Shot man not connected to bombing

[MELLA]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711021.stm

A man shot dead by police hunting the bombers behind Thursday's London attacks was a Brazilian electrician unconnected to the incidents.

:( How awful....:(

[Blogmaster]

That is a tragedy, and what a screw up from the police.

That is definately something that needs to be investigated in full and future fatal mistakes such as those have to be prevented.

I do however deeply dislike the comment that

Dr Azzam Tamimi from the Muslim Association of Britain told BBC News:

"It is human lives that are being targeted whether by terrorists or whether in this case unfortunately, by people who are supposed to be chasing or catching the terrorists."

I don't believe that for one second. Human lives are not being targeted. We all make mistakes trying to get accomplished what we need to and in this case that "mistake" was horrendous. The best thing we can do to honor the dead IMO is to learn from the procedings that caused this to happen and pray for his family to get thru this without becoming hateful and letting this destroy them.

[TommyD]

I've been hearing about 'racial profiling' in the UK lately so much non-dark skinned people are avoiding hanging out with dark-skinned people. Now hearing that, and having 20 men in plain clothing chasing me, I would run too.

Simply a tragedy, hope it wasn't all in vain. :(

[Talkfreelance]

He shouldn't have run from the police and jumped over a barrier then should he?

At the end of the day, we were not in the situation, I HATE it when people jump in on the police about how they target people simply based on race. It's a common fact that the people who blew up our tube system and continue to blow themselves up are muslims, when someone refuses to stop, runs away and onto a train with a large overcoat on......what do you think they should have done?

He could have been a bomber, we don't know.....what would have happened if it turned out he was? Potentially hundreds of lives saved, mistakes happen. Maybe next time the police tell someone to stop and give chase they will damn sure listen. Only has himself to blame.

[Blogmaster]

I've been hearing about 'racial profiling' in the UK lately so much non-dark skinned people are avoiding hanging out with dark-skinned people. Now hearing that, and having 20 men in plain clothing chasing me, I would run too.

Simply a tragedy, hope it wasn't all in vain. :(
I don't think I would run from authorities even though I have done so in the past (traffic stuff). If you are innocent, you should remain calm and let due process run its cause.
He shouldn't have run from the police and jumped over a barrier then should he?

At the end of the day, we were not in the situation, I HATE it when people jump in on the police about how they target people simply based on race. It's a common fact that the people who blew up our tube system and continue to blow themselves up are muslims, when someone refuses to stop, runs away and onto a train with a large overcoat on......what do you think they should have done?

He could have been a bomber, we don't know.....what would have happened if it turned out he was? Potentially hundreds of lives saved, mistakes happen. Maybe next time the police tell someone to stop and give chase they will damn sure listen. Only has himself to blame.

Profiling does happen anywhere. Where I live, 95% are white and the average age is 24. When you drive here around 2 a.m. (right after the bars close), you get profiled easily. Drunk driving is out of control over here. I have been stopped as well and there was no reason to stop me at all. I was upset, but in retrospect I believe that the job of police is very hard and some leadway needs to be given. The problem is when you give too much power to the cops and the bad ones start harrassing folks to stroke their own egos.
Proper support and accountability is necessary in every suciety.

I think that the profiling tactics where I live have been saving lives. I also think that cops can be overwhelmed not knowing who is a terrorist and likely to be one. The best thing to do is to let them do their thing, get the batch number, and if they turn their duties into abuse ... report them ASAP to prevent future abuses from happening to others.

Just a thought.

Mike

<edit>Something else: It can be racism but does not have to be. If you are looking for certain individuals, you can be easily mistaken for them if you look similar. Same like if a bankrobber wore a yellow sweater and you happen to wear one the day of a bankrobbery and happen to be somewhere in the same area. You might get stopped, but that is not something that should be taken as anything other than procedure. The sooner you as an innocent suspect get cleared, the sooner the law can procede and go after those who really committed the crime.</edit>

[TommyD]

I don't think I would run from authorities even though I have done so in the past (traffic stuff). If you are innocent, you should remain calm and let due process run its cause.

Good point, but my point is, how did he know? With the problems that stem from media fuel racial biased, how could he discern the mob was ununiformed police doing their duty, or vilgilantes, or cops planning on gunning him down?

Giving up hindsight, I would know I have two choices:

1. stand and take a chance I was going to be killed by vigilantes.

or

2. Run to survive. if vigilantes, I live. If cops, I get arrested later telling them I was scared.

#2 has more promise of living. I'm sure that's all he wanted to do.

RIP

[Shoemoney]

I hope this fricking bombing fad goes away very soon...

[mate_pl]

now the attack in egypt. 88 killed. this world is a total mess...

question to the people trying to say "why did the brasilian ran from the authorities". Why did they shot him 5 times? Is maybe one shot in leg enough?

[MELLA]

Why did they shot him 5 times? Is maybe one shot in leg enough?

Good point! If they DID as they claim to..think that he was somewhat involved in Thursday's attack, then wouldn't the guy have been of much more use to them alive, than dead.

Tbh there was no need to shoot him FIVE times in the head. That's not like the police, it sounds more like a flippin SAS attack.

I bet the policeman that shot him, must feel like shit. Although I don't blame the police...they obviously thought they were doing best and had the frame of mind that if he was indeed connected then by shooting him, it's preventing maybe another 20 people from dying.

