What can you suggest to stop terror?

e10

Jul 22nd 2005, 7:08 am

I think the time will come where people will get so angry against Islam, so that a war can't be avoided.

And that would be a shame because for millions of true muslims terrorism is anathma and totally against everything they believe in. Jihad is not a holy war but an inner struggle to find their God.

Not that I am a muslim or anything else for that matter. I believe religions of all types have brought the world nothing but strife and bloodshed. And it is happening again.

Put an end to terrorism? Don´t look at the colour of your neighbour´s skin or care to which God they pray. Instead see how they love their children, take care of their elderly and care for each other. Don´t hate a whole race of people or all the followers of a religion. Weed out the extremists by all means but be prepared to re-educate their followers as has been done with some success in Yemen. http://discardedlies.com/entries/2005/02/a_theological_dialogue.php

Arnie

Jul 22nd 2005, 7:09 am

I honestly don't know what you are getting at so its problably best I don't participate in this thread. It seems to me you are suggesting something that I think is downright wrong.

Again, I may be misinterpreting your whole point so I will leave it at that

I'm not suggesting anything and are not meassuring on my own standards.
I try to figure out how the masses of people might react one day.

Crazy_Rob

Jul 22nd 2005, 7:11 am

I believe religions of all types have brought the world nothing but strife and bloodshed. And it is happening again.

That's exactly right.

focus3

Jul 22nd 2005, 7:16 am

I myself am not a strong believer. But religion has caused many wars. But it also brings people hope. Its just hard for me to imagine a world without religion I guess. So we cant get rid of it, and we dont know how to solve these problems either. Kinda makes you wish that some godly figure would come down and set things straight, eh?

mopacfan

Jul 22nd 2005, 7:23 am

Like John Lennon sung, "Imagine a world w/o religion..." What a different world this would be.

lorien1973

Jul 22nd 2005, 7:25 am

its not religion. its perversion of religion. huge difference.

uca

Jul 22nd 2005, 7:29 am

The solution is...

iskandar

Jul 22nd 2005, 7:39 am

The vast, vast majority aren't terrorists so people that "get angry at Islam" are just stupid.
100 % correct!
BTW I suggest this thread to be stopped. We are not doing anything useful here but plant hate and anger.

uca

Jul 22nd 2005, 7:46 am

BTW I suggest this thread to be stopped. We are not doing anything useful here but plant hate and anger.

Yep, you're right about stopping this thread.

I edited my post and I'm not postin anymore.

mopacfan

Jul 22nd 2005, 8:03 am

100 % correct!
BTW I suggest this thread to be stopped. We are not doing anything useful here but plant hate and anger.
Censorship certainly is not the answer. Discussion is exactly what we need, to bring issues to the fore and get them talked about.

tom22

Jul 22nd 2005, 8:05 am

A bigger problem is the non-extremist muslims won't deal with the extremists, so it almost encourages them to go blow stuff up. In the end, it almost has to be dealt with and eliminated within the community itself.

Umm.. says who?

e10

Jul 22nd 2005, 8:19 am

Yes I found that statement a bit of a stretch too. I do agree with the bit about the solution to the problem being within the community though - the whole community. You, me and and the Pakastani family down the street. It´s everybody´s problem.

GTech

Jul 22nd 2005, 8:57 am

Censorship certainly is not the answer. Discussion is exactly what we need, to bring issues to the fore and get them talked about.

Agreed. Censorship is not the answer, nor is trying to find moral equivalence in history to justify the problems of today. The "Iraq war" excuse is just an excuse. There need not be a reason for the attacks, and the attacks happened long before the Iraq war.

I also submit that repeating kitman (http://sixthcolumn.blogspot.com/2005/06/what-is-kitman.html) doesn't serve the issue at hand.

Though I rarely have agreed with Rob in the past, I think he hit the nail on the head. It cannot be stopped.

For those that do not know about the religion, I suggest reading the quran and finding the real truth in it's scriptures. Especially the surat. Once you start to read and learn, you'll see why it's happening.

"All" doesn't have to be a common denominator for people to recognize an ongoing problem. We often see "All muslims are not terrorists." Switch that sentence around a bit. All doesn't have to be the problem to realize who is committing the acts and how little it's condemned and how often we see people making excuses for the acts.

Arnie

Jul 23rd 2005, 1:02 am

Today the link's up again

A very interresting read from a world-wide well respected scientist -Haim Harari. I do agree with what he said. That speech was held in April but covers even the recent bombings in London.

http://www.worldthreats.com/middle_east/Haim%20Harari.htm

yo-yo

Jul 23rd 2005, 1:26 am

If every became atheist we wouldn't have this problem :D

On a more serious note - I believe that if several more attacks the same magnitude as the WTC (world trade center) go on, people will become enraged and extremely fearful.

What happens when man (or animal) become very fearful? It bites. I honestly think that if terrorism continues to grow, so will racism and prejudice towards the middle east and the islamic/muslim beliefs. In the end it may just cause the war of religions..

PS: I'm not saying that I want any of this to happen, just what i think could happen. And as some have pointed out... people's religious beliefs (taken out of context or not) have caused many wars and many deaths, and not just islam/muslim.. a good majority of it in the passed was catholic/christian.

How to stop it? End poverty. Make the world "fair" to every individual (unrealistic i know). For as long as their are people with nothing to lose, they will take extreme measures to be noticed.

nevetS

Jul 23rd 2005, 2:15 am

I was just thinking about putting up a website about this subject. It's a simple, cheap (comparitively) thing to do if you put any thought into it. Not quite as glorious as unleashing an army on a bunch of brown people though.

All you have to do is make them out to be the idiots that they are in the eyes of the world.

Blogmaster

Jul 23rd 2005, 2:22 am

Censorship certainly is not the answer. Discussion is exactly what we need, to bring issues to the fore and get them talked about.
Agree 100%. Let people voice their opinions and others can disagree as long as it's done in a civilized manner. All too often people try to shout each others down and that's not the way to go. But when someone feels that Islam and terror can be used in the same sentence, too many people use words such as "stupid" and "racist" without giving the poster a chance to explain. Political correctness is not solving problems and suppressing anyone's voice isn't either. We all seem to have some sort of bias somewhere, but when you make someone feel guilty for speaking his/her mind, you're taking away the opportunity for yourself to discuss something with someone who has the opinion many others have as well and you should never ignore the reasons people have for feeling how they do.

ViciousSummer

Jul 23rd 2005, 3:01 am

If every became atheist we wouldn't have this problem :DThat is absolutely correct. Sad but true. Anyone that hides behind "god" is a coward. Whether it be "God/Allah/Buddah told me to blow up the World Trade Center", or "I'm a devote Christian even though I have premarital sex. God says I can't but I do it any ways, but I confess everytime and God forgives me." Or, my favorite is the people that tell me that I am going to hell because I have not "accepted Jesus into my heart", but the sicko child molestors/murders rotting in prison are going to heaven "because he has accepted Jesus into his heart and he has been forgiven". Sweet! Have fun in heaven with all the sickos, I'm glad I'm not invited...haha. :rolleyes:

(Now, now...Don't get your holy panties in a bunch, people...You have your beliefs and I have mine. ;) )

But, if everyone was atheist, I'm sure we'd have an entirely different problem. Human nature just can't win...

p.s. (I'm not atheist by the way...I've developed my own beliefs about what exactly "god" is.)

Blogmaster

Jul 23rd 2005, 3:22 am

The vast, vast majority aren't terrorists so people that "get angry at Islam" are just stupid.
The question is not really how many are terrorists, but how many are behind the scenes encouraging terror.

But, if everyone was atheist, I'm sure we'd have an entirely different problem. Human nature just can't win...

This I definitely agree with.

wissam

Jul 23rd 2005, 3:27 am

I think the time will come where people will get so angry against Islam, so that a war can't be avoided.

Do you know that I am muslim and I am arabic ... we are not bad at all islam is good , I'm trying to stop the war my self
http://otaku.kylosa.com
so that was stupid lol
any way just want to tell that it's to stupid to blame a whole world for a few bad people , we are smarter then this , think before you talk next time ..

BasB

Jul 23rd 2005, 3:29 am

Hmmmm, i think it is just pure human greed and envy that triggers violence. 2nd WW: it looked like a religious thing, but it just happended that the masses had no money, and certain groups had. So that would be cycle one. The reply is pure hatred, because someone else put in the first blow. Cylce two.

I am Dutch and not even 100yrs ago we decided to colonilize some countries because the had stuff we hadnt. In the meantime killed a couple of the inhabitants along the way. Were we popular there? Duh.

So solution: take away reason for envy and reason for hatred. Make poverty history is a great start.

Personally i have no need for religion ;-) However, in the purest form most religions dont preach violence. It just interpretations by people to justify there own actions to others that cause the problems.

wissam

Jul 23rd 2005, 3:32 am

Whether it be "God/Allah/Buddah told me to blow up the World Trade Center", or "I'm a devote Christian even though I have premarital sex. God says I can't but I do it any ways, but I confess everytime and God forgives me." Or, my favorite is the people that tell me that I am going to hell because I have not "accepted Jesus into my heart", but the sicko child molestors/murders rotting in prison are going to heaven "because he has accepted Jesus into his heart and he has been forgiven"

Well ... I don't think the god said to us that we must blow up the World Trade Center , I think you must learn more about this , it's about a few bad people who use islam to hide , islam is not about killing people , is not about going to hell ..
take it from this point what if god even does not exist and we are saying those things just to feel that we are not alone in a huge dark space ...
it's about a bad humans a bad leader ....islam is not bad at all ...

Blogmaster

Jul 23rd 2005, 3:35 am

Personally i have no need for religion ;-) However, in the purest form most religions dont preach violence. It just interpretations by people to justify there own actions to others that cause the problems.
There are parts in the Quaran that encourage violence. In the Old Testament as well, but not the New Testament.

yo-yo

Jul 23rd 2005, 4:08 am

Here's a question for all of you, does society really want the horror to stop?

The media is nothing but a bunch of tragic stories 24/7. And do you know why? Because we gobble it up like it's chocolate going out of style.

Another thing - If the world had no bad and no evil (if you can even imagine that) then everything could only be "average"... without bad there cannot be good. Its 4 AM so maybe I'm not making sense... :)

Anyway.. I don't see any solution in our lifetimes happening... look who we have running our country for 8 years.. <cough>Thanks alot bible belt/midwest</cough>. Am i the only one who found it funny that bush can't even ride a bicycle without crashing it into the side walk? :D

mcfox

Jul 23rd 2005, 4:52 am

Gosh! No-one has yet mentioned www.infowars.com

Crazy_Rob

Jul 23rd 2005, 6:46 am

Here's a question for all of you, does society really want the horror to stop?

I think a better question is: "Does our government want the terror to stop?"

They seem to gain an awful lot from it. :mad:

GTech

Jul 23rd 2005, 8:49 am

Just a few?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/23/npoll23.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/23/ixnewstop.html

Solution: One step forward would be for those not *really* familiar with it to not make excuses for it, but rather study for themselves. Ask yourself the question: "If Islam isn't so bad at all, then why in the hell are they blowing up the world, oppressing women, denying women's rights, not condemning terrorists acts, preaching hatred in their mosques (and right here in the US as well), committing genocide in Darfur and chopping off heads in Thailand at an alarming rate?" In doing so, statements like "islam is not bad at all" will become obsolete. Don't except the kitman of "it's just a few that are hijacking the religion."

uca

Jul 23rd 2005, 9:03 am

Does our government want the terror to stop?

What's your government? maybe Iranian? Syrian?

Does the police want criminals to change life?

Do firemen want houses to be fireproof?

Do doctors want people to be 100% healthy?

In other words, that's not the point.

Saving nations from poverty is, as said, but how do you do that?
Throwing either money or bombs at them?

Probably neither.

Maybe the first target would be ignorance. Kill ignorance and you'll kill poverty.
Unfortunately they keep themselves poor and ignorant, so those people are easier to manipulate by a just few. And the easiest way is Islamism unless it evolves, such as Christianity did in the medieval age.

It's a long long way...

MELLA

Jul 23rd 2005, 9:06 am

Am i the only one who found it funny that bush can't even ride a bicycle without crashing it into the side walk? :D

No, I found that utterly hilarious too!! :D

mizt

Jul 23rd 2005, 9:12 am

I almost gave Yo-Yo a green rep, but sorry you got to stop the Bush bashing. If all the energy the world put towards not fighting the war on terror. If all the countries would unite and take an aggressive approach instead of wondering whos veto to use to block a movement in the UN and get rid of the attitude "its not my problem" we would minimize terrorism quickly. If the media would use all that reporting on Abu-grabui (sp?) and Gitmo and instead focus it on why we should stop the people wanting to but fear in the free world you would see much more public outrage and alot more countries getting some stuff done. I don't want my sons or daughter to live in fear, wondering if a sucide bomber is going t blow himself up in the movie theater. They should live in a free society thats not worried about extremist.

Here's a little off topic joke to ligthen things up:
In 2015, a Dad and his son where walking through NYC. The Dad said "Son, over there, the World Trade Centers use to stand."
The son replied "Dad, what where the WTC's?" .
Dad said "Well, son they where to huge nationally recognized Towers that the Muslims blew up in 2001 and sent our nation into war to end terrorism."
The son then asked "What's a Muslim?"

If tha joke offends you please disregard it. It was only a joke. Obvisouly we can't handle world policy in the above manner.

mizt

Jul 23rd 2005, 9:13 am

Now Mella is joining in on the Bush Bashing? I'm sure you never do anything stupid, just the President. ;)

Crazy_Rob

Jul 23rd 2005, 9:14 am

No, I found that utterly hilarious too!! :D

Is this something that just happened? Anyone have a video of it? :D

MELLA

Jul 23rd 2005, 9:23 am

Now Mella is joining in on the Bush Bashing?

I'm not bush bashing, I would have laughed if anyone had done it. I guess I have a warped SOH.

You have balls to post that joke btw...

mizt

Jul 23rd 2005, 2:17 pm

Thanks Mella for clearing that up.

Who ever just gave me red rep please let me know who you are atleast. "right back at cha!" Never gave anyone red red on this thread. Its all good ;)

yo-yo

Jul 23rd 2005, 3:11 pm

It's fine for you to disagree, but I'm an american and I have every right to dislike the guy thats fucking up my country, and the rest of the world.

Heres a couple questions....

1. Has Bush made the world a better place since he started?
2. Has American become more or less popular to the rest of the world since Bush started

I think both of those could easily be answered with a big fat NO. It's time for americans to stop letting the idiots in the white house do whatever they want just b/c they're scared of terrorism.

But we all need to ask ourselves if violence and violent acts towards other poeple are a part of human nature? We've been killing and slaving each other since as far back as time gos, now with the whole world reaching overpopulation you think it's going to get any better?

As we drain the world's last resources and we continue to multiply in huge numbers what do you think is going to happen??

The World's Population Has Doubled Since 1960 and by 2050 Human Population Will Likely Increase by 50%

Every 20 minutes, the human population grows by about 3,000. At the same time another plant or animal becomes extinct (27,000 each year).

The population of the U.S. tripled during the 20th century, but the U.S. consumption of raw materials increased 17-fold.

So what do you think is going to happen when it gets a little more crowded and more and more people don't have food to eat?

http://www.overpopulation.org/

Sandwalker

Jul 23rd 2005, 4:58 pm

This shouldn't become a religious debate, the original post asked what we can do about terrorism - nothing mentioned about religion. There's no such thing as a holy war.

It's been shown throughout history the people that start wars, terrorize, etc have their own agenda of either money or power. The religion they attach themselves to is simply to cover that up and enlist the support of those religious people.

Show me a warmonger or terrorist that doesn't have something to gain.

Blogmaster

Jul 23rd 2005, 5:06 pm

yo-yo

Jul 23rd 2005, 5:14 pm

This shouldn't become a religious debate, the original post asked what we can do about terrorism - nothing mentioned about religion. There's no such thing as a holy war.

It's not a religious debate, but how can you have a discussion about the underlying causes of terrorism without discussing religions? Show me a terrorist act that wasn't attached to a religious group? Even the guys that blow up abortion clinics and kill doctors all use their religious beliefs for motivation.

Show me a warmonger or terrorist that doesn't have something to gain.

What about the terrorist that blows himself up? What is he gaining (other than rewards he believes in afterlife)?

