Best Copywriting Course from an IM perspective?

[JordanLH]

I was wondering what the best copywriting courses where out there. Does anyone have "Breakthough Copywriting"? Any other suggestions? Thanks so much.

Jordan

[marketjunction]

I doubt there is a "best." Every single one will have empty spots, because the field has too much information.

Many of the same rules of non-Internet copywriting apply. Your visitor is still a human being. I see a lot of people who think writing a specific way has recently evolved for the Net, when in reality it's simply style taken from copywriting and journalism (for instance, bullet writing).

If you look at websites selling info products, they are one long sales letter. This is copywriting. In fact, look at the website for the item you mentioned. That's traditional copywriting.

[Lyndoman]

mj, whilst I agree there is no one course that is the magic bullitt. There are people that should be listened to and studied from a copywriting view.

Being new to copywriting I have just discovered John Carlton, who seems to be one of the most respected copywriters in the business. Rather than follow a course why not follow a person, read everything they have ever wrote and listen to everything they have ever said and study it. That is the path I am taking.

The dude even has a blog.

[marketjunction]

Correct. I have been in the copywriting field for some time. I have many books in my library on all aspects of writing, marketing and so forth.

I am just pointing out that there's no one perfect course. You have to start somewhere, but you should never end at the same place.

If you are going to buy someone's course, see what their credentials are. If they claim to make $x, see how much is a direct result of the copy and not other factors. Also make sure you get a guarantee. Any respectable course will give you at least 30 days to check everything out.

[old_expat]

Many of the same rules of non-Internet copywriting apply. Your visitor is still a human being. I see a lot of people who think writing a specific way has recently evolved for the Net, when in reality it's simply style taken from copywriting and journalism (for instance, bullet writing).

Agree 110%

I really get annoyed reading posts about the "huge difference" between writing for print (mags and journalism) and the web.

A perfect example is on one of my sites. My bar and restaurant reviewer for pattayai.com (http://www.pattayai.com/), a retired UK journalist, had never "written for the web." Have a look and tell me how hugely inappropriate for the web his writing is.

[Lyndoman]

So if we are agreed that there are no "perfect courses", what are the best imperfect courses.

Some of them are very, very expensive. And so it would be best to get reccomendations.

[marketjunction]

LOL. There is no best imperfect course. ;)

Actually, that's a personal matter. Are you completely new to copywriting? Have you had any experience? If so, how good are you?

If you are brand new, don't run out and spend $1,000 on some course. Spend a few dollars on a couple intro books and see how you like it and what you learn. You will also learn what you need to know when looking for more education.

[Buildingbodies]

I enjoy writing more so for entertainment than selling and because of that, my sales page was not converting. Actually I wasnt even sure if I was having an ok conversion rate untill I did some asking.

Anyway, I tried reading some VERY thick books and gave up, I wanted to blog and sell products, not spend hours copywriting so I went looking...and could afford a pro.

Now I am not saying that this is perfect or that it in anyway would be better to or equal to a professional, but if you just want to see if you made some glaring mistakes, or used some very "tainted words" glyphius is a great little piece of software. It lets you scan you text and shows you that "BUY NOW!" is not as effective as "purchase online"...that sort of thing

[swoop]

...if you just want to see if you made some glaring mistakes, or used some very "tainted words" glyphius is a great little piece of software....
What makes me nervous about that software (http://www.glyphius.com/glyphius.html) is that it accepted the misspelling of mathematically on the webpage at least 3 times, including within the text it was supposed to be correcting.

[caseybyshop]

What makes me nervous about that software (http://www.glyphius.com/glyphius.html) is that it accepted the misspelling of mathematically on the webpage at least 3 times, including within the text it was supposed to be correcting.


It's not designed as a spell checker, It just rates each word, a misspelling will just be rated as 0. I use it frequently and it really does help get a handle on what a good piece of copywriting is.

[VideoChat]

What makes me nervous about that software (http://www.glyphius.com/glyphius.html) is that it accepted the misspelling of mathematically on the webpage at least 3 times, including within the text it was supposed to be correcting.
I noticed that too, but it has been fixed already on one link
http://www.glyphius.com/
glyphius is not a spell checker.

Does anyone else have feedback on how well this software works?