I don't know why he ran..and I guess now, we'll never know (although I do think there's a whole lot more to the story that we aren't hearing right now..) But his English might not have been too great - and having a load of PLAIN CLOTHED officer's chasing you with guns, shouting at you is quite a scary thing to happen. You don't know for sure what you'd do in a situation like that, unless it actually happens to you. I have read other comments about this on other forums and people are saying things along the lines of ''Glad they shot him, the idiot shouldn't have run'' ...what a disrespectful thing to say. I'm sure if it was one of their family or someone they know they wouldn't be so quick to judge.

RIP.

[T0PS3O]

Good point! If they DID as they claim to..think that he was somewhat involved in Thursday's attack, then wouldn't the guy have been of much more use to them alive, than dead.

No! The whole point of their shoot to kill instructions is to KILL. Shoot him in the leg, he pulls the bomb's trigger and say goodbye to your tube station.

That's the problem. They either had to kill him or be convinced he was innocent. They poor guy gave them no choice by running. They couldn't do anything else but kill in this instance.

BTW as per the other thread, I (almost) knew it wasn't a bomber. UK coppers have a reputation with these things.

And by the way, loads of dark skinned people where winter coats in summer here. I never understood why but they sure as hell aren't all bombers.

So police failed again. Chased the wrong guy, guy is dead in the most appaling way one can die.

Stay clear from the tube if you aren't white, carry bags, wear rucksacks or use mobile phones. You are in danger of being shot in the head 5 times.

[mcfox]

He shouldn't have run from the police and jumped over a barrier then should he? ... Only has himself to blame.
He ran from three men brandishing a gun. None were in uniform and according to eye witnesses, no warning was given.

Also according to eye witnesses interviewed immediately after the incident by the media, he was prostrate and had two policemen kneeling on him when the third emptied 5 rounds into his head.

[T0PS3O]

Some idiot witnesses said he had wires sticking out of his coat. Well excuse me for not being a bomb expert but SURELY, you would not have wires sticking out of your coat if you don't want to get caught prior to fulfilling your mission. That was such a load of crap.

Aparently they were surveiling this guy's house, followed him when he left and the rest is history. Whoever was in charge of that needs to be sacked without honour.

This is TOTAL BOLLOCKS:

"This tragedy has added another victim to the toll of deaths for which the terrorists bear responsibility."

Nice way of allowing your troops to kill whoever they want and then blame the terrorists.

[TommyD]

Sorry to re-drudge up this thread, but further information came out about the victim and his murders.

Key points about his attire and behavior(ie running) were fibbed/mistakenly reported by the police.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/08/17/police.shooting/index.html

:(

tom

[yfs1]

I saw that this morning...He was walking a normal pace. He even stopped to get the newspaper. (All on cctv)

The only time he moved quickly was when the train was about to leave the station...we have all ran after a bus or train more than a few times.

No bulky jacket or bag either

[Old Welsh Guy]

This was an almighty cock up by the police, and worse still the amount of misinformation released at the time is not acceptable.

That said, I am sorry that this innocent man died, but his death is on the hands of the fanatics who brought suicide murdering into the UK. Until the point they did this there was no shoot to kill policy on suspected bombers. (although there was talk of it being in place during the Irish troubles)

As for these calls of racism, what a bloody joke. FACT these bombs were carried out in the name of Islam, FACT the majority of Muslims are Non white. It is NOT racism, it is balance of probabilities I am afraid. Just the same as when a white guy is involved in a crime the police are said to be looking for an IC1 male, NOT ANY IC1 male, but this specific white male. So now does it make sense to stop blacks & Asians, Chinese, Japanese etc when they are not looking for any of those groups?

I feel for this guy, I really do (even though he was in the country ilegally his visa having apparently run out 2 years earlier) that was no reason for him to die. This could have been innocent enough, he carries on unaware of being followed as the man could have been listening to an Ipod. He is dived on, he slips his hand inside his jacket to turn off the music, and is shot dead!

Very sad death, but maybe now it will make these suicide murderers think again about their actions and the cause and effect for their community in general. One guy was on the BBC news at lunchtime saying how it is not acceptable for people to be shot dead in a civilised, democratic caring society. Suddenly we live in a democracy? Why then are those with a gripe not doing things democratically? I am sorry, but if you want to live in a civilised society you have to behave in a civilised way.

I grew up in a rough area, at the age of 9 I carried a 9" blade knife (it was actually a cut down WWII bayonet). I knew the moment I pulled that knife if I was theatened, I had upped the anti, and it might well end up in someone getting hurt. Maybe this is why I have my take on things, I really don't know.

What I do know though is that in a democracy there is no need to behave in the way of the bombing murderers. It is possible to bring the country to its knees via civil disobedience. If all the muslims working on our transport system got together and took a day off work, it would cause far greater problems than a few bombs in London. And I for one would back them in their actions against a badly handled Iraq Affair.

Well I have been too political now so I better shut my mouth before I get a load of red rep lol.

[TommyD]

I grew up in a rough area, at the age of 9 I carried a 9" blade knife (it was actually a cut down WWII bayonet). I knew the moment I pulled that knife if I was theatened, I had upped the anti, and it might well end up in someone getting hurt.

Understood, it's publicly know about chances of getting harmed in the UK, but killed by the police? Here in the US if an office pumped up on adrenaline from a long chase even roughly handles a guilty man, he's looking at losing his job and going to jail. What has happened to these London Officers?

