important segment of college-bound youth (those needing money).
"

The quote is from Army's own material.


START EATING.

[Joe Blow]

Those who support war always have an excuse why they can't fight.

If the bombs were falling on their neighbourhood I guarantee they'd change their views pretty quickly.

[zman]

So how can you assume based on that information that Sheenan went in for that reason?

Is there a specific study for him?

[gworld]

So how can you assume based on that information that Sheenan went in for that reason?

Is there a specific study for him?

Here is the link to your post (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=288909&postcount=75)that quoted me saying that I don't know about his specific case. So you knew very well that I wasn't talking about him.

For someone who says he is not a politician, you certainly know how to lie like one.

Here is another one that got killed but didn't want to be there.

"Nadia and Robert McCaffrey, whose son Patrick was killed in Iraq in June 2004, said "Operation Iraqi Freedom" ended up on his government-supplied headstone in Oceanside, California, without family approval.

"I was a little taken aback," Robert McCaffrey said, describing his reaction when he first saw the operation name on Patrick's tombstone. "They certainly didn't ask my wife; they didn't ask me."

He said Patrick's widow told him she had not been asked either.

"In one way, I feel it's taking advantage to a small degree," McCaffrey said. "Patrick did not want to be there; that is a definite fact."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/war.gravestones.ap/index.html

[zman]

For someone who says he is not a politician, you certainly know how to lie like one.

Ouch! Thats a bit harsh dont ya think.

Ok so we have established that it is not known why he joined. There is an opinion, but no proof. Thats what I was trying to get at. :D

[Design Agent]

I disagree. DA and I have argued here, but we both have talked via PM or rep. You can debate and still be an adult you know.

You say fight, I say debate. As long as it is left at debate it is fine.

zman & I were debating and it didnt get to personal insults - THAT is the point.. how will either of us ever change our views if we dont discuss? I respect the fact that he can be opinionated and stand up for what he believes in, he's not forcing anyone to agree, the pot smoking, tattoo'd independent conservative politician from reno :p

If he was calling me a moron and vice versa, then there just would have been no conversation full stop. Hence I cant really read most Gworlds comments - although I often kind of agree.

btw, no race card - was trying to workout 'when' it was so good for you ;)

[gworld]

Quote:
If you have no questions regarding my site for sale, please don't post your useless comments in my thread.

Ouch! Thats a bit harsh dont ya think.

Ok so we have established that it is not known why he joined. There is an opinion, but no proof. Thats what I was trying to get at. :D


:confused: :confused: :confused:

Try to use quote=name of poster, so we know who you are quoting and what is it about.

[yfs1]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Try to use quote=name of poster, so we know who you are quoting and what is it about.
I think he was reffering to this:
http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=25292&page=7

About 50 people posted PM me please when he wouldn't give the info on the site so I said Not to PM me, as a little bit of a joke.
He took it personally and told me not to waste his time.
zman came to my defence that it was pretty funny in an otherwise pointless thread.

Its off topic in this thread

[digimania]

Nobody wins on a war. However, since it was already there, the best thing that BUsh should do is to finish the job.

[zman]

Crap, I quoted the wrong thing. I fixed it now. ;)

[palespyder]

the pot smoking, tattoo'd

You Rang?? ;)

Sheehan has the right to speak her mind and to protest whats going on, but, the service in the military is voluntary. Noone forced her son to join. HE made the decision to fight, HE made the decision to put his life on the line against the enemies of the U.S. and therefore HE is responsible for his actions, not George Bush. I can empathize with the protestors from the Vietnam era because alot of those kids were drafted against their will, but, now our entire military force is voluntary service and it is each man and woman of those forces who make a conscious decision to join a high risk profession. Mrs. Sheehan should go home and let the President do his job, now that we are in Iraq it would be an incredibly BAD idea to just walk away.

[Arnie]

Isn't the whole thread about a mother with "monkey love" towards her son instead of "unconditional love". - I guess she feels guilty and perhaps is.

[Design Agent]

You Rang?? ;)

Sheehan has the right to speak her mind and to protest whats going on, but, the service in the military is voluntary. Noone forced her son to join. HE made the decision to fight, HE made the decision to put his life on the line against the enemies of the U.S. and therefore HE is responsible for his actions, not George Bush. I can empathize with the protestors from the Vietnam era because alot of those kids were drafted against their will, but, now our entire military force is voluntary service and it is each man and woman of those forces who make a conscious decision to join a high risk profession. Mrs. Sheehan should go home and let the President do his job, now that we are in Iraq it would be an incredibly BAD idea to just walk away.

Its easy to say that when you have the skills to design and rank sites. For many it is not really a choice - for some it is the best option in their lives.

yes, its a bad Idea to leave, but actually I think that this will damage the US govt. rather than actually stop the war. A change of approach has been required since before the war was declared. So it is long overdue.

[gworld]

Isn't the whole thread about a mother with "monkey love" towards her son instead of "unconditional love". - I guess she feels guilty and perhaps is.

What is "monkey love" ?