GTech

Jul 23rd 2005, 5:25 pm

It was, is and always has been the motivation ST. It also points out how some can inadvertantly support terror by appeasing those that are killing innocent Iraqis daily in Iraq. That some would say "pull out" and let the terrorists (not insurgents) win and go in and have their way, says a lot. It also shows how quickly a man that can kill a million of his own people in the most horrific of ways, can soon be forgotten.

Sandwalker, I disagree. There is a holy war going on and there is very much such a thing. It was declared in the mid-90s verbally against the US, but it's always been going on. It's just that no one on this side of the ocean took it very seriously. It's not limited to or about Iraq. It is about world domination of a single religion.

And then, they came after us.

Sandwalker

Jul 23rd 2005, 5:33 pm

It's not a religious debate, but how can you have a discussion about the underlying causes of terrorism without discussing religions? Show me a terrorist act that wasn't attached to a religious group? Even the guys that blow up abortion clinics and kill doctors all use their religious beliefs for motivation.

What about the terrorist that blows himself up? What is he gaining (other than rewards he believes in afterlife)?

That's what I mean, I don't think that religion really is the underlying cause. Did most Muslims cheer after 9/11? Do most Christians cheer after a bomb explodes at Planned Parenthood? No.

Most terrorists associate themselves with a religion as an excuse. Otherwise they would just be considered a crazy person, but with religion they have a "cause". The abortion clinic bombers are just as bad, and they associate themselves with Christianity usually. So why doesn't everyone associate Christians as being bombers as well? They're both crazy people, and do not have the blessing of either religion to do so.

The terrorist that blows himself up is usually brainwashed by an elder person of that group that stays alive to reap the benefits. They're the pawns, nothing more.

If Bin Laden believed so much in what they did on 9/11, why didn't he lead by example and blow himself up as well? The leaders of these organizations receive money and power - and do not blow themselves up. Muslims around the world condemned those actions.

Blogmaster

Jul 23rd 2005, 5:48 pm

Did most Muslims cheer after 9/11?
I don't know what most Muslims did after 9/11, but I remember footages of Paletinians cheering out in the streets. That was very disturbing to me.

Talkfreelance

Jul 23rd 2005, 5:58 pm

We wouldn't be in this situation if it wasn't for bush and blair, that simple.

Going to war in Iraq/Afganistran has cost so many lives and has put fear into the people of this nation.

Blogmaster

Jul 23rd 2005, 6:05 pm

We wouldn't be in this situation if it wasn't for bush and blair, that simple.

Going to war in Iraq/Afganistran has cost so many lives and has put fear into the people of this nation.
I personally look at the war from a different angle. I don't know what we will be able to accomplish with it short term speaking, but I think that long term we can make a difference. The next generation of Iraquis and Afghans will be able to choose who they want as their leader, what life they want to live and what opinions they like to express in public. A lot of the older citizens may not benefit as much as they are set in their ways.

One thing that bothers me a lot is comments such as "it's their way of life", "it's their religion" etc.

Oppression should not be tolerated anywhere. Human beings are born with a free will and should be able to exercise it. Many lives are taken on both sides, but don't you think that we will be able to prevent future dictators from taking charge and causing more atrocities if we do things right?

yo-yo

Jul 23rd 2005, 6:22 pm

That's what I mean, I don't think that religion really is the underlying cause. Did most Muslims cheer after 9/11? Do most Christians cheer after a bomb explodes at Planned Parenthood? No.

Yes. Some muslims and some christians do cheer after these events take place, but the majority, do not.

Most terrorists associate themselves with a religion as an excuse. Otherwise they would just be considered a crazy person, but with religion they have a "cause".

I have to disagree. Why would a guy blow up an abortion clinic UNLESS he was first fanatical about his religion? Religion is a very powerful thing, and whether it's meant to or not, it's a big cause of these problems. There's tons of crazy people out there, and the don't target abortion clinics, only the ones with religions...

If Bin Laden believed so much in what they did on 9/11, why didn't he lead by example and blow himself up as well? The leaders of these organizations receive money and power - and do not blow themselves up. Muslims around the world condemned those actions.

The same reason bush doesn't go fight on the front lines of the Iqaq war. Any organized cause needs a leader constantly motivating, recruiting and organizing. You think bin laden lives like a king? He lives under a rock.

yo-yo

Jul 23rd 2005, 6:25 pm

We wouldn't be in this situation if it wasn't for bush and blair, that simple.

I do believe 9/11 happened before bush and blair ever took over iraq.

It's not simple. If you want to really get into , we should be partly blaming ourselves for handing over the very weapons that these guys are using to kill us with.

WE supplied them weapons to fight with Russia b/c we didn't like Russia. We promised them all kinds of things and as soon as Russia was beat we turned our backs on them.

GTech

Jul 23rd 2005, 6:49 pm

We wouldn't be in this situation if it wasn't for bush and blair, that simple.

I don't think I'll ever understand narrow-minded statements like this. It's one of the very reasons I mentioned educating people in a previous comment. People can't be dhimmis forever. I'm sure *some* want to forget all the terrorist attacks our nation took in the 90s. I'm pretty sure these guys didn't know even know Bush or Blair. Apparently not, becuase they were sure motivated to blow up anything with a lung.

Some muslims and some christians do cheer after these events take place, but the majority, do not.

Actually, there was cheering throughout muslim countries and muslims right here in the USA. It was plastered all over the news. Lacking though, was the cheering of Christians. Do you have any sources for that statement? I entered the following into Google for:

"christians cheering" after 9/11
"christians cheering after 9/11"
"christians were cheering" after 9/11

we should be partly blaming ourselves for handing over the very weapons that these guys are using to kill us with.

No, we should not be blaming ourselves. As appealing as "blame america for everything" is to democrats, we are not blowing up the world nor are we encouraging it. The world changes constantly. We didn't agree to be their ally forever and they apparently never agreed to be our ally forever. We made a choice between the lesser of two evils at the time to end the world threat at the time. In terms of who was arming who, we can take a look at who armed Saddam over the years:

http://www.defendingliberty.com/iraqweapons.htm

mizt

Jul 23rd 2005, 7:05 pm

Gtech, I think he was speaking of some christians cheering after an Abortion Clinic or something is blown up. ;) Continue

Dominic

Jul 23rd 2005, 7:10 pm

If you could trust politicians (the ones with access to accurate info), then I believe we could all make more informed decisions on what action to take.

Fact is we only get told one take on part of the intel so as to help mould public opinion.

We need politicians that say 'this is what needs doing - if the voting public don't like it don't re-elect us. But it's the best course of action so we are doing it.'

letsmakeamillion

Jul 23rd 2005, 7:12 pm

My suggestion is to stop freaking talking about it all the time and go on with your life. The media blitz feeds the fire and the terrors passion.

Solicitors Mortgages

Jul 23rd 2005, 7:12 pm

<politely refusing to comment>

oh man,,,,move this thread to the private area, that or set me up an alias ID so i can comment too.

GTech

Jul 23rd 2005, 7:15 pm

Gtech, I think he was speaking of some christians cheering after an Abortion Clinic or something is blown up. ;) Continue

Could be. I may have mis-read the implication. Fortunately abortion clinic bombings are not threatening our country or the world.

Blogmaster

Jul 23rd 2005, 7:20 pm

<politely refusing to comment>

oh man,,,,move this thread to the private area, that or set me up an alias ID so i can comment too.
I feel your pain. It's tough to express yourself and not make enemies.

yo-yo

Jul 23rd 2005, 7:41 pm

Lacking though, was the cheering of Christians. Do you have any sources for that statement? I entered the following into Google for:

"christians cheering" after 9/11
"christians cheering after 9/11"
"christians were cheering" after 9/11

Mitz was correct, sorry for the confusion. I meant after other things, such as the abortion clinic bomings or abortion doctors being killed.

No, we should not be blaming ourselves. As appealing as "blame america for everything" is to democrats, we are not blowing up the world nor are we encouraging it.

I'm pretty sure (correct me if i'm wrong) we agreed to help afghanistan after they defeated Russia but instead we just left them in the dark...

Either way, you cannot say that America hasn't provoked any of this and that we are 100% innocent in the whole deal. Our forces have killed thousands of Iraqi's, women and children, and at least hundreds of Afghans. You can call them "casualties of war" or whatever, but if I was in the same situation and my child or wife was killed, I would be pretty pissed off myself.

I'm not however saying that it is all our fault, It's a huge combination of things, poverty, no education, murder, jealousy, religion, greed... they all play their own part in this.

GTech

Jul 23rd 2005, 8:10 pm

yo-yo, thanks for clarifying on the christians point.

We helped Afghanistan defeat the the Soviets with aid. That was our help. And we've helped many muslim nations. From the article in my signature:

We gave billions to Jordan, the Palestinians, and the Egyptians. Afghanistan was saved from the Soviets through U.S. aid. Kuwait was restored after Saddam’s annexation, and the holocaust of Bosnians and Kosovars halted by the American Air Force. Americans welcomed thousands of Arabs to our shores and allowed hundreds of madrassas and mosques to preach zealotry, anti-Semitism, and jihad without much scrutiny.

Muslims have killed far more than coalition troops in Iraq. The main difference being, we're not there to kill. The majority of deaths happened in the first part of the war when removing saddam from power. I note your outrage for those death. Oddly lacking is the outrage for the deaths committed DAILY and I mean DAILY by terrorists that want us to fail so they can come in from other countries and take over. While coalition troops work to help build Iraq up, building schools, helping locals, MUSLIMS from outside of Iraq are coming in and KILLING THEM. I may be wrong, but when's the last time we saw pictures of terrorists handing out candy to children? When's the last time we heard about terrorists building schools or adding electricity to areas that have not previously seen it?

What do we see terrorists doing? We see:

Oppressing women, as usual - http://www.washtimes.com/world/20041017-013506-9889r.htm

Killing kids - http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/07/13/suicide_car_bomb_kills_at_least_25_in_baghdad_1121248373/

What do Iraqis think? They are tired of the terrorists. The same people *some* WANT TO WIN, these people are tired of: http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/07/iraqis_march_ag.html

Who threatened the Iraq people when they wanted to vote? - muslim terrorists

So you tell me, who has their best interests at heart? Because the news I READ tells me that these terrorists are INDEED terrorizing Iraqis. Killing THEM daily. It is their intent. It is their goal. So while I understand your outrage over innocent death, perhaps directing some of it at those that are actually there to do, and are doing the killing, wouldn't hurt.

Arnie

Jul 24th 2005, 12:58 am

I can say NO. But then who was wrong?

I can think about UN, Germany, France which made the major mistakes. If all would have joined together there would(should) have been more troops to control and seal the borders and the cities/provinces in Iraq.
The bloodshed and loss of innocent lives could have been avoided. But none of the above mentioned was willing to walk the extra mile with a friend.

Try to figure out, if the USA and Britain would not have reacted to this developement in the middle east, how much more terrorism we would face by now...

What about Iran now? ... or Syria?
Iran's sheltering the terrorists from Thailands south and the Philipines.
Wow, and they want nuclear facilities for peaceful purposes? These are LIARS!!! ...endless lists ...

Don't get me wrong - I don't hate the people but the spirit behind them.

uca

Jul 24th 2005, 2:20 am

I was just wondering what would a thread like this be like in Saddam's Iraq.

Or maybe it would NOT have been allowed.

Mind you, most likely internet would have been banned or censored.

And also, if America is that bad (I'm not American) and someone is destroying it and making it worse and making all the countries in the world hate the US, why do thousands of people try to get in legally and illegally, day after day, and that doesn't happen in the best and richest Arab country?

Well someone built America, someone needs to defend America.
Luckily, America defends not only America but the whole western world, although I don't really know if France is included:) .

The Bush bashing helped him stay at the Whitehouse, thank you guys, keep going, it might help again, who knows?

Anyway, I didn't read many suggestions on what to do to fight terrorism!

Soccer fans know Inter Milan and they might know that they pulled out of 4 friendly games that were scheduled in England, with one in London.
Official excuse? Because security forces are already too busy to had more work for them (for what, guarding Inter Milan? Who cares?)
Cowards? Probably yes.
Consequence? Terrorism 1 - Inter Milan 0

(Oh, apparently if it was for the Champions league, that would have been a different story, but of course they're would have been more money involved...)

Come on London! Business as usual...

RectangleMan

Jul 24th 2005, 2:41 am

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 3:09 am

Religion or not there would still be great wars. It's more of human nature. It's funny cuz my wife was just talking about 3rd world war and who she thinks this is going to happen. I hope not to agree but things suggest otherwise.

Humans love to seperate each other my religious, race, money, creed or what have you. Wars have been fought for land, love, money or just ego. The next great war may very well start from religion but I think that's just a mask of other things. I am getting more concerned about oil prices, global poverty, and over population in some regions. We also have some odd things going on in countries with rogue regimes. Korea could start serious problems. You can't trust China either...I have thought for years that with a billion chineses neighboring a billion in india that one day they are gonna have to take each other out. It could be for any number of reasons why the next war starts and it's going to bloody when it does..whenever that is. The truth is that it will come and most likely in our lifetime.

Let's all just hope the aliens come and tell us how to love peacefully.

Well hehe aliens may not like us and then decide to blow us all up j/k

Religion is very powerful and much more so than money. If you are willing to die for something, you are willing to kill for it as well. Personally I believe that America is keeping a balance in this world that would not exist otherwise. Many here will disagree, but I don't care. Negotiations prevent wars, but sometimes words cannot do the job. I see a lot of criticism of our government, but I truly ignore it due to the lack of better solutions being presented. You can not ignore human nature or make it better than it is with "we should"s. People are selfish, point blank. Even though I am a Christian, I have endured the lectures of the Christian fundementalists and choose not to follow them. But I do see what is going on in the world today and what the book of Revelations predicts and believe that it is within God's will what is happening. I do expect to get bashed for this comment, but so be it. There are 1 Billion Muslims in this world and the arabic congress has been asked to vote on what is the most important issue in this world. The vote was casted towards the Israel - Palestinian issue.

Anyone who is denying corrolations here is in denial. I hope to continue this debate in peace, but what needs to be said needs to be said. This is not about judging or stereotyping, but saying what needs to be said.

Forget about Bush or whoever, let's look at the facts. Whatever you believe in will drive you.

mcfox

Jul 24th 2005, 3:38 am

The wars in the middle east are about strategic access to the oil fields. That's why Israel was chosen to be where it stands now after the second world war by the winning powers -- it's strategically placed in the region.

If there was no oil in the region, there would be no western intervention. Simple as that. The only reason Saudi Arabia hasn't been invaded is because they've rigged their oil and gas fields (http://hnn.us/articles/11858.html) to self destruct in the event of hostile forces entering the country.

So long as the region can be kept destabilised and Afghanistan held as a strategic block against land based movements from the Russia and China, then the oil will continue to flow westwards.

'Terrorism' is today's handy buzzword just as 'weapons of mass destruction' or 'wmds' was yesterday's.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.

Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

yo-yo

Jul 24th 2005, 4:38 am

The wars in the middle east are about strategic access to the oil fields......If there was no oil in the region, there would be no western intervention. Simple as that.

You're suggesting that after 9/11 we would have done nothing if there was no oil in the mid-east? We just sat around waiting for a big terrorist attack so a month later we could go over there for oil?

I'm not buying it.

wissam

Jul 24th 2005, 7:24 am

hahaha .... it's all about power...

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 8:12 am

(Some of this is to yfs1, some just general to the thread)
The vast, vast majority aren't terrorists so people that "get angry at Islam" are just stupid.

You may be right, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. Especially in Europe, look what the dutch did when van gogh was shot. If the muslim terrorists press it, there will be backlash for all muslims, I believe.

The Jews were innocent in Nazi Germany, but that did not prevent most of the populace from being complicit in their mistreatment in murder. And the Jews weren't even bombing things... I don't think it will take much more.

But you should look up the Hadith's and the Sunnah. I've known lots of really nice muslim people, who follow the traditions and everything in America... So don't take this as a blanket statement of "all muslims believe this"...

But in the Hadiths and Sunnah, there is much talk of genocide against the Jews, convert-or-die, murdering of infidels, forcing christians and jews to pay extra taxes for being infidels.

It's there, and those are some of the core writings of the religion.

But again, to be fair, look at the christian old testament, (some of which applies to Jews as well)... it is a violent, dark picture of life and man. Just as harsh as the hadiths and sunnah, however, we have found a way to incorporate it into democracy... but it has taken a very, very long time.