[lisa3876]

If you're trying to write better sales copy, the "Net Writing Masters Course" is the best hands down. http://netwriting.sitesell.com/

[marketjunction]

If you're trying to write better sales copy, the "Net Writing Masters Course" is the best hands down. http://netwriting.sitesell.com/

From the sales copy:


It is the only book about Netwriting that covers both PREselling and selling (every other book on Netwriting focuses only on writing to sell -- this itself is a reflection of that "starting-at-the-end" philosophy).


Um, what? Oh wait, the trick is the word "netwriting." There are plenty of books on sales and copywriting that dive into the whole experience (promise, picture, etc). BTW, the copy on that site is full of holes and raises red flags all over the place. If that's indicative of the course material, stay away.

I guess this thread exposed the problem with asking for the "best" of anything. Every response is limited by experiences. Do you want a little Internet writing course (like the one mentioned above) or you are you looking for professional-grade eduction?

[tiredofbroke]

has anyone looked at or taken the artists and writers institute course? it is indorsed by copywriters like Robert Bly (who has written several of the indespensable books in my library). it costs $497. Here's a link: www.thewriterslife.com

any comments are welcome. thx

[YMC]

Not a suggestion for a course or software, just some food for thought...

Writing to sell is not the same as writing to inform. This is by far the biggest mistake I've seen among web writers. Writing to inform simply describes/tells a story. Writing to sell informs and more importantly has a call to action.

However, give the reader a call to action - don't make them deaf in the process.

As a previous post pointed out, a critical eye is the most powerful tool of any copywriter. Did you miss that? It was there.

Rather than spend good money on courses and materials, I would start by reading blogs and forums where some of the more successful copywriters hang out. Micheal Fortin's forum comes immediately to mind.

That forum is quite interesting as you will quickly learn that even the experts don't agree on what way of writing copy is the "right way".

The good and bad news is there is no bag of tricks to learn that will work for every project. Each piece has to be evaluated for its intended message and audience. Fail to do that and no matter how well you write you will rarely, if ever, make the sale.

[marketjunction]

If you want to get technical, copywriting is the art of writing copy for marketing & publicity. Many people use the term, wrongly, to describe journalism or general article writing. That's the main problem with some of the threads.

For instance, if you are writing an article on how to plant flowers for a paper, magazine or website, it's not copywriting--it's article writing. However, if you were to write that piece as a selling tool for a product/service, it can be considered copywriting. An example would be writing an article on how to plant flowers using a special tool that you happen to be selling.

In copywriting, when you write to "inform", you are writing to brand something. For example, writing an ad that shows a Mac with the copy, "Everyone loves a Mac." There's no call to action, because it's a branding piece. See "Soft Sale."

As to audience, you shouldn't even think about writing until you know your intended audience in great detail. "People that use computers" is not good enough. You need specifics.

[Lyndoman]

Would anyone ever consider shelling out $2,499 for John Carltons' course? From what I have read he seems to be the hottest copywriter on the web.

[marketjunction]

Nope.

There are more experienced copywriters teaching for less. Also, there comes a point when it's just overkill. At some point, you either have what it takes to be a copywriter or you don't.

If I knew absolutely nothing, here's what I might do:

1. Buy the top 20 copywriting books (used condition) from Amazon.com - Cost $200-$350

2. Take a course from a respected copywriter (real word one) that's under $700. If that's not an option, I would take a course in copywriting from my local college (university or community). Cost: $150-$300

3. Practice what I learned.

Here's a tip. Never buy something that's priced solely on what you "could" end up making. For example, some guy selling a program for $5,000, because you could use it to make thousands more. That's foolish.

[glennhefley]

Would anyone ever consider shelling out $2,499 for John Carltons' course? From what I have read he seems to be the hottest copywriter on the web.

I wouldn't. Carlton is self proclaimed "hot" (as any writer is), but why would you do that? I learned to write copy for the web by experience and using web tools.

People say there isn't a difference between writing for magazines and writing for the web, and that is just silly. I am simply stunned by the amount of posters on this forum that feel there isn't a difference. Some are even violently apposed to the fact that for every medium of writing, the style and skills are different.

