Bush verses Kerry DP poll

[anthonycea]

Can we vote for President here at Digital Point?

[schlottke]

You should have just started a poll - it would be pretty fun to see... ;)

[anthonycea]

I think I made a mistake when starting the poll, Shawn can you put Compar in as an independent in the poll please, I would hate to see only two parties represented in the DP poll.

Add Al Sharpton and OJ if you can also.

[schlottke]

I want to write in Dole... lol.

[Dominic]

As the President of the United States may as well also be the President of Australia at the moment :mad: I hope we both loose the incumbant (US & Aus).

[Such Great Heights]

Where is Kucinich? I don't want Kerry or Bush. Where is the move out of America option? I vote that one.

[Will.Spencer]

Where is the move out of America option? I vote that one.

That option lost a great deal of it's luster when the lying scumbags who claimed they would leave our great country if we were to elect George W. Bush against their wishes failed to live up to their promises.

We did our part of the bargain; they should have lived up to theirs.

[mopacfan]

Here here...

[Such Great Heights]

That option lost a great deal of it's luster when the lying scumbags who claimed they would leave our great country if we were to elect George W. Bush against their wishes failed to live up to their promises.

We did our part of the bargain; they should have lived up to theirs.
I must have missed this part.
Who is the lying scumbags who claimed they'd leave?

[rustybrick]

Close results, I think I hear "recount". :)

[schlottke]

He is referring to the people that said they would move out of the USA if Bush was elected - Im not quite that upset that people didn't move out, but I did have a Bush hater run me off the road yesterday and try to fight me because I have a bumber sticker that says Protected by the Blood of Jesus on my car... (Not a joke.)

[Such Great Heights]

He is referring to the people that said they would move out of the USA if Bush was elected - Im not quite that upset that people didn't move out, but I did have a Bush hater run me off the road yesterday and try to fight me because I have a bumber sticker that says Protected by the Blood of Jesus on my car... (Not a joke.)
OK i figured he was talking about "the people" who said they'd move out. but I was wondering if there was a certain group, or just random people off the street, or what.

Hearing that someone tried to run you off the road is scary. For any reason, especially something dumb like "I think you are wrong." :confused:

Although I did feel really sad and for a split second got the feeling I wanted to bash some lady's car because she had a sticker basically saying gay marriage was gross and wrong. :eek: but I'd never actually do it.

[Touchdown]

My dogs name is George W. No lie. :)

[anthonycea]

Rusty, the only reason it is close is that votes from Florida were stolen and not counted, Jeb Bush is governor and he is floating the bags down the river. :D By Florida law no one from Florida can vote in the Digital Point Election :D

Shawn has coded the election so that voters from Florida think they voted but in reality their votes were eaten by spyware viruses. :D

[Owlcroft]

First, pragmatic issues. Ask yourself these two questions; they may seem emotionally tinged, but in fact they are sober and realistic points.

1. Can you reasonably imagine anyone who voted for Al Gore in 2000 voting for George Bush in 2004?

2. Can you reasonably imagine anyone who voted for George Bush in 2000 voting for John Kerry in 2004?

I submit that the answers are 1) NO, and 2) YES. The NO in #1 is going to be awfully solid. It may be that the YES in #2 is fairly thin--but then we come to Phase II.

In 2004, Al Gore won the popular vote by a strong margin. He also would have won the Electoral vote save for the fix in Florida, which was not "hanging chads" (though the months-long analyses after the fact showed that had his legal strategists had a thimbleful of brain between them, and at once sought a complete, statewide recount--instead of foolishly looking for county-by-county recounts--even that would likely have swung it), but was the "purging" of 87,000 perfectly well-qualified voters (96% black, probably all Republicans, yes?) from the voter rolls, in the same trick they had the once-surprising (but today routine) gall to try to trot out again this year.

So, while it's not likely to be a landslide, whatever that is these days, it seems--barring the inevitable possibility of some last-minute debacle (such as "my astrologist told me that there might be some Ay-rab a'settin' off a cherry bomb next week, so we'd better stop all this election nonsense for a few weeks or months or years"--oops, sorry, that was Nancy with the astrologists, this time it'll be the CIA, no, oops, sorry, we played that card last week, well, anyway, somebody told me)--that a Kerry presidency is as close to assured as any such matter ever gets at this stage.

Now, second, about people leaving the United States. Have any of you living here ever actually looked into what is involved in trying to emigrate to any other country? If you restrict yourself to the civilized nations, the ones that would be a material improvement over the U.S. in social or moral terms, kiss it off : they ain't havin' none of it. If you have a 55-gallon drumfull of cash, you can buy your way into Canadian citizenship. Or, if you have perhaps less than a 55-gallon drumfull, but still a few bucketfulls, you can try New Zealand in a business-emigration basis. I myself never vowed to leave the U.S. for this or that or t'other; but I definitely have looked into it, and one's choices are not palatable.

Third, as to wanting Kucinich: sure, the Demos do not always seem able to identify their best. It was a bloody shame last time around that Paul Tsongas turned out to be a doomed man, which I now suppose was more widely known among the pro pols than it then was to the public. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with Kerry, and much that is righter than folk not yet well acquainted with him realize. The bottom line, you see, is that whether it is good or bad, likeable or dislikeable, it is ineluctable fact that we only get to choose between two persons for the presidency, and that's how it'll be for a long time. So "I'd have preferred ---" is just meaningless bar chatter.

For those not convinced, keep in mind what someone or other famously remarked: the only thing worse than the lesser of two evils is the greater of two evils.

[anthonycea]

The way I look at it is this, this is the same gang that screwed up the first Gulf War, if they wanted to take out Saddam they should have took him out in 91 when they were on the ground then.

This country has paid 1,000 fold in lives and money exported to the middle east for something that could have happened in the first Gulf War when Bush Senior made the worst decision in modern history when he let Saddam stay in power.

So I say that we make change at this time since this cast of characters in power is the same group that made that mistake. This war is exporting Billions of dollars and jobs to places where we will never gain any benefit from not to mention lives lost for a war that is simply a religious war that can not be solved by men anyway.

Lets put it this way, I ain't voting Republican.

[mopacfan]

In 2004, Al Gore won the popular vote by a strong margin. He also would have won the Electoral vote save for the fix in Florida...
I disagree. I'm not a bush fan by any stretch of the imagination, but there were several independent university reports that showed bush had more than just a narrow margin of victory in Fla. The dems only have fear mongering and playing on emotions because if you look at what they really stand for, they are nothing more than sacks of hot air who don't have a clue about the real world around them. And what about Sandy Berger? And Kerry has this clown on his team?

If you want real change and a real President, vote Libertarian. Until the republicrats and the demicans are removed from power, it's going to be the same old bullshit over and over and over and over and over and, well you get the idea. Don't pick between the lesser of two EVILS. Evil is just that, why should you settle for that? Pick someone who is GOOD and will work to pull our nation out of the moral decay it has fallen into. Anyone remember what happened to the Romans? History repeats itself yet again.

[compar]

So what specifically is wrong with Sandy Berger?

And who is the libertarian candidate?

I read an interesting quote just the other day. It said:

"The only thing worse than the lesser of two evils, is the greater of two evils".

In my mind Bush definitely qualifies as the "greater of two evils". The man and everything he does, and stands for, personifies EVIL.

[Help Desk]

Neither candidate is "Evil". They do what they see as best. With that being said my vote is going to be weighed on one thing. Has Bush wowed me the past 4 years?

If he hasn't, then give somebody else the opportunity. If he has then vote him in.
A president should alway inspire the people. They should never vote out of fear, whether it be terrorism, the economy or some new future unseen hurtle.

[compar]

Can we vote for President here at Digital Point?
Anthony, it would be interesting to enlarge the poll to ask the non Americans for their opinion. I don't think many Americans understand how almost universally Bush is despised and feared in the rest of the world. It is hard for me to understand how this can be in the long term interest of the USA.

Now some may say "so what? let the rest of the world mind their own damn business". But that should works both ways. And certainly, Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Rummy and the boys are perfectly happy to try and force their ideas on the rest of the world.

[anthonycea]

Well Compar, just put up another thread, because some folks really think that it is alright in America to steal, to lie, to go to war for profit and a lot of other things that have ruined the economy and the security of the country.

I say it is time for a change, as far as all the evil I would say a lot of folks all over the world agree with you, we have lost a lot of support from other nations. Now we want NATO to bail us out in Iraq, same as they did in the AFGAN war.

Europe is going to be the power to be worried about down the road.

As far as changing the poll, I asked Shawn to do it, to include Compar, OJ and AL Sharpten, but I think he wants to keep it real to get a indication of the true nature of the election (DP Poll).

