Google Sandbox

[dfsweb]

I saw another thread about the Google Sandbox and here's my theory on the "Sandbox": I don't think it exists!!

I think it's just a matter of Google going through their quarterly PageRank updates and you finally appear high in the rankings when you have a decent PR. For example, consider this case:

1st Jan: You build a site
2nd of Jan: You start promoting the site and submitting to directories etc.
15th of Jan: Google finds your site and also keeps finding links to your site
31st of Jan: Google indexes entire site

15th of Feb: Google updates PR based on 3 week old cache that shows that you have 5 links (as Google hasn't found any others). Moreover, the three week old cache only contains your home page and no other pages. So, Google awards your site a PR1 (Say). The other sites in your industry have a hefty PR of at least PR5 or higher and they beat you hands down in rankings

You keep continuing your promo work and get 500 links (say).

15th of May: Google updates PR again based on 3 week old cache that shows that you only have 200 links. This could be bacause the cache is 3 weeks old PLUS the fact that Google might not have done a full crawl on some of the sites that have linked to you. You get a PR4. You're still nowhere to seen!!

You whinge about the Sandbox but keep up the hard work!!

15th of August: Google updates again and you get a PR6. You're on top of the rankings and top of the world. You tell your friends that you are finally out of the "Sandbox". :D

This is just my theory anyway, i.e: There is no Sandbox! So, to test it I've created this poll. Now, if my theory is correct then sites should be "released from the sandbox" during a PR update. But, if there does exist a Sandbox then websites should get out of the Sandbox at different times depending upon when they go live or when they are first cached by Google etc.

Please note that I am talking about the internal PR updates which create havoc with the rankings and not a toolbar PR update which essentially does nothing (apart from giving you that warm fuzzy feeling).

P.S: I am of course hoping that I am correct about all this and that my website will miraculously appear in the top 10 once Google update the internal PR (fairly soon)

[Blogmaster]

Build a good site, submit it to DMOZ, the moment it gets into DMOZ, submit to Yahoo! Directory and you'll never experience any delay in rankings.

[dfsweb]

Build a good site, submit it to DMOZ, the moment it gets into DMOZ, submit to Yahoo! Directory and you'll never experience any delay in rankings.

Hmmm. Interesting advice. I manage three sites at my work and I personally own two. None have been accepted in DMOZ (not yet anyway). There are people out there who wait for months to get into DMOZ. I think DMOZ is a bit over-rated to be honest. It is a good link (no doubt), but with all the negative feedback the editors get I am not sure if relying on DMOZ to keep you afloat is a very good idea.

Before this turns into a DMOZ smashing thread (got heaps of those already), let's get back to the Sandbox!

[Blogmaster]

I HATE DMOZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!































Just kidding :D

There are certain sites that Google validates enough to consider your site old and rank worthy, DMOZ is one. Better than getting links in fast is to wait a little bit and see if an editor gets you in. Once you're in, you'll be good to go. Of course, if you can't get in do Plan B: submit to Yahoo! Directory before any other link is coming in. That might do it as well.

[jlawrence]

Well, I'm just about to launch a couple of new sites on brand new domain names - all my other ones have been on stable older domain names. So I'll be able to judge for myself if this so called sandbox exists or not.
If the sites aren't in the top 200 after a month of promoting, then I'll be happy to say that there might be a sandbox.
If I wait until I get the sites into dmoz, then the new domains might be classified as old and established before I come to any conclusion ;)

[Blogmaster]

J, submit to the Yahoo! Directory then before having any links come in.

[kalius]

sitetutor: would it be a good idea to ban robots from the site until you get that link from yahoo Directory or Dmoz?

[DJRubio]

I have never experienced it!
I can't say though if it's because it doesn't exist. I launched my last site in october (the domain was "in construction" since september), and get first page listing in the 3 majors just a few weeks later. Never dropped after that and still improving ranking on a lot of keyword phrases.
Lucky? I don't know. Or like Sitetutor says, there should be a way to avoid this so called sandbox effect. I'm sure there's a way.
If the sandbox effect exist, shouldn't be the same effect for everyone??


Just askin.

[TechEvangelist]

The only thing that has been consistent about G for almost six months is their inconsistency, so it would not be the same for everyone.

I think they have injected a randomness factor into their algorithms just to keep the SEO world guessing.

[DJRubio]

I think they have injected a randomness factor into their algorithms just to keep the SEO world guessing.