To me, saying that writing for a magazine (copy or article) is the same as writing for a web site-- is just like saying that writing a script for a movie, is the same as writing a script for the stage. Or writing a novel is just like writing 12 short stories about the same characters. The idea is so far out of touch that it borders on the hilarious, and if it wasn't so prevalent, I would ignore it, but I have been reading it for several days now.

A good point in this thread that was brought up is that copy is copy, not article writing, so let's stay there. Be clear here that we are talking about copy that sells, not copy that informs.

Copy that sells on the web is

Found by web searchers
Read by web searchers
Acted on by web searchers


The same copy might be used in a magazine as well. I'm not saying there aren't similarities, but there are similarities between a Cigarette racer and a Yacht as well. Both are expensive, both show class and style. Both float. Owning either one will probably get you laid. The similarities are staggering, until you see them on the water.

The water in this case is the reader. Let's take an example here, since it was asked above by a poster to take a look and see if this writer's ability was web appropriate.
I really get annoyed reading posts about the "huge difference" between writing for print (mags and journalism) and the web.

A perfect example is on one of my sites. My bar and restaurant reviewer for pattayai.com, a retired UK journalist, had never "written for the web." Have a look and tell me how hugely inappropriate for the web his writing is.

The fact is that if this website used an experienced web writer, his traffic would be triple what it currently is, and his readership would double.

Okay, let's take a typical example off that website:
http://www.pattayai.com/review-food-pit-stop-pizza.htm

Nothing wrong with the article, you might expect to see it in either a magazine (which apparently the writer is most experienced) or on the web.

If this is sell copy, which it should be, it falls miserably flat. I am briefly informed, but not emotionally involved. I am versed in the restaurant, but not driven to try it out. Again, this could happen with web or magazine. Whether it is sell copy or intended to be just a review is really not the point. It isn't written for the web, it is written for a newspaper or magazine.

Where it falls short for the web is:


No web site build
No other page referral
No sell for the web site as a whole
No depth of information
No referral to more information
No need to return
No reader involvement
No active voice


You can get away without those things in a magazine, especially as a staff writer, or restaurant reviewer, but for content on the web it kills the page.

I'm not saying that his writing isn't good... in fact it is, but he isn't writing for the web, his focus is on his experience, writing restaurant reviews. He did exactly what he was hired to do and did it well. He made a static, stand-alone page.

The confluence creating this page is; he is an experienced writer with a long track record and the website owner is not educated in web marketing so doesn't understand the difference between the yacht and the cigarette racer. They both float and are well designed but ... this one isn't going as fast, and that one isn't going as far, and he doesn't know enough to ask why.

He's getting laid, so why does he care?

I could write a book on the lack of "web ability" between this review and a review created by a web writer (and in fact that isn't a bad idea), but let's just take one aspect and really look at it (if you aren't up for the read, then just start posting your debates now).

No other page referral

You hardly ever see someone without real web knowledge do this one. If you see this aspect used, then you found a good, informed web writer. Not just a copy writer.

Linking to another page inside the content of the article, the SEO will tell you, helps the website as a whole get indexed by search engines, and believe it or not, they are right on this one. But that's SEO stuff, and common knowledge for web owners.

What it also does is promote a second page view by the reader. Let's add a line to the beginning of this article:

If you want to get away from the traditional food of Thailand, such as Thai Inter Express, (http://www.pattayai.com/review-food-thai-inter-express.htm), just down the street is Pit Stop Pizza ... blah blah blah.

Now we've done some real effective things. First off, we have captured the interest of a reader by contrast. If this was the first page viewed on this website, and the reader was more interested in a Thai Food restaurant, than going all the way to Thailand and getting a Pizza, we have linked him to a page for that style of dining instantly.

If the reader has already seen that page, he'll know that this restaurant is very close.

If the reader is going through pages, this link may get him to see another one.

If the reader wants more information about restaurants in the same area, to plan a week of dining he has the information right there.

There are several other enhancements to the review this simple change does, but this isn't a book, so let's move on.

You may say "But Glenn, the menu area does that" ... so what? It doesn't do it as effectively as putting a link and referral directly inside the text of the article, and a web writer knows that. Hell its second nature to enhance the website you write for.