Tom

P.S. Don't worry about red reps, just hope when you get'em they have the guts to say who they are from. ;)

[yfs1]

No red rep here but I disagree.

Watching the tape their is absolutely nothing suspicious. Nothing that could even remotely resemble a bulge, etc

Why not arrest him when he was buying a paper? Surely, they could have detained him knowing it wasn't physically possible he had a bomb and he wasn't in a crowded area.

After the initial reports, although it was tragic, I tended to side with the "honest" mistake report because he was jumping barricades in a winter jacket but I don't see how this shooting will send a message.

[TommyD]

After the initial reports, although it was tragic, I tended to side with the "honest" mistake report because he was jumping barricades in a winter jacket but I don't see how this shooting will send a message.

See I can understand your position yfs1. However (notice I didn't say 'but'), confession time, I use to jump turnstiles and run in the NYC subway. Even before I was big enough to actually jump'em, I ran under the arm. Even if the police story doctoring was correct, I don't feel doing such acts a person should pay with their lives.

Just wrong, wonder if people are going to face justice for this.

tom :(

[yfs1]

See I can understand your position yfs1. However (notice I didn't say 'but'), confession time, I use to jump turnstiles and run in the NYC subway. Even before I was big enough to actually jump'em, I ran under the arm. Even if the police story doctoring was correct, I don't feel doing such acts a person should pay with their lives.

Except in the circumstances of that day I would have understood. It doesn't make it right.

[Old Welsh Guy]

Sounds like I am defending the police, but really I am not. I am just saying they made a dreadful mistake, one which cost this guy his life unfortunately. Now if they were told they must shoot to kill. A lot of people do not know what a shoot to kill policy actually is. They think that it is a case of, if you have to shoot, then you shoot to kill, It certainly isn't that. A shoot to kill policy means that they do NOT want the suspect arrested, they want him shot dead, regardless of actions. STK is in effect the death penalty without trial by jury. It is an execution order, and I am totally against it.

What do you do though when faced with an enemy who cares not a jot for the lives of others or himself? Is it right to risk the lives of the people around him? ALL of this stems from the fact that we are now facing suicide murderers, something we have not had to face before.

[Design Agent]

OK OK...

So WHY was he allowed on board the bus in the first place ?
He took a bus to stockwell tube.

There were bombings on the buses the ONLY safe place to have shot him would have been outside the door of his house. I dont buy this.

If this evidence had been released on the day there would have been riots. Hence the misinformation.

Also, OWG show me 1 benefit to any muslim from these bombings. Who actually benefits? All the bombs were in some of the most ethnically mixed areas of London.

[yfs1]

I don't blame the actual police that shot him...They were given strict orders and weren't allowed to assess the situation. Its the survellience team that gave the order and they had plenty of oppurtunities to take the suspect down

[TommyD]

Also, OWG show me 1 benefit to any muslim from these bombings. Who actually benefits? All the bombs were in some of the most ethnically mixed areas of London.

Fahrenheit 411?

Sinking of the Maine?

Sounds like you are scratching the surface.

:confused:

tom

[TommyD]

They were given strict orders ...

Things can be taken out of context, but agree. He was marked for death no matter what he did(or didn't do). Not necessary intentionally, but because of a fouled up system imposed by the police. He was executed for looking like he did.

:(

[mcfox]

The guy was executed.

He could have been stopped and detained at any point in his journey to the underground station.

Eventually, he was pounced on and restrained within the tube carriage. At that point, a plain clothes, undercover policeman put the gun to his head and emptied a 9mm clip into his brain. While he was restrained by another officer.

Why wait till he was on the tube itself? No cctv footage, that's why. Everywhere up to that point was covered by cctv. Within the carriage wasn't.

[Old Welsh Guy]

Also, OWG show me 1 benefit to any Muslim from these bombings. Who actually benefits? All the bombs were in some of the most ethnically mixed areas of London.

DA please don't have a go at me, I really do not want to get into a religious political debate online as posts are continually misunderstood. This is plain to see by the fact you think I am suggesting that Muslims have gained or in some way have a gripe against Muslims. I do not and have not, I have many Muslim friends and customers.

Put simply NO ONE has gained from these suicide murderers. It is wrong for these people to kill others and it is wrong for the police to have shot this guy. I am NOT taking sides, I am judging each case on individual merits. It makes no difference to me that it was Muslims who carried out these atrocities, you have to remember that in the 70's & 80's we had to put up with terrorist bombings from the IRA. I spoke out against them then, and speak up against those carrying out the current waive of murders.

As you quite rightly pointed out (something which i have also done on my politics forum). There were Muslims killed in these actions, so how can they claim what they claim when they are killing indiscriminately?

I have told you how I thought they could have gained more attention and public sympathy. Now what they have done is to make every single Asian, be they Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or whatever religion, a target for the right wing extremists who have been dreaming of an outrage like this so they can say 'we told you so'. The BNP, combat 18 etc will have a field day now, this has probably been their best recruiting summer for a long time.

I am no pacifist by any stretch of the imagination, but what i do believe is that if you have a problem with someone then you speak to that someone. What you do not do is try to terrorise them into submission, as 9 times out of 10 that will have the revers result.

As I mentioned earlier, for many years we had the IRA etc bombing the mainland of Britain. eventually they realised that the pen is indeed mightier than the sword, and they came to a negotiated settlement. ALL that is going to be achieved by this sort of action in the name of Islam is the alienating and damaging of relationships in society, in EXACTLY the same way that in the 70's & 80's anyone with an Irish accent was treated with suspicion. (The IRA stands for Irish Republican Army, hence the Irish accent thing).