If we were to include you, you would win in a landslide here at DP. :D

[digitalpoint]

Anthony, it would be interesting to enlarge the poll to ask the non Americans for their opinion. I don't think many Americans understand how almost universally Bush is despised and feared in the rest of the world. It is hard for me to understand how this can be in the long term interest of the USA.
We do understand it. I'm even a Republican, and usually I don't care too much about politics, but this election I'll be voting for whoever I think has the best chance to beat Bush. It's embarrassing to be an American these days.

While I'm on the topic, the biggest thing that scares me about the current administration is how they handled the Iraq situation. I (like most people I know) had a pretty good suspicion that there never were any weapons of mass destruction before the war. The administration was forcing all sorts of things upon Iraq (UN inspectors, etc.) in the hopes that they would not comply.

I'm not arguing that Saddam Hussein wasn't a bad person... and I'm sure Iraq is a better place without him in power. But our reasoning for overthrowing the government was, "Well, he really hasn't done anything... but he might in the future." That's what scares me. We should have finished the job the first time around (when there was a legitimate reason).

I would rather not live in a country that takes action/convicting people of crimes they may commit in the future. (That starts to be like Minority Report).

I think Reagan was a great president, and I also think Clinton was a great president, but I haven't been too impressed with either of the Bushes.

[SEbasic]

Personally, I'm with Compar.

I think that the reasons behing going to Iraq were somewhat sceptical. I dont think that the reasons were justified (9/11 was terrible, but was it down to Saddam?).

I am in the UK, and as a result have'nt seen all of the TV advertising that goes on over there. I have got some divX files that have some "pro Bush" ads on.

It's all a big popularity contest (same as it is over here - just accentuated IMHO). Whoever has the best marketing guy behind them will win.

My two cents.

[Dominic]

Yes that would be an interesting poll. I would vote to get rid of Bush - I'd hand out panphlets for whoever ran against him.

Everyone I know living here in Australia that has US citizenship (only 5 people), hasn't voted in US elections since they have been living in Australia. But they all say they will vote this time to get rid of Jr. Bush.

[digitalpoint]

Everyone I know living here in Australia that has US citizenship (only 5 people), hasn't voted in US elections since they have been living in Australia. But they all say they will vote this time to get rid of Jr. Bush.
That seems to be the norm here in the US too (for people I know at least). I think this election will have record turnouts, because people who normally don't care all that much about politics (myself included) feel strongly enough (one way or the other) to vote.

I didn't vote in the 2000 election because at the time I really didn't care either way, and who knows... maybe Gore would have been a worse president. But it pretty much takes a strong desire for me to remove someone from office to take the time to vote (and I'm sure others are in the same boat).

Personally, I don't think Bush is going to win... it was a close election the last time, and I don't think a whole lot of Democrats will be voting for Bush this time around. But I think there will be more Republicans (myself included) voting against him.

[mcdar]

I too must report that I have heard many self professed Republicans state that they will be voting to REMOVE Bush from office.

I am no youngster, believe me. I have NEVER heard these types of comments before.

As US Presidents come and go, some are good and some are "so-so" but seldom is there one who is BAD. One who has actually managed to do more harm than good.

If members of his own party will be voting to get him out, GW Bush Jr. has made it on that short list indeed.

[anthonycea]

Anyone happen to look at the ads this thread is generating, I have seen Kerry/Bush ads, Bin ladin/Aquida ads and that sort of thing, unbelieveable.

[Owlcroft]

I disagree. I'm not a bush fan by any stretch of the imagination, but there were several independent university reports that showed bush had more than just a narrow margin of victory in Fla. The dems only have fear mongering and playing on emotions . . . .Other than being factually wrong, that's fine.

As I wrote, the real issue was not the "hanging chads" that all the focus was on--though, even in that silly distraction, the studies you mention concluded that a sound, statewide recount would almost certainly have given the state to Gore (not to mention the notorious "butterfly ballot" issue, itself enough to have made the swing).

What I was emphasizing--and you'd think anyone who reads the papers now would know what I'm speaking of, since they tried it yet again--is the entirely false and unfounded removal of tens of thousands of perfectly qualified voters, almost all black, from the voting rolls on the spurious and invented ground that they are "former felons", when in fact of the 90,000 they summarily disqualified in 2000,some 87,000 were properly qualified voters, all restored to the rolls shortly after the election. That's a whacking great hit in an election "settled" by a few hundred votes. And I won't even go into the goon squads the GOoPs flew into Florida en masse to harrass and occasionally terrify local recount boards.

Wake up and smell the coffee, or, in this case, the pigsty sludge.

And, as to Berger, the only "crime" anyone has yet even suggested he committeed was having a pretty sloppy desk, on which papers got lost till carefully searched for. Wow. Send him up for 20 at the Big House. He could, were there any real justice, visit there with every member of the current administration (and a trio of Supreme Court Injustices), excepting those sent to a looney bin instead of jail.

[anthonycea]

What Owlcroft is saying is true, this has been on the news lately in FLA, I know I watch it.

Not only in the last election did it happen (blacks, convicted felons statement) it is still happening right now in Florida, you must remember that Jeb Bush is Governor then and now, all high officials in Florida Government are Republicans.

Florida has a lot of "backwoods" type towns, the Good old boy's are the law men. They were blocking off roads from certain "hoods" to keep folk from voting in the last election.

Just ask the NAACP, they will tell you all about it. How about the missing bags of votes, this will happen AGAIN.

It takes a few phone calls to even get your voter reg. card sent out in some places that are Republican contoled counties, unless you are a Reg. Republican, then your card is sent right away, no questions asked.

Oh, we did not have your first name on the form, just your last name, so we held up sending you your card.

America, love it or leave it.

[mcdar]

Originally Posted by Owlcroft
...And, as to Berger, the only "crime" anyone has yet even suggested he committeed was having a pretty sloppy desk, on which papers got lost till carefully searched for. Wow. Send him up for 20 at the Big House. He could, were there any real justice, visit there with every member of the current administration (and a trio of Supreme Court Injustices), excepting those sent to a looney bin instead of jail.



Yeee- Haw!!!! You da man!!!!

I love it :D

[Help Desk]

I agree with ousting Saddam Hussein simply because he killed hundreds of thousands of people for no reason. It was basically the US's fault that he got the kind of power to be able to do that in the first place.

Now it's time to leave Iraq and shed this stigma that is attached with doing it in the first place. Can we do that with Bush?

This is comparable to the hiring of a corporate axe-man when times are tough. He does what needs to be done, and then he is let go because large entities' reputations are very important.

btw, it would be nice if McCain would run again in 4 years.

[debunked]

I like your point of view - ThinkBling - I feel that is true. For the most part I even agree with you, except I will keep Bush anyday over someone like Kerry. He really makes me want to make sure everyone gets out and votes.

I am also very, very, very glad that Gore has not been in power the last 4 years. (Did he invent the terrorist bomb too? LOL) Gore would have just bombed a couple of orphanages or something in Afganistan and called it good (Clinton advisor style)

Anthonycea, you should go work for Kerry, I think they could use your help.

[schlottke]

I honestly think that both of them (Bush and Kerry) are not good for the Nation.

Bush isn't simply because so many people hate him, and you can't have leadership where many people dispise the leader.

Kerry on the other hand is a complete wuss. He doesn't have any solid opinions and seems to sway with the group he is speaking to. Perhaps it is just me, but a country that is suppose to be a dominate power shouldn't have such a sissy in office.

I honestly think going into Iraq wasn't a bad idea. If Bush hadn't gone in and weapons did exist, he'd be f***ed and we might be too. Hindsight is 20/20, I'd rather swing at a bully than let him hit me first.

[compar]

I honestly think going into Iraq wasn't a bad idea. If Bush hadn't gone in and weapons did exist, he'd be f***ed and we might be too. Hindsight is 20/20, I'd rather swing at a bully than let him hit me first.
But there weren't any WMD and Bush knew it and he lied to the American people. Clinton was impeached for lying about his sex life. That didn't kill anybody. Bush lied about WMD and it has killed at least 1,000 Americans, to say nothing of the countless Iraqs. And it has cost the country billion and billions of dollars.

And the real problem is that Bush thinks he is doing God's will. How can anybody support an immoral, unethical, ignorant, arrogant asshole like this?

Schlottke I'm really disappointed in you for not being able to see though this evil, evil charade. Bush is the most dangerous president in the history of the USA. Save yourself. He has to go.

[anthonycea]

Debunked, I would take that job, since my regular business since the recession of 2000 has forced me to look at getting a job and I have been self employed since 1980.