You can't force people to change their minds, but that's what needs to happen, a type of social revolution in the middle east, where they combine their religion with the concept of western freedom. Until that happens, we will always fight, like we have since the very beginning of Islam.

wissam

Jul 24th 2005, 8:15 am

I don't think so....
are you sure that you can't force people to change thier minds

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 8:17 am

The wars in the middle east are about strategic access to the oil fields. That's why Israel was chosen to be where it stands now after the second world war by the winning powers -- it's strategically placed in the region.

I think the jews who ran from europe back to their ancestral homeland to establish a country where they could be secure MIGHT disagree with you.

They were basically kept in british run camps until they were given their own state, and they had to fight basically all the Arab countries to keep it. I don't think anyone planned all that out.

If there was no oil in the region, there would be no western intervention. Simple as that. The only reason Saudi Arabia hasn't been invaded is because they've rigged their oil and gas fields (http://hnn.us/articles/11858.html) to self destruct in the event of hostile forces entering the country.

Plus, the House of Saud is always on the brink of losing the country to fanatics. I agree, if it weren't for the oil, we would have went straight for Saudi Arabia, not iraq.

'Terrorism' is today's handy buzzword just as 'weapons of mass destruction' or 'wmds' was yesterday's.

No, I think terrorism is a lot older and more stable than the word "WMD." It's been around for a long time, and it's quite apt. Of course, I think recently, it's about psychological terror as much as it is about economic terror.

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 8:19 am

I don't think so....
are you sure that you can't force people to change thier minds

Positive. If a man is willing to blow himself up for something he believes, than that force is more powerful than nature itself. His instinct to live, his reasoning ability, his sanity. You can never change that man's mind for him, only he could do it.

wissam

Jul 24th 2005, 8:24 am

I suggest to stop talking and start working ...

mate_pl

Jul 24th 2005, 8:51 am

Agree with wissam, maybe it will be good to add just one more thing. Americans get rid of Bush...

uca

Jul 24th 2005, 9:11 am

Agree with wissam, maybe it will be good to add just one more thing. Americans get rid of Bush...

WOW! That's exactly what the terrorists want! Do you realize you want the same thing? mmmmmmmmm, you're not a terrorist, are you?:eek:

Of course they want you dead as well, unless you're a muslim...

mate_pl

Jul 24th 2005, 9:25 am

i don't think that you're right. Believe me I'm the last person to say that terrorism is good. I'm not stupid and I'm not crazy. I can say that I'm looking from different position than people in USA.

Just look at some basic facts and I'll explain way I've written the above line...

After 9/11 Bush started the war in afghanistan and succeded in breaking the talibans. Well done. It should have been done. After that he attacked Iraq, captured Saddam, well done. But was Saddam really threat to USA? Or Osama bin laden? Saddam had OIL! let Iraqui people fight against Saddam, why should 20 year ols americans die in country that half of American didn't even know where it was? I just promote the opinion that shooting won't get any good to anyone, I live in a country which was in war 10 years ago and everyone know that it was totally unnecessary and totally stupid...

UCA, don't get me wrong, it's just my opinon from my point of view, war didn't get anything good to ordinary people EVER... Everything can be solved peacefully.

No, I'm not a muslim, but please try to read something about muslims. Not all of them are extremists. Believe me not even 5% of them are... Bosnia is just 20km from the place I live in, and there are about million muslims out there and I don't think they are threat to anyone...

uca

Jul 24th 2005, 10:07 am

Thats' better, mate_pl, your last post is a lot more reasonable than just another slogan against President Bush.

OK, they are not all terrorists, but it's within that culture, that terrorists breed. And that is possible with a religion that holds them back 150 years. Of course if you're 150 years in the past you can't understand, therefore you'll end up hating the others.

That's their problem: they just hate.

Bush has nothing to do with all that, he is reacting in a way most people approve, whether they admit it or not, as the latter is the easiest way because you might think that he will solve your problems because it's his problem in the first place and has the guts to deal with it.

France: the french thought it was right not to wage war, of course omitting that they had control of 70% of the Iraqi oil, so they didn't. Nor did the Germans, with most of the safest Iraqi bunkers built by German engineers, nor the Russians, main supplier of weapons. Still, they don't look as feeling safe from terrorism which is blind as much as such hate can be.
Those 3 more or less western countries deliberately let their companies violate the embargo which they agreed upon, but insisting to carry on and NOT remove Saddam. So who're Saddam's friends?
Not the Brits
Not the Americans
Not Blair
Not Bush

OK, now the Americans have control of Iraqi oil, but I'm sure that Iraqis are going to benefit more than before from that.

Osama will be captured but anyway he is not having a terribly good time. Still better than his followers, in that sense he is living the life of a king...of 150 years ago!

Please all terrorist supporters give me a bad reputation vote, please do, I would be proud of it.

Thanks mate_pl for being more accurate with your views, although I don't agree with you I respect your opinion. Just let me say that I am not American.

MELLA

Jul 24th 2005, 10:15 am

I don't really feel clever enough to even comment in this thread, but still..I agree with Mate_pl..People need to stop blaming 'muslims' (not necessarily aimed at anyone on here, but I know people in RL that have said things like ''not all Muslim's are terrorists...but all terrorists are muslim, and the like..) that's a rather bigot way to put them all into one catergory. They are using their religion, islam, in the wrong way. It's just what they have interpretted from what is written in the Koran. It doesn't mean it's right. They have twisted it and somehow justified it to themselves. Islam is actually a peaceful religion. They are taught to find inner peace, not to be violent towards others.

It happens in all religions, Christianity aswell. For example the war in Iraq. George Bush believes he was called by God to lead the nation at this time to go into war in Iraq, whilst the Pope opposed it because of the way HE himself understood the bible/christianity..

It's a really complicated thing, I'm not even gonna pretend to understand it, i'm just a dumb blonde..of course I have my own opinions ect, but It's hard to properly put them into words. But I have very much enjoyed reading this thread and all your opinions. Thanks.

uca

Jul 24th 2005, 10:32 am

Thank you for yours.

But let me just say that I am more against Islamism than muslims themselves.
But I don't think the problem is religion. As you said some use it to motivate others and as an excuse.

It's their historical culture. And we can't make them think differently after centuries.

The Pope is against violence, but he is also against poverty but lives in luxury...

He should represent Christ, but Jesus was poor...

Bush didn't think that, come on! When did he say that?
He is just the head of the world police, well sort of, as the US are the only ones at present that can fulfill that role, Saddam was obviously a criminal.
Anyways, there are other dangerous countries why are they not afraid, or are they of the US and friends (more parasites than friends, actually)

I hope nobody gets me wrong I love the idea of a multicutural society, but it's a problem if you hate each other (apart from inside a stadium during and nor after a match:) )

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 10:35 am

I suggest to stop talking and start working ...

It's not our job to convince men not to kill us. It is only our job to protect ourselves.

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 10:40 am

Islam is actually a peaceful religion. They are taught to find inner peace, not to be violent towards others.

It's really not. Not that I'm claiming christianity is either. But it's not.

Read the Hadiths and Sunnah, and how mohammad himself said the muslims would kill every jew on the planet, until they hid behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees called out "oh slave of allah, there is a jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."

That is not peaceful.

But I do believe Islam can be practiced peacefully, but they need a social revolution. Something drastic to adjust the way it is interpretted and bring them up to speed with Europe and the rest of the world. The problem is, they don't want it, the majority doesn't WANT it, or it would have happened.

We can only hope someone will rise within their own ranks, and show them the way to peace, they will never accept it from a foreigner, especially not through war.

mate_pl

Jul 24th 2005, 10:44 am

IMHO, president Clinton was a little cooler than the Bushes (senior started Desert storm to free Kuwait from Iraq). May I just ask one question? Why didn't he attack bosnian serbs after massacres in sarajevo? because there is no OIL in Bosnia... My point is that this isn't war against terrorism, it is just war for oil because we all know how much of it has left... There is nothing to do with us, with muslims or christians, it's all about oil...

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 10:52 am

Plenty of Americans went to bosnia, under the banner of the UN. And we kept troops there for years and years. So, that sort of invalidates your argument. Milosevic is on trial because of US/UN intervention. (Even though his party actually won in the elections, heh.)

And, you do realize we got oil from Iraq long before this war? So did France, Germany and Russia, although they traded a lot more than food for their oil.

(Also, Keep in mind, when someone says "UN intervention" or something to that effect, generally you are talking about a lot of US troops, equipment and money.)

mate_pl

Jul 24th 2005, 10:54 am

I still think I'm right, but it doesn't matter... what about srebrenica or vukovar (croatia). Believe me I know much much more about this stuff. I've lived through all this sh*t...

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 10:58 am

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 11:01 am

I suggest everyone take a look at this entire conflict through these eyes :

Describes the stuggle against the Jews :
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/jew/our_struggle_with_the_jews_is_a_struggle_for_existence.htm

Up-to-date reports from the Iraqi Resistance :
http://www.albasrah.net/moqawama/english/iraqi_resistance.htm

(their american casualties and killed are always much higher than reality, but it's interesting to see what their point of view is, and why they are doing what they are doing.)
Thank you! This is a quote from the first link on the bottom:

So the decisive battle in which the Jews will come to an end will most assuredly come to pass – it is inevitable. It will be a battle of Faith and a battle of servitude to Allaah. The Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: “You will indeed fight against the Jews and you will kill them to the point where the rock and the tree will say: ‘O Muslim! O ‘Abdullaah (slave of Allaah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.’ Except for al-Gharqad for it is from the trees of the Jews.”

While Wissam and others are trying to make it out to be us being after someone's oil, let's not forget what is written in the Quaran. I would like some comments on this one. But I bet now the "Let's stop talking" line will come in really handy, huh?

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 11:03 am

I still think I'm right, but it doesn't matter... what about srebrenica or vukovar (croatia). Believe me I know much much more about this stuff. I've lived through all this sh*t...

What's ironic is that we are expected to be the world's police when bad things happen... except when someone told you America was being selfish.

We tried milosevic and many others for srebrenica. The UN called it "genocide" which it was, christian serbs killing muslims croats.

We defended the croats in bosnia, and killed and put on trial many serbs. So, the question is, why are you complaining we didn't do enough there, but yet say we are doing too much when we remove saddam (who is similar to milosevic in the way he dealt with the kurds and shiites.)

Why is one not enough... and one too much?

I guess because one was oil and one doesn't? The only differences seem to be concocted by you.

Mia

Jul 24th 2005, 11:05 am

Today London, tomorrow Paris, Rome, Berlin...you name it. Terrorism has become a serious threat.

What can we do?

First read this speech from Haim Harari http://www.worldthreats.com/middle_east/Haim%20Harari.htm
Sorry this site is down at the moment, perhaps well have to wait for a while.

It's nothing new. Terrorism has always been a threat. The only real difference today is that the US and UK actually grew a pair of balls and are taking on the terrorist. This is something no one has ever done. It's gonna be around for a long time, but at least we are cracking down on it now.

When was the last time you saw a terrorist attack in the US??? 9/11. Hmmmm... Me thinks we finally grew a pair and are actually doing something. Best thing we can do is find the terrorists and kill them and those that support them (Atta's daddy) first!

There are more of us then there are of them. We are finally making progress!

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 11:10 am

sitetutor,

I think part of the problem, is anti-semitism has been huge in europe, I mean, as far back is 1860s, and probably much farther. I think they just shrug it off. It's amazing how many french synogogues have been burned and desecrated. You'd think WWII would have taught them something about irrational hatred.

The Saudis get on TV and talk in english about the evil extremists, and then they get on state TV, speak in arabic and say the jews blew up the WTC, and it's all a zionist plot to steal their oil... etc etc... it's really a nightmare that will last for centuries to come.

-----

BTW, my opinion is, this war is screwed up now, time to leave, close up the borders, and open them again when the world decides to be sane. And follow the clintonesque policies of quietly bombing the living hell out of anyone who poses a threat.

It's funny how anti-war folk love clinton so much. He called out the military more than any president in history, bombed Iraq on an almost daily basis for several years. Bombed any place in the world that posed a threat. But he did it very quiety, it's impressive really, that he got away with so much destruction in the eyes of these same people who call Bush a war-monger.

MELLA

Jul 24th 2005, 11:12 am

Bush didn't think that, come on! When did he say that?
He is just the head of the world police, well sort of, as the US are the only ones at present that can fulfill that role, Saddam was obviously a criminal.
Anyways, there are other dangerous countries why are they not afraid, or are they of the US and friends (more parasites than friends, actually)

It is actually quoted on many sites that George Bush believes he was called by God to lead the nation at this time..So I just added the into Iraq bit on the end. :D

But I do believe Islam can be practiced peacefully, but they need a social revolution. Something drastic to adjust the way it is interpretted and bring them up to speed with Europe and the rest of the world. The problem is, they don't want it, the majority doesn't WANT it, or it would have happened.

Yes, Sorry I mean it can be practised peacefully, and I was actually basing my opinions on personal experiences... Many of my close friends are Muslim, and are very into Islam and religion, and they practise it peacefully, and respectfully. And are just as opposed to all this terrorism as I am. But no, you're right - it is not about peace..Islam - like Christianity, Judaism, ect. - is not about peace. Yet, Nor is it about war. I suppose every religion is about absolute belief in its own superiority and the right to impose itself upon others.

But I agree they really need to bring them upto speed with Europe and the rest of the world. & As long as there are these religious extreamists, there is no way they'll be peace, the only way forward is the path of secular humanism, based upon the principles of logic and reason. This alone offers the hope of providing everybody on this globe with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

And I totally don't get the oil comment and imo this really has nothing to do with that whatsoever, but fair enough it is your opinion and everyone is entitled to that.

I, Brian

Jul 24th 2005, 11:13 am

So the decisive battle in which the Jews will come to an end will most assuredly come to pass – it is inevitable. It will be a battle of Faith and a battle of servitude to Allaah. The Prophet (sallAllaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: “You will indeed fight against the Jews and you will kill them to the point where the rock and the tree will say: ‘O Muslim! O ‘Abdullaah (slave of Allaah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.’ Except for al-Gharqad for it is from the trees of the Jews.”

I wouldn't mind a Sura cite for that, and if it's Hadith, I'd find it hard to reconcile with the Qur'an.

As for how to stop terror - maybe you can't, but you can always try not to fear. The creation of fear is the objective of terror. That's therefore the only place to defeat terror.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 11:15 am

I think part of the problem, is anti-semitism has been huge in europe, I mean, as far back is 1860s, and probably much farther. I think they just shrug it off. .
I hate to say it, but I do believe that to be 100% correct. I have experienced anti Semitism myself in Europe (France and Germany) and it seems to me that those 2 nations care less if Israel goes up in smoke. They also love to get everyone else involved to go against decisions that the UK and the US are making. It's all about Israel. The 2 most powerful nations support Israel and most of the rest of the worldx doesn't - that is IMO where the imbalance kicks in and why there won't be peace.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 11:26 am

The problem I see is that everytime we have a debate, we have representatives from all sides and someone who is Muslim will tell us how peaceful their religion is. No one ever wants to address what is written about jews and Christians. And how it is written. And how they stand on the issue. I hope the quotes will either stand for themselves or someone here can prove me wrong. I read what I read and see the hateful tone in which it is written. Trying to say "let's stop talking about it" or ignoring the topic won't bring any solutions to what is in the Quaran. I guess I'm out, this shit pisses me off.

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 11:29 am

I wouldn't mind a Sura cite for that, and if it's Hadith, I'd find it hard to reconcile with the Qur'an.

As for how to stop terror - maybe you can't, but you can always try not to fear. The creation of fear is the objective of terror. That's therefore the only place to defeat terror.

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6981:

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 178:

Narrated 'Amr bin Taghlib:

The Prophet said, "One of the portents of the Hour is that you will fight with people wearing shoes made of hair; and one of the portents of the Hour is that you will fight with broad-faced people whose faces will look like shields coated with leather."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 179:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces, and flat noses. Their faces will look like shields coated with leather. The Hour will not be established till you fight with people whose shoes are made of hair."

Like I say, you can pull similar things from the Bible. But Christianity has conformed to democracy. Exactly like Mella said, every religion feels it is superior and can force others to conform. At least in some point in their history, but democracy trumps religion in the west for the most part. It's totally opposite in the middle east, and probably will be for a long time.