[Arnie]

The love for this world, material, social status and so.

[ferret77]

Its funny I could sworn a little bit ago there was a lady named terry schivo that all the right wing people seem to have so much support for .... now the same people seem to think its just soooo wrong to champion some indviduals cause.

Just curious but how is she exploited?, if I wanted my protests heard about something and micheal moore or Bill Rielly or anyone for that matter would help me get more air time and more exposure I would stoked for the help.

[zman]

Its funny I could sworn a little bit ago there was a lady named terry schivo that all the right wing people seem to have so much support for .... now the same people seem to think its just soooo wrong to champion some indviduals cause.

Very true. That is a right winger for you. Thats why Im glad I supported what happened in that case. Schivo's situation is a completely different issue but I supported what happened. Then again Im no right wing person. ;)

[debunked]

Its funny I could sworn a little bit ago there was a lady named terry schivo that all the right wing people seem to have so much support for .... now the same people seem to think its just soooo wrong to champion some indviduals cause.


I don't think the Shivo case is at all the same. One couldn't speak for herself, the other is speaking for her son.

I believe that Sheehan has her place to be mad but to change her story to the extreme she has is only damaging. She doesn't seem to be representing her son's wishes, but she is her own. I do feel sorry for her loss, but it seems she is being used.

Just curious but how is she exploited?, if I wanted my protests heard about something and micheal moore or Bill Rielly or anyone for that matter would help me get more air time and more exposure I would stoked for the help.

Soooo true....

[ferret77]

they are differenent issues but essentially the same thing

parent(s) losing their child being championed for poltical purposes

except for the most part no actual democrat politicians have gone to hang out with sheehnan, but congress I believe had an emergency session to vote on some BS terry shivio law

[ferret77]

One couldn't speak for herself, the other is speaking for her son.

terry schivo and sheehans son were about on the same wavelength , neither has much to say

[debunked]

terry schivo and sheehans son were about on the same wavelength , neither has much to say
both killed by terrorists

[ferret77]

that has to be one of the dumbest things I ever heard

[gworld]

that has to be one of the dumbest things I ever heard

Don't be hard on debunk, he has a direct line to God and he is in regular discussion with God and Jesus, so he knows things that mortals don't know. :)

[Crazy_Rob]

that has to be one of the dumbest things I ever heard


Are you new around these parts, son?

[palespyder]

Its easy to say that when you have the skills to design and rank sites. For many it is not really a choice - for some it is the best option in their lives.


I am a veteran of the U.S. Army. I made the same choice and yes you ALWAYS have a choice.

[debunked]

funny how one line got your briches in a bind. LOL . I was trying to figure out in what way they where the same.

[carowan]

She has a very compelling case......

I was all for the war when the WMD were a slam dunk, but after all the lies came to light.......dont think she is too far of base.

But as Colin Powell said "If you break it, you buy it." And we definitely bought it, as we just cannot cut and run.

[teamshop]

She has a very compelling case......

I was all for the war when the WMD were a slam dunk, but after all the lies came to light.......dont think she is too far of base.

But as Colin Powell said "If you break it, you buy it." And we definitely bought it, as we just cannot cut and run.

WMD was a slam dunk only in Bush's eyes. He went into Iraq to finish what dad started. All he needed to do was come up with a reason that he could use to gain the populations support.

[mizt]

WMD was a slam dunk only in Bush's eyes. He went into Iraq to finish what dad started. All he needed to do was come up with a reason that he could use to gain the populations support.

I see, so the reason Clinton when't in there was because he? a) Wanted to help to get revenge for George Bush Senior? b) Finish what George Bush Senior started? c) Gain populations support? d) To kill american troops for no reason and draw attention away from Ms. Lewisnosky. Hmm, I'll go ahead an phone a friend and anwser E, he when't in with the same reasons as Bush did (WMD) though much was much more of a will to win and a sense of pride for his and other freedom unlike Clinton.

[gworld]

She has a very compelling case......

I was all for the war when the WMD were a slam dunk, but after all the lies came to light.......dont think she is too far of base.

But as Colin Powell said "If you break it, you buy it." And we definitely bought it, as we just cannot cut and run.

In the present situation, it doesn't matter if you cut and run today or in 5 years, the only difference will be the cost and the number of casualties on both side.

A modern army is not built to fight a Guerrilla warfare, look at the whole history of the world in this century, Brittan understood this and that was the reason they left their colonies after WWII. French learned their lesson in Vietnam and Algeria. Russians learned it in Afghanistan. American should have learned it in Vietnam and many proxy wars such as Cuba, Nicaragua and El Salvador but they didn't.

The math is very simple:

on one side you have soldiers in a foreign country that have no real knowledge of their environment and on other hand you have Guerrilla fighters that know every inch of their area.

On one side, you have soldiers that do not want to die and it is hard to replace and on the other side you have people that living or death doesn't make that much of a difference to them because of their situation and new fighter join in to replace the dead because of the occupation.