Things have not been this bad (low wages, high energy costs, no good jobs, corporate cutbacks, sending jobs to China and India) in a long damm time.

Do you want another 4 years of the "Haliburton Administration", maybe if I worked for Houston oilmen I would not have the economic problems like most Americans do!

[duncan pollock]

I'm hoping it will pop up when you click on it here, but I've just had the following sent to me as an e-mail attachment: http://www.jibjab.com/
If not, just punch the URL into your browser Address bar.
It's certainly good for a laugh.

Duncan :D

[anthonycea]

Duncan, that is interesting, did these guys start Atom films?

Compar, getting back to the voting outside of the country, Digital Point voting is open to anyone anywhere, so the Digital Point Nation is worldwide.

DP voting has more integrity than the US vote, RIGHT, at least your vote was counted fairly! Maybe Shawn has a new business (polling) here.

So you are now in a greater country, the worldwide Digital Point Nation.

Never say you can not vote again. :D

[schlottke]

I fell it is unamerican to not support our president, just my opinion. I don't particularly find Bush to be the best bet for president. If he really lied and knew there were no WMDs, then I totally agree with you.

"Clinton was impeached for lying about his sex life."

He should have done jail time, just like Martha Stewert, thats perjury.

"Bush knew it and he lied to the American people."

If he did lie, he shouldn't be in office, yet I've not seen any proof *he* lied, someone did though.

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. I just wish that it wasnt Bush or Kerry.

[anthonycea]

Yes SB, but is is also unAmerican if we take away a citizens right not to support him.

It is also the right of Americans to express their opinions on a forum like this without Shawn or the members being subject to arrest or being jailed if we choose to express ourselves.

In times past in this country (WW2 when certain groups were rounded up because they were from some other land) we were not always given rights.

But if folks quit expressing themselves freely, then we will lose these rights, so keep your opinions coming, but allow others to have theirs also. That is what free speech and this forum should be about.

[anthonycea]

The thing about Presidents lying is interesting, but can we talk about lying in general and how it affects our daily lives.

It is common for lies to be told to people, the cigarette industry lied to folks for years before they admitted that the product hurt its users.

Your doctor lies to you everyday and gives you drugs that he says will heal your problem, but in fact those same drugs cause many other problems that they call "side effects"

The news media lies to all of us everyday by holding back the truth about the cause of problems in the world, you have to read between the lines to understand the truth and do your own research to understand the true issues or the big picture.

In many cases the President "must lie" to protect what we call "national security" and keep the machine rolling. It is called the "industrial and military complex".

The entire Enron scandel was based on a lie, Enron energy traders artificially minipulated the marketplace so that natural gas and electric rates went up so high that the California economy was ruined. Many factories just closed down since they could not keep factories running when prices doubled and tripled. They just put their executives in jail in the last couple months and this happened 3 years ago.

So telling the truth just is not the way of man, most public relations in business and politics is based on half truths, it is just a matter of getting folks to believe the version that you push, if you can get 60% of folks to believe a lie you win in this world.

In US politics, if you get 30% of folks to believe your spin you win, since there are only a small percentage of folks that even vote.

So lying is a part of our daily lives, everybody wants some, I want some too, I know, that is an old Van Halen song.

Bottom line is truth is with God, not man, but lets not start that thread, religion would ruin the forum here. :D

[mopacfan]

Debunked, I would take that job, since my regular business since the recession of 2000 has forced me to look at getting a job and I have been self employed since 1980.

Things have not been this bad (low wages, high energy costs, no good jobs, corporate cutbacks, sending jobs to China and India) in a long damm time.

Do you want another 4 years of the "Haliburton Administration", maybe if I worked for Houston oilmen I would not have the economic problems like most Americans do!

And you really think Kerry in office will make any damn difference? Then you are living in a dream world. The US is imploding and unless there is some sort of major event, person, etc. that gets us to work together instead of the complete divisiveness that exists, we're on the road to ruin.

"United we stand, Divided we fall" It's that simple.

[mopacfan]

It will be interesting to see how this all turns out. I just wish that it wasnt Bush or Kerry.
Then use your vote for someone worthwhile, take a look at the Libertarians. They're not a bunch of nut jobs the republicrats make them out to be.

[anthonycea]

Well at least John Kerry wants to work with Europe and not against them, now you must know that the European Union is a greater economic power than the US when combining those nations, soon to be a greater military power also.

So unless we find a way to get along in the world community we will continue to have problems.

John Kerry is our best shot at "getting along" with other nations at this point in time.

[SEbasic]

John Kerry is our best shot at "getting along" with other nations at this point in time.

As an outside observer, I would have to agree. The impression that I am given when talking to some of my French relatives, is that of somewhat distaste for Bush.

I understand that the French themselves are not exactly *popular*. I do however believe, that there is a much higher chance for a repeat of the 9/11 disasters in the UK and US (And spain) than in the rest of the EU.

Bush (and also Blair) have upset so many people with their actions, that there is bound to be some kind of revenge attack at some point in the near future.

Personally, (I would like to think that) If Kerry were to gian power, that at least there wouldn't be the *pride* issue in the way.

It is too late for Bush or Blair to go back on what they have done over the last couple of years. #1 because in doing so, they would lose all credibility with the party (It's pretty much already happening to Blair). #2 because they are just too far down the line. It's too late for them to turn back on themselves now.

At least if Kerry came in to power, there would be the opportunity for him to say "OK, that was a mistake - lets move on".

My Two Cents...

SE

[debunked]

if only the popular media outlets would tell the truth - something like REPORT the news not make it! Then people would be less against each other and we wouldn't be on opposite sides of the fence. Every once in a while I will look up CNN but usually just get ticked reading the very slanted news! It makes me sick that so many people believe the garbage without getting facts or at very least getting the other side of a story first.

Kind of like watching Mr. Moores film and taking it as fact. So much as been refuted but most people don't even care ...

I think this will be my last post here in the political thread. I am sure some body who is completely ignorant will start getting really mad at me for pointing (even generally) out things.

[mcdar]

And you really think Kerry in office will make any damn difference? Then you are living in a dream world. The US is imploding and unless there is some sort of major event, person, etc. that gets us to work together instead of the complete divisiveness that exists, we're on the road to ruin.

"United we stand, Divided we fall" It's that simple.

Do you not think that "The US is imploding" is not, in and of itself, reason enough to "get us to work together instead of the complete divisiveness"?

Do you think that the one who lead us to this state, is the one who could lead us out?

In many elections, people have the "so called luxury" of voting for some third party or Independent candidate just to make their displeasure of the two major candidates known.

However, seldom has this country been in a situation where immediate change is so vital that we can i'll afford to cast a vote in a direction that would not help secure the change neccessary.

If you do not think this country is in trouble, you have a little reading to catch up on.

[compar]

Kind of like watching Mr. Moores film and taking it as fact. So much as been refuted but most people don't even care ...
I understand that Michael Moore has offered a $10,000 reward for anyone who can find any factual error in his reporting in the film. Aren't you doing exactly what you accuse the media of, in making a bald face assertion like this without bothering to prove, or illustrate, any of your points.

Now I'm not saying the opinions that Moore expressed where always right -- although I certainly agreed with most of them -- but I am saying every reported historical fact was checked and double checked. He hired experts to do nothing else. And nobody has been able to refute one factual point as being inaccurate or fabricated.

Somewhat unlike Bush's claim about WMD.

[schlottke]

I'd say that Moore's film stands somewhere inbetween "Supersize me" and "Blair Witch Project"..

Filled with some fact, but dozen's of unfounded accusations.

[vprp]

In many elections, people have the "so called luxury" of voting for some third party or Independent candidate just to make their displeasure of the two major candidates known.

However, seldom has this country been in a situation where immediate change is so vital that we can i'll afford to cast a vote in a direction that would not help secure the change neccessary.

I definitely agree that in this year's election, a vote for a candidate like Nader will pretty much be a "wasted" vote. It'll be interesting to see what kind of effect he'll have on the election this year.

[schlottke]

I agree VPFP, Nader would be a wasted vote.

[Owlcroft]

I'd say that Moore's film stands somewhere inbetween "Supersize me" and "Blair Witch Project"..

Filled with some fact, but dozen's of unfounded accusations.Then I reckon you're in for a windfall: just demonstrate any one of the many factual errors you impute to him and walk away with ten grand. Of course, if, like most or all of the critics, you're just passing gas instead of offering reasonably informed commentary, it might be a little harder to get those bucks.

Kerry on the other hand is a complete wuss.Just like most guys who win medals for valor in combat.