In the US, we understand religious freedom, or we try to. And we try not to be biased against someone because of their religion. It's in our constitution and our laws. But in the middle east, religion trumps all, it is the ultimate. If God says kill someone, you kill them, and that is the law. There is no higher standard.

Instead of being a personal belief and choice, and you can only effect change within your own sphere, they see it as their duty to effect change on everyone in the entire world.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 11:30 am

Like I say, you can pull similar things from the Bible. .
In the Old Testament yes, but in the New Testament?

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 11:32 am

nddb

Jul 24th 2005, 11:33 am

In the Old Testament yes, but in the New Testament?

Probably not as much, I haven't looked very indepth. But it does indirectly say Jews go to hell, since they do not believe in salvation through christ.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 11:34 am

As for how to stop terror - maybe you can't, but you can always try not to fear. The creation of fear is the objective of terror. That's therefore the only place to defeat terror.
I agree, Brian! Being steadfast before evil. They don't have real power over us. Just the ability to kill like every human being has.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 11:36 am

Probably not as much, I haven't looked very indepth. But it does indirectly say Jews go to hell, since they do not believe in salvation through christ.
Right, but also calls upon Christians to support the children of Israel and let God be the judge at the end. And to pray for the salvation of the jews. And that in the end the Jews will get a last chance to come to Christ.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 11:50 am

Mia

Jul 24th 2005, 11:53 am

Sitetutor,

I doubt it's any consolation, but I talked to a guy once and asked him about these things. He said, "Allah knows the future, look at the way the Jews treat the palestinians, he knew this would happen. This is why this is written."

So, they see it as prophecy come to pass. I see it as a self-fulfilling prophecy, meant to galvanize Islam and continue it's spread through war. It's actually a brilliant strategy, if you are into keeping your religion spreading and stable.

A scapegoat always helps.

Without getting all theological here, The muslims hate the Jews for the same reason Hitler and many throughout the ages have. Because they are the chosen ones. They are the first to get into the gates of heaven when Christ returns. They hate that. Why, because it proves that their hatred killing ways (disguised as a religion) is not valid. It proves the Jews were here first and it bothers the living crap out of them.

IMHO Islam did not exist prior to 1948. I have looked for years to find any solid evidence that this made up religion actually existed prior to 48'. I have no respect for it and never will. To me it does not exist. It is about as valid as scientology. At least scientologists do not run around killing people in the name of a false god (allah).

Prior to 9/11 I never would have given this much thought nor would I have made statements like this. My apologies in advance to anyone I offend, but this is the way I feel, and will likely always feel. A religion that teaches hatred has no place in this world.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 12:07 pm

smindsrt

Jul 24th 2005, 12:17 pm

The only thing that will stop the violence is to exterminate all the terrorist.

MELLA

Jul 24th 2005, 12:21 pm

How? easier said than done. They are not bugs, we can't just put some poison down.

Mia

Jul 24th 2005, 12:33 pm

Mia

Jul 24th 2005, 12:36 pm

The only thing that will stop the violence is to exterminate all the terrorist.

Agreed, though this is easier said than done.

BTW, your avatar. Where did you get it?

I have a BHS year book and that picture is in it! I swear it is. I have to grab my old yearbooks from the office tomorrow and look, but I am pretty damn sure that avatar pic is from someone in my graduating class of 89'.

I, Brian

Jul 24th 2005, 12:37 pm

Thanks for the cite, nddb - will chase this up.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 12:40 pm

If being upset and running at the mouth about something I feel strongly about is construed as racist, I really do not know what to say. I do not think of Muslims as a "Race".

I like to think there is good in all people and never prejudge anyone, or at least like most of us, I try not to. .
Personally, I care less if it's Abdul from Beirut or Olaf from Sweden who blows stuff up. But when they do, I want to find out why. And when I see that there are such strong forces behind them, then those forces are where the answers lie.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 12:40 pm

Thanks for the cite, nddb - will chase this up.
Let us know :)

smindsrt

Jul 24th 2005, 12:55 pm

Agreed, though this is easier said than done.

BTW, your avatar. Where did you get it?

I have a BHS year book and that picture is in it! I swear it is. I have to grab my old yearbooks from the office tomorrow and look, but I am pretty damn sure that avatar pic is from someone in my graduating class of 89'.

Dude, that is me but I didn't go to school with you.

mate_pl

Jul 24th 2005, 4:44 pm

What's ironic is that we are expected to be the world's police when bad things happen... except when someone told you America was being selfish.

We tried milosevic and many others for srebrenica. The UN called it "genocide" which it was, christian serbs killing muslims croats.

believe me that I don't know ANY Croat who is muslim, and please inform yourself before you teach me what my name is. 8000 people killed in Srebrenica were all muslims killed by catholics Serbs (eastern "pravoslav" church is their religion). Muslims in Bosnia are called "Bosnjak". Croats are 99.5% roman catholics. The statement "muslims croats" speaks for itself.

We defended the croats in bosnia, and killed and put on trial many serbs. So, the question is, why are you complaining we didn't do enough there, but yet say we are doing too much when we remove saddam (who is similar to milosevic in the way he dealt with the kurds and shiites.)

Why is one not enough... and one too much?

you just keep talking rubbish. UN troops in Bosnia had a mission to keep peace not to fight, and they didn't kill anyone. They were allowed to shoot only if they were under direct attack. Saddam and Milosevic are not the same. Let say Milosevic is light version of Saddam :)

Trials? Many of Croats are also in Haag, not just Serbs...

Why do USA want Croatia to sign an agreement not to send Americans in Haag and on the other hand threats Croats that they have to send their own people on the same court?

I guess because one was oil and one doesn't? The only differences seem to be concocted by you.

I thing I said everything you needed to hear... My point is that Clinton was just much more fair than Bush and I think Bill Clinton could play this game much better... Remember, whole arguement started with Bush...

Mia

Jul 24th 2005, 5:15 pm

Dude, that is me but I didn't go to school with you.

I guess we all just looked like that in the 80's :) I swear there was a guy I went to high school with that looks just like that picture! I know I had hair down to my ass anyway.

MELLA

Jul 24th 2005, 5:21 pm

You look a bit like Slater hmm or Maybe screech, in Saved by the bell. :eek:

ferret77

Jul 24th 2005, 5:28 pm

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 6:35 pm

as soon as we supported Israel we became terrorist targets

I think 9/11 supposedly happened because we put thousands of troop in Saudi Arabia for the first gulf war.

If We stayed out of ththe middle east maybe we could have avoided some of this stuff
Right. That is the question whether we should support Israel or not, and it all pretty much evolves around that. I personally believe we should, but I know that many Americans differ in opinion there. I'm just happy that finally we come to the real reasons.

Mia

Jul 24th 2005, 6:40 pm

as soon as we supported Israel we became terrorist targets

I think 9/11 supposedly happened because we put thousands of troop in Saudi Arabia for the first gulf war.

If We stayed out of ththe middle east maybe we could have avoided some of this stuff

Support for Israel was pretty much mutual around the world because of the Olympic games masacre. This is usually considered the first "terrorist" attack that defined what we now see as modern day terrorism. It all started there with the PLO and people like Yassar Arafat.

I cannot see where having troops in a country (Saudi Arabia) that asked us to place troops in their country and asked us to help them could possibly have preciptated a terrorist attack on 9/11. I don't see any connection.

As far as staying out of the Middle East? Well France and others thought it would be nice to stay out of Poland and other places while Hitler was waging war, enslaving and killing millions of innocent people. Hell they all stayed out of it and just let the war come to them. By staying out of that conflict France became known as Occupied France.

The US stayed out of it too for quite some time. I'm personally kinda glad that the US DID NOT stay out of WWII. We'd all be speaking German or Japanese had they not.

Next time a good friend of yours is getting the preverbial crap kicked out of him because he looks different, just stay out of it. Let him get the crap kicked out of him. Good idea.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 7:20 pm

If we stopped supporting Israel, that IMO would be the worst thing we could possibly do.

ferret77

Jul 24th 2005, 7:29 pm

I cannot see where having troops in a country (Saudi Arabia) that asked us to place troops in their country and asked us to help them could possibly have preciptated a terrorist attack on 9/11. I don't see any connection.

I don't really see a connection either but that is one the big problems bin laden has with us

http://cfrterrorism.org/causes/saudiarabia.html

I am not really sure if there is a way we could support Israel , and not made enemies.

Jews in groups like the urgun committed some of first "terrorist" attacks against Arabs, not that this justifies anything but both side of that conflict have done terrible things to each other.

http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm.

For one of my electives when I was in college I took a class on the history and theory of the various terrorist movements.

but its kind of ignorant to think when you support someone's enemies with lots of weapons, that someone is going to be cool with you.

The idea that the US has just been minding your business all these years and from out of now where , the terrorist are after us because they hate our "freedom" is pretty far from the truth.

We liked that Islamic Extremists when they were on our side against the Russians, to them we are the same as the Russians and Iraqi is another Afghanistan. Hopefully they will not be able to stand against us becasue they don't have the outside support this time. Although, I think that as quickly as we can kill them, new recruits will stream across the border into iraqi.

As stated earlier in the thread, condemnation from other muslims my slow things down, but in a lot of areas people support them.

Just curious but do you think caused 911 or the embassy bombings before that?

ferret77

Jul 24th 2005, 7:37 pm

IMHO Islam did not exist prior to 1948. I have looked for years to find any solid evidence that this made up religion actually existed prior to 48'. I have no respect for it and never will. To me it does not exist. It is about as valid as scientology. At least scientologists do not run around killing people in the name of a false god (allah).

umm I am no history scholar but isn't Islam sort of old

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam

wikipedia says like 570 is when it started

Mia

Jul 24th 2005, 10:04 pm

As it is in its current incarnation and as far as Palestine is concerned as was mentioned earlier in this thread, prior to 1948, no to me, it did not exist.

I rank it up there with scientology on my list of valid religions that exist in the imaginations of the delusional.

nevetS

Jul 24th 2005, 11:14 pm

I thought we just gave a giant chunk of money to palestine to try and win them over.

Blogmaster

Jul 24th 2005, 11:23 pm

I thought we just gave a giant chunk of money to palestine to try and win them over.
IMO that doesn't help at all. They want the land that they consider theirs.

ferret77

Jul 25th 2005, 3:12 am

So you guys didn't answer , what do you think made bin laden deceide to attack us?

Blogmaster

Jul 25th 2005, 3:13 am

So you guys didn't answer , what do you think made bin laden deceide to attack us?
I don't know, what made Jeffrey Dahmer eat people? :)

uca

Jul 25th 2005, 3:13 am

The money was given to the wrong people.

Actually to the right people but they kept it for themselves and to bribe.

Bribe whom?

Arafat bribed every upcoming competitor for the place in power and kept the rest for himself and his supporters. That's how he stayed for so long. He also got money from fellow arab rich supporters, but the money went the same way.

NO MONEY for the stone throwers= Nothing to loose, all to gain (70 virgins in heaven) if they die for Palestine (or whatever they are brainwashed with)

And terrorism goes on, feeding itself in a vicious circle...

ferret77

Jul 25th 2005, 3:17 am

I don't know, what made Jeffrey Dahmer eat people?

So you think he is just a nut who pulled our name out of hat, just woke up one morning and said I think I will devote my life to attacking the US?

Blogmaster

Jul 25th 2005, 4:06 am

So you think he is just a nut who pulled our name out of hat, just woke up one morning and said I think I will devote my life to attacking the US?
I believe it was a mixture of things, probably a combination of personal anger towards the U.S. and something that he has learned from the Quaran referring to Jews and Christians the way it does which I imagine will leave a strong impact on someone learning those things as a child. I believe that the vast majority of muslims has some very bad feelings towards us no matter what, especially because we are supporting Israel. It doesn't take much to turn that into hatred. I personally believe that the guy who wrote the Quaran was a mental case. He married a 6 year old girl after all. He obviously got a kick out of dominating women and to this day it remains part of the culture within the muslim nations. I don't believe we have been doing a great job in the middle east, but does that justify mass murder? And do you think we should let someone decide who we can and cannot be friends with? I am not a big fan of organized religion, but do believe in supporting Israel. There is a lot of arrogance within our nation, but so is in every nation. Some of the posts in the first 3 pages of this thread were truly pathetic. Religion is what you believe in and are willing to die for. If you think that the US has done so wrong, look at the history of many European nations trying to make us out to be villains now. Look at the United Nations and its corrupt representatives. We only focus on our own screwups but in reality the world needs some serious fixing.The magnifying glass is pointed at us while others are being excused and overlooked for their wrong doings. Are we holding grudges against Germany and Japan? no. We have moved on. We are helping out wherever we can and all we ever get is criticism. I suggest visiting France and Germany to get a real taste of national arrogance and whatever else we are being accused of having. Since we are more powerful than them, of course we are being pointed at. If it wasn't for us helping out so much, what would have happened to Europe? imagine that. And what has lead to Israel being re-established in 1948? Blame should go where it belongs. What exactly have we done that is so horrible and so unforgivable that it allows all of that hatred? Were we not being threatened by the former Soviet Union and had to make some quick decisions? I just don't see where our mistakes add up to the justification for doing what has been done to us. We and the UK are trying our best while nations like France, Germany and Russia give a flying fuck about anyone but their own people and then have the nerve to point at us and project their own intentions upon us.

I know what you are going at, but I don't see that being close to a valid reason for Bin Ladin to do what he has done.

Mia

Jul 25th 2005, 6:54 am

So you guys didn't answer , what do you think made bin laden deceide to attack us?

How long is a piece of string?

If I had to guess? Reading the crayon (spelling) certainly did not help. He is full of hate for some reason, he is nuts and why not attack all that is good and peacefull. Who knows. Who cares. I have given up on trying to understand these people. It's like trying to get into the head of a serial killer. The man is sick, "mad" and hateful. Hell his own family knew he was bad news and kicked him out of the country. It's gotta tell you something when other muslims do not like that man.

Mia

Jul 25th 2005, 8:21 am

That's a first. Got a red make and no comment. I've had the reds with no sig attached, but not even a single comment to help me understand just where I went wrong? Oh dear, what shall I ever do? My guess is there are a lot of coppa agreement filed here prior to registration.

Arnie

Jul 25th 2005, 9:00 am

After that he attacked Iraq, captured Saddam, well done. But was Saddam really threat to USA? Or Osama bin laden? Saddam had OIL! let Iraqui people fight against Saddam, why should 20 year olds americans die in country that half of American didn't even know where it was?

You're missinformed about this subject.

Appart from Saddams killings of thousands of people every month in Iraq, there was another threat in the pot boiling which most of you might not know.

Saddams family organized a camp and trained its people to go West to "RedeemSaddam" - this was the name of the operation.
People were trained and prepared to go to Europe , America, Asia and other countries to kill.

Why do I know? - One of my Iraqi friends was working in the palace of Saddam directly under Udais command. For 6 month directly under Saddams command. He was staff there and Christian. Saddam employed only Christians (Armenian Catholic) He didn't trust any Moslims being near to him.
One day some of saddams politcal staff appeared at the staff's place and they were asked to join the camp. They all were briefly informed of the purpose which was "Redeeming Saddam". He refused to join.
Days later Udai personally told him that he will take away everthing what he owns. That was quite a lot, but he also figured out that his and the lifes of his familymembers were in danger. The whole family including realtives were then on an adventerous escape, fortunately successful.

In meanwhile all of the above is confirmed by several authorities in different countries through questioning many others wittneses. Details of this testimony would take to many pages here and its too horrible just to think of it.

Furthermore I learned a lot about Moslims through him. He always translated the conversations held at the next table when we went to some Arab restaurants and they were allmost all about an islamic force in the rest of the world, though not too serious most of the time but the seeds were planted.

gworld

Jul 25th 2005, 9:32 am

What are you people talking about? What has these killings to do with Mohammad or Jesus? All religions are more or less stupid since they were written for a time that has long passed and if you go through any of so called holy books, you can find enough texts to prove your point.

I understand that it is always nice to think of simple logic like blaming Islam for everything since it gives you a feeling of understanding and ables you to express opinion without too much work or use of brain as required by thinking about complex problems involved.

The facts are very simple but instead of acknowledging the needs for changes or our own faults, we go on this meaningless discussion about religion that has no end and no solution.