All I ask is that you read what I am saying. People blame America and Britain for the situation in Iraq. Fine, I understand that. BUT, is it right to punish those who stood against the very war? Surely that is racism in itself. It was NOT the British or the American who invaded Iraq, it was our governments, and even then not all politicians were in favour. Some stood up against it and some even resigned over it.

I fully understand that emotions are running high, as you can see from my post. But what set me off being concerned was your comment of 'show me 1 Muslim who has gained from it' . WHY? Why should I do that? why did you ask me this question? in reply to your question I will ask you one of my own that I feel is better asked. can anyone show me 1 PERSON who has gained from this? The simple answer is no because it is an affront to humanity, carried out by people who should ashamed to consider themselves part of humanity. Like I say I don't give a damn what race colour or religion they were, I would condemn them if they were my own family.

Hopefully that has made my personal feeling a little more clear.
<edited to spell check only, no content changed> OWG I am crop at spolling

[Old Welsh Guy]

Why wait till he was on the tube itself? No cctv footage, that's why. Everywhere up to that point was covered by cctv. Within the carriage wasn't.


Good point. I shall read the official report when it comes out, but what is crystal clear is that someone lied. Somewhere along the line someone lied, and that is not acceptable in my book.

[mcfox]

Read through some of the articles about the Mock Terror Drill (http://infowars.com/articles/London_attack/mock_drill_relationship_to_real_attack.htm) happening at exactly the same time as the bombings on www.infowars.com.

Then the execution of an innocent man.

Classic 'occult double blind' (psy-op) strategy to muddy the waters.

[dcristo]

He shouldn't have run from the police and jumped over a barrier then should he?

At the end of the day, we were not in the situation, I HATE it when people jump in on the police about how they target people simply based on race. It's a common fact that the people who blew up our tube system and continue to blow themselves up are muslims, when someone refuses to stop, runs away and onto a train with a large overcoat on......what do you think they should have done?

He could have been a bomber, we don't know.....what would have happened if it turned out he was? Potentially hundreds of lives saved, mistakes happen. Maybe next time the police tell someone to stop and give chase they will damn sure listen. Only has himself to blame.

your fucked up dude. an innocent person got killed, i dont care how you want to put it.

[YianG]

Maybe that dude saw something he was not supposed to see, so the policemen shot him to death...? Just a thought.

And yes, I agree with dcristo completely. You could go so far and do so much harm in the name of "benefiting the majority." This logic leads to the eventual conclusion that in order to settle the differences, the world should always work the way that would benefit the group that has the largest population. I wish for a peaceful world to live in, but there are things I wouldn't do just so I can achieve that goal, for the fear that I wouldn't deserve such peace and prosperity afterwards.

[dcristo]

what really ticks me off, is this other poster (wanker) talks as if this person was deserving of being killed.

[gworld]

Latest documents and photographs:

1- He did not run from the police.

2- He used his Tube pass to enter the station.

3- He had taken a seat on the train before being grabbed by an officer.

4- He was wearing a light jacket and not padded coat.

5- He was physically restrained when he was killed

6- it is suggested that intelligence operation was botched because an officer watching an apartment believed to be the hide out of one of the suspects in the abortive July 21 attack was "relieving himself"

7- Lethal force was not the only option since a few days later police used a Taser stun weapon to arrest Yasin Hassan Omar, one of the July 21 bombing suspects.

Source: Daily Telegraph

[seckin]

STK is a quite complicated and also hard to decide position for the officer. Facinfg real danger and the limited decision time(1 or 2 sec.maybe) causes panic; on the other side, there's always a risk of finding himself being judged for his action.

[gaits2heaven]

Simply a tragedy,

[e10]

Give a thought to how terrified this poor man was before he had seven bullets in his brain. To how horrified and bereft his family feel at losing him, multiplied by the fact that if it wasn't for sharp reporting I really doubt we would have learned the truth that Menezes was a completely innocent party in this. If that hadn't have come to light his family would be left to carry the blight of all their neighbours and friends thinking their son died a murdering terrorist.

Would any of you accept your son or brother being gunned down in London because he lived in a shady building, had a good tan and was wearing a denim jacket?

[Design Agent]

i have used that tube station on and off forever.

[YianG]

STK is a quite complicated and also hard to decide position for the officer. Facinfg real danger and the limited decision time(1 or 2 sec.maybe) causes panic; on the other side, there's always a risk of finding himself being judged for his action.
Exactly, and that's also why not everyone could be an police officer. When people trust these people to carry firearms and walk around in the public, they believe they are being protected by the trained individuals who would make the right decisions and react the right way in the critical situations. This is a tragic accident, and this is also something that is absolutely not supposed to happen.

Even if he did behave as a bombing suspect, there are laws to apprehend such individuals. I thought all suspects are innocent until proven guilty? I didn't know the laws make exceptions when the officers see it fits, not to mention this guys wasn't doing any of the above. Even if he was running, screaming, waving both of his hands and laughing and doing catwheels while wearing three rain jackets plus a fur coat, the policemen still shouldn't have shot him seven times. Not to mention they shot him in the head SEVEN times. Was he wearing some kind of helmet that required such overwhelming power to put him down? No wonder many thought it was an execution.