I don't reckon that 1% of the population knows anything more about John Kerry than what the Republican party doles out to Fox Nonnews for its daily ration of sound bytes. (Fox, whose slogan is "All the news that illiterates can manage in 12-second bites.")

Kerry suffers a bit from "Al Gore Syndrome": like many intelligent and thoughtful adults, he finds it hard to play Bozo The Clown for the benefit of the cerebrally challenged who cannot understand sentences over 20 words long or individual words of over two syllables, or grasp an idea that isn't pure black or pure white and phrased in a manner best suited for shouting. Apparently, we have now sunk to the level that many Americans find something vaguely disturbing about the idea of an intelligent person being President--our President should, it seems, ideally be indistinguishable from all the good ol' boys hoisting a few down at The Dew Drop Inn. Some can enact the farce more easily than others, especially when they really are Bozo the Clown types. (Not to mention George Bush by name--well, OK, to mention George Bush by name: the guy who can fall off a couch while watching TV, the guy who makes Gerry Ford sound like an intellectual).

Here (http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127/), found in about 47 seconds of Googling, is an example of the difference between what people who watch Fox think they know and what the factual realities are on at least one major issue. The woods are full of lots more like this.

[Ha! Betcha thought no one could get the words "Fox" and "think" in one sentence!]

[anthonycea]

Many are complaining about the mass media, well here is a link from alternative media on John Kerry.

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/19280/

[schlottke]

" just demonstrate any one of the many factual errors you impute to him and walk away with ten grand. "

You called Fox viewers Illiterate; I didn't say they were factual errors, I said many of them were *UNFOUNDED ACCUSATIONS*. You, being one of those intellectuals who can understand more than twenty word sentences should know the difference, right?

"Just like most guys who win medals for valor in combat."

No, nothing like them. Those men are solid in their views, and don't waver in the wind when disgression is placed upon them.

"Bozo the Clown types"

What elementary school did you pick that up at Owlcroft? Seem to like that description quite a bit - using it twice in the same post.

"the guy who can fall off a couch while watching TV, the guy who makes Gerry Ford sound like an intellectual"

You've never tripped or fallen on accident? I'm a fairly good athlete (go google me for 47 seconds...) and have found myself falling off things.. I hardly consider someone falling a bad sign of being a President.

To be honest with you, I'm not even political at all, I just find it amusing to argue...

[compar]

I agree VPFP, Nader would be a wasted vote.
Well all you red necked Republicans can vote for Nader. That would be just fine:D

[schlottke]

Im writing in myself for president, only logical choice... I suggest you all do the same.

Haha

[compar]

George Bush and the entire present administration is so bad, on some many levels, I just can't believe that anyone would want to continue this tragedy.

So Saddam was a bad guy. But a civilized Nations NEVER starts a war. A civilized nation protects itself. A civilized nation goes to the defense of their allies and friends. But a civilized Nation NEVER starts a war.

Dictators and ego maniacs start wars. History shows that Adoph Hitler started the second world war. Ho Chi Minh started the Vietnam war. Saddam Hussein attacked Kuwait and started the first gulf war.

But George Bush started the Iraq war. That ranks him right up there with the other dictators and ego maniacs.

George Bush is undoubtedly the most dangerous man to ever be President of the United States. The Patriot Act virtually suspend your privacy and civil liberties. Put him in power for another four years and you may have no liberties left.

Anthony is on about Google's invasion of our privacy. He has missed the whole point. The patriot act is the real conspiracy. George and his boys want total control. Give them another four years and they may just achieve it. He was put in office the first time by the supreme court rather than the voters. Give him four more years and there may not be any more voting.

He didn't need it the first time. Maybe we should just amend the constitution to elimate Gay Marriage, abortion and the right to vote. And as to separation of church and state -- the very foundation of the US constitution -- who needs that. George is doing God's will. And I'm sure that God will whisper in his ear that there is no need for any constitution so evil and preverted as to separate church and state.

So by all means give him a clear mandate and just watch your what he can do in the next four years.

[anthonycea]

Compar, calm down, John Kerry is winning the DP Election.

I have included the PA in my coverage of privacy and freedom, see the following page and the links within. They have been there for months Bob.

http://www.searchwars.squarespace.com/display/ShowPage?moduleId=27505

[schlottke]

we all have a right to our opinions and I do not want to lose friends over my point of view, that is what the vote and debate is all about, just a vote and a debate, at the end of the day we should all be friends.

[compar]

we all have a right to our opinions and I do not want to lose friends over my point of view, that is what the vote and debate is all about, just a vote and a debate, at the end of the day we should all be friends.
But Schlottke, my friend, the question isn't about being friends, the question is about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

George Bush and John Ashcroft would deprive us all of that. If you have a moments doubt about that just read the Patriot II act. If you have a moments doubt about that, explain why the USA has over 2,000,000 of it's citizens incarerated behind bars. That is approximately a five times higher ratio per capita than all the other nations of the world with the exception of Russia, and it is 50% higher than Russia.

And how about "all men are created equal". Do you think that when 25% of the black male population between the age of 25 to 35 are behind bars that "all men are created equal"? Give me a break. Segregation didn't end in the 60s. The blacks were simply moved from the back of the bus to the prisons.

But George Bush wants to deal with that. He wants to sentence them all to the death penalty. As Governor of Texas he signed the death warrants and had 152 American citizens killed. Never once did he even issue a stay, let alone a pardon or exoneration. I saw him on TV gloating about the number he had executed. In my mind that makes him the largest serial killer in the history of the United States.

George Bush and the people surrounding him constitute the biggest threat to the future of the United States and to global peace and prosperity that we have seen in the last 100 years. This election may be the last chance we have to stop this head long rush to tyranny.

[Owlcroft]

I didn't say they were factual errors, I said many of them were *UNFOUNDED ACCUSATIONS*. You, being one of those intellectuals who can understand more than twenty word sentences should know the difference, right?Right. We intellectuals tend to rely on arcane sources of knowledge, like dictionaries. "Unfounded" means, according to one pretty good one, "not founded on fact or truth"--thus, founded on what is not factual or is not truth. So, just find and prove one of those unfactual or untrue bases for his "unfounded" accusations.

"Just like most guys who win medals for valor in combat."

No, nothing like them. Those men are solid in their views, and don't waver in the wind when disgression is placed upon them.Kerry is "one of those guys who win medals for valor in combat"; so are we saying that Class X is unlike Class X? That a member of Class X is "nothing like" members of Class X? I took a good bit of logic instruction in my day, but not enough to follow that one. (Also: how does one "place digression" on someone or something? Sounds to me like one of those "do not attempt this at home" things.)

"Bozo the Clown types"

What elementary school did you pick that up at Owlcroft? Seem to like that description quite a bit - using it twice in the same post.Google has over 42,000 hits on "Bozo the Clown", so I don't reckon it's a cryptic reference. "Clown" (and "bozo") have long been classic epithets for dunces. (I still recall an amusing science-fiction novel of the near future, in which "news" was delivered on TV by "newsclowns", who wore a long, stringy, fire-red wig as their "badge of office"--whatcha think, Rupert?)

"the guy who can fall off a couch while watching TV, the guy who makes Gerry Ford sound like an intellectual"

You've never tripped or fallen on accident? I'm a fairly good athlete (go google me for 47 seconds...) and have found myself falling off things.. I hardly consider someone falling a bad sign of being a President.Off a couch--while watching TV? We're not talking dexterity here; the media were too polite, or chicken, to openly air the thought, but it was widely enough discussed in private--that the man had very likely just flat-out had more than a few too many that afternoon--if it was only that afternoon.

Help youself: do a Google on <Bush drink OR drunk OR alcoholic>. Sure, most are written by people who don't like George Bush. And? Are Bush supporters likely to say Word One on the matter?

I was not previously, and am not now, attempting some definitive analysis examining the disaster that the Cheney administration (who do you think is President?) has been and is; it is the sort of thing that, like a joke, if you need it explained, you won't get it even with the explanation. It is said that not over about 4% of the American public have not yet made up their minds about whom to vote for. I have neither the patience nor the time to work at convincing any of them--horses, water, you know the bit. It's a poll, and I aired my thoughts.

One of Bush's biographers put it this way: (http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/presidents/george-w-bush/) "There is a group of people who feel that '[the President of the United States should] be smarter than I am on just about every issue I can think of.' But there is also a large group of people who don't feel that way. They want the President, in this modern era, to be something they can relate to. Someone who they don't think is intellectually intimidating. Someone who isn't really lost in the big fog of intellectual ideas and the world of words."God help us all.

[anthonycea]

Ok guys and gals, lets get back to what gets a President elected.