1- The western world economically dominates the rest of the world and this is the cause of poverty in most places. For example countries in Africa can only export raw coffee since if they put it in a box, we have so many custom duties on processed coffee that makes it impossible for people to drink it, this causes that these countries have to sell their raw product to production plants in western country and profit will be generated in our own countries. The same situation exits with oil. Raw oil for production, refinery in our own countries.

2- To keep this situation, we install corrupt governments to hold people in poverty and if people try to fight against these governments we provide the dictators with weapons and if all fails, we go in with military power and take over the country.

3- While some people from this poor countries get tired of being poor and miserable and getting shot and killed, others immigrate to our countries in search of better possibilities.

4- People who immigrate to west, after while notice that even they eat better now, they are considered a second class citizen in their new country and this is especially true about their children who are even born in west. For example in France the term Rat is synonym for a person from Algeria and it is even in the dictionary. Mean while France economy is dependent on immigrant worker from Algeria.

5- people both in the original country, especially young from middle class that are educated and know about the west and young people born in West but have parents from other countries start thinking that people from west are in no way better than them and start to fight the west with either fighting and shooting back in their own country or exploding a bomb in subway in London.

This is the problem and is got nothing with Islam or Christianity. Desperate people do desperate things. Black Panther in USA, IRA in Ireland (they did the last bombing before this in England), revolutionary movements in Mexico,....

Get your head out of the sand, the question is, are we ready to pay a fair price for these countries natural resources and let them to participate in economical development or keep fighting with them and cry foul when they shoot back?

Arnie

Jul 25th 2005, 9:48 am

I would like to see just one of the Islam supporters in this thread to comment on what has been quoted. I doubt that anyone will. They will run from the truth and come back when there is another thread about terror accusing everyone of being a racist who dares open his mouth about what he reads.

They can't. Just KISS it(keep it simply simple)

I did some search, I asked Moslims to point me to passages in their Qaran and they coudn't.

Whereas in the New Testament, "Love is the fullfillment of the law" and the law of love is a command as a base for all the other commandments.
In the Qaran it doesn't exist it is rather a recommondation there.

In the Qaran they mention the Messiah - as - they have the Messiah - pointing to Jews and Gentile Christians. They do admit about the Messiah but has nothing to do with them. Why? Who or what do they have? Satan? Yes, the spirit of Satan when its not the Messiah. Messiah means for everyone the same - The Annointed One.

Dear Moslims and fellow Christians remeber one thing

"Your were on his mind when he was on the cross" - especially this now for our Moslims here: He did everthing what needed to be done for our and your salvation. Also this why you can see help on the way when there are natural disasters and other problems etc.. and the help is coming from hearts of people who are joined together with a living God...

...I have searched about your history and Mohameds life and how he made himself a special messenger of God...He thought that he had a special mission to complete and thought of himself of being someone very special. Some even say that he had epilepsia, which makes people often believe to be someone very special.

Mohamed so its said from history, went to an old priest in a place which is now in Iraq to learn about the scriptures. After having all the information together he killed the priest, throwing him into a well and threw heavy stones after him to make sure that he's dead. He married a rich widow and became politically very influential (Medina) He changed the scriptures according to his likeness and fittings for his position because he had to.

Remember, - Islam started with murder and so it will end.

Arnie

Jul 25th 2005, 10:01 am

gworld

Jul 25th 2005, 10:12 am

Arnie

For some one who pretends to know about religions, may I suggest that at least you learn how to spell the name of follower of that religion, The spelling of their holly book name and the spelling of their prophet name.;)

All religions are more or less crazy but I don't believe that you have even read the bible, let alone other religious books, otherwise you would have noticed all the contradiction and hate that is in the bible.

Body is the vessel of our brain but unfortunately many in religious right absolutely refuse to use it and instead just repeat the simple, fantasy stories that gives a simple view of everything in the world.

GTech

Jul 25th 2005, 10:54 am

That's a first. Got a red make and no comment. I've had the reds with no sig attached, but not even a single comment to help me understand just where I went wrong?

There are some terrorist supporters on the board. Just like in real life, they hide behind the thread and attack with a red rep when no one is looking, because they can't contribute to the subject at hand :p

gworld

Jul 25th 2005, 11:40 am

There are some terrorist supporters on the board. Just like in real life, they hide behind the thread and attack with a red rep when no one is looking, because they can't contribute to the subject at hand :p

I always get red rep from DMOZ editors with no comment, do you mean they are terrorist too? :confused:

Get a grip on reality, while I consider most of your posts in these subjects some where between stupid and moronic and mia not far behind, I don't give you or anyone else red rep, because it is a stupid way of handling a discussion and got nothing to do with on which side of argument your are.:p

Blogmaster

Jul 25th 2005, 11:49 am

I always get red rep from DMOZ editors with no comment, do you mean they are terrorist too? :confused:

Coming to think of it ... you never know. Some of them might be heh

Blogmaster

Jul 25th 2005, 11:55 am

I always get red rep from DMOZ editors with no comment, do you mean they are terrorist too? :confused:

Get a grip on reality, while I consider most of your posts in these subjects some where between stupid and moronic and mia not far behind, I don't give you or anyone else red rep, because it is a stupid way of handling a discussion and got nothing to do with on which side of argument your are.:p
Gworld, I get it from your posts that you may not be religiously attached (I might be wrong though) and that therefor you don't relate to the motives. Not everything is as Logical as you try to make it out to be. You believe what you see and can relate to from your perspective. That IMO is where you don't see the issues for what they are. People will die for their believes. I would die for my beliefs as well, but I know that my beliefs do not include blowing up stuff in order to win God's grace.

gworld

Jul 25th 2005, 11:57 am

Coming to think of it ... you never know. Some of them might be heh

I agree, jimnoble can always bore you to death. At least they are not Muslim terrorists since they are having too much fun with their porn sites in DMOZ.:D

Blogmaster

Jul 25th 2005, 12:06 pm

I agree, jimnoble can always bore you to death. At least they are not Muslim terrorists since they are having too much fun with their porn sites in DMOZ.:D
I admire your dedication for whatever you believe to be true. But with all due respect, I think that you don't realize the power of motivation that people draw from what they believe in. I do believe that the factor of oil and money does weigh in, but only to a certain extent. When the Arabic Congress was asked to vote on the most important issue in the world and they named the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, that has nothing to do with money. It is way deeper than that. At the end of the day we are all left alone with our thoughts and feeling regardless of what our financial gain is, and whatever drives us will determine our actions. Religion is powerful. There is no easy way out of this situation. I think that religious believes are the key to terror. If you believe it is Allah's will to go against Jews and Christians and that your reward will come in heaven, that IMO is exactly what will help them overcome their common sense, get into an airplane, hijack it, and blow themselves up with as many Americans and/or jews as they can.

uca

Jul 25th 2005, 3:04 pm

So what do you guys suggest exactly?

1) what should other people, nations, governments do?

2) what should we, DP members, do?

After all this is the topic...

mcfox

Jul 25th 2005, 3:10 pm

It's all about power.

e10

Jul 25th 2005, 3:14 pm

Yes, well...

I draw motivation from what I believe in. Treat people as you would like to be treated yourself. Don´t judge people by their skin colour or religion. If you need to commune with your God, a big open field and a blue sky will do just as well as a cathedral. Your beliefs are as valid as mine and I respect your right to have them.

Don´t touch my children or my family or I will hunt YOU down personally and flay the skin off your flesh then feed your flesh to scorpions, rats and whatever pit bulls are left in Denver. BUT I will not blame your race, religion or colour of knickers for you being a sad, misguided and crazy individual.

Henny

Jul 25th 2005, 3:44 pm

Shoot them before they shoot us.

e10

Jul 25th 2005, 4:06 pm

Shoot them before they shoot us.

Oh bugger off. Them! What does that mean?

All you self righteous we-are-Christian-and-we-know-the-way geezers piss me off. Even worse when it is we-are-American-and-we-are-Christian. What the hell do you know?

If your father, mother, or baby sister dies in a bomb explosion you grow up hating the perpetrators. If your land is taken from you by an oppressing country, you grow up hating that country. If your father died in Vietnam - who do you hate? The Vietnamese - or your government for sending your father (grandfather) on a useless war?

We are all pawns, people. And when money, oil or resources are at stake, we will never know the truth. Stop! The only way it will ever stop (if you really want it to) is by integrating, by trying to understand the other person´s point of view.

Note: I am not saying that those who lost family in 9/11 don´t have a reason to hate, to hurt and to want restitution. Of course they do. Of course the kids in Ireland who grow up on one side or the other have reason to hate and to want revenge. It is all so tragic and an endless circle. You killed my father, I´ll kill yours. Hate feeds on itself.

Step back. Take one mf/ing deep breath. And look at what politics are doing to us. Even here on DP.

I love the internet because it is faceless, raceless, 100% equal. Do you see that little girl up there in my avatar? Going by what half of you say here you would have her exterminated. Her dad is Morrocan. So, bloody what?

mate_pl

Jul 25th 2005, 4:22 pm

@arnie - you missed my point, i really know what saddam did but that was far away from what i was talking about...

@e10 - you said it all... i agree all that you said. i'll give one plain example. croats were in war with serbs because they attacked our country (just 10 years ago). should I, as croat, hate my future wife just because she was born as serb? how can i date person who's country fought with mine? I really don't care about this bullshit (excuse my french :)). same thing you can say for americans and "muslims" or "catholics" and "muslims"...

Mia

Jul 25th 2005, 4:44 pm

Oh bugger off. Them! What does that mean?

All you self righteous we-are-Christian-and-we-know-the-way geezers piss me off. Even worse when it is we-are-American-and-we-are-Christian. What the hell do you know?

If your father, mother, or baby sister dies in a bomb explosion you grow up hating the perpetrators. If your land is taken from you by an oppressing country, you grow up hating that country. If your father died in Vietnam - who do you hate? The Vietnamese - or your government for sending your father (grandfather) on a useless war?

We are all pawns, people. And when money, oil or resources are at stake, we will never know the truth. Stop! The only way it will ever stop (if you really want it to) is by integrating, by trying to understand the other person´s point of view.

Note: I am not saying that those who lost family in 9/11 don´t have a reason to hate, to hurt and to want restitution. Of course they do. Of course the kids in Ireland who grow up on one side or the other have reason to hate and to want revenge. It is all so tragic and an endless circle. You killed my father, I´ll kill yours. Hate feeds on itself.

Step back. Take one mf/ing deep breath. And look at what politics are doing to us. Even here on DP.

I love the internet because it is faceless, raceless, 100% equal. Do you see that little girl up there in my avatar? Going by what half of you say here you would have her exterminated. Her dad is Morrocan. So, bloody what?

What? .................

e10

Jul 25th 2005, 5:00 pm

mia,

I am not going to argue with you. If you don´t understand what I said, that is okay. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. I won´t be back in this thread to justify what I said. I don´t think it needs any explanation or justification. Go back and read it again if you are confused.

Mia

Jul 25th 2005, 5:15 pm

There is nothing to argue about. No, I really do not understand what you were attempting to say. My opinion has nothing to do with anything when I cannot understand what your point is :)

No, no justification or explanation needed. Perhaps some clarification though. I'm not confused, I'm just concerned about all the baseless assumptions that are made, ie., "Self righteous we-are... blah, blah, blah.

My apologies, the post just did not make any sense to me. Perhaps I need to have a stiff drink first. I think I'll go do that now.

MELLA

Jul 25th 2005, 5:15 pm

ha ha I knew there was a reason I loved this woman. What a speech Jules!

Her dad is Morrocan.

Aw really, that's so cool! She's blummin' adorable by the way!

Henny

Jul 25th 2005, 5:27 pm

Hehehehehe, E10, you sure read a lot into my post, LMAO. THEM=TERRORIST FYI I am agnostic....

Blogmaster

Jul 25th 2005, 6:23 pm

Hehehehehe, E10, you sure read a lot into my post, LMAO.
It always comes back to that in threads like these.

Henny

Jul 25th 2005, 7:27 pm

Shhessss talk about sensitive, I know not all muslims are bombers, just because all bombers are muslim doesnt mean anything.

Blogmaster

Jul 25th 2005, 7:33 pm

Shhessss talk about sensitive, I know not all muslims are bombers, just because all bombers are muslim doesnt mean anything.
lol GTech said something similar the other day, but he said most and not all. get ready for some heat in here :)

Mia

Jul 25th 2005, 7:48 pm

Shhessss talk about sensitive, I know not all muslims are bombers, just because all bombers are muslim doesnt mean anything.

Agreed. But sometimes it seems like those that do not, are supportive of those that do. I think that is what really bothers a lot of people here.

gworld

Jul 25th 2005, 7:58 pm

Shhessss talk about sensitive, I know not all muslims are bombers, just because all bombers are muslim doesnt mean anything.

http://www.absolutecelebrities.com/i/mugshot/McVeighTimothy.jpg

Just another Muslim bomber, Timothy McVeigh

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/02/06/69/image_69062.jpg

And another Muslim bomber, Eric Rudolph

Crazy_Rob

Jul 25th 2005, 8:04 pm

Agreed. But sometimes it seems like those that do not, are supportive of those that do. I think that is what really bothers a lot of people here.

We're supporting the deaths of quite a few innocent women and children.

Some findings from the Oxford Research Group:
http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/0719-01.htm

Findings include:

Who was killed?

* 24,865 civilians were reported killed in the first two years.
* Women and children accounted for almost 20% of all civilian deaths.
* Baghdad alone recorded almost half of all deaths.

When did they die?

* 30% of civilian deaths occurred during the invasion phase before 1 May 2003.
* Post-invasion, the number of civilians killed was almost twice as high in year two (11,351) as in year one (6,215).

Who did the killing?

* US-led forces killed 37% of civilian victims.
* Anti-occupation forces/insurgents killed 9% of civilian victims.
* Post-invasion criminal violence accounted for 36% of all deaths.
* Killings by anti-occupation forces, crime and unknown agents have shown a steady rise over the entire period.

What was the most lethal weaponry?

* Over half (53%) of all civilian deaths involved explosive devices.
* Air strikes caused most (64%) of the explosives deaths.
* Children were disproportionately affected by all explosive devices but most severely by air strikes and unexploded ordnance (including cluster bomblets).

How many were injured?

* At least 42,500 civilians were reported wounded.
* The invasion phase caused 41% of all reported injuries.
* Explosive weaponry caused a higher ratio of injuries to deaths than small arms.
* The highest wounded-to-death ratio incidents occurred during the invasion phase.

Who provided the information?

* Mortuary officials and medics were the most frequently cited witnesses.
* Three press agencies provided over one third of the reports used.
* Iraqi journalists are increasingly central to the reporting work.

Mia

Jul 25th 2005, 8:51 pm

We're supporting the deaths of quite a few innocent women and children.

Some findings from the Oxford Research Group:
http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/0719-01.htm

After 9/11, I really do not care.

GTech

Jul 25th 2005, 9:03 pm

gworld, I have every reason to believe you think my posts are idiotic. I had no preconceived notion you would think otherwise.

If you go back and read my posts, I back up my assertions with sources. You may not like the sources, you may not appreciate those sources being revealed, but I believe it is important to look at the motivating and driving factors that represent problems, rather than pretend they don't exist or hunting down some moral equivalence to relate them to. There are some that simply just don't get it. Then there are some that know, but pretend not to. Right? As I said in another post, at another time, I've never seen anyone "claim" to not believe in God (perhaps you call yours by a different name?) so adamantly opposed to Israel and Jews in general.

There is great line between hatred and being aware. It is acceptable to be aware of what is going on. It is acceptable to back up things that are going on with references that support them.

The acts, in the references (links) I post are the hatred. Being aware of them, discussing them and recognizing them is not hatred. There is a difference. To suggest these things happen because of poverty, or put them off on oil or other such nonsense is just that. It's nonsense.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1552099,00.html

A brand new Mercedes? http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050714-090938-7384r

This is a religious ideology. The scriptures are there. They are used to incite hatred. You may not wish it to be revealed, but it is true. Let us not cast our visions and illusions to a blind eye.

There are countries througout the world that endure poverty and are not muslim dominant. Yet we do not see other religions conducting these attrocities on a daily basis. We do not see Christians in Thailand decapitating muslims, but we see the opposite. We do not see Christians and Jews committing genocide in Darfur, but the opposite. If it's about poverty, then why are other religions not taking these measures. Perhaps because there is a difference in the religious ideologies? Maybe? Could be?

OKC Bombing - http://www.jaynadavis.com Let's not be too quick to dismiss the islamic connection behind the tragedy.