[TommyD]

STK is a quite complicated and also hard to decide position for the officer. Facinfg real danger and the limited decision time(1 or 2 sec.maybe) causes panic; on the other side, there's always a risk of finding himself being judged for his action.

OK, I'll agree with the fact that we cannot fully put ourselves in the thinking process of an officer in danger. If he was. Now was he(or they) in danger here, after reading reports of people who got to see the footage, and eyewitness accounts, I wonder how was in danger here?

The officers?

The executed?

Hint: It was the one who was targeted by armed men blinded by rage (so much so, they pumped several shots into the head of a innocent subdued unarmed man and tried to get away with it by lying).

:confused:

[seckin]

TommyD, Yiang; I also feel sorry for the civilian, just like you. Poor man, this could still happen to any of us or to a beloved friend/family member. But if we have to look at both sides equally, there are other points we have to consider.

How many police officers are employed in big cities?Not 10, neither 100; thousands of them. I know it's not easy to accept, but actually, "real professionals" suitable for this kind of ops only exist in elite units, just like the SWAT, GSG or GEO, etc. The rest are ordinary police officers, some of them are very young&unexperienced people behind a uniform. I'm sorry but this is the fact for any country. You can't expect ANY OFFICER to decide and act like real pros, bearing in mind that even pros may be mistaken sometimes.

Now, was the situation dangerous enough? Unfortunately, yes. The suspect didn't have a firearm in his hand, but the real risk factor that the officers were warned about, was a suicide bombing. You can't see a suicide bomber approaching the police with a gun. These people load their bodies with explosives, hide them under thick clothing, just like the suspect. They often look pale, breath rapidly, display nervous/suspicious behaviour with wide open concentrated eyes, especially when facing security units. The suspect exhibited all of these symptoms. So, was there potential danger through the officers's eyes? Yes.

And the rules of engagement: The officers received STK orders in such situations. They fired multiple times at the head to neutralize the opponent's reflexes.This is done for the purpose of stopping a terrorist to press the triggering button at the final second.

Final risk analysis for the officer: If the suspect is a suicide bomber, tens of people die. Despite the warning, the suspect is still on the move. He bears many symptoms of a suicide bomber. There's no chance to wait for more evidence in this situation, and he's running out of time. The officers can't take anymore risk and the man dies.

Actually, if the man was really a terrorist, and was not shot, many civilians, perhaps including people you know, would have been dead.

It could still happen to anyone: Yes.
So if you somehow find yourself in such situation, try to keep calm. DON'T RUN,MOVE OR SHOUT. Don't try to tell your story. If you can't stop yourself, just say "Ok" and repeat it calmly. DON'T PUT YOUR HANDS IN YOUR POCKET. Rise your hands and do exactly what you are told to do. Remember that "things will be clear and ok in a short time, you are innocent, so there's no need to panic".

Sorry for the long post, but please consider these factors and realities, too.

[zman]

He shouldn't have run from the police and jumped over a barrier then should he?

This is probably the cleanest and best way to put it.

[gworld]

He shouldn't have run from the police and jumped over a barrier then should he?

This is probably the cleanest and best way to put it.


From couple of posting above, don't you read?

Latest documents and photographs:

1- He did not run from the police.

2- He used his Tube pass to enter the station.

3- He had taken a seat on the train before being grabbed by an officer.

4- He was wearing a light jacket and not padded coat.

5- He was physically restrained when he was killed

6- it is suggested that intelligence operation was botched because an officer watching an apartment believed to be the hide out of one of the suspects in the abortive July 21 attack was "relieving himself"

7- Lethal force was not the only option since a few days later police used a Taser stun weapon to arrest Yasin Hassan Omar, one of the July 21 bombing suspects.

Source: Daily Telegraph

[zman]

Sorry G, I dont buy it.

Police officers are not some bionic creation brought about in a science lab to kill innocent people. How do I know? My brother is a police officer in California and I consider him to be a normal human being who happened to choose a different field than I.

I just cannot buy into a media notion that a police officer approached a person and shot him in the head while he stood or sat in place making no movements at all. Thats just silly.

You can disagree with me, that is the beauty of being free.

[TommyD]

is a police officer in California

First he wasn't in California.

Second, have you ever listen to Pink Floyd's "The Wall?" When you listen to it, listen to it, he's talking about the social engineering in England's school system, and the machine. Once you have, then think about what you said, and how it's totally unrelated to the issue. ;)

NOTE: For some reason, I have my best understanding of the world when I'm totally wasted. :D

tom

[gworld]

Sorry G, I dont buy it.

Police officers are not some bionic creation brought about in a science lab to kill innocent people. How do I know? My brother is a police officer in California and I consider him to be a normal human being who happened to choose a different field than I.

I just cannot buy into a media notion that a police officer approached a person and shot him in the head while he stood or sat in place making no movements at all. Thats just silly.

You can disagree with me, that is the beauty of being free.

So according to you London Metropolitan police gives out false information to discredit it's own officers. :confused:

Too bad Gtech is not here, otherwise he could have told us that London police is Muslim terrorist sympathizer, the same way that US senate, CIA and other agencies with uncomfortable facts are.

[zman]

First he wasn't in California.

Second, have you ever listen to Pink Floyd's "The Wall?" When you listen to it, listen to it, he's talking about the social engineering in school systems, and the fueling the machine. Once you have, then think about what you said, and how it's totally unrelated to the issue.