It seems like! If not, it would be to easy...

[kalius]

I think it can be some kind of overoptimization penalty. I'm thinking of doing a test site with really crappy optimization but a clear subject. Get links with crappy anchor text like: "click here". Then after Googlebot finds it optimize a bit, get some better links (but not yet for my target keywords). After each gbot visits again optimize a bit more and more. IF the site ranks well after 2 months or so I think it can be said that it defeats the sandbox.

[Blogmaster]

sitetutor: would it be a good idea to ban robots from the site until you get that link from yahoo Directory or Dmoz?
good idea. Since Yahoo! only takes a week, it wouldn't be necessary.

[longcall911]

The only thing that has been consistent about G for almost six months is their inconsistency, so it would not be the same for everyone.

I think they have injected a randomness factor into their algorithms just to keep the SEO world guessing.
I agree wholeheartedly......

Some lucky sites seem to receive a much higher than expected reward in PR, and some sites for no good reason are dropped from the index.

I beleive that G is engaged in a war against spammers, and that inlcudes an attempt to create chaos.

[Blogmaster]

Some lucky sites seem
I don't believe in luck. there is always a reason ... just gotta find it :cool:

[kalius]

I don't believe in luck. there is always a reason ... just gotta find it :cool:

Very good, Google and MSN are just algo's. Yahoo too but I have heard it gets hand edited. You just need to beat an algo, I wonder how many SEO's have some kind of reverse engineering testing ground...

sitetutor: Even if its a week I wouldn't take my chances with Google these days... I'm going to completely redesing my major money making site( :D major for me ok) , instead I will do another site on the same subject (it will be very different so hopefully no dupe content penalty ), and try your method + banning robots until I get dmoz or yahoo. If it dosn't work ill be knocking at your door!!! :D j/k .

[Blogmaster]

Kalius, it does work! But like I said, it depends on DMOZ. They have a ton of power which is why we have so many DMOZ threads.

[Jez]

J, submit to the Yahoo! Directory then before having any links come in.

Will a link from Yahoo! Directory show as a backlink? Looking at one of their links it doesn't look like it will.

http://uk.srd.yahoo.com/S=17230271:D1/CS=17230271/SS=38931170/*http://www.example.co.uk/

I don't have a site in it so I have never looked to see if it shows as a link.

[mopacfan]

I have one site in the UK that I think may be in the penalty "sand" box but I'm not sure. Based on it's status, I belive it is but obviously I have no way of knowing for sure.

[dfsweb]

I beleive that G is engaged in a war against spammers, and that inlcudes an attempt to create chaos.

Or, maybe we give Google too much credit. Maybe their programmers are clueless and the incorrect "link:" results, inconsistent toolbar PR values, "sandbox" etc. are all there because they can't get their sh$% together! :D

[NeoGen]

I had my domain alldotnet.com in sandbox for about 6 months. Along with that I had another site was in sandbox too.

I was not paying attention to alldotnet domain and was almost un-touched for some time.

Around two months back, I created a directory at alldotnet, placed google ads, used that as signature in some of the forums. With in 10 days the site was out of sandbox and in the latest PR update it got a rank of 2.

For the other site, I searched the domain on google and left a feedback at:
http://www.google.co.in/quality_form?q=domain&hl=en&lr=

Within 2 weeks the site was back in google and in the recent PR update, it has been ranked 3. BTW, this site doesn't have any google ads and didn't used this domian in any of my forum signatures.

So not sure what worked, but it worked.

[bentong]

Build a good site, submit it to DMOZ, the moment it gets into DMOZ, submit to Yahoo! Directory and you'll never experience any delay in rankings.

site is being listed on dmoz & yahoo directory but never seen any rankings on serps for its main kw?

[Blogmaster]

was it indexed in the search engines before it got listed in DMOZ and Yahoo! Directory?

[rubenmajor]

For the other site, I searched the domain on google and left a feedback at:
http://www.google.co.in/quality_form?q=domain&hl=en&lr=


I wonder if this would make any impact upon getting a site out of the sandbox. What did you tell them?

[yarman]

dmoz is horible..screw them, you don't need them to get into google. i started my home page, and spread links to my page around the internet with key words being the hyperlink text, and i was on google top result with meta tag description within a month. AVOID DMOZ AT ALL COSTS!!! they will screw up your site description and then you can't change it because google uses their description in place of meta tags!!!!!!! seriously ....