What else does this do? It tracks readers through page views from page views, by giving them a path. This is for your Analytics program. (remember, this is the web, visitor page tracking is important. I know magazine owners would give their right arm to know the true reading path of their readers ... if you don't know what I'm talking about here, then get a book because it is really important stuff).

It limits page bouncing (http://www.glennhefley.com/?p=41), by giving a direct "advised" path to another page on the same website.

Websites are, for the most part, static information. New articles are posted all the time ( I get that), but once posted, they are there for the duration. The reader must be directed to those other articles for the website to grow.

Now, that is just one aspect of web writing (from the long and incomplete list I put above) that this "experienced content writer" didn't do for his client. He probably didn't even think about it, or any of the others. Never crossed his mind.

Content and Copy writers for the printed world think in matters of the article or the content sale. They may, very rarely, think in terms of the issue or the branding of the magazine/newspaper they are writing for.

Web writers think in terms of the whole website they are writing for and the activity of the readers. It is like comparing 2 dimensions to three.

Yeah, you are getting laid, but by whom and for how long?

The fact is that if this website used an experienced web writer, his traffic would be triple what it currently is, and his readership would double.

I'll even post the challenge, that if the owner of this site would edit each of those reviews and put in this single aspect I've pointed out, on each of his pages, he'll increase his page views by %50 in three weeks. Just write a quick little blurb about some other page (like I did above), don't worry about how good it is, just refer to another restaurant, with a valid reason for going there, or perhaps being interested, and the link. That's it. Just that little, single thing...

Then come back here and tell me if you are getting laid or doing it yourself.

[Lyndoman]

First, thanks for the time that people have taking to post info here.

I wouldn't. Carlton is self proclaimed "hot" (as any writer is), but why would you do that? I learned to write copy for the web by experience and using web tools.

I do not have enough knowledge to know whether he is hot or not, but I am reading a lot of other top copywriters and marketers who say he is. Gary Halbert for instance.

I realise a lot of these dudes are mates and there is a bit of mutual back running going on, but he seems to be quite successful and has worked on some huge projects.

I am interested in what people here think are great copywriters to follow. I have taken Marketjunctions' advice and spent $60 on copywriting books. When I have read them I will buy some more.

On the webcopy vs dead tree copy, I read my Sunday Papers a lot different to a blog and so I would expect copy to take that into account. However, spinning a yarn and telling a story never changes. But the medium can have an effect on style.

glennhefley
I don't understand how you can learn copywriting from webtools. Trial and error, learning by implementation sure. But what web tool can teach you how to get your readers juices going and make him pull out his wallet and give you money.

I've been listening to Carltons' podcasts and he seems to know what he is talking about. I particularly like his tip on "imagine people are walking around out there with your money in their pockets, it's what you write that will get it back." I paraphrase.

[old_expat]

Yeah, you are getting laid, but by whom and for how long?

Pretty rude comment, but I'll answer your comments as I own the site you have been ridiculing .. pattayai.com (http://www.pattayai.com).

The fact is that if this website used an experienced web writer, his traffic would be triple what it currently is, and his readership would double.

Maybe, maybe not.

I'll even post the challenge, that if the owner of this site would edit each of those reviews and put in this single aspect I've pointed out, on each of his pages, he'll increase his page views by %50 in three weeks. Just write a quick little blurb about some other page (like I did above), don't worry about how good it is, just refer to another restaurant, with a valid reason for going there, or perhaps being interested, and the link. That's it. Just that little, single thing...


Well, if you are that confident .. YOU make the edits, I'll add them to the pages and post the stats. Then you can say, "I told you so!"


Then come back here and tell me if you are getting laid or doing it yourself.

Well, as I said, I won't use that language .. but I will post the results .. how about the traffic for July and the traffic for September

[glennhefley]

glennhefley
I don't understand how you can learn copy writing from webtools. Trial and error, learning by implementation sure. But what web tool can teach you how to get your readers juices going and make him pull out his wallet and give you money.

Out of all that, this is the question you want to ask?

Ok...

You make it sound like trial and error are something you can do without. That if you learn "real copy writing from a pro" you are not going to have to worry about it.

Sweet!

I'll tell you something for nothing, Experience is that thing you get right after you needed it.