Didnt say he was, said my brother was. ;)

Yes, many times. Listened to it while watching Alice in wonderland after a j. Whats your point?

[mcfox]

Read for yourself. There's a nice photo of the denim jacket. Shame the guy wearing it is dead.
http://www.itn.co.uk/news/1677571.html

[zman]

"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers. I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.

Moral of the story is:

If you have nothing to hide and you hear "police" dont be a dumbass, stay put and do what you are told.

nuff said.

[gworld]

Read for yourself. There's a nice photo of the denim jacket. Shame the guy wearing it is dead.
http://www.itn.co.uk/news/1677571.html

A war monger response to this photo.

Do you think this proves anything? How do you know the dead guy didn't change his jacket after he was dead.
I am sure that the dead guy and photographer and news paper are Muslim terrorists and that is the reason he has denim jacket.
If he has a denim jacket, doesn't matter because he worships moon God and doesn't matter that he was not Muslim and was Christian because I know he got himself killed just to hurt American fight against terrorism and there fore he deserved to die.

It is sad that even after the facts are known, still some people try to blame the victim for getting himself killed.

[zman]

It is sad that even after the facts are known, still some people try to blame the victim for getting himself killed.

That comment doeant hold much ground considering the fact that in other threads you seem to feel that those who cut off the heads of the innocent are also "victims". :rolleyes:

[zman]

In the US you can't harm a suspect unless the tries to harm you.

Quote from rep with no name.

That is correct, and also a flaw in the system.

Funny how people try to protect those who disobey authority. What has this world come to?

Look folks, if everyone would just stop when told to stop these problems would not exist.

[gworld]

Quote from rep with no name.

That is correct, and also a flaw in the system.

Funny how people try to protect those who disobey authority. What has this world come to?

Look folks, if everyone would just stop when told to stop these problems would not exist.


3- He had taken a seat on the train before being grabbed by an officer.


How do you stop in a sitting position on a seat? :confused:

[zman]

How do you stop in a sitting position on a seat?

Huh?

Who said anything about sitting in a seat? I am speaking in general.

Look folks, if everyone would just stop when told to stop these problems would not exist.

nothing about sitting in a seat. Oh I see, you are grasping for another "gotcha" arent you?

[gworld]

Huh?

Who said anything about sitting in a seat? I am speaking in general.

[QUOTE]Look folks, if everyone would just stop when told to stop these problems would not exist.[QUOTE/]

nothing about sitting in a seat. Oh I see, you are grasping for another "gotcha" arent you?

Sorry I thought this thread was about the man who got killed in London, I didn't realize it was on etiquettes of how to act toward police. :rolleyes:

[zman]

Sorry I thought this thread was about the man who got killed in London, I didn't realize it was on etiquettes of how to act toward police.

It's ok. I forgive you. :)

[Design Agent]

Look, guys I am not even going to read anymore 'terrorist threads/ posts'

I have grown up in/ near stockwell tube station, I have known that station for 20 years - if anyone can say the same then feel free to argue.

I REGULARLY wear walkmans with wires sticking out etc... I also have LIVED and SHOPPPED in Tooting most of my life. I have never had political affiliations because anyone that thinks the republicans/ conservatives, labour/ democrats (thats the way it USED to be) are out for anything BUT themselves is fooling themselves...

I have seem the threads get nasty against Gworld - which again is bullshit. I dont care HOW articulate you are..