It is always the economy, so lets talk about that.

The stock market (dow jones average) dropped below 10,000 yesterday, this is important, what it means is that the market has no confidence in the current administration.

They stock market does not lie, so the economy is confirmed to be bad by investors themselves.

The Nasdaq at its high was over 5,000, now it is under 2,000, the Nasdaq is the "tech stock" marketplace.

Maybe Google will delay it's IPO until after the election since they want anyone other than Bush elected, this could be a factor in the election, believe it or not.

Low wages, exporting of jobs to China and India, the war, all of these things are hurting the economy in this country. If we continue to export Billions of Dollars when we have a record deficit it can only put us all deeper in debt.

So the trend is down in the economy, this does not look good for Mr. Bush. :mad:

[compar]

Did anyone read the article about the economy in Forbes magazine today? http://www.forbes.com/technology/ebusiness/feeds/ap/2004/08/01/ap1483955.html

I hate to admit it but Anthony just may be right. Apparently George's tax cut for the wealth just don't seem to be working. Funny how you can't trust those rich guys and girls to pump all their money back into the economy. You don't think any of them could be squirreling it away in off shore tax shelters do you?

[Dominic]

Great post Anthony.

The 'trickel down effect' doesn't work - best way is to lift the middle class income so it takes pressure off families where both parents work, this results in one member of the family working less or not working... opening more jobs for the lower class. The social impact (which in turn impacts on the economy) is best measured by levels of employment.

BTW - I went and saw MM's 9/11 movie the other day - wow, no matter which way you vote (yes I know the film has it's critics) it is worth seeing. The thing that shocked me is the protesters actually pelted eggs at his motorcade on the way to inaguration... and the African American members of the house protested the acceptance of the election result because of all the African Americans taken off the voting register... and how Bush family business is tied up with Saudi investors including the Bin Ladens... and... and... go and see it!

[anthonycea]

I have been self employed since I was 18 years old, this is the worst economy I have seen in that span of time. I am 45 now so figure out how long the span is. This reminds me of 1974 when Nixon and the Arabs first rigged the oil market, prices shot up from .25 cents a gallon to $1.50 overnight, they called it OPEC then, they still call it that today, high oil prices will ruin this country, it is the biggest rip off of all, ask our UK friends what they think of this international scam, they will tell you all about it.

We can not export 500 Billion dollars to IRAQ and expect to have money here at home, we are running a 450 Billion deficit at this time, what that means is that this debt must be financed (the government must borrow money so this means interest rates go up in addition to the dollar being devalued), the government must compete with businesses for loans.

With the dollar being devalued because of lack of confidence in the US economy and the government, overseas investors pull money out of the USA.

China is the largest purchaser of mortgage bonds in the world now, they own the debt on your house since they have the money (we import everything from China), not a good thing for us American slaves.

Many of our largest companies are now investing in China, Intel is investing Billions in manufacturing plants in China along with about every other company in the world, they all go where the action is and it is not in the good old USA.

We need to make change before we are all working for and owe money to China.

[ginostylz]

I agree VPFP, Nader would be a wasted vote.
If I voted I'd probably waste my vote on Nader. Why not? I'm not pleased with either candidate.

1.Puppet of the rich
2. A flip Flopper
3. or a complete waste of a vote

I want clinton back :(

[anthonycea]

Do you want 4 more years of recession leading to a possible depression in the economy that our generation has never experienced?

If that is what you want, $ 5.00 gas prices, just leave things as they are, if you want change, vote for change.

We could not do any worse than what we have now :D

Plus your vote on DP won't cost you a dime.

[anthonycea]

GWB makes fun of John Kerry for changing positions all the time, but the following article shows that W flip flops just as much or more on issues.

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/19800/

Want a job, move to China :eek:

[debunked]

GWB makes fun of John Kerry for changing positions all the time, but the following article shows that W flip flops just as much or more on issues.

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/19800/

Want a job, move to China :eek:

I still don't see how people can say that Bush caused the downfall in jobs - that is what you call sheer stupidity. :eek: Get a reality check and look at everything involved.

The same people blame Bush for the 9/11 attacks and I suppose you think Bush is part of Al Quesadia (he he) :confused:

[anthonycea]

Debunked, lets hear your side of the story as to why the economy is not coming back anytime soon?

Maybe you can fill us all in :cool:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This was just published last Friday, the text is below 9/10/2004

The cuts would be part of a program by the Plano, Texas-based technology services company (EDS: news, chart, profile) to shave $3 billion in costs, Chief Executive Michael Jordan said Thursday.

The information-technology company's shares added 59 cents, or 3 percent, to $20.10.

"I think we mentioned that 15,000 to 20,000 incremental people will go out," Jordan said Thursday during an investment conference in New York.

"We said we are going to take 20 percent of our cost structure -- which is $3 billion -- out, and that's the way you do it," he said.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Microsoft and Intel are also sending jobs overseas (this is called outsourcing) so getting a good IT job in America will be almost as likely as finding a pot of gold on the sidewalk during rush hour.

Google is using part time folks to run the company also, low wage positions are the future if you want to work.

Programmers are taking half the pay just to get back into the trade from what they made 5 years ago.

[digitalpoint]

You can argue that the economy is indirectly caused by the president. Jobs, people's spending habits, the stock market, and many other things related to the economy really is not based on anything concrete. What it IS based on when it comes down to it is the citizen's (as a whole) perception of everything.

It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. if people think the economy will get better, then it will, because their actions (spending habits for example) will cause it to get better. If they don't think it will get better, people stop spending their money and start saving for "hard times". Basically if everyone truly believed the economy would be better, then it will be.

Tax cuts and every other "trick" to stimulate the economy are really just to make people believe it will get better. When it comes down to it, the president is a leader of the country. If he can make people truly believe the economy will be better, then guess what? It will be.

[anthonycea]

No one even thinks that it is getting better, the stock market tells no lies.

The Nasdaq is only a fraction of what it was at its high, the Dow has been cut in half.

Wages and benefits are being cut, some jobs like the one I just got do not even offer workmans comp. if you get hurt on the job.

The President has the press fooled, thus the people are fooled also about the future. Read the article below for some light on the way the President can spoon feed half truths to the public through the press.

Long live bloggers.

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/19770/

[debunked]

Shawn's statement is very accurate. People are told by the press the bad news in the economy and believe it and don't spend.

So if the press is 'fooled' then I don't understand your point of view. The press has been saying the economy is bad ever since Bush came into the office. If you look up old papers I would bet some 'predicted' a fall in the economy from the 1st day he took office. Since people are stupid enough to believe anything or everything in a newspaper, they believe that the economy is bad and spend less.


Shawn - you need to get out in that southern cali weather and quite posting so much.

Or come up here to southern Oregon and go on some rapids or buy yourself that hummer and break it in on some of the mountains.

[debunked]

I guess I need one more post to make it an even 100 - Will I go up in ranks now??

[anthonycea]

Debunked, the press does not have to tell anyone anything, a man or woman knows when things are bad by not having a job, not being able to pay their mortgage, not able to buy energy for their homes and cars or not being able to pay for their kids education.

Ask Shawn about the State of California, did they not recall their Governor because of the sorry state of the economy? Who's fault was that (Enron), could it be some Houston Oil Men behind that scam?

Do you remember the Savings and Loan scam when GB's dad was in office?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=savings+loan+scandal&spell=1

Did the Enron scam put a lot of folks out of work, did companies go out of business in California because of high natural gas costs?

Maybe you missed all of that?

[Owlcroft]

The press has been saying the economy is bad ever since Bush came into the office.Yep, same old liars, believing all those official U.S. government figures on employment, income, and all that other stuff that has nothing to do with "the economy".

But, for those interested in what started this thread, who is likely to win in November, I will mention (if no one has elsewhere) the highly useful and interesting site--

http://electoral-vote.com

--which offers daily-updated current status plus projections of the Electoral College vote based on polls as they are released. The guy is obviously knowledgeable about the sort of detail that goes into statistical analysis (which is more than some big-name polling companies seem to be), and, though he makes his own preferences clear, is working very hard to do a completely unbiased, dispassionate analysis of the actual data.

If there is any defect, it is that he uses all polls on a more or less equal-status basis, though his annotations make it clear that some are more reliable and plausible than others. But I guess he didn't want to get into selective weighting or selective use.

Today's (September 11th's) current snapshot shows Kerry 273 to Bush 233 (270 or more wins), with 32 so close as to be uncallable. (Yes, Florida is much of that.)

The projections, which are mathematically calculated (not simply averaged) state by state from the various poll data points, show Kerry 255 to Bush 263, with 20 too close to call, even from the projections. But, as the site owner says, the projections should not be taken too seriously till at least October.