On one side you an army with huge cost that is a burden to economy and the other side you have a force that depends on local economy and is not suffering from any financial loss. This was the cause the Soviet lost in Afghanistan, not because of the number of their dead.

If you don't believe me and if you are in USA then ask any West Point officer about this.

The alternatives are simple,

1- either cut and run now and take the international blame for what ever happens after that.

2- Try to establish a real democracy and win the heart and mind of local population with true changes such as free democratic elections, free media (even for opposition), rules of law for prisoners,.... Stop all the American companies interest in Iraq to prove that the army is not there to benefit American financially. Establish a true international force that supports the true democracy. The outcome is not sure, it can be a pro-American or Anti-American government but in either case it stops the bloodshed in Iraq and let American force leave that country with moral superiority and leadership and friendship of local population.

[teamshop]

I see, so the reason Clinton when't in there was because he? a) Wanted to help to get revenge for George Bush Senior? b) Finish what George Bush Senior started? c) Gain populations support? d) To kill american troops for no reason and draw attention away from Ms. Lewisnosky. Hmm, I'll go ahead an phone a friend and anwser E, he when't in with the same reasons as Bush did (WMD) though much was much more of a will to win and a sense of pride for his and other freedom unlike Clinton.

All Clinton did was lob in a few cruise missles, his favorite response to everything including Bin-Laden when was spotted in Afghanistan.

[mizt]

Hell we better get some some american interests in Iraq, I'm sure as hell tired of paying 2.60 a gallon.

Gworld, I'll keep this short and sweet, please tell me a nation that the U.N. has sucessfully rebuilt? After you get done looking for the anwser to that question then tell me the nations the United States has successfully rebuilt. Saying the United States can't rebuild Iraq in to a constructive democracy in the middle east is hogwash.

[ferret77]

i thought clinton just did bombing raids on targets they believed to be involved with wmd? Did he send any toops in there? How many americans died overthere then?

[teamshop]

Hell we better get some some american interests in Iraq, I'm sure as hell tired of paying 2.60 a gallon.

Gworld, I'll keep this short and sweet, please tell me a nation that the U.N. has sucessfully rebuilt? After you get done looking for the anwser to that question then tell me the nations the United States has successfully rebuilt. Saying the United States can't rebuild Iraq in to a constructive democracy in the middle east is hogwash.

The U.S. has been much more successful rebuilding than the UN but that was a long time ago and they didn't have the issues being faced in the middle east where their is too much going against democracy in any form due to various radical religious zealots that will never agree to anything but themselves having total control and are more than willing to use terrorism to prove their point.

[gworld]

Hell we better get some some american interests in Iraq, I'm sure as hell tired of paying 2.60 a gallon.

Gworld, I'll keep this short and sweet, please tell me a nation that the U.N. has sucessfully rebuilt? After you get done looking for the anwser to that question then tell me the nations the United States has successfully rebuilt. Saying the United States can't rebuild Iraq in to a constructive democracy in the middle east is hogwash.

What you don't understand is that American companies interest is not the same as American people interest. I mentioned this before and compared it to a company like world com or Enron, was the illegal actions was for the benefit of few in management or the share holders? While few earned many millions, the shareholders and employees lost everything in the bankruptcy.
There is 5 million barrel of oil is produced in USA everyday and it is owned by American companies. Before the war this was sold at about $25/ barrel. Today it is sold at $60/barrel. The difference is 60-25=$35/ barrel. Since there is no war in USA, the production cost has not gone up compare to couple of years ago. Now can you tell me how much extra profit these oil companies make per day because of the war?

If you referring to Germany or Japan, that was a war between countries and not a Guerrilla warfare. You don't need to believe me, ask any military officer (not simple soldier), especially a West Point officer about this. Where did I mention in my posting the UN?

[GTech]

She has a very compelling case......

I was all for the war when the WMD were a slam dunk, but after all the lies came to light.......dont think she is too far of base.


http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=25263&highlight=looted
.
.
.
.

[gworld]

Even when Bush, Chaney and Rumsfeld admit that there was no WMD, Gtech is still finding some. :)

[GTech]

I was not aware B,C and R made any such admissions?

How does something that doesn't exist get looted?

How do 1500 gallons of chemical wmd appear in Iraq when they don't exist?

How did zarqawi get 20 tons of chemical wmd (VX) when they didn't exist?

Apparently there are no answers for these tough questions.

[ferret77]

can you post any real news source that verifys that?

the vx part,

a bunch of stuff got looted ... I guess theoretically they when they looted they took the lost ark , and maybe the holy grail too, might as well be wmds, could have been

[mizt]

Lets see, are most brillant people (Bush, Cheney, Rice, Kerry, and even Clinton :( ) all admitted at one time or another the intellgence they had strongly suggested there where WMD. Sorry but compare the education of Michael Moore and Cindy Sheean to people like Bush and Rice. There without a doubt was WMD's, hell the they used them on the Kurds. Don't get me wrong maybe Iraq did destroy their WMD's but why couldn't they follow UN regs? Why are the regulations in place if there is no one is going to enforce them? Freeing the people in Iraq is a noble cause in itself. The UN is like a principal that doesn't punish for breaking the rules that they set, it leads to chaos and bigger problems. The United States had to take a stand against terror at that time before bigger problems arised. What would we be debating right now if we had not gone into Iraq and a dirty bomb would of gone off in a Major US city that came from Iraq? Freedom has to be defended folks.