The facts are SIMPLE:
1. We CANT have the world being able to find the recipe anthrax/ atomic bomb online or beung held hostage by those that can.
2. We CANT have the whole world stealing every film, song and book that exists (piracy in china is at 90%)
3. The london bombings were BULLSHIT (my bro lives in kings x + my mum travels to stockwell tube VERY REGULARLY) - NO muslim benefitted AT ALL. So dont tell me I am a muslim sympathiser - I DONT CARE - I have my own problems! I know what these areas are like FOR REAL.
4. Explain David Kelly, De mendoza, Flying the binladens home, cheney and rumsfeld, Murchdoch, hamid kahzi. Northern Alliance (the group formally known as the raping and pillaging mujahadjin)
5. Gtech + mia - no offence your arguments are very articulate and conclusive - BUT they are based on people that READ what they hear. - I can clearly see they are US centric and NOT based on what the rest of the world thinks.
6. I do NOT know a SINGLE person in the UK that thinks the war in ANYWAY is legitimate. in France I know 1 person, in switzerland I know NOONE. - You may call me a liberal - but if that is the case you are foolish.
7. My best friend OWNS a shop that sells 10 different papers - I read them ALL daily _ I have seen EXACTLY the same articles across MANY of them. I have seen reports of events I have attended MISCONSTRUED (i actually mean falsified) - Do your research and find out WHO owns the papers.
8. I respect your right to have an opinion - but like you fought against AC. you are UNWILLING to have an open mind - I DO! Gworld wants everyone to live in peace (which cant work either). I am no Leftie either.
9. I dont have anything against ANYONE - I love people in the US, on the whole for their optimistic attitude - hence I want to spend some time there.
10. I try NOT to comment on all the speculation you guys say. I have been watching this situation for 15 years now you really need to see the WHOLE picture.
10. Gworld got slaughtered in the 'other' terrorism thread - I may not be as articulate in typing as you two BUT I know I can SHOW you where this is clearly a mess.
11. My dissertation (at uni in 2000/2001 was based on the future of the world - because these thing were obvious to me then and now have just got worse) -
12. I have 0 polictical affiliation - because for example in th UK: you can decide ANYONE can have ANY role in government (today im health sec. tom im defence) - techincally in the UK you can win parliament with about 700 votes. - WHAT THE HELL IS A CABINET RESHUFFLE - I would NEVER do this to my company as Im sure most of you wouldnt. Holidays for the whole summer for the government???
13. I find ALL your arguments are POINT SCORING - and I tell you what.. if ANY of my family was MURDERED by a US Soldier/ Muslim Fundementalist - then I will do my BEST to wipe whoever's fault it was OFF the face of the planet.
14. As I said before, I have LIVED in tooting and been on the tube MANY times in Stockwell - so I KNOW what its actually like - NOT some News report. If they wanted to stop him they should have Shot him BEFORE he got on the bus. BUT THEY DIDNT - then they LIED about what happened - i have seen the police lie on MANY occasions.
15. MY sister lived less than 2 minutes away from the 'situation' - NOONE in South London trusts the police - as a DEGREE EDUCATED 28 year old I have been thrown on the bonnet AND HARRASSED by the police MANY times (with WHITE skin and DARK family - makes it even MORE common).
16. If ANYONE here knows anything about south London they will know we HATE the police 100% - not in some kind of NYC gangsta way - but just because we have seen SO MUCH corruption. I have evidence of this (ask my US clients (FROM SAN DIEGO) who were in London last month and got harassed by a bunch of jumped up policemen) trying to show their power. In the UK being a policeman is a well paid job that doesnt require too many skills or training...
18. Too many people here are talking like they ACTUALLY know what the situation is - and the truth is this: if you think ANYONEs shit smells different because of their religion then you are unfortunatley mistaken. I know muslim racists and white racists there is NO difference - the reasons the muslims are picked on (and fighting back) is because WE are IN THEIR COUNTRIES. - I would blow up the WHOLE of baghdad if the Iraqi army were patrolling london telling me what I can and cant do ) ken livingston is bad enough!
19. Althogh I am no longer there, I was brought up in the London underworld - I have see everything from yardies blowing each other away, to police harassing innocent people and pretty much everythin in between.
20. i didnt want to get involved in this kind of debate, but reading what I have been reading has ACTUALLY made me angry. _ I understand the need for security, but the way we are going is WAY beyond that - and in a large part thanks to the US Government policies (check when the first WORLD TRADE CENTRE (now known as the 'twin towers") bombing took place. - check binladens + rummy, lockhead and the rest's affiliation with each other.
21. I am 1/2 asian and 1/2 scottish - so BOTH sides of my family have been perscuted for 00000s years by the brits, BUT I am 100% brit and VERY PROUD.
22. I understand the need for STABILITY and as choice kill anyone that could harm my family + life before me, but we have got to the point where "rag heads' are being blamed when infact it is POLITICAL motivations are to blame (check donations to the republicans AND democrats by the SAME people)
21. I didnt want to have to make this kind of statement, but for weeks I have been reading about 'this blog' and that comment from many of you.
22. De menezes is NOT GUILTY of anything and I will now do my best to make sure I play a part in the downfall of those that lied and cheated the situation to suit their needs. I would never have even bothered until it was thrown on my doorstep.
23. The 7/7 bombings (as they are now called) were ALL in ethinic areas (i lived in Hackney, liverpool st and have visited Edgeware rd, russel square thousands of times). - you could NOT find an easier place to kill muslims and ethnic minorites in the UK.
24. Its been easy for you to pick on Gworld who just cares what happens to other - I DONT. - but try any polictical arugeument on the situation with me
(just because I tried NOT to get involved, doesnt meant I dont care or see..)

The facts are this:
I have chinese, french, swiss, engish, us, iranian, german, catholic, jewish, agnostic (and much more) friends and family and all of these games have gone FAR TOO FAR - when YOUR sister blows herself up for her cause - then you will see a different side.

I wouldnt like to see ANYONE harmed AT ALL + I dont care WHAT political pesuasion you are. This shit has to stop NOW, because if someone I care about is harmed then payback will be on a scale WAY above and beyond what has been seen so far will happen and I am sure there are MILLIONS out there that feel the same.

All those that think they can stay "out' of the debate as as bad as those that made that blacks sit on the back of busses - to me standing by is as commiting the crime itself.

Show me ANYONE from the UK that disagrees with these principles... I doubt you will find more than a tiny percentage. (if you are from the UK make your point here and now..)

The ONY country that thinks what is going on is right is the US.. and even then only a SMALL %. Africans, Indians, french, germans, dutch, russians, Irish, s americans, canadians, japanese, chinese, danish, finnish, swedish, mongolians, italians - NOONE Agrees with what is going on. The USA used to be THE most popular country in the world by a million miles - now I know Americans are hated the world over - the worst thing is that it is NOT their fault at all..the decision of a few has tainted 250 million people. If you think what I say has personal motivations against the US then you are mistaken (read my other 2000 posts here and you will see).

The rest of the world was holding their breath and praying that Bush didnt get voted in at the last US election and ANYONE outside the US will tell you that.

I DONT want to see payback for the US in 5 years from the rest of the world as they techniclogically catch up. But that is exactly what is going to happen according to the impression I get from people.

[gworld]

All those that think they can stay "out' of the debate as as bad as those that made that blacks sit on the back of busses - to me standing by is as commiting the crime itself.