[Blogmaster]

I agree Yarman, and was referring to a few examples I have seen where they didn't screw up the sites' listings. They have a lot of power but what I was referring to was the sandbox effect and how it can be avoided by Google first discovering your site thru a DMOZ listing. That is how much power DMOZ has over Google listings, no lie.

[Blogmaster]

Or, maybe we give Google too much credit. Maybe their programmers are clueless and the incorrect "link:" results, inconsistent toolbar PR values, "sandbox" etc. are all there because they can't get their sh$% together! :D
Maybe Google's reason is something like this: We have no directory and DMOZ is the biggest one and for the lack of anything better and because of us being overwhelmed with spam results, in the bigger scheme of things they help more than they hurt.

Then again how many complaints has Google received about DMOZ? DMOZ itself seems to block all complaints and AOL doesn't get enough. Until the issues are taken to the parties in power, it will be in the hands of the head editors in DMOZ.

[dfsweb]

Around two months back, I created a directory at alldotnet, placed google ads, used that as signature in some of the forums. With in 10 days the site was out of sandbox and in the latest PR update it got a rank of 2.

This is the other thing I was think about. Wouldn't it make sense for Google to ensure that websites that contain Adsense ads appear higher in the rankings than sites that don't?? I mean, the higher your site is in the rankings, the more traffic you get, the more clicks you get, the more money Google makes, right? So, maybe your site suddenly climbed the charts because of Adsense. :eek:

[mizt]

http://roberttaft.com/no_filter.htm

If that is the rankings without the sandbox filter my bank account is going to increase drastically when I get out of then sandbox. Don't think it is though. Another interesting note during the pr update for a series of 3 days I was in the top 6 in google before and after that im not in the top 1000. People who do not believe in the sandbox explain this?

[dfsweb]

http://roberttaft.com/no_filter.htmPeople who do not believe in the sandbox explain this?

Maybe it's a bug that even the Google PhDs can't fix!! :D

Consider this: If I were to introduce a search engine called "Bugle" (say) :D and your site's rankings did the whole "Bugle Dance" for days at a strech, the "site:" command did not give appropriate results etc. Then, I introduce a "Bugle Bar" that gives each site a rating and then, I don't update it for months and months. And when I do, the values are not correct anyway. Would you give me the same credit?? (i.e. dfsweb's probably just doing all this to create chaos, confuse SPAMmers and protect his search engine). :D

I think we give Google too much credit for the things that work as well as the things that don't work. It's about time we emailed them and said "Hey, If you create a product or feature, make sure it works!"

[NeoGen]

I wonder if this would make any impact upon getting a site out of the sandbox. What did you tell them?

I think I wrote following:

"I was searching for this "domain.com" on google, but google doesn't show the listing and results for this "domain". Does this mean they are not good and its a bad site and I should not do business with them.

Thanks"

Again I am not sure, what clicked to take this domain out of sandbox.

[rubenmajor]

So it seems that coming out of the sandbox is a matter of an, instant, overnight result.

Has anyone noticed otherwise? Perhaps a site which had the penalty applied, but slowly and steadily climbed its way to the top?

[Blogmaster]

To the idiot who left this comment "Nonsense. My site is evrywhere yet I am snadboxed. Keep you're head in the sand" with a blue rep (no-point).

I was referring to how a site is found initially and not where it is now.
If your site is found thru a random links page vs a DMOZ listing, chances are you'll be sandboxed.

please, people like you need to read or hire a professional seo.

[DarrenC]

Strange but Ive been helping a mate out with his golfing site, it's been live on Google for about 2 months, it's a free domain, and he's not gone into the sandbox yet. Only has one link (from my site)

It's the first time I've seen a site not go into the sandbox. The keyword term is not competitive at all, and it's only a hobby site..

[rubenmajor]

To the idiot who left this comment...
please, people like you need to read or hire a professional seo.

I don't know who you are referring to, but you don't need to say things like this in this forum. I have always respected the members at DP for their courtesy and open-mindedness, esp for newbies and I think your comments go against the very spirit of DP. :(

[Blogmaster]

Not at all, Ruben. That comment was left in my rep box and clearly states that the one who wrote it didn't read what I was saying. He obviously took the time to give me some anonymous something but not to read thru the information I gave him.

That is ignorance and has nothing to do with the level of expertise.