Sorry for the grammer errors, its late and I should really get to bed.

[GTech]

I could, but then you would dismiss it, like you've apparently done with the NYTimes article that goes into details.

Perhaps because you simply don't want to accept it? I've seen no one refute it. Not one person. No one's willing to stand up and say the sources are wrong and back it up with sources?

[gworld]

Latest chemical WMD discovered by Gtech in special container. :D

http://www.discountjanitorialsupply.com/windex.jpg

[GTech]

What a shame gworld, I would have figured you would be "the one" to attempt to discredit the facts.

Won't you, please? ;)

[gworld]

What a shame gworld, I would have figured you would be "the one" to attempt to discredit the facts.

Won't you, please? ;)

If you presented any facts, I would certainly answer but what can I say about your VX stories.

You talk about Iraq, there is no proof that Iraq ever had VX.

The only countries that have VX are USA, Russia, France and Syria claims to have it but not sure.

VX is very dangerous nerve gas, were did this terrorists got the technical capacity to carry it? Most likely they would be the first one dead if they come in contact with it.

Why should they carry it to Jordan from Iraq? Wasn't easier to use it in Iraq where the war is if they had access to it?

Why should they use explosives, you destroy VX by burning it and explosion is not an efficient method for nerve gas use, it is most effective through inhaling or skin contact. don't you think that if the terrorist had the technical capability to steal it and carry it, they would also know how to use it?

All this information can be found and verified on the INTERNET. Wikipedia.org is a good place to start. search for VX. ;)

[GTech]

What do you suggest isn't factual? That zarqawi didn't ship 20 tons of wmd to iraq?

That wmd were not looted before and after the initial invasion?

That chemical wmd were not found less than two weeks ago in Iraq?

Sorry but the rest of your post is simply speculation. I certainly wouldn't classify "why would they carry it to jordan?" as refuting what's been presented.

Is it really that tough to navigate around solid evidence?

[gworld]

What do you suggest isn't factual? That zarqawi didn't ship 20 tons of wmd to iraq?

That wmd were not looted before and after the initial invasion?

That chemical wmd were not found less than two weeks ago in Iraq?

Sorry but the rest of your post is simply speculation. I certainly wouldn't classify "why would they carry it to jordan?" as refuting what's been presented.

Is it really that tough to navigate around solid evidence?

If they say in fox news that they have found a monkey that flies, would you believe it? I hope not, think and see if it makes any sense.

[GTech]

gworld, I get it.

You don't want it to be true. It would be a serious blow to the rationalization you've used and would require some back peddling to come up with another reason to oppose the war.

I didn't expect you would counter anything. After all, the NY Times is one of the best resources for the anti-war crowd, yet amazingly they cover an important story about WMD being looted before and after the war started. This goes hand in hand with David Kay's findings that wmd were sent to Syria.

The Jordan wmd plot was carried by some, but not a lot of MSM sources. USAToday carried it. But for the most part, many MSM sources ignored it all together. Why wouldn't they? It could have potentially swayed the elections and they were not going to publish anything that could potentially benefit Bush. None the less, it did happen and as of May/June of 2005, the perpetrators who worked and trained for and with zarqawi in Iraq, are on trial in Jordan.

As to the latest findings in Iraq of chemical wmd. They were found. What can you say? Not much really. How could one offer reaonable commentary, other than "they have found a monkey that flies, would you believe it?"

You're not going to give it any weight. I can accept that. I'm more than satisfied that "if they have found a monkey that flies, would you believe it?" is the best you have to offer. I don't think you could have provided a more insightful comment.

[noppid]

Bush has not found another family that agrees with her because his handlers won't allow it.

[nevetS]

Just decided to post 14 pages into it.

Her son lost his life in a war. If that gives her the desire to camp out at the President's doorstep until the end of his administration then so be it. If anybody here has outlived their children, you can understand what she has gone through. If not, I wouldn't be so quick to criticize.

You can talk politics all you want, but you haven't lost a son or a daughter.

If something were to happen to one of my kids and I had a single person that I could place the blame on, you can bet I'd do a lot more than camp out and try to embarrass him.

[ferret77]

Here is a link to the whole article gtech

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/unmovic/2005/0313systematic.htm

The disclosures by the Iraqi ministry, however, added new information about the thefts, detailing the timing, the material taken and the apparent skill shown by the thieves. Dr. Araji said equipment capable of making parts for missiles as well as chemical, biological and nuclear arms was missing from 8 or 10 sites that were the heart of Iraq's dormant program on unconventional weapons. After the invasion, occupation forces found no unconventional arms, and C.I.A. inspectors concluded that the effort had been largely abandoned after the Persian Gulf war in 1991.