Arnie

Jul 26th 2005, 1:56 am

While we're discussing, Iran's bought and is buying material for making the nuclear bomb.

300 units of nickel 63 aquired with codename "Parto Namaje Tolua"
This radioactive material sends electrons and is used in atom bomb fuzes.
However the isotope portion (15mCi), requested by Teheran, - it requires a transport in particularly protected containers - is much too high - as to be used for other purposes than the nuclear bomb. Strange is also, under which secrecy the business was completed.

The second business concerns so-called tritium target. They are used in neutron sources, with which the nuclear chain reaction in atom bombs can be released. Such targets belong to the so-called dual Use products, which fulfill civilian like weapon-technology functions.

uca

Jul 26th 2005, 2:45 am

I would have way too many things to say that I won't say anything here, I'll let some facts, just a quick article, speak for me:

Murder in the name of Allah (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4716909.stm)

Blogmaster

Jul 26th 2005, 2:55 am

Thank you, it's mindboggling to me how anyone can accuse someone of racism for trying to examine the underlying issues and motivations leading to those attacks.

uca

Jul 26th 2005, 3:10 am

Sorry, I'm back already!

have a look @ this (http://tftb.com/deify/defeat.htm)

and @ gworld,

it would take me seconds to find pictures of a bunch of islamic murderers (New York, Madrid, London, Sharm, how long did it take you to find 3 Americans? I beg your pardon, only 2 actually...

and read this:

The word 'terrorism' entered into European languages in the wake of the French revolution of 1789. In the early revolutionary years, it was largely by violence that governments in Paris tried to impose their radical new order on a reluctant citizenry. As a result, the first meaning of the word 'terrorism', as recorded by the Académie Française in 1798, was 'system or rule of terror'.

So it was invented by the French?!?!:rolleyes:

Blogmaster

Jul 26th 2005, 3:16 am

I am thankful for the job our government is doing. It is easy to sit back, chill out and critizice the work of others.

ferret77

Jul 26th 2005, 4:56 am

After 9/11, I really do not care.

You do not care about how many woman and children who are accidently killed. In a country that had nothing to do with 911.

Is that what you tell your kids? Its ok to kill innocent non-white people, because some other non-white people killed some of our people first.

ferret77

Jul 26th 2005, 5:03 am

I am thankful for the job our government is doing. It is easy to sit back, chill out and critizice the work of others.

Its also easy to sit back, not know much wave a flag and be a shill

until I questioned you guys , you guys didn't even seem to know what Ladens supposed reasons fro attacking us.

Henny

Jul 26th 2005, 5:45 am

Its also easy to sit back, not know much wave a flag and be a shill

until I questioned you guys , you guys didn't even seem to know what Ladens supposed reasons fro attacking us.

I really dont give a flying F*** what his reason for attacking us was. I want him and everyone who supports him at room temperature asap.

yfs1

Jul 26th 2005, 6:00 am

Is that a John Kerry quote? (Seeing how thats your avatar :p )

Henny

Jul 26th 2005, 6:23 am

No, John Kerry would want to hold "Listening sessions" with UBL and Saddam.

Arnie

Jul 26th 2005, 6:29 am

Sorry, I'm back already!

have a look @ this (http://tftb.com/deify/defeat.htm)

GET NAKED TO FIGHT TERRORISTS! No, this isn't some weird ancient Celtic Woad Warrior suggestion - From someone named Judith Page, passed on to me by my friend Belle - "The President has asked that we unite for a common cause. Since the hard line Islamic people can not stand nudity, and consider it a sin to see a naked woman that is not their wife, tonight at 7:00, all women should run out of their house naked to help weed out the terrorists. The United States

Hahaha, but so true. The Talibans must kill themselves if they see any naked woman except their wifes.
What about the Taliban Women to walk around in their neighborhood tomorrow morning - naked of course...that would solve a lot of problems...

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 6:32 am

You do not care about how many woman and children who are accidently killed. In a country that had nothing to do with 911.

Is that what you tell your kids? Its ok to kill innocent non-white people, because some other non-white people killed some of our people first.

You do realize we are at war, right? Did you forget that?

What the hell is a "non-white" person? Are we playing the race card again? No, I tell my kid it is ok to defend freedom against terrorists. They come in many different flavors. "Non-White", you are hillarious. Muslim is not a race my friend. It is no more a "race" than being an "American".

Iraq had everything to do with the motivation and support of terror, which includes 9/11. We are at war, remember? A lot of people seem to forget that.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 6:34 am

Its also easy to sit back, not know much wave a flag and be a shill

until I questioned you guys , you guys didn't even seem to know what Ladens supposed reasons fro attacking us.

And you do?

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 6:40 am

Hahaha, but so true. The Talibans must kill themselves if they see any naked woman except their wifes.
What about the Taliban Women to walk around in their neighborhood tomorrow morning - naked of course...that would solve a lot of problems...

It amazes me how this supposed religion can spout such high moral melodrama as to suggest not looking at any other naked women than your own wife, yet treats their own wives like complete and utter shit, then in the same breath condones killing those of other faiths.

Something tells me the flip flop nature of the crayon (spelling) ought to make a nice hand book for the DNC.

(flame on)

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 6:44 am

...then in the same breath condones killing those of other faiths.

Hey, so do you! ;)

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 6:48 am

Hey, so do you! ;)

Really? When did I do that?

You do realize we are at war? Stop whinning. It's a war man!

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 7:08 am

You should try leaving Wisconsin once in a while. There are actually decent people all over the world.

You might become less angry and more tolerant of other people's beliefs and practices.

:)

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 7:28 am

You should try leaving Wisconsin once in a while. There are actually decent people all over the world.

You might become less angry and more tolerant of other people's beliefs and practices.

:)

I'm not from Wisconsin orginally. I have been to all 50 States with the exception of Alaska and Hawaii. I have been to Italy, France, England, Scotland, Ireland and St. Lucia. Most of my Family is from Italy and Germany, interesting mix.

Rob, I'm not angry. And no, I am not going to be tolerant of terrorists beliefs. It is your type of ideology that relies on complacancy that got us into trouble here in the first place.

You do know about the war right? There is a war going on. "beliefs and practices", you mean blowing people up, spreading hatred. Oh yeah Rob, I'm gonna be real tolerant of that.

Sorry, you really do not have to "get out more" to realize that people who kill in the name of a false god have no place on this earth with people who are peacful and doing nothing other than trying to breath free air.

Henny

Jul 26th 2005, 7:30 am

Arnie

Jul 26th 2005, 7:37 am

You might become less angry and more tolerant of other people's beliefs and practices.
:)

What tolerance you're talking about?:confused:

I have two Iranians(actually three with the baby) here which converted recently to Christianity. Both come from rich families. They had to escape Iran and are living now under refugee status with a very little support from the UN.

They are not able to go back. Their parents said if they would change to Islam again they might return, but if not, they will be killed as soon as they attempt to enter Iranian territory, slaughtered right at the airport and no authorities would go against that.
The young woman replied: Islamists are animals and that she would under no circumstances return to Islam and rather die before become a Moslim again.
Yes, they are happier amidst the material problems they face for this time.

Pray for them that they may not lose their faith.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 7:38 am

Hey now, I am in Wisconsin too, We have to put up with more than our fair share of liberals up here dammit :D Also, I am not angry, I am perfectly happy! We are kicking ass and taking names, Bush is president, Roberts is about to be named to the supreme court, what.... ME ANGRY??? HAHAHAHAHAHHA, I am delighted!

And I love it here! I moved here almost 20 years ago and love it. I love freedom. I love the fact that I have always been able to park my car in front of my house with the doors unlocked. Sometimes with the keys in it. I'd kinda like to keep that freedom here.

Just a little factoid. Wisconsin is the birth place of the Republican party. Now if we can just get Doyle out next time around :)

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 8:07 am

What tolerance you're talking about?:confused:

I have two Iranians(actually three with the baby) here which converted recently to Christianity. Both come from rich families. They had to escape Iran and are living now under refugee status with a very little support from the UN.

They are not able to go back. Their parents said if they would change to Islam again they might return, but if not, they will be killed as soon as they attempt to enter Iranian territory, slaughtered right at the airport and no authorities would go against that.
The young woman replied: Islamists are animals and that she would under no circumstances return to Islam and rather die before become a Moslim again.
Yes, they are happier amidst the material problems they face for this time.

Pray for them that they may not lose their faith.

What does that have to do with anything I've said? :confused:

"beliefs and practices", you mean blowing people up, spreading hatred.

That's exactly what we're doing. Only we call it "spreading democracy."

Do you really think that by invading Iraq we've intimidated Muslims into accepting Israel's expansion for a greater homeland? Or do you think it's filled them with anger and frustration?

If your family was in their beds sleeping and a bomb was dropped on their heads, would you be angry?

I realize that there are TWO faces of Islam and that many muslim teachers are spreading hatred of the Infidel West. But that's no different than what many Christians are doing here.

It is your type of ideology that relies on complacancy that got us into trouble here in the first place.

So they hijacked airplanes and killed thousands because of people like me?

PS: I love Wisconsin! ;)

debunked

Jul 26th 2005, 8:20 am

Rob, I have to ask where you get this from
Do you really think that by invading Iraq we've intimidated Muslims into accepting Israel's expansion for a greater homeland? Or do you think it's filled them with anger and frustration?

You aren't talking to A/C are you? This is stuff that the white suppremist or islamic terrorists would like everyone to agree with. I say kick all the palistinians back out to their original countries (ask them where they are from - search family trees to see what I mean) and let Israel have they land back - all of it....

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 8:24 am

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 8:37 am

Really? When did I do that?

You do realize we are at war? Stop whinning. It's a war man!

What war are you talking about? The war against Iraq officially ended 2 years ago.

Who are we at war with? If we are at war, does this mean that prisoners in Guantanamo bay are POW and we are breaking the Geneva convention?

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 8:43 am

Rob, I have to ask where you get this from

You aren't talking to A/C are you? This is stuff that the white suppremist or islamic terrorists would like everyone to agree with. I say kick all the palistinians back out to their original countries (ask them where they are from - search family trees to see what I mean) and let Israel have they land back - all of it....

If there was a prize for stupid posting, this would have won the first prize. Israel did not exist until after the WWII, so the present Israel belonged to the Arab population but your sentence makes sense if you reverse the Israel and Palestine since the majority came from Europe and the rest of the world.

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 8:51 am

You might become less angry and more tolerant of other people's beliefs and practices.

Mia, I think Rob is right. He's on to something here that I've never considered before. We *should* be more tolerant of head chopping in Thailand. We should be more tolerant of those that preach death to the infidels in their mosques in western countries. While we're at it, lets give them welfare and lots of flexibility to plan other terrorists attacks on us. Why should we interfere with their right to blow us up? How insensitive can we be? Matter of fact, those that are living the high life at the Gitmo Marriott with food better than I eat...we should let them all go. Apologize for interferring with their rights to kill us. Offer them $100,000 each, throw in some free explosives and a few 747s and wish them the best of luck in their journeys. As a gesture of good will, let's offer them some free flight training lessons, all expenses paid. We simply didn't understand their needs to kill us, and that's our fault for not being tolerant of their beliefs.

We should be more tolerant of stoning women to death in Iran. After all, it was the woman's fault for being raped. Let's let Saddam go. He only killed a million or so of his own people. I mean geez, it's not like he and his sons killed everyone. Only a million or so. He wasn't a bad person, he just did a few bad things. But look at all the positive things he did. He gave lots of money to France, Russia, Germany, China and many other countries. He gave oil vouchers to UN employees so they could provide for the future of their families. He was very kind to palestinians. Through is insight, kindness and caring, one his own, he noted that they needed money for their suicide bombers. Where others looked down on their actions, Saddam was the champion for their cause and provided 25k for them. He was kind to the Syrians. He donated lots of WMD to them. Some of them were even used in a failed plot on Jordan, but hey, they deserved it, right? A swell guy he was, we just don't see all the good things he accomplished. Why I bet he'll be up for a Nobel Peace award in no time at all.

We should be more tolerant of genocide in Darfur. After all, they are just killing some old Christians, they deserve it. How else would the killers get to heaven, if not taking out a few Christians, Jews and Buddhists along the way? We should be more tolerant to those blowing up the US, Israel, Spain, the UK and other parts of the world. We must learn to be more tolerant towards Palestinians. All they are doing is blowing up a few Jews like their good book tells them too. Who are we to interfere with their right to secure some virgins at other's expense?

Which tinfoil conference do I sign up for so I can learn to be more tolerant of those whose religion calls for my death? I want to support a young lad's trip to a Pakistani Madrass so he and others can come back to western civilization and share their multiculturalism with the rest of us. We could learn so much.

I want to covertly learn to support Hamas and Hezbollah like the noble members of CAIR do. I want to setup charities for victims of major bombings like 9/11 and divert those funds to terrorist organizations for a good cause.

Where do I sign up?

:rolleyes:

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 8:53 am

If there was a prize for stupid posting, this would have won the first prize. Israel did not exist until after the WWII, so the present Israel belonged to the Arab population but your sentence makes sense if you reverse the Israel and Palestine since the majority came from Europe and the rest of the world.

I don't know, I think Debunked has a valid point. Are you referring to the times before islam was created, or after they took everything by the sword?

I thought islam was about peace and tolerance? You mean they aren't tolerant of Jews? Is it true that I can't hang Christmas lights in Saudi? Does tolerance work in only one direction?

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 9:05 am

I don't know, I think Debunked has a valid point. Are you referring to the times before islam was created, or after they took everything by the sword?

I thought islam was about peace and tolerance? You mean they aren't tolerant of Jews? Is it true that I can't hang Christmas lights in Saudi? Does tolerance work in only one direction?

As I mentioned before, I think most of your posts are somewhere between stupid and moronic, well you raised the bar, this is extra, extra moronic. I am talking about after WWII (if you don't know, this is the war between 1939-1945), do you mean Islam was created after WWII? Israel as a country did not exits before that.

If they don't tolerate the Christmas lights in Saudi, why don't you complain to your president after all the Saudi royal family and Bush family are such a close friends and are even business partners in different companies.:rolleyes:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0603/csmimg/p10a.jpg

By the way, what was the nationality of the most 9/11 terrorists? Saudi Arabia

Arnie

Jul 26th 2005, 9:06 am

:D Just found this
You Blew Me Up You Bastard.Com
If you're killed by an act of terrorism, the newspapers and television stations will use whatever photo they can.

From graduation... (http://youblewmeupyoubastard.com/)

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 9:10 am

We should be more tolerant of genocide in Darfur.

Is it even possible to be MORE tolerant? What exactly are we doing to stop it?

Mia, I think Rob is right. He's on to something here that I've never considered before. We *should* be more tolerant of head chopping in Thailand. We should be more tolerant of those that preach death to the infidels in their mosques in western countries. blah...blah...blah...

Gtech, I'm able to differentiate between terrorists and Muslims. You are not! So I wouldn't expect you to understand.

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 9:28 am

As I mentioned before, I think most of your posts are somewhere between stupid and moronic, well you raised the bar, this is extra, extra moronic. I am talking about after WWII (if you don't know, this is the war between 1939-1945), do you mean Islam was created after WWII? Israel as a country did not exits before that.

As I mentioned before, I had no precoceived notion you wouldn't. We both know why, right? ;)

My bad, history didn't exist prior to WWII. There was never an Israel before and Jerusalem from historical times is just a figment of our imagination. Any mention of Israel prior to WWII should be eradicated from our minds. I get it now :rolleyes:

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 9:38 am

What does that have to do with anything I've said? :confused:

Everything. It just goes to show that people who are faced with terror every day of their lives and the teaching of terror will do most anything to escape it. God bless them for that. Freedom is a valuable thing.

That's exactly what we're doing. Only we call it "spreading democracy."

? Are you confused. You do realize we are at war right? Yeah, the US Military is sending suicide bombers into Muslim homes, buses, subways (if they had them), buildings, planes, etc., ok. Are you ok? You do pay attention to the world around you right? You realize that there is a war going on?

Do you really think that by invading Iraq we've intimidated Muslims into accepting Israel's expansion for a greater homeland? Or do you think it's filled them with anger and frustration?

Ah, no... I was paying attention that day. We are there to remove a dictator, which we have done. We are there to restore democracy, which we have done. We are there to protect freedom for everyone, which we continue to do. Perhaps you need to leave Chicago for a little bit, there is a much bigger world out there you know :)

If your family was in their beds sleeping and a bomb was dropped on their heads, would you be angry?