The various Senate races are also now shown, and it currently looks like a 50-50 Senate (counting the independent, Jeffords, as a Democrat, since he normally votes with them). But, as the site maker points out, polls or no, Louisiana has never, ever elected a Republican Senator, so it might end up 51-49 Democratic, taking away the Vice President's tie-breaking-vote significance.

I took a glance at the 20 "too close to call" projections; half were Wisconsin's 10 votes. Wisconsin is today listed "weak for Kerry". A look at the graph and the projection lines suggests the fallibility of the purely-mathematical projection method, though, again, I suppose it beats subjective eyeballing. But, speaking as one who has spent many years eyeballing trend graphs for significance (though not in politics), I'd be inclined to say Wisconsin will stay Kerry. (That doesn't settle anything nationally, because one would have to manually review all 50 states for trends, and by then the cumulative subjectivity can lead to significant error). For one thing, in my opinion, more recent data ought to be weighted more than older data, but that's just my opinion.

My own take on the election is simple: it seems utterly unimaginable that anyone who voted for Gore in 2000 would vote for Bush in 2004, but far from unlikely that some who voted for Bush in 2000 will vote Kerry in 2004.

[H-Man]

I would say the margin of error is +- 25%.

[Owlcroft]

I would say the margin of error is +- 25%.That's an interesting conclusion. The individual state polls typically have margins of error in the 3% range. You can read a very great deal of good sense about polling methodology here:

http://www.electoral-vote.com/info/polling.html
I would be interested in the mathematics you used to derive your conclusion.

[debunked]

Owlcraft, the point is they say the economy is good up to the day Bush came into office, then bam, somehow everything changed overnight. ya right....

I guess pot smoking would improve my senses like it did for Clinton. Turn off CNN and take a look deeper into the facts. Sure the economy is bad at the moment, seems some forgot what happened 3 years ago that also shook up our little world. Also for some (not naming anyone) they didn't have a job the prior 4 years anyways, so what has changed for them?? They can't blame their job loss of 8 yrs ago on the current president?!!

Point of views - Vietnam some guys went and their friends and family supported them even if they didn't support the war, they came back heros. Seems that the hippy crowd that if someone did go, their friends rejected them and then condemned them when they came back, some of those people who I have met over the years are still without many friends and are bitter and angry about everything and believe that the whole world hates them. (exagerated some to give the point)

[anthonycea]

The economy would not be in the shape it is in if it were not for the rich stealing and lying to the citizens.

Enron, Halliburton and all the rest of the Oil/Military theives running us all in to the ground.

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/01/99614.php

[Owlcroft]

Owlcraft, the point is they say the economy is good up to the day Bush came into office, then bam, somehow everything changed overnight. ya right....Owlcroft.

It's sort of annoying to have to respond to people who absolutely, positively will not look facts in the face. I have just made a temporary directory, at--

http://owlcroft.com/temp/
--in which you can find four graphics. Perhaps simple colored pictures will demonstrate what it seems numbers and words cannot communicate to you. But I suspect that, as Simon and Garfunkel sang it, Still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.

I guess pot smoking would improve my senses like it did for Clinton.Boy, there's a trenchant piece of political analysis. It does wonders for your street cred, too.

Turn off CNN and take a look deeper into the facts. Sure the economy is bad at the moment, seems some forgot what happened 3 years ago that also shook up our little world. And it seems that others have no grasp of what happened even prior to 9/11, and of the relatively minor effect it had on the economy, whatever else it may have done. (Of course, its non-related but associated follow-up, a trillion-dollar war against a country that had as little to do with 9/11 as Rwanda, hasn't helped anything--though usually wars boost an economy.) If you are, as it seems, deep into rationalizing and excusing, I suggest you cast about for something less likely to produce giggles in those who can read without moving their lips (as opposed to the Bush constituency).

Also for some (not naming anyone) they didn't have a job the prior 4 years anyways, so what has changed for them?? They can't blame their job loss of 8 yrs ago on the current president?!!Unemployment started rising from pretty much literally the day Bush took office, and the data make that awfully clear. What does your remark have to do with the price of butter in Chicago? Look at those graphs.

Point of views - Vietnam some guys went and their friends and family supported them even if they didn't support the war, they came back heros. Seems that the hippy crowd that if someone did go, their friends rejected them and then condemned them when they came back, some of those people who I have met over the years are still without many friends and are bitter and angry about everything and believe that the whole world hates them. (exagerated some to give the point)Exaggerated a lot to make the point that it has no point.

Can we get clear on something? A President is a hired hand. He is an employee--and the American people are his employer. It is our responsibility to evaluate his and other job candidates' resumes against the requirements of the job. And if the current employee is botching his job, he needs to be fired.

What is the job of a president? In fact, it comprises only a few major tasks. First, as the commander in chief and chief executive, it is his job to assure that the nation is as secure as reasonably possible. When the Clinton administration was transferring out, they tried as hard as possible to make sure that the incoming administration understood that Al Quida was the pre-eminent threat to US security: Clinton expressed that emphatically to Bush in a face-to-face meeting. So, of course, the administration largely ignored Al Quida, since they "knew" that the chief threat was still those nasty old Russians and their missles. Read the 9/11 Commission report if you want to see what was done prior to 9/11.

OK, then came 9/11. Al Quida was known to be headquartered in the Afghan mountains (where it remains, virtually unscathed, to this hour). It was known that Iraq, which was, for all its bluster, running scared from the US and especially from the UN sanctions, which were strangling it, was having absolutely zero to do with Al Quida, having enough problems as was. And it certainly wasn't running any terrorist nets of its own. But finding Al Quida and its chiefs is hard--the cheatful buggers insist on moving around, whereas a country is always in the same place. So, Iraq having lots of oil, let's invade Iraq. Won't all the oil we get pay for the whole deal? The US Secretary of Energy said it would. In the end, he was off by a little, just a few hundreds of billions, but these little mistakes will happen.

But at least we can sleep well at night knowing that the administration is looking out for our defense. Why, just look at the numbers:


What National The Realistic Cost, What the Administration
Protection: Estimated by Experts Has Budgeted
=================================================================================

Basic security upgrades for
subways & commuter trains $6 Billion $100 Million (1.6%)
in our larger cities

Equip all US airports with
explosive-detection machines $3 Billion $400 Million (13%)

Security upgrades at US
shipping ports $1.1 Billion $210 Million (19%)

Radiation portals for US ports
to detect "dirty bombs" in
cargo and containers $290 Million $43 Million (15%)

Help local firefighters to be
prepared for terrorist attacks $36.8 Billion $500 Million (1.3%)

Get local medical crews ready
for terrorist attacks $1.4 Billion $50 Million (3.6%) *

* Emergency medical training grants now eliminated from budget altogether.

Sources of data:

American Public Transportation Association
Fiscal Year 2005 Budget
Government Accountability Office
U.S. Coast Guard
House Apropriations Committee


That is not disgusting or pathetic--it is frightening.

[Aside: How does one achieve monospacing in these forums?]

The simple fact is that we are now far, far less secure as a nation than we were before Bush took office, and even than we were on 9/12--largely owing to the Administrations's serious lack of foresight, a lack they continue to make horribly plain, as those budget numbers show. This nation's behavior, at home and abroad, has been the answer to Al Quida's prayers. We couldn't have done worse if we had asked them for advice. (Well, through Armand Chalabi, we did ask Iran for advice, even if the administration "foreign-policy experts" were too bleeping stupid to know a
con man and Irani secret agent when they met one (despite everyone else in the world knowing the first and suspecting the second).

OK, that's the evaluation for job #1. Now job #2 a president is hired to do is to keep the economy strong and fair.

The current president promised, on taking ofice, to create six million jobs; so far, he is about seven million behind on that promise. When Clinton took office, he inherited a staggering unemployment rate of over 7% from Bush I; over 8 years, he brought it down, on pretty much a straight-line basis, till he handed a historically low under-4% rate to Bush II--who has now run it back up to around 6%. And that ignores two critical data: the very large number of jobless who are no longer counted as "unemployed" because they are considered to have given up actively seeking employment, and the fact that a much larger percentage of the employed than in previous years is making the minimum wage or something not far over it.

But we're doing so well, according to this administration, that despite a trillion-dollar ongoing (and it will be ongoing for years) war/occupation in Iraq (we "won the war" but have no effective military, much less civil, control over a large fraction of Iraq), despite massive cutbacks in funding to everything from schools to Medicare, why, we're so rich we can afford big tax cuts.