It doesn't really say jack about wmd , some "equipment capable" could mean anything. A centirfuge , a scale to weight dope on, test tubes etc.

The kinds of machinery at the various sites included equipment that could be used to make missile parts, chemical weapons or centrifuges essential for enriching uranium for atom bombs. All of that "dual use" equipment also has peaceful applications - for example, a tool to make parts for a nuclear implosion device or for a powerful commercial jet turbine.

Dude there are centrifuges at a lot of large university labs, it doesn't mean they a wmd

Gtech the article absolutely does not say WMDs where looted, did you read it?

[ferret77]

Gtech here is a link to the supposed vx article

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,118203,00.html

Al-Jayousi said he received about $170,000 from al-Zarqawi to finance the plot and used part of it to buy 20 tons of chemicals. He did not identify the chemicals, but said they "were enough for all the operations in the Jordanian arena."

Some guys says he bought 20 tons of chemicals, of course there is no VX , no actually proof that he bought 20 tons of anything. Theorectially he could have spent the money on cocaine and hookers and just made up that story when he was caught to cover his ass

here is another article whihc says they did actually get some "chemicals"

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/jordan.terror/


At issue is the presence of a large quantity of sulfuric acid among the tons of chemicals seized by Jordanian authorities. Sulfuric acid can be used as a blister agent, but it more commonly can increase the size of conventional explosions, according to U.S. officials.

I'm pretty sure I can buy sulfuric acid legally, not quite the same as vx

Pretty much your news stories are BS , there was no WMDs, yeah they were going to try to create a toxic chemical bomb, out of poisioness chemicals, but not quite the same as military chem weapons, from saddam

[gworld]

ferret

Gtech can not be bothered with facts. He has heard this on fox news and that is enough for him. Did you hear about the latest from Fox:

"an unidentified man has been arrested with an unidentified chemical in an unidentified place by an unidentified government and now we have a proof that Iraq had WMD. " :D

[Henny]

I am a veteran of the U.S. Army. I made the same choice and yes you ALWAYS have a choice.


Unless your a Fetus, oh my, I hope I didn't start anything :p

[gworld]

Unless your a Fetus, oh my, I hope I didn't start anything :p

That's what the mothers for, to make the decisions. :p

[palespyder]

If something were to happen to one of my kids and I had a single person that I could place the blame on, you can bet I'd do a lot more than camp out and try to embarrass him.

Having lost a son in an auto accident I can honestly say you don't know this until it happens. I was angry at first and almost killed the boy who hit us on the side of the road, but, after careful consideration I called the young man up 2 days after "his name was Brent Johnson if you are curious if I remember" and told him I forgave him and that he should not let this destroy him, he should remain strong, finish school, and teach his kids what not to do. He wept and told me how sorry he was, I did my best to comfort him. So, you see, you ALWAYS have a choice, I could have killed him easily on the side of the road, I could have blamed him and held onto a rage until it destroyed me, but, I CHOSE to do it the other way.

Her son is a hero, he died what in my opinion is the most honorable way to die, in service to the country he loved and CHOSE to defend. I am in no way saying she doesn't have the right to protest, if thats what helps her cope, to point a finger at a blameless man, so be it. The truth of the matter is still Bush didn't pull the trigger, or plant the roadside bomb, or shell her son's camp, it was the people that the military is there trying to stop.

In closing, know that I have absolutely no love for George Bush, but, he is our President and he is in control, no amount of protesting his ranch, crying, screaming or hatred is going to make him pull out of Iraq, which I cannot blame him for, if he leaves now, almost anyone could become the next Saddam Hussain very easily. I am also not saying that Bush is not serving some of his own interests, show me a politician that says he/she doesn't and I will show you a liar.

[Crazy_Rob]

The media has made this a big deal...and it shouldn't be!

Exactly, Crazy_Rob...exactly! :D

[GTech]

Theorectially he could have spent the money on cocaine and hookers and just made up that story when he was caught to cover his ass


http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04123/309356.stm

The explosives and chemicals were to be carried in three trucks with reinforced bumpers for crashing through gates. The explosives were to be just enough to create a poisonous cloud of blister, choking and nerve agents. (In the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, the terrorists used too much explosive, and the chemicals in the van were consumed in the blast.) The conspirators said they hoped to kill as many as 80,000 people.

Intelligence expert John Loftus said the nerve agent in the chemical cocktail was VX. Syria doesn't make VX. Saddam Hussein's Iraq did.


As covered by USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-04-26-jordan-terror_x.htm

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/world/11961452.htm

Islamic militants planned to detonate an explosion that would have sent a cloud of toxic chemicals across Jordan, causing death, blindness and sickness, a chemical expert testified in a military court Wednesday.

Col. Najeh al-Azam was giving evidence in the trial of 13 men who are alleged to have planned what would have been the world's first chemical attack by the al-Qaida terror group. The accused include al-Qaida's leader in Iraq, Abu-Musab Al-Zarqawi, and three other fugitives who are being tried in absentia.