Of course, and that is what has happened. You do remember 9/11 right? I had no less than 6 family members working in the WTC, and one driving the trains, his second stop of the morning was WTC 1. Until you wear another persons shoes you might want to rethink supporting terrorists, which is what you are doing.

I realize that there are TWO faces of Islam and that many muslim teachers are spreading hatred of the Infidel West. But that's no different than what many Christians are doing here.

You can't be serious. Oh yeah, I forgot about those Catholic Extremists. Those nutty Baptists that just suicide bombed a Jewish deli, or what about those really crazy Born again Christians... They are the worst. So full of hate, and killing in the name of Jesus. Even the Scientologists are at it. They have hijacked Tommy Cruise and have forced him to fly paper airplanes with saran gas.

Get real man. There is a big difference here and I think you know that.

So they hijacked airplanes and killed thousands because of people like me?

Your way of thinking. Being passive and complacent. Yes. Had we been on the offensive like we are now, it never would have happened. Had we not had a president that entertained Irish and Muslim terrorists in our own White House, it never would have happened. Had we not torn down our miilitary in a Carteresque fashion, never would have happened. Had we not disbanded all of our CIA operatives, you know, the ones that killed bad people behind closed doors back in the cold war days, it never would have happened.

This way of thinking disolves freedom. Just ask most of Europe that stood idly by and let Hitler take over their countries, all because they did not think they should be involved.

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 9:38 am

Gtech, I'm able to differentiate between terrorists and Muslims. You are not! So I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Yes, your admirable differentiation capabilities shine through almost as much as your overwhelming tolerance for those doing the deed.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 9:50 am

What war are you talking about? The war against Iraq officially ended 2 years ago.

Who are we at war with? If we are at war, does this mean that prisoners in Guantanamo bay are POW and we are breaking the Geneva convention?

The War on Terror. Where are all of you at today? You do remember that there is a war, right? We've been at war with Terror for almost 4 years now. Remember when our president addressed both houses of congress and the American public and said, "we are at war, a war on terror. we will find the terrorists where ever they are, and we will seek them out and bring them to justice. We will seek out the terrorists AND THE NATIONS THAT HARBOR THEM."

Sound familiar? Remember? There are no Geneva Convention violations occurring in GITMO. It is a prison, yes. Always has been. Not just for war criminals but for our own military. It is not a pleasant place. It is not supposed to be. Even for those who live and work there who are not prisoners, it is not a pleasant place.

I'm sick and tired of the bitching about GITMO. The media and muslim sympathizers want everyone to believe the crayon (spelling) was desecrated there, flushed down the toilet I believe?

NOT POSSIBLE. No one, I mean no one would have had a copy of the crayon (spelling). They do not even issue bibles to prisoners. When you are in prison in GITMO you get NOTHING. Nothing to read, nada, nothing!

My dad was stationed there for several years as a Marine. He paints a much different picture of GITMO than the news and muslim sympathizers would have you believe. It's all bullshit! It's a prison. It is not a pleasant place. It is the end of the world even for those that work there.

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 9:51 am

Until you wear another persons shoes you might want to rethink supporting terrorists, which is what you are doing.

You're a real piece of work!

BTW- One in every four humans is Muslim.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 9:55 am

If there was a prize for stupid posting, this would have won the first prize. Israel did not exist until after the WWII, so the present Israel belonged to the Arab population but your sentence makes sense if you reverse the Israel and Palestine since the majority came from Europe and the rest of the world.

Oh on the contrary. Palestine did not exist prior to 1948. Israel (parts of it) where given back to the Jews after years of A-Rab occupation. Take a walk further back in history and who occupied the middle east? The Jews.

This is a whole other argument. The anti-Semites will always hate the Jews and are always going to claim that there is no Israel and that they do not belong there. That is an argument that can never be won. You cannot argue with people who hate Jews. There is no winning there.

uca

Jul 26th 2005, 9:55 am

Israel did not exist before WWII, but the Jewish nation, as people, yes, all scattered around the globe, but who previously took their land and belongings did not succeed in terminating them.

But history goes in circles and comes back at you, whether it's your fault or your ancestors'.

And that's what happened. In a way I would say that could have been more acceptable, that land that once existed was given back to them, and they called it Israel.

They wouldn't do the same today, or at least not in the same way, but that was over 1/2 a century ago.

BTW, I'm not Jewish.

As far as the war that's going on is concerned, well the Iraqi war definetely is over, there are terrorists 'at work' right now, killing civilians and iraqis preferably, to sabotage the newborn democracy in order to take over. It's guerrilla in Iraq, not war, but it's war on terror globally. New war, new rules, new dangers, new victims, still, war.

Tolerance is right and just if it's reciprocal, otherwise it's just letting people taking advantage of you and what's worse, of other people...

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 9:59 am

Mia, I think Rob is right. He's on to something here that I've never considered before. We *should* be more tolerant of head chopping in Thailand. We should be more tolerant of those that preach death to the infidels in their mosques in western countries. While we're at it, lets give them welfare and lots of flexibility to plan other terrorists attacks on us. Why should we interfere with their right to blow us up? How insensitive can we be? Matter of fact, those that are living the high life at the Gitmo Marriott with food better than I eat...we should let them all go. Apologize for interferring with their rights to kill us. Offer them $100,000 each, throw in some free explosives and a few 747s and wish them the best of luck in their journeys. As a gesture of good will, let's offer them some free flight training lessons, all expenses paid. We simply didn't understand their needs to kill us, and that's our fault for not being tolerant of their beliefs.

We should be more tolerant of stoning women to death in Iran. After all, it was the woman's fault for being raped. Let's let Saddam go. He only killed a million or so of his own people. I mean geez, it's not like he and his sons killed everyone. Only a million or so. He wasn't a bad person, he just did a few bad things. But look at all the positive things he did. He gave lots of money to France, Russia, Germany, China and many other countries. He gave oil vouchers to UN employees so they could provide for the future of their families. He was very kind to palestinians. Through is insight, kindness and caring, one his own, he noted that they needed money for their suicide bombers. Where others looked down on their actions, Saddam was the champion for their cause and provided 25k for them. He was kind to the Syrians. He donated lots of WMD to them. Some of them were even used in a failed plot on Jordan, but hey, they deserved it, right? A swell guy he was, we just don't see all the good things he accomplished. Why I bet he'll be up for a Nobel Peace award in no time at all.

We should be more tolerant of genocide in Darfur. After all, they are just killing some old Christians, they deserve it. How else would the killers get to heaven, if not taking out a few Christians, Jews and Buddhists along the way? We should be more tolerant to those blowing up the US, Israel, Spain, the UK and other parts of the world. We must learn to be more tolerant towards Palestinians. All they are doing is blowing up a few Jews like their good book tells them too. Who are we to interfere with their right to secure some virgins at other's expense?

Which tinfoil conference do I sign up for so I can learn to be more tolerant of those whose religion calls for my death? I want to support a young lad's trip to a Pakistani Madrass so he and others can come back to western civilization and share their multiculturalism with the rest of us. We could learn so much.

I want to covertly learn to support Hamas and Hezbollah like the noble members of CAIR do. I want to setup charities for victims of major bombings like 9/11 and divert those funds to terrorist organizations for a good cause.

Where do I sign up?

:rolleyes:

Beautiful, simply beautiful. Yes, CrazyRob has convince me to. Thanx to GTech for translating CR's words into something I could understand.

How could I have been so ignorant all these years.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 10:01 am

As I mentioned before, I think most of your posts are somewhere between stupid and moronic, well you raised the bar, this is extra, extra moronic. I am talking about after WWII (if you don't know, this is the war between 1939-1945), do you mean Islam was created after WWII? Israel as a country did not exits before that.

If they don't tolerate the Christmas lights in Saudi, why don't you complain to your president after all the Saudi royal family and Bush family are such a close friends and are even business partners in different companies.:rolleyes:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0603/csmimg/p10a.jpg

By the way, what was the nationality of the most 9/11 terrorists? Saudi Arabia

Hey, don't make me pull our my picture of Saddam and Arafat Kissing, and the very next day Clinton and Arafat close to the same thing.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 10:01 am

As I mentioned before, I think most of your posts are somewhere between stupid and moronic, well you raised the bar, this is extra, extra moronic. I am talking about after WWII (if you don't know, this is the war between 1939-1945), do you mean Islam was created after WWII? Israel as a country did not exits before that.

If they don't tolerate the Christmas lights in Saudi, why don't you complain to your president after all the Saudi royal family and Bush family are such a close friends and are even business partners in different companies.:rolleyes:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0603/csmimg/p10a.jpg

By the way, what was the nationality of the most 9/11 terrorists? Saudi Arabia

Hey, don't make me pull our my picture of Saddam and Arafat Kissing, and the very next day Clinton and Arafat close to the same thing.

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 10:05 am

As I mentioned before, I had no precoceived notion you wouldn't. We both know why, right? ;)

My bad, history didn't exist prior to WWII. There was never an Israel before and Jerusalem from historical times is just a figment of our imagination. Any mention of Israel prior to WWII should be eradicated from our minds. I get it now :rolleyes:

So according to same logic, The Indians should take over your home, give you 24 hours to leave with what you can carry or put you in a refugee camp and make a wall between you and the true owners of America.:rolleyes:

Would you agree to give your home to Indians? Let's see how good is your history, when did Indians came to America and when did your ancestor?

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 10:07 am

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 10:09 am

You're a real piece of work!

BTW- One in every four humans is Muslim.

Ditto

.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 10:14 am

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 10:24 am

So according to same logic, The Indians should take over your home, give you 24 hours to leave with what you can carry or put you in a refugee camp and make a wall between you and the true owners of America.:rolleyes:

Would you agree to give your home to Indians? Let's see how good is your history, when did Indians came to America and when did your ancestor?

So when something is proved (that Israel did exist prior to WWII), we simply switch over to the Indians? How does that work?

Ancestor? I am part Commanche Indian. But I need not rely on my heritage to know and see a threat when one is present. Our country has made many reparations to Indians (my ancestors) through the years. What reparations have muslims made to those countries they've blown up?

A wall? Are you serious? You are outraged that Israel (see Sura 32:23 where it mentions Israel. You know, that entity that did not exist prior to WWII, but some how was mysteriously known back in the 600ad time frame) built a wall to prevent terrorists from blowing them up? Yea, that's right along with Rob's thinking. I mean, who are we infidels to stand in the way of those whose religious scriptures call for out deaths, right? We should respect their rights to kill us. Yea, that makes sense!

Yet I'm told it's my posts that are idiotic :D

Next?

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 10:27 am

Go back a bit farther bud. Americans did not take Amercia from the Indians. Europeans did ;)

Shame on Europe :p

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 10:27 am

Well, let's see... My grandfater was born in a TeePee in OK. Hmmm... You are saying that I have about 1/8th a right to take all the land in American? Whoopie... Yeah!!!!

I'm rich!

Go back a bit farther bud. Americans did not take Amercia from the Indians. Europeans did ;)

Oh I forgot, you think that God made Americans and it has got nothing to do with Europeans.:rolleyes:

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 10:43 am

So when something is proved (that Israel did exist prior to WWII), we simply switch over to the Indians? How does that work?

Ancestor? I am part Commanche Indian. But I need not rely on my heritage to know and see a threat when one is present. Our country has made many reparations to Indians (my ancestors) through the years. What reparations have muslims made to those countries they've blown up?

A wall? Are you serious? You are outraged that Israel (see Sura 32:23 where it mentions Israel. You know, that entity that did not exist prior to WWII, but some how was mysteriously known back in the 600ad time frame) built a wall to prevent terrorists from blowing them up? Yea, that's right along with Rob's thinking. I mean, who are we infidels to stand in the way of those whose religious scriptures call for out deaths, right? We should respect their rights to kill us. Yea, that makes sense!

Yet I'm told it's my posts that are idiotic :D

Next?

I did not say that state of Israel existed before 1948, I was just mentioning that if there is some special privilege because ancestor of some people once lived in one place then you should give the same rights to Indians.

Here is the link to wikipedia (which is not a Muslim terrorist organization) that clearly shows the state of Israel was formed in May 14,1948.

State of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Establishment_of_the_State)

Also if you are talking about history, they were first taken by Egyptian, then were freed by Persians and later were taken over by Roman empire and all this happened even before Islam existed. What is your next plan, kill all the Italians because they conquered that area?:rolleyes:

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 10:57 am

I did not say that state of Israel existed before 1948, I was just mentioning that if there is some special privilege because ancestor of some people once lived in one place then you should give the same rights to Indians.

I'm not arguing you did say that. In fact, you said the opposite; that Israel DID NOT exist prior to WWI:

Israel did not exist until after the WWII, so the present Israel belonged to the Arab population but your sentence makes sense if you reverse the Israel and Palestine since the majority came from Europe and the rest of the world.

But if you are going to insist on moral equivalence to justify everything your religion has done over time, then we can use your same argument that muslim countries in the middle east must give rights to all the people and countries it conquered by the sword. Considering Jews are, according islam, "sons of apes and pigs," how do you see that happening?

Moral equivalence isn't always applicable to every situation. For example, you tried to justify thousands of muslim attrocities over the past few years by producting Timothy McViegh as a "gotcha." Problem is, you neglected the islamic connection and moved on to the next "gotcha."

Here is the link to wikipedia (which is not a Muslim terrorist organization) that clearly shows the state of Israel was formed in May 14,1948.

State of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Establishment_of_the_State)

I do not need Wikipedia to know history. Israel did exist prior to WWII.

Also if you are talking about history, they were first taken by Egyptian, then were freed by Persians and later were taken over by Roman empire and all this happened even before Islam existed. What is your next plan, kill all the Italians because they conquered that area?:rolleyes:

So Israel did exist and now you suggest was taken by Egypt first? Or do you stand by your first claim that it didn't exist? Tough choices, eh?

Which version of history works best for you?

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 11:02 am

Oh I forgot, you think that God made Americans and it has got nothing to do with Europeans.:rolleyes:

Are you smoking crack? Where did you get that? I said God made Americans? Ease up on the drugs, or at least show me where I said that.

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 11:06 am

where given back to the Jews after years of A-Rab occupation.

You're nothing more than an angry, hate-filled racist.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 11:08 am

I did not say that state of Israel existed before 1948, I was just mentioning that if there is some special privilege because ancestor of some people once lived in one place then you should give the same rights to Indians.

Here is the link to wikipedia (which is not a Muslim terrorist organization) that clearly shows the state of Israel was formed in May 14,1948.

State of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Establishment_of_the_State)

Also if you are talking about history, they were first taken by Egyptian, then were freed by Persians and later were taken over by Roman empire and all this happened even before Islam existed. What is your next plan, kill all the Italians because they conquered that area?:rolleyes:

I assume you actually read past the first word?

"The State of Israel (Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל, transliteration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration): Medinat Yisra'el; Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): دَوْلَةْ إِسْرَائِيل, transliteration: Dawlat Israil) is a country in the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East) on the eastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea). A parliamentary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_system) democracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy), it is the world's only Jewish state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state). Israel was the birthplace of Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) in the 17th century BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_century_BCE) and of Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) at the beginning of the 1st century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_century) CE. Israel is one of the Biblical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible) names of Jacob (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob). The population of Israel is predominantly Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) with a large non-Jewish minority, mostly comprising Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim), Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian), and Druze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze) Arabs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arab). The territory controlled by Israel, including the West Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) and Gaza Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip), borders the states of Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon) and Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria) in the north, Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan) in the east, and Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) in the south-west. Israel shares the coastlines of the Mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea), the Gulf of Aqaba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Aqaba) (also known as Gulf of Eilat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilat)), and the Dead Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea)."

I like where it says "Israel was the birthplace of Judasim in the 17th century BCE and of Christainity at the beginning of the 1st century CE." Yet we still claim that Israel did not exist prior to 1948? Dr., get back in the TARDIS... We must have gone back in time and forward, and back.. Ah, screw it, the TARDIS was always broken though wasn't it.

What part of CA do you hail from anyway?

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 11:10 am

You're nothing more than an angry, hate-filled racist.

What? Racist? I really do not think you know who you are talking to. ARAB's are not a race.

Because I do not agree with you, you find me angry. Because you are angry and cannot say anything nice or sensible you pull the race card.