I am sure in 20 years time when the debate is not as hot as today, the majority of American will say that they didn't know what was happening. The same as people in Nazi Germany or Americans when Japanese-Americans were arrested during WWII, during Joe McCarthy witch hunt against American citizens or Civil liberty violations against Blacks in South. Some of the same people who are quite today, will also later claim that they were fighting against it.

[e10]

I would have been willing to accept the shooting of this innocent man as a tragic mistake before all the other details came to light. I would have thought that if the intial report was true that any sane man who pumped 7 bullets into an innocent man's brain would have enough guilt to carry for the rest of his life.

Since the facts have come to light though, I wonder if this poor man was shot because of his TAN! How ridiculous is that? A brown-skinned man in the subway - OMG! Shoot the bugger! Perhaps somebody had to die in a hail of bloody bullets to ease the pressure? I doubt we will ever know.

Whatever happened, the fault does not really lie with the shooter. It is in poor co-ordination or poor management. But why don't you guys who are defending the shooting of Menendez see that? It is not a question of lynching the man who pulled the trigger but of finding out what went wrong and making sure it does not happen again.

[gworld]

I would have been willing to accept the shooting of this innocent man as a tragic mistake before all the other details came to light. I would have thought that if the intial report was true that any sane man who pumped 7 bullets into an innocent man's brain would have enough guilt to carry for the rest of his life.

Since the facts have come to light though, I wonder if this poor man was shot because of his TAN! How ridiculous is that? A brown-skinned man in the subway - OMG! Shoot the bugger! Perhaps somebody had to die in a hail of bloody bullets to ease the pressure? I doubt we will ever know.

Whatever happened, the fault does not really lie with the shooter. It is in poor co-ordination or poor management. But why don't you guys who are defending the shooting of Menendez see that? It is not a question of lynching the man who pulled the trigger but of finding out what went wrong and making sure it does not happen again.

Assuming that the officer in question is not a psychopath that just wanted to kill some one, I also feel sorry for him that he made a such a mistake, but mistake does not justify a killing. People make mistakes every day like having one too many drinks but when they kill some one as result then they are punished.
To do nothing and just ignore this case will send a wrong message to the society and justifies further terrorist actions when we show by our actions that is OK to kill a dark skin man but it is wrong to kill whites.
The best solution is to be open and honest about the whole thing, admit the mistakes and identify every one involved and send them to courts to be judged by the law and be punished fairly and according to the law.
Only by showing respect toward the law and advocating that all people independent of race, religion, political affiliation or if they are police or terrorist are equal in front of the law, we can send the right message.

[YianG]

I completely agree with the notion "mistake doesn't justify a killing," for obvious reasons: isn't the law system designed to prevent mistakes in the first place? The problem is that we are talking about two different kinds of mistakes here.

One mistake is the ones that is either done deliberately to sabotage the system for one's owe benefit or agenda, including killing for vengeance, or killing for vengeance.

Another kind of mistake would be a design flaw of the law system itself. Like how OJ Simpson got off the hook.

Now this cop in London business gets a bit complicated (for the discussion's sake, maybe), because it is stuck between the two categories above... or is it? Here are some of the clarifications I think we need, some definition on certain concepts.

1) One cop make a mistake doesn't mean the entire legal system is wrong.

I read a lot of the posts concerning how the commonwealth of England is supposedly being suppressed by the government because a policeman has killed an innocent man. Well, I don't see EVERY policeman in England starting any kind of killing spree yet, and I honestly doubt that would ever happen. Come on guys, don't panic.

2) The legal system is good doesn't mean all the cops are perfect, nor does it grant them the automatic rights to justify all of their actions.

Yes it is true that someone might have spoiled the soup quite a bit, and we need to recognize the fact that saying things such as "our laws are there to protect us so let the cops do their job" would be just as ridicules. It has become obvious that the policemen screwed up. I could be backing a car and hit a midget (how am I supposed to see him, really?), but the fact remains that he died not only because he stood there like an idiot, but also because I backed my car on him. And it is just as true that he would still be alive if I didn't back my car. Did he have to die? No. Was he dead? Yes. Then one of us got a problem.

Did the policeman shot that guy to death? Yes. Did he have to die? No. Not to mention this "execution style" thing I kept hearing about. Not only did this cop back without looking, some even suggested that he rammed the dude behind his car several times. and it might have been on purpose!


The moral is, don't lose faith of your government if you want to go through the crisis of terrorism, but keep an watchful eye on it. We all know very well that people on top of the pyramid tend to look at things differently, simply because they have a different, better or worse, view of the world. Plus they eat their food with one extra ingredient we usually lack: power. All these could have turned their head a little dizzy and they might not really know what they are doing. You could be doing yourself a big favor by supporting your government, unite under one banner when the need of fending these terrorists is dire, or you could throw yourself into a pit of trouble by helping your government making stupid laws and increase its power over everything because there is now an excuse.

The bottom line is: Stay in the middle. Cops are not evil, nor are the system. They are merely human. Give them credit for what they do, but have your eggs and tomatoes ready when they bashed the wrong guy.

[TommyD]

The moral is, don't lose faith of your government

My faith was lost in them, when they couldn't properly cover it up. I mean they had the lies doing their work (even discrediting the eye witnesses), but they forgot to distroy the physical evidence, (camera footage).

I'm guessing they will not make that mistake twice, but then I have no faith.

tom