Jordanian security services foiled the plot in April last year. Jordanian officials say that had it been carried out, thousands of people would have died.


I don't see a compelling argument that they spent the money on cocaine and hookers. Both "could" potentially kill people on a smaller scale, but I've never heard of cocaine or hookers powerful enough to take out 80,000 people. Somehow I doubt thirteen people would be on trial in Jordan for attempting to kill 80,000 people with cocaine and hookers.


It doesn't really say jack about wmd , some "equipment capable" could mean anything. A centirfuge , a scale to weight dope on, test tubes etc.


The "anything" it could be, as mentioned, is:


"Saddam Hussein's most important weapons installations, including some with high-precision equipment capable of making parts for nuclear arms"

"equipment capable of making parts for missiles as well as chemical, biological and nuclear arms"

"As examples of the most important sites that were looted, Dr. Araji cited the Nida Factory, the Badr General Establishment, Al Ameer, Al Radwan, Al Hatteen, Al Qadisiya and Al Qaqaa. Al Radwan, for example, was a manufacturing plant for the uranium enrichment program, with enormous machine tools for making highly specialized parts, according to the Wisconsin Project. The Nida Factory was implicated in both the nuclear program and the manufacture of Scud missiles."

"Al Qaqaa, with some 1,100 structures, manufactured powerful explosives that could be used for conventional missile warheads and for setting off a nuclear detonation. Last fall, Iraqi government officials warned the United States and international nuclear inspectors that some 377 tons of those explosives were missing after the invasion. But Al Qaqaa also contained a wide variety of weapons manufacturing machinery, including 800 pieces of chemical equipment.

"The kinds of machinery at the various sites included equipment that could be used to make missile parts, chemical weapons or centrifuges essential for enriching uranium for atom bombs. All of that "dual use" equipment also has peaceful applications - for example, a tool to make parts for a nuclear implosion device or for a powerful commercial jet turbine."

Do you suppose saddam's one and only remaining attorney will argue that he was using nuclear material and tools to make "powerful commercial jet turbines?" Yes, we've all heard of saddam's jet turbine program :rolleyes:

Materials specifically monitored by the UN have been found outside of Iraq:

"In one case, investigators searching through scrap yards in Jordan last June found specialized vats for highly corrosive chemicals that had been tagged and monitored as part of the international effort to keep watch on the Iraqi arms program. The vessels could be used for harmless industrial processes or for making chemical weapons."

[ferret77]

one guy says there was some vx a couple minutes ago it was 20 TONS OF VX

there is difference between a bunch of toxic chemicals and a bunch of military made wepeons

The "anything" it could be, as mentioned, is:

not one thing mentioned is an actual wmd, centerfuges, test tubes, ... etc

[GTech]

one guy says there was some vx a couple minutes ago it was 20 TONS OF VX

there is difference between a bunch of toxic chemicals and a bunch of military made wepeons


Yet another guy says it could have been cocaine and hookers a couple minutes ago and now suggest there is some sort of difference in 20 tons of chemical weapons and military made weapons.

What is the difference?


not one thing mentioned is an actual wmd, centerfuges, test tubes, ... etc

According to who?

[GTech]

not one thing mentioned is an actual wmd, centerfuges, test tubes, ... etc

Could you please post a reference in the article in question to "centerfuges" and "test tubes?"

[ferret77]

If I made a bomb with 20 tons of bleach and draino is it a wmd?

if it is we better start invading all the supermarkets around here because almost all of them carry that, mix that with phantom fireworks down the road, and shit maybe the UN should send some inpsectors to Miami, we might join the axis of evil

wmd

# nuclear weapon
# biological weapon
# chemical weapon
# radiological weapon

Not a bunch of chemicals used for cleaning with some dyamite, something designed to kill mass people, VX, sarin, anthrax, bubonic plaque etc

it says centrifuges right here, if the article in question is the times article

The kinds of machinery at the various sites included equipment that could be used to make missile parts, chemical weapons or centrifuges essential for enriching uranium for atom bombs. All of that "dual use" equipment also has peaceful applications - for example, a tool to make parts for a nuclear implosion device or for a powerful commercial jet turbine.

[GTech]

Were bleach and draino mentioned?

Do supermarkets keep twenty tons of chemical wmd that include VX nerve agent in stock? I'm not familiar with any supermarkets like this.

[Sorvoja]

This whole thing is a bigger issue than it needs to be. Bush should reachout and give her 60 min of his time. I think it will
be a good and strong move. This will not get any better, I wonder what Kerry would have done?

[Henny]

He already did give her his time, please.. Bush should kick her in the ass.

[Sorvoja]

Oh, so he did talk with her? Then why the heck don't she give it a rest? Nobody should demand to meet him twice on the same issue. He got more important things to do.

It is a free country so nobody can stop her, but others shouldn't throw more fuel on to the fire. It is just disrespect of her, her son, and the president. Just my 2 cents.