Thank you for showing your true colors.

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 11:28 am

Quote:
Originally Posted by gworld
Oh I forgot, you think that God made Americans and it has got nothing to do with Europeans.

Are you smoking crack? Where did you get that? I said God made Americans? Ease up on the drugs, or at least show me where I said that.

No I am not smoking crack but I have spoken with crack heads that make more sense than you.:p

If you think Americans got nothing to do with Europeans and God didn't made them either, where do you think that they came from?

You are mixing 2 definitions and try to justify your reasoning, there is no one that disputes the existence of geographical area historically know as Israel and many significant historical events in that area. The place existed, the same as America, Asia and Africa existed.

The questions is, when the STATE of Israel was formed which is 1948. If we are going to correct all the historical changes, why don't we give most of Asia and some part of Europe to Persian because they had the Persian empire and ruled that area. We can give most of the Europe to Italians because of Roman Empire and How about giving America back to Indian or British?

To make it very simple for you to understand, North America as a continent and the land of Indian existed very very long time ago, the United State of America as a STATE (country) was established in 1776.:)

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 11:38 am

Thank you for showing your true colors.

Ha, I've never heard you say that before! According to you, I've shown my true colors at least ten times already.

Because you are angry and cannot say anything nice or sensible you pull the race card.

I didn't "pull a race card".

Stop repeating things you've heard other people say.

When you refer to people as "A-rabs", that's considered a racial slur. Feel free to call it whatever you want if it helps you feel better about yourself.

Maybe "bigot" would have been a better choice of words. MY BAD!

And calling the Quran a "crayon"? Grow up, man!

Because I do not agree with you, you find me angry.

I couldn't care less about you not agreeing with me. If you did agree w/ me I'd have to re-evaluate my life.

If you're not an angry person, I apologize for calling you one. It's just the impression I got based on your comments in this thread.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 11:46 am

No I am not smoking crack but I have spoken with crack heads that make more sense than you.:p

If you think Americans got nothing to do with Europeans and God didn't made them either, where do you think that they came from?

You are mixing 2 definitions and try to justify your reasoning, there is no one that disputes the existence of geographical area historically know as Israel and many significant historical events in that area. The place existed, the same as America, Asia and Africa existed.

The questions is, when the STATE of Israel was formed which is 1948. If we are going to correct all the historical changes, why don't we give most of Asia and some part of Europe to Persian because they had the Persian empire and ruled that area. We can give most of the Europe to Italians because of Roman Empire and How about giving America back to Indian or British?

To make it very simple for you to understand, North America as a continent and the land of Indian existed very very long time ago, the United State of America as a STATE (country) was established in 1776.:)

I always love how Canadians always seem to know so much more about our history than we do.

Who should we give Canada back to? :)

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 11:59 am

I always love how Canadians always seem to know so much more about our history than we do.

Who should we give Canada back to? :)

This is because we think education is important and we don't forbid science or Darwin in schools so people believe in religious fantasies, if we did, we would have a lot more people like you.;)

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 12:09 pm

This is because we think education is important and we don't forbid science or Darwin in schools so people believe in religious fantasies, if we did, we would have a lot more people like you.;)

You really help to aid in the Coulter stereotypes that bother many of us.

I really do not know when the last time was I heard such ignorant draconia statements made. So you hate the US. Fine.

It all makes sense now...

debunked

Jul 26th 2005, 12:17 pm

"science or darwin" That is so true, you can study science or darwinism. but the 2 are not the same.

Kind of like putting the fiction in with non-fiction.

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 12:19 pm

It all makes sense now...

Thank you for showing your true colors, gworld! :p

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 12:27 pm

For the record Science, and the teachings of Darwin's Theory of Evolution are not banned in the US Public School system. I went to both Catholic and Public schools, we discused Darwin in both :)

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 12:54 pm

You really help to aid in the Coulter stereotypes that bother many of us.

I really do not know when the last time was I heard such ignorant draconia statements made. So you hate the US. Fine.

It all makes sense now...

OK, You got me, you found 1 Canadian that are education system was not able to help. On the other hand, we as a country were smart enough to ignore her and she couldn't get a job here, so she had to move to USA and what happened there, she gets a job on TV and becomes a spoke woman for republicans.

No wonder USA, is called the land of opportunities, even the idiots can represent a big political party ideology.:p

I don't hate USA, I lived there and have many American friends and I specially love American women from California and part of Texas, much better looking than Canadians.

What I strongly dislike is illiterate, bible waving people that their whole view about the world is formed by stories that they have heard from a illiterate preacher back home.:p

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 1:12 pm

OK, You got me, you found 1 Canadian that are education system was not able to help. On the other hand, we as a country were smart enough to ignore her and she couldn't get a job here, so she had to move to USA and what happened there, she gets a job on TV and becomes a spoke woman for republicans.

No wonder USA, is called the land of opportunities, even the idiots can represent a big political party ideology.

I don't hate USA, I lived there and have many American friends and I specially love American women from California and part of Texas, much better looking than Canadians.

What I strongly dislike is illiterate, bible waving people that their whole view about the world is formed by stories that they have heard from a illiterate preacher back home.

What are you talking about? She was born and raised in Connecticut. I'm not sure she ever lived in Canada. She Graduated cum laude from Cornell and has a JD from Michigan. Not too shabby on the education front.

For someone that says things like:

Canada is "lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent"

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I doubt someone from Canada would say something like that about Canada.

Are you sure you and I are talking about the same person here?

Now why is it when someone has an opinion that differs from yours they suddenly become labeled a bible waiving illiterate? Why are you so angry all the time?

debunked

Jul 26th 2005, 1:13 pm

gworld where is AnthonyCea when you need him???

Why do people always resort to name calling ie: bigot, bible waving, ignorant, illiterate, whever a belief is challanged?

MELLA

Jul 26th 2005, 1:14 pm

Where is the mute button when you need it???

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 1:30 pm

Why do people always resort to name calling ie: bigot, bible waving, ignorant, illiterate, whever a belief is challanged?

Because Rob is trying to be a part of the "big boys" chat, but simply doesn't have a clue. The cheap, easy way is stand up and yell Racist, Bigot!

It takes no effort nor any skill. There's a dhimmi in every crowd :p

Was there Bible waiving? I must have missed that. Or was someone claiming it was going on when it wasn't. That's a popular one too!

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 1:38 pm

What are you talking about? She was born and raised in Connecticut. I'm not sure she ever lived in Canada. She Graduated cum laude from Cornell and has a JD from Michigan. Not too shabby on the education front.

For someone that says things like:

Canada is "lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent"

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I doubt someone from Canada would say something like that about Canada.

Are you sure you and I are talking about the same person here?

Now why is it when someone has an opinion that differs from yours they suddenly become labeled a bible waiving illiterate? Why are you so angry all the time?

OBS!:o I made a mistake and NOT AFRAID TO ADMIT.

Because we were talking about Canada, I mixed up her with our Canadian version Rachel Marsden, 2 faces, same stupid arguments.

I am not angry and I would like to discuss this in logical matter and if you look at my first post in this thread, you will see that in my opinion this problem has got nothing to do with religion.

It is mia and Gtech that bring up bible and Islam in to the discussion all the time.

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 1:42 pm

The cheap, easy way is stand up and yell Racist, Bigot!

I call 'em like I see 'em, big guy!

It's fine for someone to call me a terrorist supporter? But when I call someone a bigot or a racist all hell breaks loose and the game is no longer fair?

:rolleyes:

debunked

Jul 26th 2005, 1:51 pm

I wasn't really pointing at Rob on that comment, but rob I don't see him being a bigot a racist in any of his comments, but the a-rab one could be seen as that by someone just the same as saying blacks in a sentence stirs up people to say racist.

When I was in the Dominican Republic, the people there thought the US was pretty funny with all of the PC (politically correct) crap. PC police are the ones keeping up the tension between races in this country!

I find guys like Jesse jackson to be as offensive and racist as the white-supremists.

Crazy_Rob

Jul 26th 2005, 1:56 pm

I'm no "PC freak", trust me! And I'm not easily offended.

It's just classless to call arabs "A-rabs" and refer to their holy book as the "Crayon". THAT is driving the tension between races in this country!

Besides, Gtech and mia admitted that they don't care for muslims. So, end of story- IMO.

mcfox

Jul 26th 2005, 1:59 pm

Isn't it interesting that this debate is about how to stop terror and yet this thread is an example of how it can seem impossible to reconcile, even with the common repulsion of the hatred that drives terror.

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 2:02 pm

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 2:04 pm

It's fine for someone to call me a terrorist supporter?

You mean you are not a terrorist supporter? You don't want the terrorists in Iraq to win?

News to me ;)

uca

Jul 26th 2005, 2:05 pm

Racism means discrimination based upon race, but the meaning can be extended to religion, gender, etc...

Most, if not all, muslim countries are actually very much more racist (in the extended sense) than western countries, that's why this thread and most posts are allowed to stay...

That would not happen in most, if not all, the typical islamic countries.

So who's racist?

So go and tell them they are racists and be prepared for a completely different response...:D

Even if you don't accept that, there's still discrimination enough for a riots and eventually a full scale revolution anywhere in the west.

Our life is so different, that maybe there's nothing we can do about it and periodically we have to confront them. Of course defending our countries, our culture and our future is at least as right as those people defending theirs.

Mia

Jul 26th 2005, 2:06 pm

OBS!:o I made a mistake and NOT AFRAID TO ADMIT.

Because we were talking about Canada, I mixed up her with our Canadian version Rachel Marsden, 2 faces, same stupid arguments.

I am not angry and I would like to discuss this in logical matter and if you look at my first post in this thread, you will see that in my opinion this problem has got nothing to do with religion.

It is mia and Gtech that bring up bible and Islam in to the discussion all the time.

No problem. I just wanted to know because it was quite possible I was wrong. And if I was, would be right there with you, not afraid to admit it.

When did I bring up the bible? I have been labeled "bible waiving", but I do not remember waiving a bible around this thread. Again I could be wrong.

GTech

Jul 26th 2005, 2:09 pm

Besides, Gtech and mia admitted that they don't care for muslims. So, end of story- IMO.

About the same time you admitted you support terrorists, right?

ferret77

Jul 26th 2005, 2:16 pm

well missed out on a lot of posts, you guys got to see this boat I bought today

anyways

We are at war, remember? A lot of people seem to forget that.

What the hell is a "non-white" person? Are we playing the race card again? No, I tell my kid it is ok to defend freedom against terrorists. They come in many different flavors. "Non-White", you are hillarious. Muslim is not a race my friend. It is no more a "race" than being an "American".

Iraq had everything to do with the motivation and support of terror, which includes 9/11.

Ok so what you are basically saying is that dead civilians are part of war and should not be a big deal?

Did you know that bin laden declared war on us in 98

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/08/19/terror.tape.main/

And by your logic 9/11 is just part of that war, so you shouldn't think the civilians who died on 9/11 were a big deal either.

We are at war, remember? A lot of people seem to forget that.

So basically when the other side kills thousands of civilians its terrorism, an outrage , evil etc. But when we do the same thing, you don't see how its a big deal, becasue we are at war.

I cannot see how any thinking person can not see the hypocrisy and ignorance of that statement.

Dead civilians on either side should not be acceptable.

Iraq had everything to do with the motivation and support of terror, which includes 9/11.

ok lets play a little game I will post a link to reputable news source where rumsfeild (you know who he is right?) says there was no Iraqi 911 link.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-09-16-rumsfeld-iraq-911_x.htm

If you can't post a link to reputable news source that says there is a link between the two, then you can never again use the had to invade Iraqi becasue of 911 stuff again. You can still use the WMD reason if you want , even thought that has been proven false.

Henny

Jul 26th 2005, 2:26 pm

Why are people still actually defending islam? Pathetic, when I see the IMAMS (sp) marching against terrorist instead of rejoicing at the death of americans, I will stop equating terror with islam. We were 100% right to go to war with Iraq, the cost of life in the war was considerably less then a typical year under the thumb of saddam. Big difference though, this war is winding down, saddam was just gearing up. How muslims can defend saddams actions when he killed more muslims than anyone in recent times is beyond me. As far as palestinians and jews, I dont really think we should be involved, let them kill each other off if they are too stupid to get along. Just keep your f-ing jihad out of my country or people like me get real stupid.

Wake up call anyone?

Ah yes, the religion of peace....

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/files/bodysmall1.jpg
http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/files/bodysmall2.jpg
http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/files/bodysmall5.jpg

Henny

Jul 26th 2005, 2:29 pm

You got an excuse for this shit?

WARNING GRAPHIC VIDEO
-> http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/nepal.wmv
WARNING GRAPHIC VIDEO

e10

Jul 26th 2005, 2:35 pm

No Henny,

There are no excuses for one human being treating another in that way. The individuals who were responsible should pay for their crimes.

gworld

Jul 26th 2005, 2:37 pm

gworld, your opinion that it's not about religion has no substance to back it up, nor have you put forth any effort in validating that claim. In fact, I even took the time to carry the discussion that direction, but when I asked why other religions were not chopping off heads, blowing up trains and subways, etc, you just skipped right over it. When I noted the article that shows terrorists are not poverty stricken lost souls and how one of the London bombers had a new red Mercedes, you skipped right over it. I don't think you want to, nor can you, discuss it at that level, because what suggest simply isn't true. Between you and I, I know what you are doing and I know why. We know the truth, right?

It is about religion and pretending otherwise creates and aura of foolishness. How can there be a discussion about terrorism if you cannot even acknowledge islam's role in contributing to the problem? Again, there is a difference between hatred and being aware. You either do not want to be aware, or are attempting to deceive others. How does that benefit the discussion?

If you ever read what others post, you could have read in my first post in this thread that I mentioned most of these people are middle class before you even mention your Mercedes.:p

First Post (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=22153&page=14)

In what way killing by a bomb is worse than sending a laser guided missile on a wedding party to kill women and children? Did you see the news film about American soldier shooting a wounded man on the ground? do you admire that because he didn't chop off his head?

I don't believe you really care about terrorism or peace, you are driven by personal hatred that is usually caused by personal motives. I have seen people like you before and the most usual reasons are as follows:

1- You are angry because some Arab or Muslim who lives near you has much better financially than you. It is not fair, after all this is YOUR country.

2- You have lost your job or passed over for promotion because of a Muslim. You can not blame yourself for lack of education or motivation, easier to blame the other guy.

3- Your girlfriend or wife has left you or cheated on you with a Muslim.

4- You are generally unhappy with your life and looking for outlet to aim your frustration and anger.

I see that you still hinting that because I do not agree with your stupid comments, I must be a Muslim. I am not and in my opinion God and all religions belong to fantasy section of library and any one who believes in these nonsense should get his/her head examined but even if I was I could change, what can you do about your IQ?:p

Henny

Jul 26th 2005, 2:38 pm

And the cheering crowds? And how about those that defend or even applaud those actions?

MELLA

Jul 26th 2005, 2:38 pm

Oh crap! I know u gave that video a warning, but omfg! I so wish I hadent clicked that link.

I...have...no...words...

Henny

Jul 26th 2005, 2:41 pm

Ah yes, the media hasn't shown you those have they Mella, but the media will GLADLY show FULL SIZE FRONT PAGE pictures of some terrorist being "mistreated" on the end of a leash.

Critters

Jul 26th 2005, 2:46 pm

people like me get real stupid.
Yup.

Cherry picking pictures and posting videos of people having their heads cut off is not giving a balanced view of a hell of allot of people. you are just showing the few bad and not the many good.

WARNING GRAPHIC VIDEO
I could link up some videos of some extreme racist American hate groups, that go round to this day beating blacks and Jews. That does not reflect on Americans as a whole, does it? Hell there was a program on British TV where they followed such a group going from school to school recruiting kids to join them and their views.

I see one narrow minded person on this form now.. pretty sure its a minority.

You got an excuse for this shit?
Nope.

Not your fault, the news only report these stories, "if it bleeds, it leads" Bottom line, all you see is what you are shown and told, and only the worst bits of war get reported, I am sure there are videos of troops gunning down civilians on Iraq TV. You are only looking at the worst parts of a one sided story.

9/11 angered you? they have planes flying over their city blowing stuff up too. if you had a 9/11 event every month.. would you not want to cut of one of their heads if you captured one?

Again, I do not condone any actions on either side, just the nature of war and how it is reported and supported and how peoples views tend to be one sided.