[rubenmajor]

OIC, my mistake, I think I might have misunderstood you. :eek:

[Blogmaster]

No problem :)

Once again: I have seen a few cases in which the sandbox has been avoided completely. Around 10 cases. In 8 of those cases my friend (who owns a pretty good seo firm) has instructed his clients to get no incoming links to the brandnew sites.

In Google's eyes those sites did not exist. He managed to get those sites into DMOZ and immediately he got them some rankings (DMOZ description and title were just right).
It seems to me that Google puts a lot of weight on how a site is first found.

I have heard similar things about getting a Yahoo! Directory listing first but haven't actually seen anything first hand.

Mike

[rubenmajor]

Now check this out. my website is currently getting out of the sandbox for one term, "roommates online," however, other search terms, such as "roommates," "roommate search," etc... are still in the sandbox for G. How can this be possible? The url is http://www.roommatesonline.net

I use the term "getting out" because it was not verified on all datacenters as being in the top ten and it was in and out of ranking as well for about 4 days.

I think this might provide some insight into exactly what the sandbox is. The speculation has been that G is penalizing links, but it seems to me that there is something more than link penalization. I believe that link penalization with regard to the specific keyword used would be more appropriate.

[Blogmaster]

Ruben, could it be that some of the best links that you have coming in use "Roommates Online" as the title tag since that is the actual name of your site?
That is something DMOZ and Yahoo! Directory would do which does explain it if it's the case.
Google seems to validate terms given from their most reliable sources. I would focus on getting links from important sites (sites with rankings, lots of incoming links etc.) preferrable related or semi-related (such as real estate).

Those links can come into pages other than the home page and often those wind up being the ones ranked for the additional terms.

[rubenmajor]

This is probably true. But, what about the individual word "roommates" vs "roommates online?" Obviously the latter is a more competitive term. Would that not have bearing on the SERPs. As well, why is the latter term sandboxed (no where to be found in the SERPs) and the former not?

What interests me, not just for my site, but as far as G is concerned in is if and how it decides when a site should be allowed to come out of the sandbox for a particular keyword.

[Blogmaster]

"roommates online" will lead to "roommates" with time, links and more links and a structure with content based around that term. In your case I believe it is not enough links and enough time. Gradual growth should get you there from what I see...

[dfsweb]

I've just received some anonymous feedback and a comment for this thread:

"If your site was in it you would know it exists. Easy to claim everyone is mad just because you can't see it."

It would be good if people could sign off their feedback, so you know who it's coming from. Anyway, my response:

I never said that "everyone was mad". I just gave my theory on the Sandbox since everyone who comes out of the sandbox claims to miraculously come out overnight. And just fyi, my sites are also nowhere to be seen in the SERPs. I have a PR3 and a PR5 site. I would have expected the PR5 to be in the top 100 (at least) for some terms. But, it's nowhere to be seen.

So, I am still going to stand by my theory until Google perform an internal PR update. As, IMO Google have updated the toolbar but not the internal PR as yet. So, I do believe that "coming out of the sandbox" is just a matter of having a high enough PR and a high number of IBLs as compared to your competitors for a given keyword. If you are high enough, you're out. If not, you're not. This is why websites might have to wait for 2-3 updates (quarterly) to come out. This would explain the 6-8 month waiting period.

[Blogmaster]

It depends on factors such as what sites are linking to you, what their content is about, how they link to you and so on. It is very hard to explain but as long as you keep plugging away with roommate related sites, you will get the terms you are trying to get. My focus would be on natural growth.

Let's say you are the best website to find roommates, roommate search, roommates online.

That would mean a ton of web sites will link to you such as student sites, appartment rental sites etc.

The best thing to do would be to get links in ALL variations such as
"search for your roommate", "find a roommate online", "roommates in Los Angeles" (linking to the L.A. page on your site).

You should cover all bases possible and that is how you will reach the broadest base of web surfers. Don't nitpic on specific anchor texts too much, just get the links from good semi-related pages of good sites and have some roommate related text on and possibly around your links as well.

Mike

[stephenmunday]

Site Tutor has an interesting theory. But which takes longer? To get into DMOZ r to have the site go through the sandbox period....

At least if you are getting links from other sites, those links can be busy driving traffic to you, even if Google is not.

I would still prefer to go through the SB than to wait on the whim of a DMOZ editor.

[Web Gazelle]

Burbon update let me out but I just noticed I am nowhere to be found again. Hope it is temporary.

[reddoxster]

Seen Adobe's site? PR10. OfCourse lots of others have got 10 but still....