[yfs1]

She met with him in June 2004 (I believe right after her son was killed). She had nothing but great things to say about him (Bush). But she has since changed her mind and would like another meeting but in the current context.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45800

"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis. I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith." - Cindy Sheehan

[gworld]

She met with him in June 2004 (I believe right after her son was killed). She had nothing but great things to say about him (Bush). But she has since changed her mind and would like another meeting but in the current context.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45800

"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis. I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith." - Cindy Sheehan

So what? Most likely before his son got killed, she had no reason to think about this war and the reasons behind it and her first statement was based on ignorance that is shared by many Americans, since then she has learned about the subject and is making more informed statements.

Good for her that she is intelligent enough to recognize her mistakes and brave enough to admit and take stand to correct it.

If changing your mind or statement is wrong, why nobody is blaming the government for changing the reasons for this war more often than some one changes his shirt?

[gworld]

She met with him in June 2004 (I believe right after her son was killed). She had nothing but great things to say about him (Bush). But she has since changed her mind and would like another meeting but in the current context.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45800

"I now know he's sincere about wanting freedom for the Iraqis. I know he's sorry and feels some pain for our loss. And I know he's a man of faith." - Cindy Sheehan

So what? Most likely before his son got killed, she had no reason to think about this war and the reasons behind it and her first statement was based on ignorance that is shared by many Americans, since then she has learned about the subject and is making more informed statements.

Good for her that she is intelligent enough to recognize her mistakes and brave enough to admit and take stand to correct it.

If changing your mind or statement is wrong, why nobody is blaming the government for changing the reasons for this war more often than some one changes his shirt?

[GTech]

ignorance that is shared by many Americans

why nobody is blaming the government

Nice, more attacks on Americans :rolleyes:

[lorien1973]

When she is calling the iraqi terrorists "Freedom fighters" I think that pretty much says it all right there. She's also been blaming Israel for all the problems over there. You don't like the war, great. You don't like that your son died. Great. But, the media treats her like she speaks for the majority of "military moms" out there, but it is hardly the case at all.

There is just a massive PR machine at work behind her pushing her out there more.

[yfs1]

So what?

Somebody asked if she had met with him before. I was just answering their question.

Sheeesh..I didn't even put any opinion in that post :rolleyes:

[gworld]

ignorance that is shared by many Americans
............
why nobody is blaming the government

Nice, more attacks on Americans :rolleyes:

More than 20 percent of American adults read at or below a fifth grade (or eleven-year-old) level -- making them functionally illiterate. The National Adult Literacy Survey of 1992 found that about 44 million adults could neither write clearly nor fully understand what they read.

Secretary of Education Richard Riley still believes that "too many students are spending too little time reading and too much time watching mind-numbing television."


Gtech

even secretary of education is Muslim terrorist sympathizer and is attacking USA but it is no surprise because even when I quote White House, US Senate or CIA you call them terrorist sympathizer too. :rolleyes:

As usual you are so desperate that you have to cut my sentence in the middle to make your point. The whole meaning is if they blame her for changing her mind, why not blame government for changing the reason for war?

By the way, anybody remembers what is the reason for the war today? It has changed so many times, it is difficult to remember what is the last version?

[GTech]

Are you saying you are, or are not, proud of calling Americans ignorant? Are you proud you call Christians morans, or not?

Don't be pulling a John Kerry on me ;)

What else can you attack America on? Perhaps some of your favorite failed policies of the day?

[gworld]

Are you saying you are, or are not, proud of calling Americans ignorant? Are you proud you call Christians morans, or not?

Don't be pulling a John Kerry on me ;)

What else can you attack America on? Perhaps some of your favorite failed policies of the day?

Gtech

Are you part of the 20% mentioned in the statistics that don't fully understand what they read?
How is has your posting related to anything that I said ?

[GTech]

So you are unsure if you are, or are not, proud of calling Americans ignorant? And unsure if you are proud to call Christians morans?

Surely you aren't trying to blame the quote you posted for what you said before it?

[palespyder]

gworld, inquiring minds want to know. Where are you from?

[gworld]

So you are unsure if you are, or are not, proud of calling Americans ignorant? And unsure if you are proud to call Christians morans?

Surely you aren't trying to blame the quote you posted for what you said before it?

I didn't say All Americans are ignorant, I said many. Don't you think that in 44 million adults who can't read or write, at least part of them are ignorant?

The word Christian was not used in my previous posting at all.

I do not blame the quote at all, I used the quote as a proof of what I said, as it should be.

[Crazy_Rob]

He's a canuck!....GET 'IM!!

[palespyder]

Canadian huh??? look what I found:

Adult Literacy in Canada

# Twenty-two per cent of adult Canadians have serious problems dealing with any printed materials.

# An additional 24 per cent of Canadians can deal only with simple reading tasks.

# Western Canada and Ontario generally have higher literacy skills than Atlantic Canada and Quebec.

# Less than 10 per cent of Canadians who could benefit from literacy upgrading programs actually enrol. Research indicates that barriers like job or money problems, lack of childcare and transportation are some of reasons preventing people from enrolling.
(Who Wants to Learn?, ABC CANADA Literacy Foundation, 2001)


etc....