Of course, there are a few who are very rich, and--what a coincidence--they're the ones who got the breaks of tax cutting.

President George W. Bush's tax cuts have transferred the federal tax burden from the richest Americans to middle-class families, with one-third of the cuts benefiting people with the top 1 percent of income, according to a recently released government report.

The report said the top 1 percent, with incomes averaging $1.2 million per year, will receive an average $78,460 tax cut this year, and have seen their share of the total tax burden fall roughly 2 percentage points to 20.1 percent.

The third job of our hired hand is to see that domestic tranquillity is preserved in accord with the just principles of the US Constitution. I am getting tired of trotting out the facts here for those too wilfully blind to look them up, so do your own homework here (but a hint to the student: try looking into the treatment by the New York Police of persons peaceably assembled to speak their minds).

While "miserable failure" may have been an amusing Google bomb, it is also a perfectly accurate description of the current employee's job performance. It's pink-slip time.

[anthonycea]

Owlcroft, if we could elect a regular guy as President that would be great, if we could, it seems that you make more sense than Kerry or Bush.

But since we can not elect you, we have to pick one of the Washington insiders here.

Let's face it, Bush stole the election, Jim Bakker and the Chenny Gang along with dear old Dad and Brother Jeb floating votes down the river in Florida put brother Geo and Dick in office.

Now we have the looting of the government going on for the last 4 years and the complete destruction of America as we know it.

We are lucky to even have any free speech left with Ashcroft in power, I would imagine that if these cats get another 4 years we will be no better than the Soviet Union.

Right now we do need change before things get a lot worse, no doubt about it, you can not have the rich stealing money from the poor (that is what is happening) and have any sort of security or an economy that gives folks a fair chance to find the so-called American Dream.

I know the Bush family has the American Dream, but I am afraid that includes freedom to steal Trillions without getting busted.

The truth is, Bush will do anything to get re-elected to keep him and Dick from being investigated and busted.

If they lose you can bet they will be looked at.

[anthonycea]

All of you in California should be aware of the news in this article.

Bush and his buddies in Houston nearly drove you all broke in the Enron SCAM, of overcharging Californian's for natural gas.

If anything, payback is doublefold, vote against the Houston Oil men.

John Edwards is not afraid to tell the truth to the American people, nor am I afraid.

ARE YOU?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1963&e=6&u=/ap/20040914/ap_on_el_pr/edwards_3

[anthonycea]

Important Update

Reserve soldiers are locked up and forced to fight in IRAQ, this war must end as we are sending our own men into a war like Vietnam that can not be won.

Bush runs from his duty but forces others to fight for Dear Old Dad's Vietnam.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002039926_lockdown19.html

One way to put an end to this scam war is to vote Bush and his Daddy out of office folks.

[jebby]

Some great and well researched, well thought out points here Owlcroft and AnthonyCEA. Good stuff. Unfortunately I'm not sure how effective reason is. It seems that many voters are driven by ideology. Something to do with the fact that Bush is an evangelical Christian as if that automatically qualifies him to lead the country. Why do you think that people are so religiously into George Bush?

[david_sakh]

Unfortunately I'm not sure how effective reason is. It seems that many voters are driven by ideology. Something to do with the fact that Bush is an evangelical Christian as if that automatically qualifies him to lead the country. Why do you think that people are so religiously into George Bush?

Logic of the masses for ya :mad:

[anthonycea]

Like the one soldier mentioned, they have no spirit to fight, when you have to lock men up and point guns at their heads to force them to go to Iraq's killing fields you have real problems.

We need to force Bush out, that is what needs force, this is nothing more than his fathers failures coming back to haunt this great nation.

Down with the Bush family, I have had more than enough of their Bullshit. :eek:

[jebby]

I've been keeping track of the vote predictor on http://electoral-vote.com/

It's pretty interesting how the blue states are the ones closest to the rest of the world and the red states are the most sheltered geographically from the rest of the world.

[anthonycea]

Jebby, thanks for the link, is Jebby male or female?

Next, I sure hope your poll is correct, I would sure hate living in America if Bush is elected (or steals another term), I hate the bastards running the show right now. :mad:

[nriweb]

does this vote matter ? :) Its an american election and we are voting from all over the world. :D

[jebby]

I doubt anybody from anywhere other than the US actually voted for Bush.

[Owlcroft]

I've been keeping track of the vote predictor on http://electoral-vote.com/

It's pretty interesting how the blue states are the ones closest to the rest of the world and the red states are the most sheltered geographically from the rest of the world.An interesting observation.

At any rate, it's very important to watch that site daily, because shifts of major scope are now coming fast and heavy as the pollsters go into hyperdrive. It's gone from mildly Bush to mildly Kerry to strongly Bush to moderately strong Kerry within a couple of weeks at most.

What is especially interesting is the Pentagon closing down the web site that allowed Americans overseas to register online to vote. It is widely believed that the seven million or so Americans overseas would predominantly go for Kerry (whose sister is travelling Europe staging voter-registration rallies). But the Pentagon--our national security source--says it can't keep the site secure. Right. It is very, very hard to say which is the scarier prospect: that they're lying, or that they're telling the truth. . . .

[anthonycea]

That is just another Jim Bakker, Bush Senior tactic, just like when they got good old Jeb to float the bags of Democratic votes down the river in the last election Owlcroft.

Don't forget about the Sheriff's association that kept blacks from the polls by blocking off roads in Florida.

The "good old Bush Boy Network" is still in working order, that is why this country is NOT the land of the FREE.

We have GOONS running the government, that is why we need to get rid of the Bush family once and for all from American government.

The Nixon and Kissinger Gang must be put away. They suck.

[nriweb]

does this vote matter ? :) Its an american election and we are voting from all over the world. :D


on second thoughts, ppul from all over the world should be allowed to vote for the US president .. as he has a huge impact on whats going to happen all over the whole world and which country is going to be attacked next ;-)

Maybe a 1:10 value .. 10 non-US votes equals to 1 US vote ..

[debunked]

Then we will get stuck with Kerry if we did that. No thanks, we will vote for our own. Hopefully the military votes don't get blocked like last time.

[anthonycea]

Debunked even you will be better off under Kerry, you can see that IRAQ is a national disgrace, why do you still support failed policies?

The economy is in shambles, the country is Trillions in debt and Bush wants another 3 Trillion that we do NOT HAVE, can you see this light?

[jebby]

I would have thought we could at least have counted on the Republicans to balance a budget once in a while.

[anthonycea]

Oh, they more than balance their offshore bank accounts from the funds stolen from the taxpayers. :mad:

[jebby]

Then we will get stuck with Kerry if we did that. No thanks, we will vote for our own. Hopefully the military votes don't get blocked like last time.

In your opinion, Debunked, why do you think Kerry would win if the world voted? Why would the world not vote for Bush? I'm curious as to your thoughts on this.

[SEbasic]

Because, from this side if the atlantic, all the media portrays Bush as a prat...

That's my opinion of the guy anyway...

I mean, if you go to a client meeting, to remember their name - I sure as hell do, so why should Bush forget the name of foreign ministers...

I mean, come on...

my $0.02

[anthonycea]

If that were Bush's biggest problem SE, I would vote for him, we have life and death issues here for many nations.

We need the help of NATO and the UN to solve this IRAQ war, the only thing we can do is send in another 200,000 soldiers or we will lose the war.

It is simply a war of trying to hold ground that we are not holding at this time, a royal mess.

Plus it will cost Bush his job in the end, you can bet on it. It is really his father's fault if you want a place to put blame.

[SEbasic]

I just typed a fairly large post, then decided to delete it...

I'm not going to start slaggin people off...

But yes, I've had enough of Blair brown nosing Bush. I've had enough of this country spending HUGE amounts of money (Wich is nothing compared to the spend in the US) on wars that CAN'T BE WON.

There are too many fights going on at the moment. If Bush wasn't quite so heavy handed, then they might not be happening at all...

Anthony, I agree with you 100%. Things must change, but unfortunatly, I can't see that happening with either administration (Either here or in the US).

A guy on another forum made a point about how sick he was of going to the supermarket and having to peel away layers of plastic and cardboard just to get to his meal...

We all waste too much (And I am helping to contribute to that waste just as much as anyone else)...

There are countries that could completly change the standard of living that 90% of the people have to endure, just because of the lazy way we all live our lives.

I just don't think that things will change until the Liberal Democrats (I don't know what the US alternative is) get into power...

All governments are the same. They just say it differently...

Personally, I would vote for Kerry, but that is only because I feel that things couldn't get any worse than they are now.

[anthonycea]

SE, the British have a long history in the land we now call Iraq, in fact in the 1920's when they left rule there, they changed the borders and united three enemy nations into one nation and there have been wars ever since.