Most web marketers call it Path to Sale, but really "Sale" doesn't have to be the goal when you are learning to write on the web.

Put your 'sale', your goal, as a response you want to get from the reader. (this way you can use your own blog or website as your chalk board).

Let's just put it on clicking on a link to start, and then move to signing up for a news letter. In this day of age, getting someone to give you their email address for your newsletter is just as difficult as getting them to buy something.

Sign up for Google Analytics, if you don't already have a good Analytics program on your website.

Write an article with an intention. (your goal, whatever you want to have happen when someone reads that article).

Use your Analytics program to monitor the following aspects of that article
1) bounce rate (means they hit the page and left in under 10 seconds)
2) on page time (were they there long enough to read the full article)
3) where did they go next? (did they click on the link, sign up, buy?)

You can read and write and guess all you want, but analytics programs tell you (in sometimes rather stark clarity) how you did. I don't want to guess that something works for my clients, I want to know it worked. I want to see what I wrote, sold items. I want to see an increase in traffic, and know exactly why that traffic increased.

Yes, there are excitement and energy words you need to know, beef is more tasty than meat, 30 minutes is shorter than a half-hour, etc. You never use the word 'quality' in copy, it slows down the energy. All well and good, and can be learned from your $60 in books. Those are basics, that's just copy.

Learning what works for web copy takes a bit more. Nothing is static on the web, nothing cut and dry. The readers change, you have a greater influx of cultures. You also have several design and intention issues to deal with.

Knowing the basic rules is necessary, but using Analytic tools will show you where you need to break them.

A perfect example is a client I worked with last month. Going through the analytic reports they showed most of their traffic (over 50%) was coming in from Google, with MSN and Ask being around 10% each. However, in the path reports I noticed that 70% of those coming in from MSN and Ask were making sales, whereas only 10% of those from Google were getting to the cart.

Checking the listing for those other two I found that the entry pages were different than those Google were hitting on. Comparing the writing styles I discovered a more subdued style on them. I changed the entry page Google was hitting on to a similar, more subdued style, and sales increased within the week.

You say you want to get juices flowing... well okay. What I want are sales. You are going to learn the craft of excitement, I'm going to craft to the reader, and for that you need tools.

The next thing you do with your article is to put it on other sites, such as posting it in a couple of forums, or submitting it to a blog or two. Then use your Analytics to monitor if you get similar results from those other sites.

From experience, you will probably find that you don't get similar results, you will get drastically different results. The trick then is to figure out why, and that's when you really start becoming a writer on for the web.

Not having those tools working, leaves you with formulas, and formulas sound good; Very impressive. Beef really does taste better than meat.

They don't always work, but you aren't going to know why they don't work if you don't have the experience honed by the tools of the trade.

[glennhefley]

Well, if you are that confident .. YOU make the edits, I'll add them to the pages and post the stats. Then you can say, "I told you so!"

Naw, you are going to do it anyway. I'm going to watch.

I answered your question. Normally I would say something like "you want real web copy, you hire me.", but that boat just sank. I find your proposition much ruder than anything I wrote. I don't need to see your stats.

I have paying clients to write for.

[StuartL]

Seems you may have touched a raw nerve O/E :)

[Lyndoman]

I think there is an insult then educate thing going on. ;)


You make it sound like trial and error are something you can do without.

Not at all, testing is crucial and when I used the word "sure", it was meant as agreement. So I am afraid you are not arguing against what I believed.

It was the only thing I asked because I was underwhelmed by most of the stuff you wrote having already learned it. But it might be useful to others.

I wish I had the time to write more to justify your verbose posting.

But what about Pork?

[dg0896]

I was wondering what the best copywriting courses where out there. Does anyone have "Breakthough Copywriting"? Any other suggestions? Thanks so much.

Jordan

I dont know if there are any so called "best"

[Alis]

Well in my suggestion code entegrition could be done on written documents where the craggle can read where it can be index'ed and where it can also be copy protected .

Writing the article helps you get index'd correct ?
Well take screan shots of the article and then post it at the same spot give properties to comment and also give a diffrent url of the original article that is written at your site but dont give it to public .

So what i mean in this way your written articles are protected this way. Many of clients do this , nothing change's in the seo or the index'ing . Only its protected document against copy writers..