Literacy is a worldwide problem, not just American.

***Edited because it didn't post the whole thing the first time...and again to remove the crap***

[palespyder]

And I won't post the U.K. stats because it's unfair, they have like 15 people in the UK ;)


j/k you guys have amazing literacy rates.

[gworld]

Canadian huh??? look what I found:

etc....

Literacy is a worldwide problem, not just American.

***Edited because it didn't post the whole thing the first time...and again to remove the crap***

Very good, Thank you.

Let's fight the illiteracy and spend the resources to literate people everywhere in the world, instead of producing weapons, going to war and killing each other.

[GTech]

I didn't say All Americans are ignorant, I said many. Don't you think that in 44 million adults who can't read or write, at least part of them are ignorant?


So when you said:


Most likely before his son got killed, she had no reason to think about this war and the reasons behind it and her first statement was based on ignorance that is shared by many Americans


you were really saying that Cindy Sheehan learned to read and write sometime in the last year, and that she made her previous statement because at the time, she didn't know how to read and write which made her ignorant, like many other Americans?

The word Christian was not used in my previous posting at all


I never said it was. I was referring to the Robertson thread you started. Perhaps the title would ring a bell?

Yet amazingly enough, instead of a simple yes or no, you manage to do everything but respond to the simplest of questions:

So you are unsure if you are, or are not, proud of calling Americans ignorant? And unsure if you are proud to call Christians morons?

[GTech]

LMAO Rob, thanks for the correction :D

[gworld]

Does anyone here knows what is Gtech talking about and if it has got anything to do with my postings? :confused:

It seems he just repeats that anybody who does not follow his crazy ideology is against American, Israel, Christians and Jews without saying anything relevant to discussion or my posting.

Probably I can post that it is sunny in Vancouver and he will answer you attack American,Christian, Israel and Jews. :rolleyes:

[Henny]

Gworld your a fool. If you think we can sit back and teach people to read and write, love and let live, you are proving your own foolishness. They will come, they will kill. Kill you, kill me, kill your mom, dad, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, cousin, son, daughter. They do not want you to exist. GET IT??????

So you go sing around the fire with all your hippy friends while the rest of us save the world.

BTW, I was reading an article the other day that Islam isn't even a real religion. Interesting read. JiHAd that fuckers.

[Crazy_Rob]

Gworld your a fool. If you think we can sit back and teach people to read and write, love and let live, you are proving your own foolishness. They will come, they will kill. Kill you, kill me, kill your mom, dad, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, cousin, son, daughter. They do not want you to exist. GET IT??????

So you go sing around the fire with all your hippy friends while the rest of us save the world.

BTW, I was reading an article the other day that Islam isn't even a real religion. Interesting read. JiHAd that fuckers.

What a lame post! Are you 13 years old?

[zman]

Does anyone here knows what is Gtech talking about and if it has got anything to do with my postings?

Yes. He is asking you a simple question and then letting the rest of us watch you dance around it. :)

[Henny]

Crazy_Rob, I wish I was a teenager. Oh and lame is in the eye of the beholder :D

[GTech]

Ah, the "gworld dance." Soon to be more popular than a google dance :D

[debunked]

Yes. He is asking you a simple question and then letting the rest of us watch you dance around it. :)

I was thinking that but couldn't come up with the right words, because I am an ignorant, dislexic, illliderit, amerikan hoo rax up huggg fone bils talkin to god.
:eek:

[gworld]

Gworld your a fool. If you think we can sit back and teach people to read and write, love and let live, you are proving your own foolishness. They will come, they will kill. Kill you, kill me, kill your mom, dad, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, cousin, son, daughter. They do not want you to exist. GET IT??????

So you go sing around the fire with all your hippy friends while the rest of us save the world.

BTW, I was reading an article the other day that Islam isn't even a real religion. Interesting read. JiHAd that fuckers.

So according to you, I am a fool because I think that people should be literate, what is your suggestion? Should we close all schools and keep people illiterate. :rolleyes:

I like to thank you for all your effort to save the world, the situation must be worse than I thought if it needs to be saved by you but I don't think it is needed. It is impossible for them to kill my mom or dad because both of them passed away because of Cancer which is a much more dangerous killer than any terrorist organization and may be if we spend all the resources that we spend on war, on fighting cancer, so many people would not die every year.

[Crazy_Rob]

BTW, I was reading an article the other day that Islam isn't even a real religion. Interesting read.

I think you were reading an article about Scientology!

[GTech]

I'd call that one a show stopper debunked! I haven't laughed so hard in a long time :D

[gworld]

Yes. He is asking you a simple question and then letting the rest of us watch you dance around it. :)

I don't know what is the question, may be you can explain but I will dance for literacy, peace, human rights, respect of law, fighting diseases and hunger any time. Just send the invitation. ;)

[debunked]

I think you were reading an article about Scientology!I think Rob (although crazy) is correct about this one!

[palespyder]

Great stuff debunked!