The modern wars are over OIL POWER (the love of money) so we can not blame the British for modern troubles unless we look way back to the above example.

The bottom line is we both need more insight within our leadership, we need wisdom that is uncommon, most of the time that comes only once in a lifetime.

Churchill had it (hope I spelled his name right) but it is rare in this day and age as leaders are corrupted by bankers and businessmen.

[jebby]

Politicians ARE bankers and businessmen. The Cheney-Halliburten thing would never fly in Canada. There was a big deal here when the guy running for prime minister owned a steamship line. Conflict of interest was the big worry. Why don't americans care about Bush-Oil, Cheney-Halliburten connections?

[anthonycea]

First off the American People did not elect Bush and Chenny, the election was stolen by the Republicans with Bush's Brother Governor in Florida the deciding state.

Second, Americans do not do their own research, but believe bullshit published by propaganda agents of the political parties.

The Halliburton scam is well known, but Bush has folks believing they are safe with him in charge (he and his father are the ones that got us into this mess).

The only way to get out is to defeat the Bush family in this election and all future elections.

No more NIXON boys or Kissinger suckers.

[Such Great Heights]

First off the American People did not elect Bush and Chenny, the election was stolen by the Republicans with Bush's Brother Governor in Florida the deciding state.

Second, Americans do not do their own research, but believe bullshit published by propaganda agents of the political parties.

True .. and ... True.

That's why you must leave the country now, or actually vote for who you want to win, not Bush because you are dumb, or Kerry because you don't want Bush. The lesser of two evils is still evil.
If the majority of America actually votes Bush to stay in office then I see that as a majority I don't want to live with much longer.

[anthonycea]

SGH, are you sure of yourself?

The majority DID NOT VOTE FOR BUSH IN THE LAST ELECTION, did you happen to know the election process itself is fucked up?

[Such Great Heights]

Yeah I know Bush didn't win.
I said if America votes Bush to STAY in office, meaning this upcoming election, then .. blah blah blah.

I know it was rigged, I believe it, and now I've lived through it.

[jebby]

Well if you do leave the country, make sure you still vote. I just sent in my voter registration.

[Such Great Heights]

If I moved to New Zealand (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=3238), I can still vote for a US president?
What if I want to become a New Zealand (http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=3238) citizen (kiwi?) do I still get to vote?
How does that work exactly? :confused:

[jebby]

Depends on New Zealand I think. Some countries make you revoke your old citizenship before they'll let you become a citizen of their country. If not, then you can vote in both countries. You would vote in the United States in the area you most recently lived.

[anthonycea]

Only citizens of the US can vote, if you remain a US citizen living in NZ you can still vote.

If you become a NZ citizen you can not vote in the US elections any longer.

[jebby]

Not true if you still have your US citizenship.

[anthonycea]

Whats not true?

[jebby]

If you have NZ and US citizenship then you can vote in both countries.

[anthonycea]

Duel citizenship voting rights, I do not think that is possible, what if I live in 5 countries, can I be citizens of all 5 countries and vote in all of them.

Prove what you are saying with some links.

[jebby]

It depends on the country. Like I said, some make you revoke your other citizenships before letting you become a citizen of their country. I have dual citizenship. This means full citizenship with all the resulting duties and benefits.

[Dominic]

I'm suprised the UN still exists.

As the US said: we are going to war in Iraq, if you agree with us and want to join us fine, if you don't we don't care. And the UN could not stop the US even if they wanted to.

What is the point of the UN now?

[anthonycea]

Jebby, what other country are you a citizen of?

[jebby]

The country that one the World Hockey Championship, eh? lol :P

[anthonycea]

Dominic, the UN was against this war, now we need their help to get us out of the war. We also need the help of NATO forces and the EU to get us out of this mess.

So if we can not get along with other nations (that is supposed to be the purpose of the UN) we are up shit creek without a paddle.

[anthonycea]

The country that one the World Hockey Championship, eh? lol :P


Jebby, are you trying to make friends on this forum or lose them?

[jebby]

I figured I was safe considering most americans I know don't really care about hockey. :)

[anthonycea]

Jebby, for the last time (without making folks jump through hoops), what two nations do you hold dual citizenships with?

[nriweb]

Dominic, the UN was against this war, now we need their help to get us out of the war. We also need the help of NATO forces and the EU to get us out of this mess.

So if we can not get along with other nations (that is supposed to be the purpose of the UN) we are up shit creek without a paddle.

if Bush thought it cud pull off the war alone (with its so called allies) and went against the UN .. if it had the least self respect why does it go back to UN and ask for help to clean the mess it created ? :confused:

:)

[jebby]

Jebby, for the last time (without making folks jump through hoops), what two nations do you hold dual citizenships with?

Canada. Sorry... I thought it would be more obvious.

[anthonycea]

We all ready know Canada, Jebby, what is the other country?

If it always takes 2 days and 5 questions to get an answer from you, you will not find many folks happy to discuss matters with you on a forum.

You can do a bit better Jebby :)

[SEbasic]

Well, I understood ;)

[Such Great Heights]

Well if you do leave the country, make sure you still vote. I just sent in my voter registration.
The country that one the World Hockey Championship, eh? lol :P

With these two statements I will guess US and Canada, is what Jebby has Dual Citizenship for. Geez. :p

Since there can be several ways to acquire a given country's citizenship, it is possible for someone to be considered a citizen under the laws of two (or more) countries at the same time. This is what is meant by dual (or multiple) citizenship.
The quote above can be found at this Dual Citizenship Page (http://www.richw.org/dualcit/).

And of course more info when searching Dual Citizenship and the country of your choice. :)

[anthonycea]

Great work SGH, if anyone sees Jebby coming, let me know, I want to club him good :D

[Such Great Heights]

hehe, that's silly.

[jebby]

Thanks SGH for clarifying. I guess Anthony missed my post about sending in my voter registration. USA and Canada is indeed the answer. I wasn't trying to evade the questions. :p

[anthonycea]

You seen the next President of the USA tonight world, he is leading in the Digital Point Election and will win in November :D

[jebby]

I hope you're right.

So far the pundits are saying the Kerry is looking more presidential but got some facts wrong. Apparently what the media says about the debate can change people's minds about who won the debate. I bet Rupert Murdoch over at Fox is wringing his hands over that prospect.

[anthonycea]

Jebby, folks always vote with their pocketbooks in the end.

Business in this country has been down for 4 years, even before 9/11 the economy was tanking out.

What the silly bastards from Houston do not understand nor care about is stealing OIL MONEY from us all.

When Bush and Hallibuton (Dick Cheeny) first got into office the price of gas shot up to over $2.30 a gallon.

Then we had the Enron scandal (Bush family friend Ken Lay who still has not done time) that cost the State of California Trillions of dollars in lost production because of the skyrocketing cost of natural gas. Enron traders manipulated the marketplace, RIGGING the markets causing this to happen.

Next, look at fuel costs today, the average wage and benefits are down, jobs are leaving the country, but OIL IS AT RECORD PRICES.

These guys have to go before their greed destroys this country.

The war is just another major reason they must go, it must also end to bring energy costs down or we will go into a worldwide depression.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Lavel]

Recount no way Bush's daddies friends in the supreme court wont let that happen. Did you most of the nation's voting machines are made in Florida and were destroyed due to the Bad weather and Ashcroft wants to delay the election.

[Lavel]

I hope the democrats go out and vote this time. There are two bills to reinstate the draft with cahange everyone 18 and over yes women too., and if your in college don't matter Uncle Sam Wants YOU!! check it and vote no to you state rep. (trying to pass it on the hush while every 1 is watching the election)

[Lavel]

I hope you're right.

So far the pundits are saying the Kerry is looking more presidential but got some facts wrong. Apparently what the media says about the debate can change people's minds about who won the debate. I bet Rupert Murdoch over at Fox is wringing his hands over that prospect.

I agree the US needs Kerry

[anthonycea]

http://www.johnkerry.com/contact/contact.php


President Kerry wants to hear from you, contact him at the above URL

[Lavel]

I have a cool link that questions what actually hit the pentagon. need 1 more post.

[Lavel]

Hey don't want to waste a post so


VOTE 4 Kerry

[anthonycea]

Read the article below before you post that.


Important Update

Reserve soldiers are locked up and forced to fight in IRAQ, this war must end as we are sending our own men into a war like Vietnam that can not be won.

Bush runs from his duty but forces others to fight for Dear Old Dad's Vietnam.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002039926_lockdown19.html

One way to put an end to this scam war is to vote Bush and his Daddy out of office folks.